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Interesting eBay transaction - 13 year return privilege? ANOTHER UPDATE

jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 19, 2022 3:57AM in U.S. Coin Forum

In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. I sold the label with the coin. The buyer wanted a guarantee and so I wrote him a note that indicated the he had "unrestricted" return privileges if it was found to "not be genuine". [I really don't remember the details but the guarantee says "genuine" not MS.]

Flash forward 13 years. The buyer sold his collection. His buyer allegedly sent the coin to NGC and it came back Proof 62 (straight grade). He returned it and my buyer sent it back to ANACS where it straight graded Proof 61.

So, he contacted me to request that I buy it back because of my guarantee.

Opinions?

My problem is that I can't even verify if it's the same coin. I changed photo hosts and don't have ebay photos from 13 years ago. I'm suspicious because the coin I sold was obviously cleaned and I can't believe it would have straight graded at either ANACS or NGC much less both. On the other hand, I also can't prove that it's not the same coin. After all, the buyer did keep my note for 13 years

What would you do?

Updated to include pictures sent by my former customer:

You can now see and read my original guarantee. He has included pictures of the coin in its current holder along with a PCGS PR62 and NGC PR61 label from his and his customer's attempts to get it back in an MS holder.

So, I had emailed the buyer and asked about splitting the price difference. He paid $534 in 2009. The coin in the new holder is worth $260 today. I asked if he would sell it back at $400. Essentially, we both lose $140 on the coin. He rejected the offer. His response:

" Hi Joseph, Thanks for the offer. I do appreciate it but... I truthfully do not have any hard feeling toward you. And I really do not mean any of this to be considered disparaging against you. When I bought the coin already broken out of its holder, I knew of the possibility of the label not matching the coin, but I accepted your word and your letter guaranteeing it was the very same coin and that it was a business strike (that is what I understood your guarantee to mean), I believed you then and I still believe you now. The way ANACS worded the description on their packing slip I am suspicious that they realized their old resources allowed them the wrong interpretation of the coin but with more information that time brings they have changed their determination (but would not consider an insurance refund due to it being broken out). I think there are 2 possibilities and the one just mentioned being the most likely. The other possibility is that the coin was not the one originally in the broken out holder. And I am 100% certain I got the same coin back I sent to my previous buyer. As I just said, I don't think this possibility is the case.
It just comes down to what you feel is the right thing for you to do. What ever you decide I am ok with. Either honor your guarantee even within this convoluted situation, or don't because of this convoluted situation. I have way more into this coin than the $534 I paid you for it 13 years ago. I hope you choose to pay me $534 for it, but if not ok and no hard feelings. Thanks again for your consideration."

I HATE THIS!

«134567

Comments

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So allegedly your former coin went from MS details to a Proof? My curiosity says it'd be interesting to examine the coin before pulling the trigger. The other side says no way jay! Let us know what you do. Good luck. Peace Roy

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  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2022 5:10AM

    @MFeld said:
    I have no problem believing that a coin once described as cleaned, later graded 61 and 62 at two different grading companies. However, if I understand you correctly, you guaranteed that the coin was genuine, not that it was a business strike.

    Now, your buyer's telling you that two different grading companies determined that the coin was indeed, genuine. So while I'm big on fairness and doing the right thing, I see no reason to allow a return.

    That is the loophole. But it's been so long that I don't remember whether he was worried that the coin was fake or that it was actually proof. I wrote "genuine" but I really don't know what guarantee I was trying to make.

    It's not impossible for a coin to go from "cleaned" to a straight grade. But I've only ever sold 2 MS 1884 3 cent nickels: an XF45 through Heritage and that one. And I remember that one as being obviously cleaned. I suppose it could have toned or something.

    I don't know.

    In retrospect, I should have put a time limit on the guarantee and/or filed photos of the coin with the guarantee...

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Karma is funny and presents some people with the most interesting problems. I suggest you just forget about it.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MFeld said:
    I have no problem believing that a coin once described as cleaned, later graded 61 and 62 at two different grading companies. However, if I understand you correctly, you guaranteed that the coin was genuine, not that it was a business strike.

    Now, your buyer's telling you that two different grading companies determined that the coin was indeed, genuine. So while I'm big on fairness and doing the right thing, I see no reason to allow a return.

    That is the loophole. But it's been so long that I don't remember whether he was worried that the coin was fake or that it was actually proof. I wrote "genuine" but I really don't know what guarantee I was trying to make.

    It's not impossible for a coin to go from "cleaned" to a straight grade. But I've only ever sold 2 MS 1884 nickels: an XF45 through Heritage and that one. And I remember that one as being obviously cleaned. I suppose it could have toned or something.

    I don't know.

    In retrospect, I should have put a time limit on the guarantee and/or filed photos of the coin with the guarantee...

    Not that it matters in terms of the guarantee - whatever it happened to be - but your first post said "three cent nickel", not "nickel".

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2022 5:11AM

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MFeld said:
    I have no problem believing that a coin once described as cleaned, later graded 61 and 62 at two different grading companies. However, if I understand you correctly, you guaranteed that the coin was genuine, not that it was a business strike.

    Now, your buyer's telling you that two different grading companies determined that the coin was indeed, genuine. So while I'm big on fairness and doing the right thing, I see no reason to allow a return.

    That is the loophole. But it's been so long that I don't remember whether he was worried that the coin was fake or that it was actually proof. I wrote "genuine" but I really don't know what guarantee I was trying to make.

    It's not impossible for a coin to go from "cleaned" to a straight grade. But I've only ever sold 2 MS 1884 nickels: an XF45 through Heritage and that one. And I remember that one as being obviously cleaned. I suppose it could have toned or something.

    I don't know.

    In retrospect, I should have put a time limit on the guarantee and/or filed photos of the coin with the guarantee...

    Not that it matters in terms of the guarantee - whatever it happened to be - but your first post said "three cent nickel", not "nickel".

    Sorry, it is a 3 cent nickel. Corrected.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You were relying on the judgment on Anacs to both grade and sell the coin, not on your own research. And you sold it on that basis, so the contract was based on that not some open ended guarantee subject to subsequent grading company certifications.

  • FranklinHalfAddictFranklinHalfAddict Posts: 650 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s been 13 years. Tell ‘em to pound sand.

    …or buy it back for current PR62 wholesale, only issuing refund once coin is received.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FranklinHalfAddict said:
    It’s been 13 years. Tell ‘em to pound sand.

    …or buy it back for current PR62 wholesale, only issuing refund once coin is received.

    The length of time should be pretty much, if not completely irrelevant, if the terms of the guarantee don't preclude it. The problem is that @jmlanzaf doesn't know precisely what the guarantee was or that it's the same coin.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @FranklinHalfAddict said:
    It’s been 13 years. Tell ‘em to pound sand.

    …or buy it back for current PR62 wholesale, only issuing refund once coin is received.

    The length of time should be pretty much, if not completely irrelevant, if the terms of the guarantee don't preclude it. The problem is that @jmlanzaf doesn't know precisely what the guarantee was or that it's the same coin.

    The other oddity is that he didn't contact me through ebay or even my ebay email address, which is on the "guarantee". He contacted me through my university email which isn't connected to anything. He must have Googled my name.

  • vulcanizevulcanize Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I had recd. a few fake Trade dollars in the raw some years ago and contacted the sellers after ANACS returned them mentioning the same.
    Took them to the Baltimore show this past April and got expert opinions from other graders too and all of them confirmed that they were very well made fakes.
    Upon contacting the sellers on eBay, one of them with a B&M set up straight away offered to refund it if I sent it in with documentation and another seller told me to contact eBay support.
    The other two sellers did not even respond.
    eBay support clearly washed their hands off and told me that it is out of the refund time frame and issue needed to be taken up with the sellers one-on-one.

    Do I write it off and chalk it up to tuition fees for learning the hard way. Perhaps may just do that.

    So yeah, came to say that it is totally your call to entertain this particular request or not because mentioned coin is NOT a fake meaning there is no legal ramifications from the authorities for that aspect.

    Cheers.

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry, even though I usually say refund and be released from obligations, in this instance there is NO way I would refund a sale after 13 years for the following reasons.
    1) I guaranteed authenticity...buyer had two different respected agencies say the coin was genuine.
    2) IRS requires records kept for 7 years and I would no longer have records of the sale nor photos to compare
    If this was $100 I would probably just refund and block, but not for this amount.
    Good luck with whatever your decision is. Can you block them from your University Email? If so, I would block him from all contact along with my answer.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @FranklinHalfAddict said:
    It’s been 13 years. Tell ‘em to pound sand.

    …or buy it back for current PR62 wholesale, only issuing refund once coin is received.

    The length of time should be pretty much, if not completely irrelevant, if the terms of the guarantee don't preclude it. The problem is that @jmlanzaf doesn't know precisely what the guarantee was or that it's the same coin.

    The other oddity is that he didn't contact me through ebay or even my ebay email address, which is on the "guarantee". He contacted me through my university email which isn't connected to anything. He must have Googled my name.

    See, you're already being stalked, at this point, you're a goner if you just give the money back, you gotta set a trap and get him first if you want to survive this.

  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,591 ✭✭✭✭✭

    issue is that a guarantee comes with many risks both legal and moral seems you forgot to research those first before making this guarantee and now it's come back to bite you and since you wrote it now you are really in a grey area you do not want to be in cause he has proof of your guarantee and let's just say give the money back and end this horror show before it becomes really bad

  • MetroDMetroD Posts: 1,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    That is the loophole. But it's been so long that I don't remember whether he was worried that the coin was fake or that it was actually proof. I wrote "genuine" but I really don't know what guarantee I was trying to make.
    [...]

    I cannot speak to the 'stalking' concern, but I will share what I think is fair.

    If you cannot remember the specifics, which is understandable, I humbly suggest that you abide by the language of the written guarantee.

    You agreed to allow a return if the coin was found to "not be genuine". To the best of my knowledge, nothing was stated about misattribution (i.e., MS vs. PR).

    Per the HA "glossary", a counterfeit coin is not genuine.

    Source: https://coins.ha.com/c/ref/glossary.zx?ic=Tab-Resources-glossary-040814-interior

    Two TPGs have confirmed that the subject coin is genuine. In other words, the coin is not a counterfeit. No return.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @silverpop said:
    issue is that a guarantee comes with many risks both legal and moral seems you forgot to research those first before making this guarantee and now it's come back to bite you and since you wrote it now you are really in a grey area you do not want to be in cause he has proof of your guarantee and let's just say give the money back and end this horror show before it becomes really bad

    I'm well aware of the legal and moral risks. That is not the issue.

    The guarantee was written rather carelessly by me...or brilliantly. Lol. I specified "genuine". His issue now is the price difference between MS and Proof which is not in the guarantee UNLESS we interpret "genuine" to mean "genuine proof ".

    There really is no legal risk here. It's moral.

  • FranklinHalfAddictFranklinHalfAddict Posts: 650 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Was it a legitimate written contract that any reasonable lawyer would consider legally binding or was it a hand written thing on notebook paper?
    Either way, the original buyer has been fine with the coin for 13 years and I think it’s absolutely insane they’d be asking for a refund at this point.
    It’s not like we’re talking thousands of dollars here. It was a few hundred… THIRTEEN YEARS AGO!!

  • FranklinHalfAddictFranklinHalfAddict Posts: 650 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @FranklinHalfAddict said:
    It’s been 13 years. Tell ‘em to pound sand.

    …or buy it back for current PR62 wholesale, only issuing refund once coin is received.

    The length of time should be pretty much, if not completely irrelevant, if the terms of the guarantee don't preclude it. The problem is that @jmlanzaf doesn't know precisely what the guarantee was or that it's the same coin.

    So 200 years from now it would be reasonable for the buyer’s descendent to go after the seller’s?

  • spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @silverpop said:
    issue is that a guarantee comes with many risks both legal and moral seems you forgot to research those first before making this guarantee and now it's come back to bite you and since you wrote it now you are really in a grey area you do not want to be in cause he has proof of your guarantee and let's just say give the money back and end this horror show before it becomes really bad

    I'm well aware of the legal and moral risks. That is not the issue.

    The guarantee was written rather carelessly by me...or brilliantly. Lol. I specified "genuine". His issue now is the price difference between MS and Proof which is not in the guarantee UNLESS we interpret "genuine" to mean "genuine proof ".

    There really is no legal risk here. It's moral.

    How moral is it for the buyer to take a coin, guaranteed authentic, to two different graders who authenticated it, and then to come back because it graded different than what he wanted? You never guaranteed the grade... And regardless it's 13 years later.

    You have no moral obligation to do anything. Period.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,715 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FranklinHalfAddict said:

    @MFeld said:

    @FranklinHalfAddict said:
    It’s been 13 years. Tell ‘em to pound sand.

    …or buy it back for current PR62 wholesale, only issuing refund once coin is received.

    The length of time should be pretty much, if not completely irrelevant, if the terms of the guarantee don't preclude it. The problem is that @jmlanzaf doesn't know precisely what the guarantee was or that it's the same coin.

    So 200 years from now it would be reasonable for the buyer’s descendent to go after the seller’s?

    Have you heard about the recent trend of decedents going after slavery reparations? Yes different situations I realize but it's not out of the realm of possibility for a buyer's descendent to pursue legal recourse when a guarantee was given, especially in such a litigious society as today. Overall it sounds like dealer tuition.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FranklinHalfAddict said:
    Was it a legitimate written contract that any reasonable lawyer would consider legally binding or was it a hand written thing on notebook paper?
    Either way, the original buyer has been fine with the coin for 13 years and I think it’s absolutely insane they’d be asking for a refund at this point.
    It’s not like we’re talking thousands of dollars here. It was a few hundred… THIRTEEN YEARS AGO!!

    @spyglassdesign said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @silverpop said:
    issue is that a guarantee comes with many risks both legal and moral seems you forgot to research those first before making this guarantee and now it's come back to bite you and since you wrote it now you are really in a grey area you do not want to be in cause he has proof of your guarantee and let's just say give the money back and end this horror show before it becomes really bad

    I'm well aware of the legal and moral risks. That is not the issue.

    The guarantee was written rather carelessly by me...or brilliantly. Lol. I specified "genuine". His issue now is the price difference between MS and Proof which is not in the guarantee UNLESS we interpret "genuine" to mean "genuine proof ".

    There really is no legal risk here. It's moral.

    How moral is it for the buyer to take a coin, guaranteed authentic, to two different graders who authenticated it, and then to come back because it graded different than what he wanted? You never guaranteed the grade... And regardless it's 13 years later.

    You have no moral obligation to do anything. Period.

    I posted the "guarantee" in the original listing as an update.

    It's really more about the moral rather than the legal.

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PS 196 bucks in PCGS fees, wtaf. Did he walk it through :lol:

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DelawareDoons said:
    LOL the guy wants 900 bucks from ya?

    No, just the original $534 purchase price.

    I emailed him and asked him if we could split the difference.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2022 11:51AM

    If this ended up in a court of law, the contract would come into play. I don't know why someone would offer an open ended contract unless they were desperate to sell something with no fear of an issue later on. Why didn't you send it back to Anacs to get it back into the broken holder?

    An argument could be made that since it was listed on ebay as an MS not a PR, and a certification label was included as part of the contract but with no proof of connecting to the actual coin, and you have the problem with the coin later straight grading when Anacs called it cleaned, so evidence would suggest there was no association between the holder broken out and the coin. Current Greysheet is around $4K for a base high AU/MS 1884 coin while the PR issue is only worth a couple hundred dollars. $4000 vs. $200! Your reputation was staked on it being an MS. So in a court of law the fact that you sold a coin worth a couple hundred for thousands becomes the central issue offering a perpetual guarantee on that. I don't know what the statute of limitations are on contracts like that, which would be the only hindrance to forcing the terms of the contract. Of course the customer has to prove it is the coin he bought the burden is on him to do that.

    I just looked at the additional information. Why did the guy spend all that money on the grading fees? Economy and regular service is not that much. At least it is indication that he really thought it was an MS not a PR and is not trying to pull off an explicit fraud. More information is needed with evidence for his claim.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks like PCGS and NGC agree with ANACS that the coin is genuine.

  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So you mean that you guaranteed that the coin was genuine unc. and the buyer thought it was a proof but bought it off you guarantee. If that was the understanding between the two of you then yes refund him. Otherwise no refund.

  • If you can get more out of it the way it's graded than what you sold it for let him send it along with the original label for you to inspect. Then refund his purchase price and resell the coin. If it's worth less than you sold it for due to market and time fluctuations since the coin is genuine make him an offer which he can accept or refuse. I think that would be a good way to solve the problem. You might remind him he didn't purchase the item from Costco and you don't make their kind of guarantee. :-)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thebigeng said:
    So you mean that you guaranteed that the coin was genuine unc. and the buyer thought it was a proof but bought it off you guarantee. If that was the understanding between the two of you then yes refund him. Otherwise no refund.

    No. I sold him a coin that was (according to ANACS) UNC cleaned. The buyer bought it assuming it was UNC cleaned. I guaranteed "genuine" but I don't recall whether that was because he was worried that the coin was fake or whether he thought the coin might be proof. 13 years later, he sold it as an UNC to someone who sent it to PCGS to find out they called it a straight PRoof. His customer returned it to him and then he sent it to NGC and ANACS, both of whom said Proof. He sent ANACS the original label, but they said there was (of course) no guarantee once the coin was removed from the holder.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    If this ended up in a court of law, the contract would come into play. I don't know why someone would offer an open ended contract unless they were desperate to sell something with no fear of an issue later on. Why didn't you send it back to Anacs to get it back into the broken holder?

    An argument could be made that since it was listed on ebay as an MS not a PR, and a certification label was included as part of the contract but with no proof of connecting to the actual coin, and you have the problem with the coin later straight grading when Anacs called it cleaned (on one of the toughest coins to grade), so evidence would suggest there was no association between the holder broken out and the coin. Current Greysheet is around $4K for a base high AU/MS 1884 coin while the PR issue is only worth a couple hundred dollars. $4000 vs. $200! Your reputation was staked on it being an MS. So in a court of law the fact that you sold a coin worth a couple hundred for thousands becomes the central issue offering a perpetual guarantee on that. I don't know what the statute of limitations are on contracts like that, which would be the only hindrance to forcing the terms of the contract. Of course the customer has to prove it is the coin he bought the burden is on him to do that.

    One correction: the coin was sold for $534 not "thousands".

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2022 9:30AM

    Hey...I don't see the original ANACS label in his photos. :|

    Does he still have it?

    This sounds like the all-time biggest Hail Mary pass on his part. He's probably just trying to see how far you'll bend by playing on your conscience.

    He kept getting it reslabbed even after he knew what it was. :/

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @P0CKETCHANGE said:
    Here’s a better look at the coin itself (from when it was trueviewed at pcgs).

    ANACS graded that MS60 details, cleaned?

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