These b*stards are going to destroy the hobby. Even the value of genuine coins will collapse because people will be afraid to buy coins for fear they will get a counterfeit.
Yes good read, I do have a question, it says in there that if you do a google search by puting the coin information in you can get a picture of the coin to compare. I guess the coin would have had to be in an auction database for it to show up on a search, is that correct?
@alaura22 said:
Yes good read, I do have a question, it says in there that if you do a google search by puting the coin information in you can get a picture of the coin to compare. I guess the coin would have had to be in an auction database for it to show up on a search, is that correct?
Yes. What the paragraph was relying on is that the counterfeiters initially started with a slab they found online and then a search should find it. But this is not always true. See the first part of paragraph below.
If you are still not sure, type in the coin’s information (Type, date, mintmark) and the slab’s serial number into a search engine such as Google. The Chinese counterfeiters generally copy slabs which they have pictures of and from sources that they can data mine easily, such as on Heritage.
Ok, I understand.
So, I'm looking at a coin that doesn't show up in a search, the cert number is a match, and doesn't have a pic to compare it with, how would I know if it's not a fake?
Great article by Thomas Walker. I love all the photographic examples.
I found the following very interesting:
Thomas Walker said:
One more example is this 1833 half cent. The star sharpness far exceeds that of any half cents produced by the US mint in 1833, even for proofs. The hair detail is also far sharper than is typical. Some EAC collectors noted that the reverse die variety was not that used in 1833 (I don’t know which one it was at the moment), and the star/dentil relationship does not match the C-1 die pair, the only one used that year. However, the date font and position is exactly correct. The discrepancies lead me to believe that the obverse was not created using a die transfer (though the reverse might have been), and the obverse was likely created using a CAD program of some sort.
I posted this coin without context to see how deceptive it was, and I received multiple unsolicited offers for it.
@alaura22 said:
Ok, I understand.
So, I'm looking at a coin that doesn't show up in a search, the cert number is a match, and doesn't have a pic to compare it with, how would I know if it's not a fake?
From reading the articles on these, the impression I get is that it's helpful to know coin varieties.
@alaura22 said:
Ok, I understand.
So, I'm looking at a coin that doesn't show up in a search, the cert number is a match, and doesn't have a pic to compare it with, how would I know if it's not a fake?
From reading the articles on these, the impression I get is that it's helpful to know coin varieties.
Yeah, I get it, but when you're a type collector it's really hard to know everything.
Just have to be very careful on what you buy and from whom you buy it from
@alaura22 said:
Ok, I understand.
So, I'm looking at a coin that doesn't show up in a search, the cert number is a match, and doesn't have a pic to compare it with, how would I know if it's not a fake?
From reading the articles on these, the impression I get is that it's helpful to know coin varieties.
Yeah, I get it, but when you're a type collector it's really hard to know everything.
Just have to be very careful on what you buy and from whom you buy it from
For type collecting, I tend to just get coins with photos.
@alaura22 said:
Ok, I understand.
So, I'm looking at a coin that doesn't show up in a search, the cert number is a match, and doesn't have a pic to compare it with, how would I know if it's not a fake?
From reading the articles on these, the impression I get is that it's helpful to know coin varieties.
Yeah, I get it, but when you're a type collector it's really hard to know everything.
Just have to be very careful on what you buy and from whom you buy it from
For type collecting, I tend to just get coins with photos.
Wow, I can't find coins now.............Just another thing to add to the list
Thanks for your answers to my questions, I do appreciate it
Provenance will become more important, even for low and mid-priced coins. A collector should never buy a raw early US coin without learning how to attribute by die marriage, many counterfeits can be detected through die attribution. For that matter, slabbed coins should also be attributed before purchase. From memory, the 1803 half dollar in the article was made from a transfer die of 1806 O.109 with the date changed (no stem through claw should be a tip-off). The 1795 half dollar is a transfer from O-119, with differences that can be detected through knowledge of that die marriage - many fakes have come from this variety including a fake 1794 posted on this forum.
Some of the article source was from counterfeiter's publications. I have no doubt that counterfeiters read articles like this one to make their fakes more deceptive (as Henry Dawkins did back in 1776 to improve his fake Connecticut notes). I am hoping that researchers, TPG's and others who detect counterfeits hold some secrets on their detection methods. I have done this. Otherwise, counterfeiters could potentially create an undetectable fake.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
@alpha33 said:
I have one upgrade left for my 7070 set, then it's over! You just cannot trust anything any longer.
.
what it will boil down to is knowledge and experience. (as always) collectables and a lot of other things require us to be on alert and on our game. it isn't a good way to live and while i like a good challenge from time to time, being in this state is stressful, inefficient, exhausting even. it can take the fun out of it quite a bit not to mention being financially risky for those that just want to dabble or are rusty or even just don't have much to be able to afford to lose.
while we don't see it very often, there are forces at work against those striving to scam and a lot of experienced numismatists and various levels of law enforcement here and even abroad to are striving to stop or at least stem the flow to a large degree of undermining of the system, not just in numismatics.
throughout history though, we have gone up and down on the counterfeit roller coaster (there are times it was worse in the past than it is now, believe it or not) and there will always arrive a tipping point and if everyone striving for order fights hard enough, then history will fall on their side, for a while, if not, chaos will ensue until those fighting supercede them again.
we're still here fighting, so i'm optimistic but that doesn't mean those fighting won't get bloody along the way.
@Zoins said:
Great article by Thomas Walker. I love all the photographic examples.
I found the following very interesting:
.
.
an EXCELLENT point and ties to my VERY first experience with counterfeits. (that i knew of)
i heard a very knowledgeable numismatist at a LCS state they were having a hard time finding high-grade higher dollar items to buy and in the box i was looking through was something like an 86-s (don't recall exactly) but even in my uneducated state, i could tell it was a cut above so i called him over to show him the item and he looked at it for a couple seconds and i could tell something was wrong. skip forward a bit and he stated it was TOO nice for the date/mm.
a valuable lesson to say the least. (it was determined to be an added mm) i remember thinking, sheesh, if i would have bought that, i could have been nailed although i'm pretty sure the LCS would have covered me but if i had been elsewhere...that loss would have crippled me financially for my expendable income into numismatics for a long time.
so between your post above and this one below:
From reading the articles on these, the impression I get is that it's helpful to know coin varieties.
.
.
it will always be true, know your series, buy from those you can trust, not just to sell good items but that will make right bad ones and when you venture outside those circles, it is no holds barred.
the half cent you posted is a classic example of something that is TOO nice and i wonder how i would handle it if i were out somewhere, yard sale, pawn shop etc and saw that listed for idk, 1-300. i know i'd look it over for a bit before purchasing just because of the high propensity for fakes like this these days.
@spencer195 said:
These b*stards are going to destroy the hobby. Even the value of genuine coins will collapse because people will be afraid to buy coins for fear they will get a counterfeit.
Stopping manufacture likely won’t happen as long as they are legal in the country of manufacture. Import and and resales is where it can stop before the the law is changed in the originating country.
It’s a bit like illegal import of GMOs from a country where they are legal.
Thanks for putting up the article. I read it quite early this morning and appreciated seeing it.
Knowledge is power, and very little has beat good study and solid experience. Another reason to really study what series you are interested in before you skip along happily whistling in the dark.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
@Zoins said:
Great article by Thomas Walker. I love all the photographic examples.
I found the following very interesting:
Thomas Walker said:
One more example is this 1833 half cent. The star sharpness far exceeds that of any half cents produced by the US mint in 1833, even for proofs. The hair detail is also far sharper than is typical. Some EAC collectors noted that the reverse die variety was not that used in 1833 (I don’t know which one it was at the moment), and the star/dentil relationship does not match the C-1 die pair, the only one used that year. However, the date font and position is exactly correct. The discrepancies lead me to believe that the obverse was not created using a die transfer (though the reverse might have been), and the obverse was likely created using a CAD program of some sort.
I posted this coin without context to see how deceptive it was, and I received multiple unsolicited offers for it.
Strange. Usually it's the other way around.
That coin is TOO GOOD to be genuine.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
I definitely feel like I'm getting pushed more and more towards only buying slabbed coins with available online pics that I can compare against what I'm buying. I was one of those in the camp of the "I'm not going to worry that it's fake because it's worth less than $x" but I guess that was the wrong stance to take after reading this article.
Read through page 19 of the well written article. I'm sure the TPGs are on this, for obvious reasons. However, if you are familiar with the series, you can spot many of the fakes.
1) The head of the Half Cent on the Draped Bust Large Cent.
2) Coins that just have too much detail (hair, stars, feathers). This is trickier, because the 1828 - 1835 Half Cents had collars as they were the first coins on which the steam press was used, and Uncs of these dates are usually well struck. Hammered, but the details don't jump out at you like they do on the counterfeit examples presented.
3) Buy from reputable sources. They will refund your money and of course, they don't want to be put in this position in the first place.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
An excellent Primer on the subject. I would like to see this thread pinned to the top of the forum.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Zoins said:
Great article by Thomas Walker. I love all the photographic examples.
I found the following very interesting:
Thomas Walker said:
One more example is this 1833 half cent. The star sharpness far exceeds that of any half cents produced by the US mint in 1833, even for proofs. The hair detail is also far sharper than is typical. Some EAC collectors noted that the reverse die variety was not that used in 1833 (I don’t know which one it was at the moment), and the star/dentil relationship does not match the C-1 die pair, the only one used that year. However, the date font and position is exactly correct. The discrepancies lead me to believe that the obverse was not created using a die transfer (though the reverse might have been), and the obverse was likely created using a CAD program of some sort.
I posted this coin without context to see how deceptive it was, and I received multiple unsolicited offers for it.
Strange. Usually it's the other way around.
That coin is TOO GOOD to be genuine.
Pete
The 1833 Half Cent does appear to have been re-sculpted in some manner. Perhaps a "scan" was made of an actual coin and then turned into a larger sculpt. Then the sculpt was hand-worked to strengthen the details and correct some deficiencies in the scanning process. A reduction lathe could have been used to make the final die.
Fortunately, any time hand-working is involved there will always be "tells".
And the hair details are just too different from a genuine coin for this to be a straight transfer process (without any re-working).
I tried last night and this morning to open the link/article and I get a "the site cannot be reached" error message. Is anyone else having this problem?
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Comments
a must read/look for those wanting to improve their counterfeit detection knowledge, especially if just starting out.
These b*stards are going to destroy the hobby. Even the value of genuine coins will collapse because people will be afraid to buy coins for fear they will get a counterfeit.
Agree - a good read.
@Aspie_Rocco you should add this to the Resources thread.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Yes good read, I do have a question, it says in there that if you do a google search by puting the coin information in you can get a picture of the coin to compare. I guess the coin would have had to be in an auction database for it to show up on a search, is that correct?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Yes. What the paragraph was relying on is that the counterfeiters initially started with a slab they found online and then a search should find it. But this is not always true. See the first part of paragraph below.
If you are still not sure, type in the coin’s information (Type, date, mintmark) and the slab’s serial number into a search engine such as Google. The Chinese counterfeiters generally copy slabs which they have pictures of and from sources that they can data mine easily, such as on Heritage.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Ok, I understand.
So, I'm looking at a coin that doesn't show up in a search, the cert number is a match, and doesn't have a pic to compare it with, how would I know if it's not a fake?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Great article. Very noteworthy information. Thank you.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Great article by Thomas Walker. I love all the photographic examples.
I found the following very interesting:
From reading the articles on these, the impression I get is that it's helpful to know coin varieties.
Yeah, I get it, but when you're a type collector it's really hard to know everything.
Just have to be very careful on what you buy and from whom you buy it from
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
For type collecting, I tend to just get coins with photos.
Ideally, TrueViews and SlabViews
Wow, I can't find coins now.............Just another thing to add to the list
Thanks for your answers to my questions, I do appreciate it
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
That was a very good read, thank you for sharing this information!
Kind of makes me wanna check and recheck my inventory now...
Thank you, Heavenly Father, for first loving us.
@spencer195... Thanks for a great article/link. I will read the rest of it later (time to get ready for work). Cheers, RickO
YouTube video on the topic.
Provenance will become more important, even for low and mid-priced coins. A collector should never buy a raw early US coin without learning how to attribute by die marriage, many counterfeits can be detected through die attribution. For that matter, slabbed coins should also be attributed before purchase. From memory, the 1803 half dollar in the article was made from a transfer die of 1806 O.109 with the date changed (no stem through claw should be a tip-off). The 1795 half dollar is a transfer from O-119, with differences that can be detected through knowledge of that die marriage - many fakes have come from this variety including a fake 1794 posted on this forum.
Some of the article source was from counterfeiter's publications. I have no doubt that counterfeiters read articles like this one to make their fakes more deceptive (as Henry Dawkins did back in 1776 to improve his fake Connecticut notes). I am hoping that researchers, TPG's and others who detect counterfeits hold some secrets on their detection methods. I have done this. Otherwise, counterfeiters could potentially create an undetectable fake.
.
what it will boil down to is knowledge and experience. (as always) collectables and a lot of other things require us to be on alert and on our game. it isn't a good way to live and while i like a good challenge from time to time, being in this state is stressful, inefficient, exhausting even. it can take the fun out of it quite a bit not to mention being financially risky for those that just want to dabble or are rusty or even just don't have much to be able to afford to lose.
while we don't see it very often, there are forces at work against those striving to scam and a lot of experienced numismatists and various levels of law enforcement here and even abroad to are striving to stop or at least stem the flow to a large degree of undermining of the system, not just in numismatics.
throughout history though, we have gone up and down on the counterfeit roller coaster (there are times it was worse in the past than it is now, believe it or not) and there will always arrive a tipping point and if everyone striving for order fights hard enough, then history will fall on their side, for a while, if not, chaos will ensue until those fighting supercede them again.
we're still here fighting, so i'm optimistic but that doesn't mean those fighting won't get bloody along the way.
.
.
an EXCELLENT point and ties to my VERY first experience with counterfeits. (that i knew of)
i heard a very knowledgeable numismatist at a LCS state they were having a hard time finding high-grade higher dollar items to buy and in the box i was looking through was something like an 86-s (don't recall exactly) but even in my uneducated state, i could tell it was a cut above so i called him over to show him the item and he looked at it for a couple seconds and i could tell something was wrong. skip forward a bit and he stated it was TOO nice for the date/mm.
a valuable lesson to say the least. (it was determined to be an added mm) i remember thinking, sheesh, if i would have bought that, i could have been nailed although i'm pretty sure the LCS would have covered me but if i had been elsewhere...that loss would have crippled me financially for my expendable income into numismatics for a long time.
so between your post above and this one below:
.
.
it will always be true, know your series, buy from those you can trust, not just to sell good items but that will make right bad ones and when you venture outside those circles, it is no holds barred.
the half cent you posted is a classic example of something that is TOO nice and i wonder how i would handle it if i were out somewhere, yard sale, pawn shop etc and saw that listed for idk, 1-300. i know i'd look it over for a bit before purchasing just because of the high propensity for fakes like this these days.
Stopping manufacture likely won’t happen as long as they are legal in the country of manufacture. Import and and resales is where it can stop before the the law is changed in the originating country.
It’s a bit like illegal import of GMOs from a country where they are legal.
Thanks for putting up the article. I read it quite early this morning and appreciated seeing it.
Knowledge is power, and very little has beat good study and solid experience. Another reason to really study what series you are interested in before you skip along happily whistling in the dark.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
A very educational post.
Thanks @spencer195 for sharing it.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Strange. Usually it's the other way around.
That coin is TOO GOOD to be genuine.
Pete
Thanks for posting the article.
Frightening line: "tips to help survive the modern counterfeiting epidemic".
I definitely feel like I'm getting pushed more and more towards only buying slabbed coins with available online pics that I can compare against what I'm buying. I was one of those in the camp of the "I'm not going to worry that it's fake because it's worth less than $x" but I guess that was the wrong stance to take after reading this article.
Yep. They are not trying to hide their process. Didn't take me long to find this group of pictures online.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Read through page 19 of the well written article. I'm sure the TPGs are on this, for obvious reasons. However, if you are familiar with the series, you can spot many of the fakes.
1) The head of the Half Cent on the Draped Bust Large Cent.
2) Coins that just have too much detail (hair, stars, feathers). This is trickier, because the 1828 - 1835 Half Cents had collars as they were the first coins on which the steam press was used, and Uncs of these dates are usually well struck. Hammered, but the details don't jump out at you like they do on the counterfeit examples presented.
3) Buy from reputable sources. They will refund your money and of course, they don't want to be put in this position in the first place.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
An excellent Primer on the subject. I would like to see this thread pinned to the top of the forum.
The 1833 Half Cent does appear to have been re-sculpted in some manner. Perhaps a "scan" was made of an actual coin and then turned into a larger sculpt. Then the sculpt was hand-worked to strengthen the details and correct some deficiencies in the scanning process. A reduction lathe could have been used to make the final die.
Fortunately, any time hand-working is involved there will always be "tells".
And the hair details are just too different from a genuine coin for this to be a straight transfer process (without any re-working).
Thanks for the article. The more knowledge you have, the better.
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
I tagged AR near the top of this thread and he has put the link in the Resources thread pinned to the top of the forum.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
There's nothing to hide about the minting process as it's legal there.
It's like making something that is legal in the US but is illegal elsewhere, like GMOs.
I tried last night and this morning to open the link/article and I get a "the site cannot be reached" error message. Is anyone else having this problem?
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy