@voxels123 said:
It would be absolutely criminally insane to do anything but be absolutely on the up-and-up on these auctions.
The problem with PWCC is that they see the “conservation” i.e. altering of “assets” I.e. sports cards to be a value add to the hobby. They see it as sane and prudent.
The handful of PWCC haters on here, among the scores of worldwide collectors that abound, might be surprised (disappointed?) to see how resilient the PWCC business model really is.
@voxels123 said:
The handful of PWCC haters on here, among the scores of worldwide collectors that abound, might be surprised (disappointed?) to see how resilient the PWCC business model really is.
Voxels123 - I will not be surprised. I am sure they will continue to do well unless the FBI steps in or somebody wins a significant lawsuit against them.
Their Premiere auctions will thrive and be right up there with other auction houses. Their regular auctions will probably do well - but not as well as they did on EBay. Some of their business will go to other Ebay consignment sellers some will stay with PWCC.
I have no trouble spending my card budget without buying from people I think are bad for the hobby.
I have been working on a ‘55 Bowman HOF set for years now. That set is notorious for having varied card sizes. The dark borders and sizing inconsistencies make the set susceptible to being altered. I would bet that some of my cards have been trimmed - however I would also bet that number would be higher if I continued buying from PWCC. The final 4 I need are taking a while to find in the grade I am looking for but I will find them eventually. I would probably have the set complete if I bought from dealers tied to trimming. One of the cards is available on Ebay now but not from someone I am not comfortable buying from. My set is all in PSA and SGC holders - I trust that they can detect more than I can but evidence has shown they miss things. It perplexes me that people informed on the scandals still do business with the likes of PWCC but collectors as a whole get duped because we love what we buy and want to believe what we see. If the card you have been searching for is available anywhere - it is tough not to pull the trigger.
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
@voxels123 said:
I would consider now to be the safest time to bid on a PWCC auction. The auctions are now on their own website, and they know the FBI is looking in. Also with all the bad press.
It would be absolutely criminally insane to do anything but be absolutely on the up-and-up on these auctions.
What Brent lacks in hubris, he makes up for in self-awareness
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
So you think the cards I had graded by PSA that I then submitted to the PWCC vault to sell may be altered?
@brad31 said:
Voxels123 - I will not be surprised. I am sure they will continue to do well unless the FBI steps in or somebody wins a significant lawsuit against them.
Their Premiere auctions will thrive and be right up there with other auction houses. Their regular auctions will probably do well - but not as well as they did on EBay. Some of their business will go to other Ebay consignment sellers some will stay with PWCC.
I have no trouble spending my card budget without buying from people I think are bad for the hobby.
I have been working on a ‘55 Bowman HOF set for years now. That set is notorious for having varied card sizes. The dark borders and sizing inconsistencies make the set susceptible to being altered. I would bet that some of my cards have been trimmed - however I would also bet that number would be higher if I continued buying from PWCC. The final 4 I need are taking a while to find in the grade I am looking for but I will find them eventually. I would probably have the set complete if I bought from dealers tied to trimming. One of the cards is available on Ebay now but not from someone I am not comfortable buying from. My set is all in PSA and SGC holders - I trust that they can detect more than I can but evidence has shown they miss things. It perplexes me that people informed on the scandals still do business with the likes of PWCC but collectors as a whole get duped because we love what we buy and want to believe what we see. If the card you have been searching for is available anywhere - it is tough not to pull the trigger.
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
So, considering the fact that PWCC only consigns graded cards, with whom do you actually have a problem? Do you think every other consignor, company or individual who sells graded cards has an obligation to second guess the grading company and make their own determination of the legitimacy of the card before selling it?
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
So you think the cards I had graded by PSA that I then submitted to the PWCC vault to sell may be altered?
Yes - once a card passes through PWCC that is what I think. I have no way to know if you were the submitter or Moser was. Guilt by association. I stay away. I know others who do to. But 99.9%+ of buyers don’t think that way so probably not something to worry about.
So, considering the fact that PWCC only consigns graded cards, with whom do you actually have a problem? Do you think every other consignor, company or individual who sells graded cards has an obligation to second guess the grading company and make their own determination of the legitimacy of the card before selling it?
No I do not. However if you thoroughly followed the PWCC trimming scandal there was evidence of cards purchased by PWCCs account that ended up with Moser and then were sold by PWCC at higher grades. That is why I do not trust cards going through PWCC especially during the timeframe my cards were purchased. The evidence of trimming and company supported shilling just made me avoid those guys. We all should do our own research and form our own conclusions. Plenty of information is available if you take the time to read it. All consignors can be victims but in PWCCs case I believe they were at a minimum complicit.
I do hope new tech will help identify altered cards better than people. For PSA issues in not correctly detecting literally started with their card number 1. This weakness in this arena was later exploited by PWCC via proxy by Moser and others.
I for one will never, ever, never, ever, do business with PWCC. It does amaze me though how Fraud (ie shilling) and overall stink of likley criminal activity does not bother most folks. I'm sure those who owned large amount of Enron thought the similar at one time...
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
So, considering the fact that PWCC only consigns graded cards, with whom do you actually have a problem? Do you think every other consignor, company or individual who sells graded cards has an obligation to second guess the grading company and make their own determination of the legitimacy of the card before selling it?
PWCC volunteered to take it on themselves to second guess the grade. They have a whole department to set up to gauge the ‘appeal’ of every card. Supposedly the reason PWCC auctions bring higher prices is because they have scrutinized the graded cards a second or third time for defects…
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
So, considering the fact that PWCC only consigns graded cards, with whom do you actually have a problem? Do you think every other consignor, company or individual who sells graded cards has an obligation to second guess the grading company and make their own determination of the legitimacy of the card before selling it?
PWCC volunteered to take it on themselves to second guess the grade. They have a whole department to set up to gauge the ‘appeal’ of every card. Supposedly the reason PWCC auctions bring higher prices is because they have scrutinized the graded cards a second or third time for defects…
Shill bidding is a rather effective way over the long haul to bring in a higher prices. With no oversight impeding them starting in OCT I see no reason the shill flood gates will not be fully open.
I do hope PSA is considering doing somethign about using PWCC reported sales past, present and future from being used for APR prices. As it stands now the victims of the shill bidding are not limited to auction buyers but to also anyone subbing cards to PSA as PSA based card value on recent sales using PWCC auctions as a metric. So think the shilling at PWCC has not hurt you and stole from your wallet, well think again as it may have!
They have a whole department to set up to gauge the ‘appeal’ of every card.
They do have their top people assigned to that dept. A recently secured pic from an anonymous PWCC source Soitenly confirms it.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
So you think the cards I had graded by PSA that I then submitted to the PWCC vault to sell may be altered?
Yes - once a card passes through PWCC that is what I think. I have no way to know if you were the submitter or Moser was. Guilt by association. I stay away. I know others who do to. But 99.9%+ of buyers don’t think that way so probably not something to worry about.
So, considering the fact that PWCC only consigns graded cards, with whom do you actually have a problem? Do you think every other consignor, company or individual who sells graded cards has an obligation to second guess the grading company and make their own determination of the legitimacy of the card before selling it?
No I do not. However if you thoroughly followed the PWCC trimming scandal there was evidence of cards purchased by PWCCs account that ended up with Moser and then were sold by PWCC at higher grades. That is why I do not trust cards going through PWCC especially during the timeframe my cards were purchased. The evidence of trimming and company supported shilling just made me avoid those guys. We all should do our own research and form our own conclusions. Plenty of information is available if you take the time to read it. All consignors can be victims but in PWCCs case I believe they were at a minimum complicit.
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
So you think the cards I had graded by PSA that I then submitted to the PWCC vault to sell may be altered?
Yes - once a card passes through PWCC that is what I think. I have no way to know if you were the submitter or Moser was. Guilt by association. I stay away. I know others who do to. But 99.9%+ of buyers don’t think that way so probably not something to worry about.
So, considering the fact that PWCC only consigns graded cards, with whom do you actually have a problem? Do you think every other consignor, company or individual who sells graded cards has an obligation to second guess the grading company and make their own determination of the legitimacy of the card before selling it?
No I do not. However if you thoroughly followed the PWCC trimming scandal there was evidence of cards purchased by PWCCs account that ended up with Moser and then were sold by PWCC at higher grades. That is why I do not trust cards going through PWCC especially during the timeframe my cards were purchased. The evidence of trimming and company supported shilling just made me avoid those guys. We all should do our own research and form our own conclusions. Plenty of information is available if you take the time to read it. All consignors can be victims but in PWCCs case I believe they were at a minimum complicit.
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
I have a problem with TPG not being able to do what they claimed they could do (detect alteration), and I have a problem with PWCC trying to exploit that failing to get altered cards into holders. Only one of the two entities intentionally did something immoral.
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
So you think the cards I had graded by PSA that I then submitted to the PWCC vault to sell may be altered?
Yes - once a card passes through PWCC that is what I think. I have no way to know if you were the submitter or Moser was. Guilt by association. I stay away. I know others who do to. But 99.9%+ of buyers don’t think that way so probably not something to worry about.
So, considering the fact that PWCC only consigns graded cards, with whom do you actually have a problem? Do you think every other consignor, company or individual who sells graded cards has an obligation to second guess the grading company and make their own determination of the legitimacy of the card before selling it?
No I do not. However if you thoroughly followed the PWCC trimming scandal there was evidence of cards purchased by PWCCs account that ended up with Moser and then were sold by PWCC at higher grades. That is why I do not trust cards going through PWCC especially during the timeframe my cards were purchased. The evidence of trimming and company supported shilling just made me avoid those guys. We all should do our own research and form our own conclusions. Plenty of information is available if you take the time to read it. All consignors can be victims but in PWCCs case I believe they were at a minimum complicit.
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
I have a problem with TPG not being able to do what they claimed they could do (detect alteration), and I have a problem with PWCC trying to exploit that failing to get altered cards into holders. Only one of the two entities intentionally did something immoral.
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
I have a problem with TPG not being able to do what they claimed they could do (detect alteration), and I have a problem with PWCC trying to exploit that failing to get altered cards into holders. Only one of the two entities intentionally did something immoral.
Fair answer.
Was going to type something similar but do not think I could express it any better than that. PSA needs to do better and invest in technology and training to make altering cards a losing proposition. I have never shied away from saying that.
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
I’d say it’s 50/50 responsibility to check for trimming as long as PWCC sells it with their name ( or sticker) on the slab…
@voxels123 said:
The handful of PWCC haters on here, among the scores of worldwide collectors that abound, might be surprised (disappointed?) to see how resilient the PWCC business model really is.
Time will tell.
Handful?
How many marbles fit in a hand. 20? Can you produce more on here? Or just a whiner?
@brad31 said:
Voxels123 - I will not be surprised. I am sure they will continue to do well unless the FBI steps in or somebody wins a significant lawsuit against them.
Their Premiere auctions will thrive and be right up there with other auction houses. Their regular auctions will probably do well - but not as well as they did on EBay. Some of their business will go to other Ebay consignment sellers some will stay with PWCC.
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
This is undoubtedly a PSA/BGS/SGC problem. Different issue altogether.
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
I’d say it’s 50/50 responsibility to check for trimming as long as PWCC sells it with their name ( or sticker) on the slab…
The allegiance to 3rd party graders is embarrassing. come on. If PSA GRADES a card, it will filter into the market regardless who sells it. blaming PWCC is stupid and philosophically weak.
If I buy a card on eBay, and think it might be altered, but submit it to PSA and it is holdered, I see nothing unethical about that. PSA is being paid to decide whether the card is altered or not, and they are the supposed experts.
But that’s a far cry from having the card altered myself and trying to sneak it through.
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
I’d say it’s 50/50 responsibility to check for trimming as long as PWCC sells it with their name ( or sticker) on the slab…
The allegiance to 3rd party graders is embarrassing. come on. If PSA GRADES a card, it will filter into the market regardless who sells it. blaming PWCC is stupid and philosophically weak.
Hey Brent! How’s Betsy?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@PaulMaul said:
If I buy a card on eBay, and think it might be altered, but submit it to PSA and it is holdered, I see nothing unethical about that. PSA is being paid to decide whether the card is altered or not, and they are the supposed experts.
But that’s a far cry from having the card altered myself and trying to sneak it through.
100%
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@PaulMaul said:
If I buy a card on eBay, and think it might be altered, but submit it to PSA and it is holdered, I see nothing unethical about that. PSA is being paid to decide whether the card is altered or not, and they are the supposed experts.
But that’s a far cry from having the card altered myself and trying to sneak it through.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Yet, PSA still continues to use potentially fraudulent sales from PWCC for their APR's and up-charges. Legal or not remains to be decided, but certainly NOT ethical and NOT moral!
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
anyone else gotten their call from PWCC telling you how great you are as a customer and how great it is to consign through PWCC? I got mine last week.
this is how great of a customer I am. Around 5 years ago i purchased 1 card from them. in 2015 I consigned 1 card with them. I guess 2 transactions from 5 years ago makes me a GREAT customer!!!
@craig44 said:
anyone else gotten their call from PWCC telling you how great you are as a customer and how great it is to consign through PWCC? I got mine last week.
this is how great of a customer I am. Around 5 years ago i purchased 1 card from them. in 2015 I consigned 1 card with them. I guess 2 transactions from 5 years ago makes me a GREAT customer!!!
@craig44 said:
anyone else gotten their call from PWCC telling you how great you are as a customer and how great it is to consign through PWCC? I got mine last week.
this is how great of a customer I am. Around 5 years ago i purchased 1 card from them. in 2015 I consigned 1 card with them. I guess 2 transactions from 5 years ago makes me a GREAT customer!!!
LMAO
I have not received a call, and I sold nearly 50K through them this year,
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
I’d say it’s 50/50 responsibility to check for trimming as long as PWCC sells it with their name ( or sticker) on the slab…
The allegiance to 3rd party graders is embarrassing. come on. If PSA GRADES a card, it will filter into the market regardless who sells it. blaming PWCC is stupid and philosophically weak.
Hey Brent! How’s Betsy?
Oh my. I just saw this. I am a major Note holder at PWCC. Doing just fine myself. You’d be so proud.
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
I’d say it’s 50/50 responsibility to check for trimming as long as PWCC sells it with their name ( or sticker) on the slab…
The allegiance to 3rd party graders is embarrassing. come on. If PSA GRADES a card, it will filter into the market regardless who sells it. blaming PWCC is stupid and philosophically weak.
Hey Brent! How’s Betsy?
Oh my. I just saw this. I am a major Note holder at PWCC. Doing just fine myself. You’d be so proud.
Let’s try to keep this thread open. Think it is a good resource for collectors to get information to make an informed decision about PWCC and some of their history. If we resort to personal attacks it will get locked like the other thread.
Sigh. Have held off Long enough gonna toss in my two cents on the original posters subject matter.
Thought long and hard about this thread before responding. There's two sides to every fight ,and unless one has been on both sides of many ebay tussles, they have minimal big picture concept of the fight that was involved.
In nearly 2 decades dealing with Brent I bought maybe 5 cards. Never had stuff I wanted / needed. They bought tons from me though, and today I have dozens of vault users who buy from me. No complaints on that aspect of stuff.
WARNING: Hobby rant to be unleashed. I got no love for either party involved. Let's get that right out in the open.
PWCC and eBay both completely ignored years and years of reported issues. For the sake of making sure they maximized profits by allowing nearly every sale to occur, even when blatant and obvious violations of their own Terms Of Service occurred. Neither one gets my vote of confidence in the "trust and safety" departments. The whole eBay / PWCC mess was and is about nothing more than money in the end. Neither one ever took a single step towards strengthening buyer safety. They can both shut up .
Not sad PWCC is gone from eBay and out into the auctioneer site cesspool that exists. But = if you know anything about this business, there was and is over 30+ eBay sellers right there with PWCC in the same dumpster fire = and eBay's not doing a thing about them currently as we speak today October 31st, 2021 .
There are folks doing the same things eBay claims it doesn't want to happen for the reasons they bammed PWCC. Yet eBay does nothing. Once again for the same bottom line reasons they chucked PWCC "supposedly" = MONEY . Now I see several of this industries major eBay players have their auctions getting hit with the same headaches. I know they can't keep up either- because just like PWCC was, they are all selling too much , with too little staff to properly monitor. Let's see what eBay does with those sellers when the complaints start rolling in. Let's see how long that money train rolls along before the same issues get reported, and eBay sees once again what a cesspool of buyers they've allowed bidding on site. Know what eBay will do = nothing.
Why ? Money- plain and simple.
Let's relax buyer constraints on auctions and CONTROL what sellers can do to police their own sales. Let's not let SELLERS decide what buyer qualifications a buyer needs to bid on the auction. Lets just get every auction available to even brand new bidders with no history, or say 17 purchases all within the past week. Lets allow them to bid on 40 thousand dollar auctions last second , screw up the sellers business, and then blame the seller for causing it . They've set it up so the fix is in for buyers- all because bottom line all they care about is MONEY.
Trust ? What's that ? Ebay can't even control its own employees = much less the buyer marketplace they run.
But they sure know how to CONTROL SELLERS
Sorta inward thinking reactive crap, instead of outward proactive and protective. If eBay really wanted to get back to its roots-- that of a trusted AUCTION site - and stop trying to be Amazon 2.0, they'd make necessary buyer / seller safety changes. It requires people who have a clue - which eBay does not seem to want to hire on the Sports Card side of things. If any of you have attended any of these eBay summits, or any national events a rep attends, and talked to the boneheads eBay sends to attend them , you'll come away as angry as I am about how little they care about strengthening safety and eliminating seller and buyer abuses in the sportscard industry.
SORRY- that rant was waiting to be loosed. Neither is on my cookie list.
Brent/Betsy because burying one's head in the sand is not the solution , nor is assigning blame. Never once did they properly handle business correctly. They are going to start seeing the same cesspool over on their new self run auctions as well. At least when eBay had their backs they had a safety net. Now its sink or swim. Simple solutions were either not evident to them , or it just is never the focus. I know of no Auction Company with a dozen or two employees capable of running the level of auctions they ran, while properly monitoring the business protections necessary.
eBay is also not on my cookie list either. Bamming PWCC just did nothing more than move that activity over to the 30+ sellers left in the other end of the pool . Money, money, money- that's all feebay cares about.
If eBay actually wanted to strengthen the Sports Card side of things they could have just asked half a dozen people with a clue. They ignore every single recommendation that doesn't fit their "business model". I could name dozens of instances these eBay folks were informed about stuff they could strengthen, and each and every time those internal VP's ignored what was offered because some higher up on eBay decided " no we'd make less money if we did that" , when in reality they'd make a ton more because the site would be trusted more.
Let's revisit the thread in a year and see what happens to both. Ill be interested to see ebay sales / profit numbers soon.
Frankly if someone with a clue enters the sports selling arena, and hires someone with half a clue to run things, feebay is in for major losses in the future. Doubt the two companies I'm thinking of pull it off properly, but hey , stranger things have happened in this industry.
Just weighing in late myself because I was worried about violating the ToS, but is there anyone who really believes that eBay did this for any reason other than that PWCC is setting up an auction site to compete with them, and a Vault from which to Buy It Now? I mean eBay has always been terrified of showrooming, and always claimed it was a violation of its ToS, but generally showrooming is difficult to prove, and it is a bad look to run someone off because they may have googled a seller they have seen on eBay. Far, far better for eBay to accuse a prominent seller of shilling, which no one is in favor of (except possibly when they are selling or wish to sell at the new, higher price).
Having said this, let me state the following. I am 100% sure that at least one person connected with PWCC has at least once shilled, so eBay's rationale is spot on, but IMO disingenuous. I have no idea if 5% or 80% of PWCC's auctions were subject to shilling and neither do you (neither does PWCC, but they can likely make a better ballpark guess than any of us.) Also, shilling is less harmful, IMO, if you're bidding a $1000 item up to $500 to generate buzz around the item than to bid up the leading bidder an increment at a time from $1100 to $1500. That is, shillers who never win are not as big of a problem.
People who retract bids can't be reproached enough.
If “showrooming” is a problem for eBay, then why is 4SC allowed to cross list every item they have on eBay on their own site for 10% off? There is just no realistic way to prevent direct sales between parties who are already acquainted.
I have a feeling that at least for everything below the top 10% cards, ebay, PWCC, auction houses etc will be irrelevant in 10 years anyways. maybe less.
so many cards, including some big ones transact daily on facebook/instagram for no fees, more and more people will just start selling in that way. why on earth give ebay 10%???
where so many transactions are being done privately though, it is really hard to find comps.
@craig44 said:
I have a feeling that at least for everything below the top 10% cards, ebay, PWCC, auction houses etc will be irrelevant in 10 years anyways. maybe less.
so many cards, including some big ones transact daily on facebook/instagram for no fees, more and more people will just start selling in that way. why on earth give ebay 10%???
where so many transactions are being done privately though, it is really hard to find comps.
Define top 10% because I believe that you are right for sub 100$ cards but I wouldn't be confident to sell or buy 500$ or 1000$ on Facebook. For me, having the intermediary is quite convenient.
@craig44 said:
I have a feeling that at least for everything below the top 10% cards, ebay, PWCC, auction houses etc will be irrelevant in 10 years anyways. maybe less.
so many cards, including some big ones transact daily on facebook/instagram for no fees, more and more people will just start selling in that way. why on earth give ebay 10%???
where so many transactions are being done privately though, it is really hard to find comps.
Define top 10% because I believe that you are right for sub 100$ cards but I wouldn't be confident to sell or buy 500$ or 1000$ on Facebook. For me, having the intermediary is quite convenient.
meaning very very expensive cards. the top of the top. like mantle rookies, wagners, high grade low pop hofers. there are some big cards already selling on facebook/instagram.
Comments
very surprised the fee schedule remained the same.
The problem with PWCC is that they see the “conservation” i.e. altering of “assets” I.e. sports cards to be a value add to the hobby. They see it as sane and prudent.
I put 2 items in the October Monthly Auction...we'll see...
The handful of PWCC haters on here, among the scores of worldwide collectors that abound, might be surprised (disappointed?) to see how resilient the PWCC business model really is.
Time will tell.
Handful?
Voxels123 - I will not be surprised. I am sure they will continue to do well unless the FBI steps in or somebody wins a significant lawsuit against them.
Their Premiere auctions will thrive and be right up there with other auction houses. Their regular auctions will probably do well - but not as well as they did on EBay. Some of their business will go to other Ebay consignment sellers some will stay with PWCC.
I have no trouble spending my card budget without buying from people I think are bad for the hobby.
I have been working on a ‘55 Bowman HOF set for years now. That set is notorious for having varied card sizes. The dark borders and sizing inconsistencies make the set susceptible to being altered. I would bet that some of my cards have been trimmed - however I would also bet that number would be higher if I continued buying from PWCC. The final 4 I need are taking a while to find in the grade I am looking for but I will find them eventually. I would probably have the set complete if I bought from dealers tied to trimming. One of the cards is available on Ebay now but not from someone I am not comfortable buying from. My set is all in PSA and SGC holders - I trust that they can detect more than I can but evidence has shown they miss things. It perplexes me that people informed on the scandals still do business with the likes of PWCC but collectors as a whole get duped because we love what we buy and want to believe what we see. If the card you have been searching for is available anywhere - it is tough not to pull the trigger.
When I look at my cards I bought from PWCC I believe there is a good chance they are altered. Have shown my collection to people and said “that one is from PWCC so who knows if it is good”. I don’t like to think that when enjoying my cards.
What Brent lacks in hubris, he makes up for in self-awareness
So you think the cards I had graded by PSA that I then submitted to the PWCC vault to sell may be altered?
MULLINS5,1966CUDA,nam812,nightcrawler,OAKESY25,PowderedH2O,relaxed,RonBurgundy,samsgirl214,shagrotn77,swartz1,slantycouch,Statman,Wabittwax
So, considering the fact that PWCC only consigns graded cards, with whom do you actually have a problem? Do you think every other consignor, company or individual who sells graded cards has an obligation to second guess the grading company and make their own determination of the legitimacy of the card before selling it?
Yes - once a card passes through PWCC that is what I think. I have no way to know if you were the submitter or Moser was. Guilt by association. I stay away. I know others who do to. But 99.9%+ of buyers don’t think that way so probably not something to worry about.
No I do not. However if you thoroughly followed the PWCC trimming scandal there was evidence of cards purchased by PWCCs account that ended up with Moser and then were sold by PWCC at higher grades. That is why I do not trust cards going through PWCC especially during the timeframe my cards were purchased. The evidence of trimming and company supported shilling just made me avoid those guys. We all should do our own research and form our own conclusions. Plenty of information is available if you take the time to read it. All consignors can be victims but in PWCCs case I believe they were at a minimum complicit.
I do hope new tech will help identify altered cards better than people. For PSA issues in not correctly detecting literally started with their card number 1. This weakness in this arena was later exploited by PWCC via proxy by Moser and others.
I for one will never, ever, never, ever, do business with PWCC. It does amaze me though how Fraud (ie shilling) and overall stink of likley criminal activity does not bother most folks. I'm sure those who owned large amount of Enron thought the similar at one time...
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
PWCC volunteered to take it on themselves to second guess the grade. They have a whole department to set up to gauge the ‘appeal’ of every card. Supposedly the reason PWCC auctions bring higher prices is because they have scrutinized the graded cards a second or third time for defects…
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
Shill bidding is a rather effective way over the long haul to bring in a higher prices. With no oversight impeding them starting in OCT I see no reason the shill flood gates will not be fully open.
I do hope PSA is considering doing somethign about using PWCC reported sales past, present and future from being used for APR prices. As it stands now the victims of the shill bidding are not limited to auction buyers but to also anyone subbing cards to PSA as PSA based card value on recent sales using PWCC auctions as a metric. So think the shilling at PWCC has not hurt you and stole from your wallet, well think again as it may have!
They do have their top people assigned to that dept. A recently secured pic from an anonymous PWCC source Soitenly confirms it.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
But at the end of the day, the supposedly trimmed card is still in a third party grading company's slab. Unless you're accusing PWCC of faking a slab, I'll ask you again....with whom exactly do you have a problem?
file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/97/07/0B681CD3-2C75-4B98-A5D9-CDBF8812E01A/tmp.gif
MULLINS5,1966CUDA,nam812,nightcrawler,OAKESY25,PowderedH2O,relaxed,RonBurgundy,samsgirl214,shagrotn77,swartz1,slantycouch,Statman,Wabittwax
I have a problem with TPG not being able to do what they claimed they could do (detect alteration), and I have a problem with PWCC trying to exploit that failing to get altered cards into holders. Only one of the two entities intentionally did something immoral.
Fair answer.
Was going to type something similar but do not think I could express it any better than that. PSA needs to do better and invest in technology and training to make altering cards a losing proposition. I have never shied away from saying that.
I’d say it’s 50/50 responsibility to check for trimming as long as PWCC sells it with their name ( or sticker) on the slab…
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
exploitation way worse, imo. intentional vs unintentional.
How many marbles fit in a hand. 20? Can you produce more on here? Or just a whiner?
This is undoubtedly a PSA/BGS/SGC problem. Different issue altogether.
The allegiance to 3rd party graders is embarrassing. come on. If PSA GRADES a card, it will filter into the market regardless who sells it. blaming PWCC is stupid and philosophically weak.
If I buy a card on eBay, and think it might be altered, but submit it to PSA and it is holdered, I see nothing unethical about that. PSA is being paid to decide whether the card is altered or not, and they are the supposed experts.
But that’s a far cry from having the card altered myself and trying to sneak it through.
Hey Brent! How’s Betsy?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
100%
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Yep! And with that good riddance to PWCC!
aconte
Class action suit filed against PWCC
https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/pwcc-facing-class-action-suit-over-shill-bidding-allegations/?fbclid=IwAR0X9djSqAd9iZ3cUnxhR0D7kMInsgfLigYYoMpYo4YBCGcT5eB-fqJI3GA
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
One thing for sure there are a lot fewer nice cards for sale right now. Not much high end stuff from the 50’s in terms of PSA singles.
Thanks for link.
Good!
Yet, PSA still continues to use potentially fraudulent sales from PWCC for their APR's and up-charges. Legal or not remains to be decided, but certainly NOT ethical and NOT moral!
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
anyone else gotten their call from PWCC telling you how great you are as a customer and how great it is to consign through PWCC? I got mine last week.
this is how great of a customer I am. Around 5 years ago i purchased 1 card from them. in 2015 I consigned 1 card with them. I guess 2 transactions from 5 years ago makes me a GREAT customer!!!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If I had any "assets" in their vault, I would be booking a flight and picking them up in person. probably tomorrow.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
LMAO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
you know what i mean VERN !!!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
I have not received a call, and I sold nearly 50K through them this year,
Oh my. I just saw this. I am a major Note holder at PWCC. Doing just fine myself. You’d be so proud.
They are both doing quite well.
Thank you for your concern, skinny!
Explains everything. Thank you.
@brad31
Great call!
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Let’s try to keep this thread open. Think it is a good resource for collectors to get information to make an informed decision about PWCC and some of their history. If we resort to personal attacks it will get locked like the other thread.
Happy Halloween! 😉
Anyone know how long consignors keep your money before they send you your payment?
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
PWCC notes the payout dates for every auction in your seller's portal. It's something like 2 weeks from close. It varies by consignment operation.
Sigh. Have held off Long enough gonna toss in my two cents on the original posters subject matter.
Thought long and hard about this thread before responding. There's two sides to every fight ,and unless one has been on both sides of many ebay tussles, they have minimal big picture concept of the fight that was involved.
In nearly 2 decades dealing with Brent I bought maybe 5 cards. Never had stuff I wanted / needed. They bought tons from me though, and today I have dozens of vault users who buy from me. No complaints on that aspect of stuff.
WARNING: Hobby rant to be unleashed. I got no love for either party involved. Let's get that right out in the open.
PWCC and eBay both completely ignored years and years of reported issues. For the sake of making sure they maximized profits by allowing nearly every sale to occur, even when blatant and obvious violations of their own Terms Of Service occurred. Neither one gets my vote of confidence in the "trust and safety" departments. The whole eBay / PWCC mess was and is about nothing more than money in the end. Neither one ever took a single step towards strengthening buyer safety. They can both shut up .
Not sad PWCC is gone from eBay and out into the auctioneer site cesspool that exists. But = if you know anything about this business, there was and is over 30+ eBay sellers right there with PWCC in the same dumpster fire = and eBay's not doing a thing about them currently as we speak today October 31st, 2021 .
There are folks doing the same things eBay claims it doesn't want to happen for the reasons they bammed PWCC. Yet eBay does nothing. Once again for the same bottom line reasons they chucked PWCC "supposedly" = MONEY . Now I see several of this industries major eBay players have their auctions getting hit with the same headaches. I know they can't keep up either- because just like PWCC was, they are all selling too much , with too little staff to properly monitor. Let's see what eBay does with those sellers when the complaints start rolling in. Let's see how long that money train rolls along before the same issues get reported, and eBay sees once again what a cesspool of buyers they've allowed bidding on site. Know what eBay will do = nothing.
Why ? Money- plain and simple.
Let's relax buyer constraints on auctions and CONTROL what sellers can do to police their own sales. Let's not let SELLERS decide what buyer qualifications a buyer needs to bid on the auction. Lets just get every auction available to even brand new bidders with no history, or say 17 purchases all within the past week. Lets allow them to bid on 40 thousand dollar auctions last second , screw up the sellers business, and then blame the seller for causing it . They've set it up so the fix is in for buyers- all because bottom line all they care about is MONEY.
Trust ? What's that ? Ebay can't even control its own employees = much less the buyer marketplace they run.
But they sure know how to CONTROL SELLERS
Sorta inward thinking reactive crap, instead of outward proactive and protective. If eBay really wanted to get back to its roots-- that of a trusted AUCTION site - and stop trying to be Amazon 2.0, they'd make necessary buyer / seller safety changes. It requires people who have a clue - which eBay does not seem to want to hire on the Sports Card side of things. If any of you have attended any of these eBay summits, or any national events a rep attends, and talked to the boneheads eBay sends to attend them , you'll come away as angry as I am about how little they care about strengthening safety and eliminating seller and buyer abuses in the sportscard industry.
SORRY- that rant was waiting to be loosed. Neither is on my cookie list.
Brent/Betsy because burying one's head in the sand is not the solution , nor is assigning blame. Never once did they properly handle business correctly. They are going to start seeing the same cesspool over on their new self run auctions as well. At least when eBay had their backs they had a safety net. Now its sink or swim. Simple solutions were either not evident to them , or it just is never the focus. I know of no Auction Company with a dozen or two employees capable of running the level of auctions they ran, while properly monitoring the business protections necessary.
eBay is also not on my cookie list either. Bamming PWCC just did nothing more than move that activity over to the 30+ sellers left in the other end of the pool . Money, money, money- that's all feebay cares about.
If eBay actually wanted to strengthen the Sports Card side of things they could have just asked half a dozen people with a clue. They ignore every single recommendation that doesn't fit their "business model". I could name dozens of instances these eBay folks were informed about stuff they could strengthen, and each and every time those internal VP's ignored what was offered because some higher up on eBay decided " no we'd make less money if we did that" , when in reality they'd make a ton more because the site would be trusted more.
Let's revisit the thread in a year and see what happens to both. Ill be interested to see ebay sales / profit numbers soon.
Frankly if someone with a clue enters the sports selling arena, and hires someone with half a clue to run things, feebay is in for major losses in the future. Doubt the two companies I'm thinking of pull it off properly, but hey , stranger things have happened in this industry.
Great read. Thanks.
Who knows what the truth is. All the childish behavior on here is due to mere jealousy. I long for days when a savvy investor isn’t cursed and mocked.
I’m just confused by what I saw, whether vetted or not, whether true or not, can elicit such theatrics on here.
But I’m still doing quite fine but perhaps for different reasons altogether!
I’m sure I’m not someone who has 7figures with PWCC! And if so, what an extra tax burden at 9%!!
Just weighing in late myself because I was worried about violating the ToS, but is there anyone who really believes that eBay did this for any reason other than that PWCC is setting up an auction site to compete with them, and a Vault from which to Buy It Now? I mean eBay has always been terrified of showrooming, and always claimed it was a violation of its ToS, but generally showrooming is difficult to prove, and it is a bad look to run someone off because they may have googled a seller they have seen on eBay. Far, far better for eBay to accuse a prominent seller of shilling, which no one is in favor of (except possibly when they are selling or wish to sell at the new, higher price).
Having said this, let me state the following. I am 100% sure that at least one person connected with PWCC has at least once shilled, so eBay's rationale is spot on, but IMO disingenuous. I have no idea if 5% or 80% of PWCC's auctions were subject to shilling and neither do you (neither does PWCC, but they can likely make a better ballpark guess than any of us.) Also, shilling is less harmful, IMO, if you're bidding a $1000 item up to $500 to generate buzz around the item than to bid up the leading bidder an increment at a time from $1100 to $1500. That is, shillers who never win are not as big of a problem.
People who retract bids can't be reproached enough.
If “showrooming” is a problem for eBay, then why is 4SC allowed to cross list every item they have on eBay on their own site for 10% off? There is just no realistic way to prevent direct sales between parties who are already acquainted.
I have a feeling that at least for everything below the top 10% cards, ebay, PWCC, auction houses etc will be irrelevant in 10 years anyways. maybe less.
so many cards, including some big ones transact daily on facebook/instagram for no fees, more and more people will just start selling in that way. why on earth give ebay 10%???
where so many transactions are being done privately though, it is really hard to find comps.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Define top 10% because I believe that you are right for sub 100$ cards but I wouldn't be confident to sell or buy 500$ or 1000$ on Facebook. For me, having the intermediary is quite convenient.
meaning very very expensive cards. the top of the top. like mantle rookies, wagners, high grade low pop hofers. there are some big cards already selling on facebook/instagram.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.