Somebody mentioned the trip back ANACS... this has also troubled me.
Hard lessons learned...
1) Unless educational by studying PUP's or condition, for example, I never try to take on "problem" coins.... certainly not $500
2) I always try to know more than the dealer.
3) I study the series I am purchasing in detail.
4) Cherry's have a way of becoming sour grapes.
5) All sales are final
6) When in doubt buy slabbed
7) Buyer beware
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
As MFeld said, there is no need to retract the offer as it has been rejected.
Yes. I understand that. But in his rejection the buyer instead asked for a decision between a full refund or none at all, and it seems that JMLanzaf is agonizing over that choice.
As a matter of principle, retracting the offer is a way to establish a position as well as bring finality to the matter.
It's just my opinion, but I have become disillusioned by the buyer's actions.
Not to split hairs but the coin IS genuine and even he believes it is the same coin that ANACS called MS 13 years ago. That was the only guarantee that I made... although I may end up buying the coin back just because I am uncomfortable with the whole situation.
If you do that, this means that the extended, not so subtle and totally undeserved and unwarranted guilt trip laid on you by him was successful and you apparently place no value on your time.
He's had this coin for OVER A DECADE... let that sink in for a minute.
IF he had come to you in, say, a month with this same info... maybe I'd consider it if he was a really good customer.
This is 13 years later for god's sake!
You amazingly even offered him $400 after that 13 years and that's still not good enough for him...
Why are you agonizing over this? Seriously, I'd like to know.
You did nothing wrong, your authenticity guarantee still stands and is obviously now moot as multiple TPGS have confirmed this.
You have zero obligation, legal, moral or otherwise. He rejected your unbelievably fair compromise offer and gave you an ultimatum of either refund all or none.
The correct response to said ultimatum is painfully obvious.
Shame on him for having the stones to start all this, but shame on you if you just roll over and cave in.
One more thought to add here recognizing that there seems to be (near) unanimous agreement that the buyer shouldn't be refunded. I've known @MFeld for a long time and have run many business ethics questions his way. He gives great advice (at a great price!) and heavily errs on the side of going above and beyond to ensure there's no way your integrity could be questioned. Much as I agree with the general population here, that Mark is stating in no uncertain terms you should offer no refund and move on is pretty telling... you need one heck of a case in your favor to get that kind of a reply. This isn't a decision I'd sweat, or one that would keep me up at all when I go to sleep.
Not to split hairs but the coin IS genuine and even he believes it is the same coin that ANACS called MS 13 years ago. That was the only guarantee that I made... although I may end up buying the coin back just because I am uncomfortable with the whole situation.
If you do that, this means that the extended, not so subtle and totally undeserved and unwarranted guilt trip laid on you by him was successful and you apparently place no value on your time.
He's had this coin for OVER A DECADE... let that sink in for a minute.
IF he had come to you in, say, a month with this same info... maybe I'd consider it if he was a really good customer.
This is 13 years later for god's sake!
You amazingly even offered him $400 after that 13 years and that's still not good enough for him...
Why are you agonizing over this? Seriously, I'd like to know.
You did nothing wrong, your authenticity guarantee still stands and is obviously now moot as multiple TPGS have confirmed this.
You have zero obligation, legal, moral or otherwise. He rejected your unbelievably fair compromise offer and gave you an ultimatum of either refund all or none.
The correct response to said ultimatum is painfully obvious.
Shame on him for having the stones to start all this, but shame on you if you just roll over and cave in.
I'm only agonizing over it because i did write a poorly worded guarantee. There are certainly many reasons to consider the terms met including his sale of the item and 13 year ownership of it.
If I recall correctly, the coin was a consignment from a dealer friend who has since passed away. I bet he's laughing at me from the Great Beyond.
Surprisingly common mixup on the late proof 3 cent nickels. I have heard of this (not a 13 year guarantee , lol) particular incident happening at least 4 different times. Someone sells an UNC details coin that rare in business strike that’s actually a proof. ANACS differentiates between their proof details and UNC details but NGC & PCGS just slaps on UNC details on business and proof coins.
@bignubnumismatics1 said:
Surprisingly common mixup on the late proof 3 cent nickels. I have heard of this (not a 13 year guarantee , lol) particular incident happening at least 4 different times. Someone sells an UNC details coin that rare in business strike that’s actually a proof. ANACS differentiates between their proof details and UNC details but NGC & PCGS just slaps on UNC details on business and proof coins.
That’s incorrect about NGC and PCGS. Both differentiate between business strikes and Proofs, when assigning details grades
.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@PerryHall said:
I'm a bit confused here. Normally a guarantee involves refunding the original purchase price. If this coin went from a details grade to a straight graded Proof, why not honor your guarantee and refund his original purchase price once he returns to coin to you?
1884 MS is much more expensive than a proof. He says - I don't know- that he paid $534. A proof 61/62 is around a $260 to $300 coin.
It's not a ton of money. But it's the principle... both ways.
With all due respect, you really shouldn't give him anything. What everyone seems to be missing, given the huge disparity in value between MS and PR, is that your buyer's buyer might have switched the coin and is trying to pull a fast one, since your buyer undoubtedly sold the coin as MS in 2022 for thousands, not hundreds!
While it's clear you want to do the right thing, given the length of time and the fact that you have no way to know that the coin you sold is the coin that was returned to your original buyer, there is no way your guarantee can still be valid, no matter what "genuine" means here. JMHO.
IMO, I’d return and refund. The dollar amount involved is not enough to compensate for the time you will have to devote to this guy if you extend this issue.
@heavymetal said:
IMO, I’d return and refund. The dollar amount involved is not enough to compensate for the time you will have to devote to this guy if you extend this issue.
He doesn't have to devote any time to it. Just one final email.
"Dear XXXX:
Despite the fact that I am under no obligation whatsoever to accept a return 13 years after the fact and that the coin has been certified genuine by more than one TPG, thereby confirming my guarantee of authenticity, which was the one and only guarantee offered with this coin, I still chose to make a fair offer of $400 for the piece in one final attempt to make you happy. Since you have summarily rejected the offer, I now consider the matter closed. Enjoy the coin. Good luck in your future endeavors."
@NJCoin said:
What everyone seems to be missing, given the huge disparity in value between MS and PR, is that your buyer's buyer might have switched the coin and is trying to pull a fast one...
I think this avenue deserves a little more attention. @jmlanzaf said "I'm suspicious because the coin I sold was obviously cleaned and I can't believe it would have straight graded at either ANACS or NGC much less both." And now, it's been straight graded at PCGS, too. Here's the trueview posted earlier:
Does that look "obviously cleaned"? Would PCGS make the effort to hide any cleaning in the trueview? Does it seem likely an obviously cleaned coin would straight grade three times, at three different TPGs?
I would have no further communication with him. You made your offer and he rejected it. Silence is now appropriate. Don’t feed into his crusade. Time to move on.
It is worth noting that ANACS response to the customer was that their "current research" indicates the coin to be Proof which suggests that they may have changed their opinion over 13 to 15 years.
Is is worth trying to reach out to ANACS asking them to confirm that they would have likely classified the coin as a business strike when it was originally slabbed by them? If so, that should hopefully put the nail in the coffin of the argument with the buyer. IMHO, I can't believe the buyer is even coming back to you after this long.
I can believe it. What I'm a little surprised at is that he refused my compromise offer of $400. He's willing to take nothing or $534 but not $400?????
Then run that's your opportunity. You guaranteed authentic and they proved that multiple times. You owe him nothing and were being overly kind.
I admit that this is a very grey area and that the buyer is being unreasonable, but it can be argued that your guarantee that it is "genuine" implies "and as described." "Business Strike" vs. "Proof" is not a matter of opinion, like grading. It is either one or the other, (not that I had an easy time telling the one from the other for this date when I was at ANACS), and there is a significant difference in value. If it is not a "Business Strike," I think you owe the refund.
MOO
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
I admit that this is a very grey area and that the buyer is being unreasonable, but it can be argued that your guarantee that it is "genuine" implies "and as described." "Business Strike" vs. "Proof" is not a matter of opinion, like grading. It is either one or the other, (not that I had an easy time telling the one from the other for this date when I was at ANACS), and there is a significant difference in value. If it is not a "Business Strike," I think you owe the refund.
MOO
TD
This is the piece of it that gives me pause.
What about the issue of confirming that it is the same coin?
@jmlanzaf said:
This is the piece of it that gives me pause.
I can see a scenario where one might sell a coin that's been cracked out of a holder along with the label, with the only guarantee being that the coin was, indeed, the one cracked out but no additional guarantee that the coin was correctly attributed by the TPG.
@jmlanzaf said:
What about the issue of confirming that it is the same coin?
@CaptHenway said:
I admit that this is a very grey area and that the buyer is being unreasonable, but it can be argued that your guarantee that it is "genuine" implies "and as described." "Business Strike" vs. "Proof" is not a matter of opinion, like grading. It is either one or the other, (not that I had an easy time telling the one from the other for this date when I was at ANACS), and there is a significant difference in value. If it is not a "Business Strike," I think you owe the refund.
MOO
TD
I'm sure any of our lawyer members here will agree that when both sides entered into this transaction, the only enforceable guarantee was the one specifically mentioned and fulfilled...and that was the guarantee of authenticity. So absent any other specific language the only thing that can be implied is that it is an "as is" sale otherwise. OP sold the coin as a business strike piece relying on his good faith belief that ANACS got it right the first time. He did not grade the coin as a business strike piece; ANACS did. Tom states that "business strike vs proof is not a matter of opinion..." Well- I'd normally agree with that of course, but in this case it seems that ANACS changed their own opinion on this coin from business strike to proof. How is that OPs fault? Or responsibility?
@telephoto1 said:
but in this case it seems that ANACS changed their own opinion on this coin from business strike to proof. How is that OPs fault? Or responsibility?
I wouldn't think it's the OP's fault or responsibility but not everybody seems to agree on that sort of thing. There was a thread posted here in the past by someone who bought a slabbed MS70 coin, thought it was overgraded and believed the seller was responsible for fixing the problem.
@CaptHenway said:
I admit that this is a very grey area and that the buyer is being unreasonable, but it can be argued that your guarantee that it is "genuine" implies "and as described." "Business Strike" vs. "Proof" is not a matter of opinion, like grading. It is either one or the other, (not that I had an easy time telling the one from the other for this date when I was at ANACS), and there is a significant difference in value. If it is not a "Business Strike," I think you owe the refund.
MOO
TD
This is the piece of it that gives me pause.
What about the issue of confirming that it is the same coin?
That is well beyond my pay grade.
I wish that you had said something like "if returned in the original holder" to your guarantee, but you did not. Unless you can prove that it is not the same coin, I think you have to bite the bullet and issue the refund after you receive the coin back and have a chance to look at it.
Sorry.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
I admit that this is a very grey area and that the buyer is being unreasonable, but it can be argued that your guarantee that it is "genuine" implies "and as described." "Business Strike" vs. "Proof" is not a matter of opinion, like grading. It is either one or the other, (not that I had an easy time telling the one from the other for this date when I was at ANACS), and there is a significant difference in value. If it is not a "Business Strike," I think you owe the refund.
MOO
TD
This is the piece of it that gives me pause.
What about the issue of confirming that it is the same coin?
Unless you have a high res image of it from 13 years ago, I don't see how you can confirm it's the same coin. Tell him it was proven genuine per the guarantee. Your only offer is your final offer, and he has 24 hours to decide. If he chooses not to take you up on your (imo) grand gesture of generosity, he should enjoy what he has and learn a lesson from it... Grading is subjective!
He would lose quite handily in any reasonable court of law. Shoot Judge Judy would make mince meat of the guy 🤣
@CaptHenway said:
I wish that you had said something like "if returned in the original holder" to your guarantee, but you did not.
The OP never had the coin in the original holder. It was already cracked out when it came into his hands.
The OP never stated that it was already cracked out when it came into his hands. He stated that the coin was already cracked out when he sold it. The OP might be the party that cracked the coin out. If he is, the only evidence saying that the coin sold with that label is in fact the coin that was cracked out is the OP's word. For all we know, the OP may have had a Proof version and an MS version of the 1884 coin and cracked out the MS coin and paired up the MS label with the Proof coin. I'm not implying that this is what has happened here....I'm just saying that it is a possible scenario based on what has been presented here. Perhaps the OP can tell us if he is the party that cracked out the coin (and if so, why did he perform the crack out?) or if the coin was purchased already cracked out.
@CaptHenway said:
I wish that you had said something like "if returned in the original holder" to your guarantee, but you did not.
The OP never had the coin in the original holder. It was already cracked out when it came into his hands.
The OP never stated that it was already cracked out when it came into his hands. He stated that the coin was already cracked out when he sold it. The OP might be the party that cracked the coin out.
From the first post:
"In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder."
He didn't say:
"In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that I broke out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder."
So there's that. But maybe I'm reading the original post wrong.
edited to add... What would be the benefit of cracking out a coin and selling it with the label vs. just selling it in the slab? I don't see any.
Much like the guarantee that the OP sent with the coin, the opening sentence in his post is a bit nebulous and therefore open to interpretation. Did the OP crack the coin out and resubmit to another TPG and fail to get a better evaluation and then decide to sell it with label featuring a better grade? Or, did the coin come into the OP's hands already cracked out?
@PipestonePete said:
Much like the guarantee that the OP sent with the coin, the opening sentence in his post is a bit nebulous and therefore open to interpretation. Did the OP crack the coin out and resubmit to another TPG and fail to get a better evaluation and then decide to sell it with label featuring a better grade? Or, did the coin come into the OP's hands already cracked out?
He said it was a consignment. Do people typically crack out coins consigned to them? I think not.
The update is rather interesting. The guy does not seem to be that crazy or a scammer. It appears he really did think you were guaranteeing a business strike.
I think that you are having a true moral dilemma. This is not a conclusion I thought I’d reach, but just buy back the coin at this point.
Actually, there is a 3rd possibility. Based on the language, sloppy though it may be, the letter was guaranteeing that the coin and the label went together. Remember, the coin was already out of the holder when sold. It is a very fine line that should almost qualify me for a law degree, but the letter is not guaranteeing the coin to be MS but guaranteeing the coin to be the one that ANACS called MS.
If that is how you intended the letter to be read, and you are confident the buyer was of the same understanding when you both agreed on the transaction, then there is no reason for you to issue a refund. I think if it were that easy you wouldn't have posted this though.
The issue of whether after 13 years the buyer has substituted a different coin and is trying to stick you with it is completely separate though. It seems unlikely to me that someone would go through that effort for ~$270. But people have done crazier things.
@PipestonePete said:
Much like the guarantee that the OP sent with the coin, the opening sentence in his post is a bit nebulous and therefore open to interpretation. Did the OP crack the coin out and resubmit to another TPG and fail to get a better evaluation and then decide to sell it with label featuring a better grade? Or, did the coin come into the OP's hands already cracked out?
He said it was a consignment. Do people typically crack out coins consigned to them? I think not.
"if he recalls correctly" it was a consignment. People certainly do not "typically" crack out coins consigned to them, but there is nothing remotely typical about this entire situation.
@PipestonePete said:
Much like the guarantee that the OP sent with the coin, the opening sentence in his post is a bit nebulous and therefore open to interpretation. Did the OP crack the coin out and resubmit to another TPG and fail to get a better evaluation and then decide to sell it with label featuring a better grade? Or, did the coin come into the OP's hands already cracked out?
He said it was a consignment. Do people typically crack out coins consigned to them? I think not.
"if he recalls correctly" it was a consignment. People certainly do not "typically" crack out coins consigned to them, but there is nothing remotely typical about this entire situation.
I'm taking the "if he recalls correctly" at face value. Otherwise, you could just make up anything you like as an argument.
@PipestonePete said:
The OP might be the party that cracked the coin out. If he is, the only evidence saying that the coin sold with that label is in fact the coin that was cracked out is the OP's word. For all we know, the OP may have had a Proof version and an MS version of the 1884 coin and cracked out the MS coin and paired up the MS label with the Proof coin.
Seems like this would be something the OP would remember having done. Since there was no "if I recall correctly" comment confirming this, well...
Have the buyer sign up here on the collectors fourm.
Here he can get an education and maybe some schooling about what is realistically a guarantee.
I'd bet if you polled everyone else here you would probably be 98% right to expect the buyer to not bother you with these trivial things as he gains a coin education.
2% margin of error because you know there is always that one guy.
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
Has the OP revised his current guarantee ?
I don't usually issue guarantees other than 30 day, no questions asked, returns. The buyer must have asked for a written guarantee and so I supplied one. I should have put a time limit on it. Oops. Who ever thought he would wait 13 years to submit it.
[Or, technically, he sold it. The buyer submitted it and returned it, etc ]
@PipestonePete said:
Much like the guarantee that the OP sent with the coin, the opening sentence in his post is a bit nebulous and therefore open to interpretation. Did the OP crack the coin out and resubmit to another TPG and fail to get a better evaluation and then decide to sell it with label featuring a better grade? Or, did the coin come into the OP's hands already cracked out?
It was consigned to me that way from a dealer. I really do not recall how he got it or why it was already cracked. It's not that unusual for people to crack them out for their album and keep the (useless) label. I really don't recall.
@CaptHenway said:
I wish that you had said something like "if returned in the original holder" to your guarantee, but you did not.
The OP never had the coin in the original holder. It was already cracked out when it came into his hands.
The OP never stated that it was already cracked out when it came into his hands. He stated that the coin was already cracked out when he sold it. The OP might be the party that cracked the coin out. If he is, the only evidence saying that the coin sold with that label is in fact the coin that was cracked out is the OP's word. For all we know, the OP may have had a Proof version and an MS version of the 1884 coin and cracked out the MS coin and paired up the MS label with the Proof coin. I'm not implying that this is what has happened here....I'm just saying that it is a possible scenario based on what has been presented here. Perhaps the OP can tell us if he is the party that cracked out the coin (and if so, why did he perform the crack out?) or if the coin was purchased already cracked out.
Why the hell would I have done that? And if I had, why the hell would I have started this thread? You might be a serial killer, but why the hell would anyone make such implications
@SIowhand said:
The update is rather interesting. The guy does not seem to be that crazy or a scammer. It appears he really did think you were guaranteeing a business strike.
I think that you are having a true moral dilemma. This is not a conclusion I thought I’d reach, but just buy back the coin at this point.
He clearly thought it was a business strike himself since he submitted it twice himself.
I remain conflicted but I'm really not sure why his impression should trump the actual wording of the guarantee, flawed as it is. And my guarantee never mentions strike at all.
@SIowhand said:
The update is rather interesting. The guy does not seem to be that crazy or a scammer. It appears he really did think you were guaranteeing a business strike.
I think that you are having a true moral dilemma. This is not a conclusion I thought I’d reach, but just buy back the coin at this point.
He clearly thought it was a business strike himself since he submitted it twice himself.
I remain conflicted but I'm really not sure why his impression should trump the actual wording of the guarantee, flawed as it is. And my guarantee never mentions strike at all.
Exactly. Tell him to go pound sand as nicely and professionally can. I think your buy back offer was more than generous and should at this point be expired imo.
After reading all the posts and your replies I see you offered him $400 and he wanted $534 . I think that if the mental torment of constantly second guessing should I refund his money or not is going to keep bugging you consider if that $134 difference is worth it. Me I'd probably tell him to send me the coin and original label and send him the $534 and rest really well knowing I learned an expensive lesson (costing about $250) after I resold the coin in it's newly graded holder. Whatever you decide to do is up to you and how you'll feel afterword regardless of any of our opinions.
Another thing to consider is that if this buyer prevails in this unreasonable effort it will only encourage him to keep at it elsewhere.
It seems he has been selling off his coin collection but his antics will probably continue elsewhere.
Fully refunding may clear the seller's conscience but it represents (for him) taking the easy way out, and it will help feed the beast.
If the buyer showed the same level of integrity then that might temper my opinion somewhat, but the fact is that he kept resubmitted the coin in an attempt to get the MS designation and only came back after repeated failures.
I don't think he should have come back after 13 years, but if he was going to do that then it should have been after the first PR slab.
I don't necessarily think the buyer is a bad person, but he has his own agenda and is obviously not afraid to aggressively and shamelessly pursue it.
@jmlanzaf said:
[...]
I remain conflicted but I'm really not sure why his impression should trump the actual wording of the guarantee, flawed as it is. And my guarantee never mentions strike at all.
This.
The paperwork guarantees:
~ the coin is "genuine";
~ and that the coin is "the same coin previously slabbed as genuine by ANACS."
The paperwork says nothing about guaranteeing the ANACS attribution. Why would it? Since it was cracked-out, any ANACS guarantee was void. Why would you guarantee their opinion on an 'unholdered/untraceable' coin with your money for an indefinite period?
You are going to settle this as you see fit. FWIW, I believe that:
~ you have already made a good faith attempt at resolution;
~ since you cannot remember the specifics, your obligation is limited to the written guarantee;
~ the buyers "understanding" is not germane. The documentation explicitly states "genuine", not "genuine MS".
@NJCoin said:
What everyone seems to be missing, given the huge disparity in value between MS and PR, is that your buyer's buyer might have switched the coin and is trying to pull a fast one...
I think this avenue deserves a little more attention. @jmlanzaf said "I'm suspicious because the coin I sold was obviously cleaned and I can't believe it would have straight graded at either ANACS or NGC much less both." And now, it's been straight graded at PCGS, too. Here's the trueview posted earlier:
Does that look "obviously cleaned"? Would PCGS make the effort to hide any cleaning in the trueview? Does it seem likely an obviously cleaned coin would straight grade three times, at three different TPGs?
Just asking...
Not to mention that coin seems to pretty obviously be a proof.
If I didn’t know one way of the other and was given that coin raw I’m fairly certain I’d assume it’s a proof.
@jmlanzaf said:
[...]
I remain conflicted but I'm really not sure why his impression should trump the actual wording of the guarantee, flawed as it is. And my guarantee never mentions strike at all.
This.
The paperwork guarantees:
~ the coin is "genuine";
~ and that the coin is "the same coin previously slabbed as genuine by ANACS."
The paperwork says nothing about guaranteeing the ANACS attribution. Why would it? Since it was cracked-out, any ANACS guarantee was void. Why would you guarantee their opinion on an 'unholdered/untraceable' coin with your money for an indefinite period?
You are going to settle this as you see fit. FWIW, I believe that:
~ you have already made a good faith attempt at resolution;
~ since you cannot remember the specifics, your obligation is limited to the written guarantee;
~ the buyers "understanding" is not germane. The documentation explicitly states "genuine", not "genuine MS".
I agree and it could easily be a case of the buyer’s wish, rather than the buyer’s “understanding” not being “germane”.
The plain meaning of written words - in this case the word “genuine” - is extremely important in both contract law and informal agreements. Based on all of the circumstances and facts presented, I think it would be ludicrous to conclude that the buyer is entitled to any type of compensation. Granted, if the OP wishes to provide it, that’s his choice.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
Somebody mentioned the trip back ANACS... this has also troubled me.
Hard lessons learned...
1) Unless educational by studying PUP's or condition, for example, I never try to take on "problem" coins.... certainly not $500
2) I always try to know more than the dealer.
3) I study the series I am purchasing in detail.
4) Cherry's have a way of becoming sour grapes.
5) All sales are final
6) When in doubt buy slabbed
7) Buyer beware
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Yes. I understand that. But in his rejection the buyer instead asked for a decision between a full refund or none at all, and it seems that JMLanzaf is agonizing over that choice.
As a matter of principle, retracting the offer is a way to establish a position as well as bring finality to the matter.
It's just my opinion, but I have become disillusioned by the buyer's actions.
If you do that, this means that the extended, not so subtle and totally undeserved and unwarranted guilt trip laid on you by him was successful and you apparently place no value on your time.
He's had this coin for OVER A DECADE... let that sink in for a minute.
IF he had come to you in, say, a month with this same info... maybe I'd consider it if he was a really good customer.
This is 13 years later for god's sake!
You amazingly even offered him $400 after that 13 years and that's still not good enough for him...
Why are you agonizing over this? Seriously, I'd like to know.
You did nothing wrong, your authenticity guarantee still stands and is obviously now moot as multiple TPGS have confirmed this.
You have zero obligation, legal, moral or otherwise. He rejected your unbelievably fair compromise offer and gave you an ultimatum of either refund all or none.
The correct response to said ultimatum is painfully obvious.
Shame on him for having the stones to start all this, but shame on you if you just roll over and cave in.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Don't refund him. imho
I hope all of this wasn't just an advertisement for Op's site...I know how some are sensitive to this.
kidding
One more thought to add here recognizing that there seems to be (near) unanimous agreement that the buyer shouldn't be refunded. I've known @MFeld for a long time and have run many business ethics questions his way. He gives great advice (at a great price!) and heavily errs on the side of going above and beyond to ensure there's no way your integrity could be questioned. Much as I agree with the general population here, that Mark is stating in no uncertain terms you should offer no refund and move on is pretty telling... you need one heck of a case in your favor to get that kind of a reply. This isn't a decision I'd sweat, or one that would keep me up at all when I go to sleep.
I'm only agonizing over it because i did write a poorly worded guarantee. There are certainly many reasons to consider the terms met including his sale of the item and 13 year ownership of it.
If I recall correctly, the coin was a consignment from a dealer friend who has since passed away. I bet he's laughing at me from the Great Beyond.
I don't know. I'm Catholic. We do guilt.
Surprisingly common mixup on the late proof 3 cent nickels. I have heard of this (not a 13 year guarantee , lol) particular incident happening at least 4 different times. Someone sells an UNC details coin that rare in business strike that’s actually a proof. ANACS differentiates between their proof details and UNC details but NGC & PCGS just slaps on UNC details on business and proof coins.
That’s incorrect about NGC and PCGS. Both differentiate between business strikes and Proofs, when assigning details grades
.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
With all due respect, you really shouldn't give him anything. What everyone seems to be missing, given the huge disparity in value between MS and PR, is that your buyer's buyer might have switched the coin and is trying to pull a fast one, since your buyer undoubtedly sold the coin as MS in 2022 for thousands, not hundreds!
While it's clear you want to do the right thing, given the length of time and the fact that you have no way to know that the coin you sold is the coin that was returned to your original buyer, there is no way your guarantee can still be valid, no matter what "genuine" means here. JMHO.
IMO, I’d return and refund. The dollar amount involved is not enough to compensate for the time you will have to devote to this guy if you extend this issue.
He doesn't have to devote any time to it. Just one final email.
"Dear XXXX:
Despite the fact that I am under no obligation whatsoever to accept a return 13 years after the fact and that the coin has been certified genuine by more than one TPG, thereby confirming my guarantee of authenticity, which was the one and only guarantee offered with this coin, I still chose to make a fair offer of $400 for the piece in one final attempt to make you happy. Since you have summarily rejected the offer, I now consider the matter closed. Enjoy the coin. Good luck in your future endeavors."
Signed,
Jmlanzaf
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I think this avenue deserves a little more attention. @jmlanzaf said "I'm suspicious because the coin I sold was obviously cleaned and I can't believe it would have straight graded at either ANACS or NGC much less both." And now, it's been straight graded at PCGS, too. Here's the trueview posted earlier:
Does that look "obviously cleaned"? Would PCGS make the effort to hide any cleaning in the trueview? Does it seem likely an obviously cleaned coin would straight grade three times, at three different TPGs?
Just asking...
I would have no further communication with him. You made your offer and he rejected it. Silence is now appropriate. Don’t feed into his crusade. Time to move on.
Then run that's your opportunity. You guaranteed authentic and they proved that multiple times. You owe him nothing and were being overly kind.
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I've bought from him too. I don't regret it.
@jmlanzaf
Sarcastically I'd counter offer back to him $400.01.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I admit that this is a very grey area and that the buyer is being unreasonable, but it can be argued that your guarantee that it is "genuine" implies "and as described." "Business Strike" vs. "Proof" is not a matter of opinion, like grading. It is either one or the other, (not that I had an easy time telling the one from the other for this date when I was at ANACS), and there is a significant difference in value. If it is not a "Business Strike," I think you owe the refund.
MOO
TD
This is the piece of it that gives me pause.
What about the issue of confirming that it is the same coin?
I can see a scenario where one might sell a coin that's been cracked out of a holder along with the label, with the only guarantee being that the coin was, indeed, the one cracked out but no additional guarantee that the coin was correctly attributed by the TPG.
Do you think you'd be able to tell?
I'm sure any of our lawyer members here will agree that when both sides entered into this transaction, the only enforceable guarantee was the one specifically mentioned and fulfilled...and that was the guarantee of authenticity. So absent any other specific language the only thing that can be implied is that it is an "as is" sale otherwise. OP sold the coin as a business strike piece relying on his good faith belief that ANACS got it right the first time. He did not grade the coin as a business strike piece; ANACS did. Tom states that "business strike vs proof is not a matter of opinion..." Well- I'd normally agree with that of course, but in this case it seems that ANACS changed their own opinion on this coin from business strike to proof. How is that OPs fault? Or responsibility?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I wouldn't think it's the OP's fault or responsibility but not everybody seems to agree on that sort of thing. There was a thread posted here in the past by someone who bought a slabbed MS70 coin, thought it was overgraded and believed the seller was responsible for fixing the problem.
Doesn’t a grade = genuine? Buyer has zero recourse as you didn’t guarantee grades, only authenticity.
They can pound sand.
That is well beyond my pay grade.
I wish that you had said something like "if returned in the original holder" to your guarantee, but you did not. Unless you can prove that it is not the same coin, I think you have to bite the bullet and issue the refund after you receive the coin back and have a chance to look at it.
Sorry.
@jmlanzaf If the shoe was on the other foot would you ask the dealer for a return after 13 years?
The OP never had the coin in the original holder. It was already cracked out when it came into his hands.
Unless you have a high res image of it from 13 years ago, I don't see how you can confirm it's the same coin. Tell him it was proven genuine per the guarantee. Your only offer is your final offer, and he has 24 hours to decide. If he chooses not to take you up on your (imo) grand gesture of generosity, he should enjoy what he has and learn a lesson from it... Grading is subjective!
He would lose quite handily in any reasonable court of law. Shoot Judge Judy would make mince meat of the guy 🤣
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Has the OP revised his current guarantee ?
The OP never stated that it was already cracked out when it came into his hands. He stated that the coin was already cracked out when he sold it. The OP might be the party that cracked the coin out. If he is, the only evidence saying that the coin sold with that label is in fact the coin that was cracked out is the OP's word. For all we know, the OP may have had a Proof version and an MS version of the 1884 coin and cracked out the MS coin and paired up the MS label with the Proof coin. I'm not implying that this is what has happened here....I'm just saying that it is a possible scenario based on what has been presented here. Perhaps the OP can tell us if he is the party that cracked out the coin (and if so, why did he perform the crack out?) or if the coin was purchased already cracked out.
From the first post:
"In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder."
He didn't say:
"In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that I broke out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder."
So there's that. But maybe I'm reading the original post wrong.
edited to add... What would be the benefit of cracking out a coin and selling it with the label vs. just selling it in the slab? I don't see any.
Much like the guarantee that the OP sent with the coin, the opening sentence in his post is a bit nebulous and therefore open to interpretation. Did the OP crack the coin out and resubmit to another TPG and fail to get a better evaluation and then decide to sell it with label featuring a better grade? Or, did the coin come into the OP's hands already cracked out?
He said it was a consignment. Do people typically crack out coins consigned to them? I think not.
The update is rather interesting. The guy does not seem to be that crazy or a scammer. It appears he really did think you were guaranteeing a business strike.
I think that you are having a true moral dilemma. This is not a conclusion I thought I’d reach, but just buy back the coin at this point.
If that is how you intended the letter to be read, and you are confident the buyer was of the same understanding when you both agreed on the transaction, then there is no reason for you to issue a refund. I think if it were that easy you wouldn't have posted this though.
The issue of whether after 13 years the buyer has substituted a different coin and is trying to stick you with it is completely separate though. It seems unlikely to me that someone would go through that effort for ~$270. But people have done crazier things.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
"if he recalls correctly" it was a consignment. People certainly do not "typically" crack out coins consigned to them, but there is nothing remotely typical about this entire situation.
I'm taking the "if he recalls correctly" at face value. Otherwise, you could just make up anything you like as an argument.
Seems like this would be something the OP would remember having done. Since there was no "if I recall correctly" comment confirming this, well...
One HE SOLD IT that voids your buyers guarantee.
Have the buyer sign up here on the collectors fourm.
Here he can get an education and maybe some schooling about what is realistically a guarantee.
I'd bet if you polled everyone else here you would probably be 98% right to expect the buyer to not bother you with these trivial things as he gains a coin education.
2% margin of error because you know there is always that one guy.
This reminds me of when I worked at Sears and old farmers would come in with tools from almost a century prior and return them 😂
BHNC #248 … 121 and counting.
I don't usually issue guarantees other than 30 day, no questions asked, returns. The buyer must have asked for a written guarantee and so I supplied one. I should have put a time limit on it. Oops. Who ever thought he would wait 13 years to submit it.
[Or, technically, he sold it. The buyer submitted it and returned it, etc ]
It was consigned to me that way from a dealer. I really do not recall how he got it or why it was already cracked. It's not that unusual for people to crack them out for their album and keep the (useless) label. I really don't recall.
Why the hell would I have done that? And if I had, why the hell would I have started this thread? You might be a serial killer, but why the hell would anyone make such implications
A number of people on this forum have said they do this.
He clearly thought it was a business strike himself since he submitted it twice himself.
I remain conflicted but I'm really not sure why his impression should trump the actual wording of the guarantee, flawed as it is. And my guarantee never mentions strike at all.
Exactly. Tell him to go pound sand as nicely and professionally can. I think your buy back offer was more than generous and should at this point be expired imo.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
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After reading all the posts and your replies I see you offered him $400 and he wanted $534 . I think that if the mental torment of constantly second guessing should I refund his money or not is going to keep bugging you consider if that $134 difference is worth it. Me I'd probably tell him to send me the coin and original label and send him the $534 and rest really well knowing I learned an expensive lesson (costing about $250) after I resold the coin in it's newly graded holder. Whatever you decide to do is up to you and how you'll feel afterword regardless of any of our opinions.
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Another thing to consider is that if this buyer prevails in this unreasonable effort it will only encourage him to keep at it elsewhere.
It seems he has been selling off his coin collection but his antics will probably continue elsewhere.
Fully refunding may clear the seller's conscience but it represents (for him) taking the easy way out, and it will help feed the beast.
If the buyer showed the same level of integrity then that might temper my opinion somewhat, but the fact is that he kept resubmitted the coin in an attempt to get the MS designation and only came back after repeated failures.
I don't think he should have come back after 13 years, but if he was going to do that then it should have been after the first PR slab.
I don't necessarily think the buyer is a bad person, but he has his own agenda and is obviously not afraid to aggressively and shamelessly pursue it.
This.
The paperwork guarantees:
~ the coin is "genuine";
~ and that the coin is "the same coin previously slabbed as genuine by ANACS."
The paperwork says nothing about guaranteeing the ANACS attribution. Why would it? Since it was cracked-out, any ANACS guarantee was void. Why would you guarantee their opinion on an 'unholdered/untraceable' coin with your money for an indefinite period?
You are going to settle this as you see fit. FWIW, I believe that:
~ you have already made a good faith attempt at resolution;
~ since you cannot remember the specifics, your obligation is limited to the written guarantee;
~ the buyers "understanding" is not germane. The documentation explicitly states "genuine", not "genuine MS".
Not to mention that coin seems to pretty obviously be a proof.
If I didn’t know one way of the other and was given that coin raw I’m fairly certain I’d assume it’s a proof.
I agree and it could easily be a case of the buyer’s wish, rather than the buyer’s “understanding” not being “germane”.
The plain meaning of written words - in this case the word “genuine” - is extremely important in both contract law and informal agreements. Based on all of the circumstances and facts presented, I think it would be ludicrous to conclude that the buyer is entitled to any type of compensation. Granted, if the OP wishes to provide it, that’s his choice.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.