It is unfortunate that you didn't put a timeline or other note on the guarantee, but how could you have even guessed that this would happen this long after. It is extremely strange that it would be repeatedly sent to be graded and be so different, so unless they have the ad and photos, being a bit skeptical is reasonable. Guarantees are not normally transferable to another person unless it is expressly written. I think you are safe to say that. Any requirement via the selling site would have to be between you and the original buyer, and they do have timelines for appeal as well. You did your due diligence at the time. Asking you to pay for the coin and the two assessments so long after the fact given your guarantee seems unreasonable.
Since it was in an Anacs Blue holder my understanding it must have been in their white slab and sent back in where they put them in the Blue holder not the Gold holder that has grade guarantees. I'd question why that was done also whether Anacs has any records on the coin. The Blue holder only has an authenticity guarantee, where presumably they would be on the hook if they called a lower value PR coin an MS. According to the buyer it is not a "real" MS but a PR. Also Track and Price may have records on old transactions which for some dumb reason ebay deletes so you can't retrieve them.
@jmlanzaf said:
You can also see why ANACS (and I) originally called it MS. Not well struck and really sloppy denticles.
PCGS and NGC graded these as proofs, less detail (look at the curls at the back of the neck above the "4" in the date) than the MS/PR in question in this thread.
Give him his refund of $74.67, but only after you have the coin in your hands, and then sell it on Ebay for $150. Your buyer is an idiot for not selling it on Ebay himself.
…or buy it back for current PR62 wholesale, only issuing refund once coin is received.
The length of time should be pretty much, if not completely irrelevant, if the terms of the guarantee don't preclude it. The problem is that @jmlanzaf doesn't know precisely what the guarantee was or that it's the same coin.
The other oddity is that he didn't contact me through ebay or even my ebay email address, which is on the "guarantee". He contacted me through my university email which isn't connected to anything. He must have Googled my name.
Depending on your financial situation, I'd say refunding him is a reasonable consideration. From what you've shared, this guy has your mailing address (at least, an old one), your name, your work affiliation. He sounds like the kind of person who would hop on an intercontinental flight to kill someone over a $10 grudge.
@JBK said:
Hey...I don't see the original ANACS label in his photos.
Does he still have it?
This sounds like the all-time biggest Hail Mary pass on his part. He's probably just trying to see how far you'll bend by playing on your conscience.
He kept getting it reslabbed even after he knew what it was.
I tried adding it to the original post but it kept refusing the change. Yes, he still has it. LOL
Enjoyed the LOL at the end!
Great thread. Your split offer was very fair. You have no legal obligation. I would simply buy it back and be done. Seems an important coin to buyer generating a letter/guarantee kept 13 years.
As previously stated, you don't have to do anything here. But if you are questioning the moral move here and want to have a clear conscious and sleep at night then you might as well give him his $534 back, take the coin and sell it for $200 and write off that $300 loss. It comes down to your conscious about your selling a proof coin as a MS coin when the value is so different between them. Only you can make this decision, I will sleep alright no matter which way you choose.
@jmlanzaf said:
You can also see why ANACS (and I) originally called it MS. Not well struck and really sloppy denticles.
PCGS and NGC graded these as proofs, less detail (look at the curls at the back of the neck above the "4" in the date) than the MS/PR in question in this thread.
@rhedden said:
Give him his refund of $74.67, but only after you have the coin in your hands, and then sell it on Ebay for $150. Your buyer is an idiot for not selling it on Ebay himself.
I'm not sure where those numbers came from. He wants $534 and they sell for about $260
@rhedden said:
Give him his refund of $74.67, but only after you have the coin in your hands, and then sell it on Ebay for $150. Your buyer is an idiot for not selling it on Ebay himself.
I'm not sure where those numbers came from. He wants $534 and they sell for about $260
Your offer of half is more than reasonable. It puts him close to the value of what he paid for it. The repeated slabbings are on him.
If he turns down your offer or tries to negotiate I'd just tell him goodbye.
You should not have provided a personal guarantee on a slabbed coin you sold , but you did.
He should not have taken it out of the ANACS slab and voided their warranty, but he did.
Your offer to split the difference with him seems totally just to me.
@CommemDude said:
You should not have provided a personal guarantee on a slabbed coin you sold , but you did.
He should not have taken it out of the ANACS slab and voided their warranty, but he did.
Your offer to split the difference with him seems totally just to me.
It was broken out of the Anacs holder prior to sale, the question is why? Timeliness is essential on claims.
Also the listing, if someone could retrieve it would be relevant: ie "1884 MS60 details 3 cn": "selling this rare 1884 3cn broken out of an Anacs blue slab, guaranteed". The guarantee would be that the broken slab certification pertains to the coin ie an MS not PR coin.
@CommemDude said: You should not have provided a personal guarantee on a slabbed coin you sold , but you did.
He should not have taken it out of the ANACS slab and voided their warranty, but he did.
Your offer to split the difference with him seems totally just to me.
If I understand the OP correctly, the coin changed hands after it was removed from the ANACS slab.
@jmlanzaf said:
In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. [...]
I'm sorry but having looked at the True View, how does ANACS not recognize that coin is not a business strike piece?
But I digress.
Bottom line for me is that you guaranteed it as GENUINE. And it is. So your one and only guarantee remains satisfied. You didn't guarantee that it was a business strike, or that anyone else would agree with the grade, or that the guy would make money when he sold it. So outside of the authenticity guarantee, which has been confirmed, this is an as-is sale otherwise, made based upon your good faith interpretation of the ANACS label that came with the coin.
Add in the fact that it's 13 years down the line? Oh heck no.
Are you supposed to be a free approval service for 13 years? No way.
And do you really want this guy as a customer (which by the way he won't be anyway)?
You should have no guilt or feeling of obligation here. None. I'd tell him sorry but no refund for the reasons above.
@PerryHall said:
I'm a bit confused here. Normally a guarantee involves refunding the original purchase price. If this coin went from a details grade to a straight graded Proof, why not honor your guarantee and refund his original purchase price once he returns to coin to you?
@conrad99 said:
I like the coin. Is it okay to place a bid on it now, right here in the thread?
Take it to the BST. Lol
Actually, that coin looks better than I remember it... assuming it's the same coin. It might have just toned up a bit. Or he mixed it up with his proof.
@jmlanzaf said:
I offered to settle at $400 ($534 purchase price. $260ish value.) He has not yet responded.
That's way more than you should have. But to each his own. If he doesn't accept then tell him to kick sand. You met your end of the bargain in that you promised it was genuine, and he proved it at least twice.
You literally do not owe him anything, and personally, I think you were foolish to offer to buy it back (but I understand the reasoning). There is no legal or moral reason to do so.
@jmlanzaf said:
In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. I sold the label with the coin. The buyer wanted a guarantee and so I wrote him a note that indicated the he had "unrestricted" return privileges if it was found to "not be genuine". [I really don't remember the details but the guarantee says "genuine" not MS.]
If you only guaranteed the authenticity of the coin, what the problem? Is he now claiming that the coin you sold him is not authentic or is he now claiming that you guaranteed the grade? I'm not sure what the problem is here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@thebigeng said:
Okay, @jmlanzaf I personally would then refund then. Only because you put it in writing and it’s good coin karma for you!
Did you read what he put in writing? He guaranteed only that the coin was genuine, which no one has questioned. Why should he pay the buyer anything? If your answer is “good coin karma”, why don’t you send the buyer a check and enjoy some great coin karma?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jmlanzaf said:
In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. I sold the label with the coin. The buyer wanted a guarantee and so I wrote him a note that indicated the he had "unrestricted" return privileges if it was found to "not be genuine". [I really don't remember the details but the guarantee says "genuine" not MS.]
If you only guaranteed the authenticity of the coin, what the problem? Is he now claiming that the coin you sold him is not authentic or is he now claiming that you guaranteed the grade? I'm not sure what the problem is here.
He's reading the guarantee as "genuine MS" as opposed to just "genuine". It's not a huge problem, just a mild moral conundrum.
@jmlanzaf said:
In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. I sold the label with the coin. The buyer wanted a guarantee and so I wrote him a note that indicated the he had "unrestricted" return privileges if it was found to "not be genuine". [I really don't remember the details but the guarantee says "genuine" not MS.]
If you only guaranteed the authenticity of the coin, what the problem? Is he now claiming that the coin you sold him is not authentic or is he now claiming that you guaranteed the grade? I'm not sure what the problem is here.
He's reading the guarantee as "genuine proof" as opposed to just "genuine". It's not a huge problem, just a mild moral conundrum.
According to your posts, the coin has been deemed genuine and a Proof. Whether the guarantee was understood to indicate “genuine” or “genuine proof”, it has been fulfilled. And I guarantee it.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It does not seem that the original intent of the guarantee was to cover the situation as it has played out here. Outside of the holder, authenticity would have been the primary concern. MS vs. PF likely wasn’t even considered by either party at the time.
Due to the ambiguous nature of the guarantee, the buyer is taking advantage of the situation.
There's your quintessential 3 cent nickel conundrum. Proof mint state proof mint state it will go like the 31 trillionth digit of pi. I would tell him you keep an approx. guarantee of one year, then make a judgement on his response.
Interesting thread... Although the original guarantee was "indefinite" (so 13 years falls into this timeframe), it was only that the coin was "genuine"... which ANACS and NGC have determined to be true. The original guarantee stated nothing about a grade... circulated, MS, or PF. Looks like the original (or subsequent... I'm confused) buyer decided there's enough of a price gap between an MS and a PF that they want money... yours!
FWIW... I'm with the "Pound Sand" contingent in this case...
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
Let me add my opinion to the pile, for what it's worth. You are in no way obligated to allow the return, since you guaranteed only that the coin is genuine, and it is.
@jmlanzaf said:
In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. I sold the label with the coin. The buyer wanted a guarantee and so I wrote him a note that indicated the he had "unrestricted" return privileges if it was found to "not be genuine". [I really don't remember the details but the guarantee says "genuine" not MS.]
If you only guaranteed the authenticity of the coin, what the problem? Is he now claiming that the coin you sold him is not authentic or is he now claiming that you guaranteed the grade? I'm not sure what the problem is here.
He's reading the guarantee as "genuine proof" as opposed to just "genuine". It's not a huge problem, just a mild moral conundrum.
According to your posts, the coin has been deemed genuine and a Proof. Whether the guarantee was understood to indicate “genuine” or “genuine proof”, it has been fulfilled. And I guarantee it.😉
Comments
I tried adding it to the original post but it kept refusing the change. Yes, he still has it. LOL
Thanks. Excellent addition to this thread.
You can see why it appears cleaned to me still, although maybe it has toned up a bit, I don't remember.
You can also see why ANACS (and I) originally called it MS. Not well struck and really sloppy denticles.
It is unfortunate that you didn't put a timeline or other note on the guarantee, but how could you have even guessed that this would happen this long after. It is extremely strange that it would be repeatedly sent to be graded and be so different, so unless they have the ad and photos, being a bit skeptical is reasonable. Guarantees are not normally transferable to another person unless it is expressly written. I think you are safe to say that. Any requirement via the selling site would have to be between you and the original buyer, and they do have timelines for appeal as well. You did your due diligence at the time. Asking you to pay for the coin and the two assessments so long after the fact given your guarantee seems unreasonable.
Since it was in an Anacs Blue holder my understanding it must have been in their white slab and sent back in where they put them in the Blue holder not the Gold holder that has grade guarantees. I'd question why that was done also whether Anacs has any records on the coin. The Blue holder only has an authenticity guarantee, where presumably they would be on the hook if they called a lower value PR coin an MS. According to the buyer it is not a "real" MS but a PR. Also Track and Price may have records on old transactions which for some dumb reason ebay deletes so you can't retrieve them.
PCGS and NGC graded these as proofs, less detail (look at the curls at the back of the neck above the "4" in the date) than the MS/PR in question in this thread.
Give him his refund of $74.67, but only after you have the coin in your hands, and then sell it on Ebay for $150. Your buyer is an idiot for not selling it on Ebay himself.
Depending on your financial situation, I'd say refunding him is a reasonable consideration. From what you've shared, this guy has your mailing address (at least, an old one), your name, your work affiliation. He sounds like the kind of person who would hop on an intercontinental flight to kill someone over a $10 grudge.
Enjoyed the LOL at the end!
Great thread. Your split offer was very fair. You have no legal obligation. I would simply buy it back and be done. Seems an important coin to buyer generating a letter/guarantee kept 13 years.
Good on you.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
As previously stated, you don't have to do anything here. But if you are questioning the moral move here and want to have a clear conscious and sleep at night then you might as well give him his $534 back, take the coin and sell it for $200 and write off that $300 loss. It comes down to your conscious about your selling a proof coin as a MS coin when the value is so different between them. Only you can make this decision, I will sleep alright no matter which way you choose.
As an eBay seller who tries to provide excellent service - I would ignore this request. Your buyer has big brass ones.
Based on the style of labels... any guess as to year they were graded? (Especially since it was graded multiple times)
To keep it short... offer to buy the coin in it's current holder at a reasonable price.
It was already a problem coin.
His carrying cost is not your problem.
I don't see where you made a promise as to grade or proof or MS.
I think you have lived up to the spirit if not the wording of the guarantee.
Some people have no shame.
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Send your buyer a link to this thread, if they realize how most are viewing this matter they may just keep the coin.
Okay, @jmlanzaf I personally would then refund then. Only because you put it in writing and it’s good coin karma for you!
No question here. Your guarantee said "if the coin is found not to be genuine". The coin is genuine. End of discussion.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Yes, but at least the denticles are square.
I'm not sure where those numbers came from. He wants $534 and they sell for about $260
Your offer of half is more than reasonable. It puts him close to the value of what he paid for it. The repeated slabbings are on him.
If he turns down your offer or tries to negotiate I'd just tell him goodbye.
The buyer had use & enjoyment so they should be obligated for some type of rent/mileage, a full refund is not fair to you as a seller.
Paging @JudgeJudy
Given the situation, an extremely generous offer.
You, sir, are 'going above and beyond' in order to do the 'right/moral' thing.
I sincerely hope that the buyer realizes how gracious you are being, and immediately accepts your offer.
You should not have provided a personal guarantee on a slabbed coin you sold , but you did.
He should not have taken it out of the ANACS slab and voided their warranty, but he did.
Your offer to split the difference with him seems totally just to me.
Commems and Early Type
It was broken out of the Anacs holder prior to sale, the question is why? Timeliness is essential on claims.
Also the listing, if someone could retrieve it would be relevant: ie "1884 MS60 details 3 cn": "selling this rare 1884 3cn broken out of an Anacs blue slab, guaranteed". The guarantee would be that the broken slab certification pertains to the coin ie an MS not PR coin.
If I understand the OP correctly, the coin changed hands after it was removed from the ANACS slab.
I'm sorry but having looked at the True View, how does ANACS not recognize that coin is not a business strike piece?
But I digress.
Bottom line for me is that you guaranteed it as GENUINE. And it is. So your one and only guarantee remains satisfied. You didn't guarantee that it was a business strike, or that anyone else would agree with the grade, or that the guy would make money when he sold it. So outside of the authenticity guarantee, which has been confirmed, this is an as-is sale otherwise, made based upon your good faith interpretation of the ANACS label that came with the coin.
Add in the fact that it's 13 years down the line? Oh heck no.
Are you supposed to be a free approval service for 13 years? No way.
And do you really want this guy as a customer (which by the way he won't be anyway)?
You should have no guilt or feeling of obligation here. None. I'd tell him sorry but no refund for the reasons above.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
You should have told him the person that gave him the buy-back guarantee 13 years ago...
You could also tell him to return the unused portion of the product and you'll gladly refund the unused portion of his money...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Biggest part for me is the 13 years lol. And the coin is not in the original holder.
@jmlanzaf Gotta give you 2 thumbs up for your integrity and customer service.
I like the coin. Is it okay to place a bid on it now, right here in the thread?
So, the coin is verified to be genuine, it was passed on to another person, and it's been cracked out? Tell him to kick rocks.
That's what he had requested.
Yes. If it's the same coin. But that was 15 years ago.
Take it to the BST. Lol
Actually, that coin looks better than I remember it... assuming it's the same coin. It might have just toned up a bit. Or he mixed it up with his proof.
I offered to settle at $400 ($534 purchase price. $260ish value.) He has not yet responded.
With or without return of the coin?
That's way more than you should have. But to each his own. If he doesn't accept then tell him to kick sand. You met your end of the bargain in that you promised it was genuine, and he proved it at least twice.
You literally do not owe him anything, and personally, I think you were foolish to offer to buy it back (but I understand the reasoning). There is no legal or moral reason to do so.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
It's a point of honor for some to try and do right by everyone, even if it hurts. So I commend the OP for wrestling with the issue.
If you only guaranteed the authenticity of the coin, what the problem? Is he now claiming that the coin you sold him is not authentic or is he now claiming that you guaranteed the grade? I'm not sure what the problem is here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Did you read what he put in writing? He guaranteed only that the coin was genuine, which no one has questioned. Why should he pay the buyer anything? If your answer is “good coin karma”, why don’t you send the buyer a check and enjoy some great coin karma?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Is this where I post my mailing address?
With return. The multiple submissions are on him.
He's reading the guarantee as "genuine MS" as opposed to just "genuine". It's not a huge problem, just a mild moral conundrum.
According to your posts, the coin has been deemed genuine and a Proof. Whether the guarantee was understood to indicate “genuine” or “genuine proof”, it has been fulfilled. And I guarantee it.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It does not seem that the original intent of the guarantee was to cover the situation as it has played out here. Outside of the holder, authenticity would have been the primary concern. MS vs. PF likely wasn’t even considered by either party at the time.
Due to the ambiguous nature of the guarantee, the buyer is taking advantage of the situation.
Interesting thread!
I can't even find a purchase I made on eBay 1 year ago. How does someone initiate a return for a 10+ year old purchase?
There's your quintessential 3 cent nickel conundrum. Proof mint state proof mint state it will go like the 31 trillionth digit of pi. I would tell him you keep an approx. guarantee of one year, then make a judgement on his response.
Interesting thread... Although the original guarantee was "indefinite" (so 13 years falls into this timeframe), it was only that the coin was "genuine"... which ANACS and NGC have determined to be true. The original guarantee stated nothing about a grade... circulated, MS, or PF. Looks like the original (or subsequent... I'm confused) buyer decided there's enough of a price gap between an MS and a PF that they want money... yours!
FWIW... I'm with the "Pound Sand" contingent in this case...
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@jmlanzaf if you are ever selling something I want to buy, I wouldn’t hesitate for one second.
To even consider a refund in this situation is beyond any expectation. The buyer here should be ashamed of themselves.
Let me add my opinion to the pile, for what it's worth. You are in no way obligated to allow the return, since you guaranteed only that the coin is genuine, and it is.
I need you as a full time proof reader. Lol