If they are to be added to the set, just to make it fair, they should be delivered to the fulfillment center in canvas bags over rough roads.
These beautiful 70's will make the expensive dated AUs in my sets look pretty crappy. Even a BU Peace dollar set will look sorta scruffy by comparison.
Maybe if they had the same size and metal content of the original Morgan dollars, I would. But IMO they are too different to be in the same boat as the morgans from 1878-1904
@Overdate said:
Are they a significantly different thickness? My understanding is that the dimensions are the same, but they are .999 fine silver rather than 90% silver, and contain .858 ounces of silver rather than .7734 ounces of silver.
Diameter and thickness, from what I have read, will be the same. And, in fact, a 1921 Morgan dollar (26.73 grams) weighs nearly identical (indistinguishable by weight when in hand) to the 2021 Morgan dollar (0.858 troy oz. of silver = ~26.68 grams).
(edit: actually assuming similar density of the 0.001 complement to the 0.999 silver, then the 2021 should weight about 26.71 grams)
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Should it be part of a Morgan registry set composition? IMO, yes. The supporting arguments so far are compelling.
There are ten different compositions of Morgan Dollar Registry sets. The 2021 Morgan Dollar would merely expand the composition of one or more of the existing ten, or add an 11th Morgan set composition.
Further, the weighting of such and addition would/should be no more than 1.00.
And lastly, given the likely preponderance of MS70 examples, the addition to a Morgan set composition would not likely be a distinguishing component in the set rankings.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@Overdate said:
Are they a significantly different thickness? My understanding is that the dimensions are the same, but they are .999 fine silver rather than 90% silver, and contain .858 ounces of silver rather than .7734 ounces of silver.
Diameter and thickness, from what I have read, will be the same. And, in fact, a 1921 Morgan dollar (26.73 grams) weighs nearly identical (indistinguishable by weight when in hand) to the 2021 Morgan dollar (0.858 troy oz. of silver = ~26.68 grams).
(edit: actually assuming similar density of the 0.001 complement to the 0.999 silver, then the 2021 should weight about 26.71 grams)
Hmmmm.....very interesting reading all of the comments posted thus far. I'll confess that my position has waffled back and forth a few times. I don't have a dog in the fight as I don't collect Morgan or Peace dollars and don't participate in the registry sets currently. However, there a couple of points made that tip the scales for me.
1) The 2021 coins are official U.S. Mint issues bearing the name, design, and denomination of their original ancestors.
2) They are legal tender coins of the United States of America.
Whatever other arguments one wants to make for or against classification, these points are facts. Therefore, how can they not be considered part of the series they identify with? I can't and won't guess how PCGS or NGC or ??? would classify them in a "registry" but from a purely numismatic point of view I can't imagine they are anything other than Morgan and Peace dollars.
I totally get why some folks would revolt at the idea. I'll grant you, it is weird. But, these days, the brakes are completely off with the U.S. Mint/Government and nothing surprises me. Just look at the Washington quarter series. You need a spreadsheet just to keep up with it.
I'll agree that these "special" issue dollars feel like a commemorative but that's just because we don't really have much to compare them too.
As far as the composition arguments, can't go along with that because there is plenty of precedence of over the past 229 years for metallurgical changes in our coins.
The only conclusion I can come up with is they are Morgan and Peace dollars no matter how odd that seems to me.
I've read all of the posts and I have to say that there is a very compelling arguement that these are a continuation of the earlier series.
The precedents set by 40% bicentennial coins and Ikes could eliminate the different composition concern (not to mention various compositions for cents, war nickels, etc.).
The precedents set by collector-only versions of half dollars and dollars (and W mintmarked coins, and S mintmark NP quarters) could eliminate those arguements.
It looks like the record for the longest break between issues within a series will be reclaimed from the SBAs by the Morgan dollar.
@Higashiyama said: @Overdate said" "The "commemorative" reason for issuing the 2021 silver dollars should not be the sole determining factor as to whether they belong in their respective sets. Just about every U.S. coin is a commemorative to some extent."
Of course I agree with that and did not say it was the sole factor. The commemorative factor is one important reason, but I and others have given many other reasons why it is not a natural part of the Morgan set.
The other examples you have given do not offer strong precedents. The 2004 - 2005 nickels are circulation issues, as are the state quarter and ATB coins. The 1975-1976 bicentennial 40 % silver coins are variants on a circulating issue. The 2021 Morgan is not a circulating issue and has a precious metal content that far exceeds the nominal value. It is strictly a commemorative-- it is not remotely a variant on a circulating coin.
Except it is a composition variant of the original coins. > @MsMorrisine said:
not a registry set person
not a silver dollar collector.
still like to offer an opinion.
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
Why? As far a I can tell it is just a business strike.
@Higashiyama said: @Overdate said" "The "commemorative" reason for issuing the 2021 silver dollars should not be the sole determining factor as to whether they belong in their respective sets. Just about every U.S. coin is a commemorative to some extent."
Of course I agree with that and did not say it was the sole factor. The commemorative factor is one important reason, but I and others have given many other reasons why it is not a natural part of the Morgan set.
The other examples you have given do not offer strong precedents. The 2004 - 2005 nickels are circulation issues, as are the state quarter and ATB coins. The 1975-1976 bicentennial 40 % silver coins are variants on a circulating issue. The 2021 Morgan is not a circulating issue and has a precious metal content that far exceeds the nominal value. It is strictly a commemorative-- it is not remotely a variant on a circulating coin.
Except it is a composition variant of the original coins. > @MsMorrisine said:
not a registry set person
not a silver dollar collector.
still like to offer an opinion.
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
Why? As far a I can tell it is just a business strike.
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
@Higashiyama said: @Overdate said" "The "commemorative" reason for issuing the 2021 silver dollars should not be the sole determining factor as to whether they belong in their respective sets. Just about every U.S. coin is a commemorative to some extent."
Of course I agree with that and did not say it was the sole factor. The commemorative factor is one important reason, but I and others have given many other reasons why it is not a natural part of the Morgan set.
The other examples you have given do not offer strong precedents. The 2004 - 2005 nickels are circulation issues, as are the state quarter and ATB coins. The 1975-1976 bicentennial 40 % silver coins are variants on a circulating issue. The 2021 Morgan is not a circulating issue and has a precious metal content that far exceeds the nominal value. It is strictly a commemorative-- it is not remotely a variant on a circulating coin.
Except it is a composition variant of the original coins. > @MsMorrisine said:
not a registry set person
not a silver dollar collector.
still like to offer an opinion.
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
Why? As far a I can tell it is just a business strike.
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
I don't understand this. What does the composition have to do with the finish?
@Higashiyama said: @Overdate said" "The "commemorative" reason for issuing the 2021 silver dollars should not be the sole determining factor as to whether they belong in their respective sets. Just about every U.S. coin is a commemorative to some extent."
Of course I agree with that and did not say it was the sole factor. The commemorative factor is one important reason, but I and others have given many other reasons why it is not a natural part of the Morgan set.
The other examples you have given do not offer strong precedents. The 2004 - 2005 nickels are circulation issues, as are the state quarter and ATB coins. The 1975-1976 bicentennial 40 % silver coins are variants on a circulating issue. The 2021 Morgan is not a circulating issue and has a precious metal content that far exceeds the nominal value. It is strictly a commemorative-- it is not remotely a variant on a circulating coin.
Except it is a composition variant of the original coins. > @MsMorrisine said:
not a registry set person
not a silver dollar collector.
still like to offer an opinion.
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
Why? As far a I can tell it is just a business strike.
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
I don't understand this. What does the composition have to do with the finish?
The Internet is your friend! From Quora:
Fine silver coinage is also easier to produce - the dies last 3x longer, and there is much less downtime for cleaning the dies because the metal is so much softer. Fine silver (. 999) is too soft and malleable to survive the abuse of circulation - coins rubbing against each other and being crushed in piles.
@Higashiyama said: @Overdate said" "The "commemorative" reason for issuing the 2021 silver dollars should not be the sole determining factor as to whether they belong in their respective sets. Just about every U.S. coin is a commemorative to some extent."
Of course I agree with that and did not say it was the sole factor. The commemorative factor is one important reason, but I and others have given many other reasons why it is not a natural part of the Morgan set.
The other examples you have given do not offer strong precedents. The 2004 - 2005 nickels are circulation issues, as are the state quarter and ATB coins. The 1975-1976 bicentennial 40 % silver coins are variants on a circulating issue. The 2021 Morgan is not a circulating issue and has a precious metal content that far exceeds the nominal value. It is strictly a commemorative-- it is not remotely a variant on a circulating coin.
Except it is a composition variant of the original coins. > @MsMorrisine said:
not a registry set person
not a silver dollar collector.
still like to offer an opinion.
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
Why? As far a I can tell it is just a business strike.
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
I don't understand this. What does the composition have to do with the finish?
The Internet is your friend! From Quora:
Fine silver coinage is also easier to produce - the dies last 3x longer, and there is much less downtime for cleaning the dies because the metal is so much softer. Fine silver (. 999) is too soft and malleable to survive the abuse of circulation - coins rubbing against each other and being crushed in piles.
That is why they don't use silver for circulation. That is somewhat different from the strike type. ASE's are not designated "specimen" strike but are considered "business strike", are they not?
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
the mint's silver proof set is no longer made of 90%. they use .999. Apparently it is easier and cheaper to obtain .999 blanks
Likewise we are being stuck with .999 blanks for these.
OK, but proofs aren't intended for "business" either, so there's no contradiction.
There is no doubt these coins aren't intended for actual circulation or commerce. We can get into a semantic debate over how to define the strike, but I would expect them to get an MS designation not an SP designation.
@Higashiyama said: @Overdate said" "The "commemorative" reason for issuing the 2021 silver dollars should not be the sole determining factor as to whether they belong in their respective sets. Just about every U.S. coin is a commemorative to some extent."
Of course I agree with that and did not say it was the sole factor. The commemorative factor is one important reason, but I and others have given many other reasons why it is not a natural part of the Morgan set.
The other examples you have given do not offer strong precedents. The 2004 - 2005 nickels are circulation issues, as are the state quarter and ATB coins. The 1975-1976 bicentennial 40 % silver coins are variants on a circulating issue. The 2021 Morgan is not a circulating issue and has a precious metal content that far exceeds the nominal value. It is strictly a commemorative-- it is not remotely a variant on a circulating coin.
Except it is a composition variant of the original coins. > @MsMorrisine said:
not a registry set person
not a silver dollar collector.
still like to offer an opinion.
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
Why? As far a I can tell it is just a business strike.
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
I don't understand this. What does the composition have to do with the finish?
The Internet is your friend! From Quora:
Fine silver coinage is also easier to produce - the dies last 3x longer, and there is much less downtime for cleaning the dies because the metal is so much softer. Fine silver (. 999) is too soft and malleable to survive the abuse of circulation - coins rubbing against each other and being crushed in piles.
That is why they don't use silver for circulation. That is somewhat different from the strike type. ASE's are not designated "specimen" strike but are considered "business strike", are they not?
No, they don't use silver (anymore) for circulation because it costs far less to use clad, and due to inflation the coins would be tiny. Circulating silver and gold were typically 90% alloys with 10% copper.
@Higashiyama said: @Overdate said" "The "commemorative" reason for issuing the 2021 silver dollars should not be the sole determining factor as to whether they belong in their respective sets. Just about every U.S. coin is a commemorative to some extent."
Of course I agree with that and did not say it was the sole factor. The commemorative factor is one important reason, but I and others have given many other reasons why it is not a natural part of the Morgan set.
The other examples you have given do not offer strong precedents. The 2004 - 2005 nickels are circulation issues, as are the state quarter and ATB coins. The 1975-1976 bicentennial 40 % silver coins are variants on a circulating issue. The 2021 Morgan is not a circulating issue and has a precious metal content that far exceeds the nominal value. It is strictly a commemorative-- it is not remotely a variant on a circulating coin.
Except it is a composition variant of the original coins. > @MsMorrisine said:
not a registry set person
not a silver dollar collector.
still like to offer an opinion.
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
Why? As far a I can tell it is just a business strike.
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
I don't understand this. What does the composition have to do with the finish?
The Internet is your friend! From Quora:
Fine silver coinage is also easier to produce - the dies last 3x longer, and there is much less downtime for cleaning the dies because the metal is so much softer. Fine silver (. 999) is too soft and malleable to survive the abuse of circulation - coins rubbing against each other and being crushed in piles.
That is why they don't use silver for circulation. That is somewhat different from the strike type. ASE's are not designated "specimen" strike but are considered "business strike", are they not?
No, they don't use silver (anymore) for circulation because it costs far less to use clad, and due to inflation the coins would be tiny. Circulating silver and gold were typically 90% alloys with 10% copper.
Yes, I'm well aware, Captain Obvious. The question is what do you wish to call the ASE strike? It is not designated a specimen strike, it is not designated a proof strike, so you would call it....???
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
the mint's silver proof set is no longer made of 90%. they use .999. Apparently it is easier and cheaper to obtain .999 blanks
Likewise we are being stuck with .999 blanks for these.
OK, but proofs aren't intended for "business" either, so there's no contradiction.
There is no doubt these coins aren't intended for actual circulation or commerce. We can get into a semantic debate over how to define the strike, but I would expect them to get an MS designation not an SP designation.
Due to the volume of production, I imagine they will be designated MS by PCGS, although I wouldn't bet my life on it. OTOH, given the market, I believe these will receive more careful handling at the mint than standard business strike issues intended for circulation. No one is going to complain if they get a roll of brand new coins from the bank and they have some imperfections. The same won't be true for people ponying up $75 for a silver dollar.
@Higashiyama said: @Overdate said" "The "commemorative" reason for issuing the 2021 silver dollars should not be the sole determining factor as to whether they belong in their respective sets. Just about every U.S. coin is a commemorative to some extent."
Of course I agree with that and did not say it was the sole factor. The commemorative factor is one important reason, but I and others have given many other reasons why it is not a natural part of the Morgan set.
The other examples you have given do not offer strong precedents. The 2004 - 2005 nickels are circulation issues, as are the state quarter and ATB coins. The 1975-1976 bicentennial 40 % silver coins are variants on a circulating issue. The 2021 Morgan is not a circulating issue and has a precious metal content that far exceeds the nominal value. It is strictly a commemorative-- it is not remotely a variant on a circulating coin.
Except it is a composition variant of the original coins. > @MsMorrisine said:
not a registry set person
not a silver dollar collector.
still like to offer an opinion.
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
Why? As far a I can tell it is just a business strike.
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
I don't understand this. What does the composition have to do with the finish?
The Internet is your friend! From Quora:
Fine silver coinage is also easier to produce - the dies last 3x longer, and there is much less downtime for cleaning the dies because the metal is so much softer. Fine silver (. 999) is too soft and malleable to survive the abuse of circulation - coins rubbing against each other and being crushed in piles.
That is why they don't use silver for circulation. That is somewhat different from the strike type. ASE's are not designated "specimen" strike but are considered "business strike", are they not?
No, they don't use silver (anymore) for circulation because it costs far less to use clad, and due to inflation the coins would be tiny. Circulating silver and gold were typically 90% alloys with 10% copper.
Yes, I'm well aware, Captain Obvious. The question is what do you wish to call the ASE strike? It is not designated a specimen strike, it is not designated a proof strike, so you would call it....???
I was merely responding to what you actually wrote. Perhaps you meant to say "that is why they don't use fine silver for circulation", in which case that's what you should have written. I would call a non-proof ASE (technically) a specimen strike, but using the designation MS is perfectly fine by me. It merely indicates a lack of circulation. Ultimately, it's just a semantic argument. Coins that aren't intended for circulation shouldn't be called "business" strikes IMHO, but feel free to disagree.
Apologies to the forum at large for the digression...
@CoinJunkie said:
Coins that aren't intended for circulation shouldn't be called "business" strikes IMHO, but feel free to disagree.
Perhaps "business strike" is a description of the manufacturing process, not the intended destination of the coin?
Read my comments above. Coins minted expressly for sale to collectors almost certainly receive better treatment and handling at the mint than those intended for circulation. The number of strikes to the planchet hardly tells the entire story.
@CoinJunkie said:
Read my comments above. Coins minted expressly for sale to collectors almost certainly receive better treatment and handling at the mint than those intended for circulation. The number of strikes to the planchet hardly tells the entire story.
Am I correct in understanding that you are including the handling of a coin after it has been struck as part of the manufacturing process?
@CoinJunkie said:
Read my comments above. Coins minted expressly for sale to collectors almost certainly receive better treatment and handling at the mint than those intended for circulation. The number of strikes to the planchet hardly tells the entire story.
Am I correct in understanding that you are including the handling of a coin after it has been struck as part of the manufacturing process?
Yes. Before, during, and after striking. The mint is producing and delivering each product for a specific purpose and market. How a coin gets handled and packaged is part of the manufacturing process. IMHO, of course.
@MsMorrisine said:
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
Even if it is, the 2021 coins would still qualify as part of the Morgan/Peace series. Precedents include the 1998-S silver Kennedy half and the 2009-PD bronze Lincoln cents.
@CoinJunkie said:
Yes. Before, during, and after striking. The mint is producing and delivering each product for a specific purpose and market. How a coin gets handled and packaged is part of the manufacturing process. IMHO, of course.
That would mean the dollars that were released by the treasury in the 60's were in the process of being manufactured for 60-80 years or so.
Seems like kind of a long time, but maybe that's just me.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CoinJunkie said:
Yes. Before, during, and after striking. The mint is producing and delivering each product for a specific purpose and market. How a coin gets handled and packaged is part of the manufacturing process. IMHO, of course.
That would mean the dollars that were released by the treasury in the 60's were in the process of being manufactured for 60-80 years or so.
Seems like kind of a long time, but maybe that's just me.
Now you're just being pedantic and silly. I'm out.
I posted this in the 'poll' thread.... Cheers, RickO
I will not consider it part of the original series. It is being minted to commemorate the end of the series, not as a circulating coin. Purely a collectors specimen. If it were minted to circulate, part of our coinage in commerce, then I would agree it would become part of the coin series. Cheers, RickO
What is clear to me is that this new issue will give modern collectors a direct link to the classic Morgan series. This is a huge potential positive for the market. Those that cry there is not enough interest in the hobby moving forward should accept the new series as a continuation and an opportunity for more tribute products from the Mint.
@fathom said:
What is clear to me is that this new issue will give modern collectors a direct link to the classic Morgan series. This is a huge potential positive for the market. Those that cry there is not enough interest in the hobby moving forward should accept the new series as a continuation and an opportunity for more tribute products from the Mint.
This is the main benefit of including the 2021 in the series. The benefit isn’t for the 2021. The benefit is for the older coins.
@BryceM said:
Now, if they used original hubs and changed only the date with 90/10 planchets, I'd vote yes.
I believe the 1921 Morgans did not use original hubs either.
True, but the overall feel of the coin was pretty close. Not exact, but close enough for government work. I have a notion the "new" Peace and Morgan dollars will be qualitatively very different than the originals. We'll see.
Yes and no. If I look at the Morgan design, it is closer to the III2 obverse and C3 reverse (1879-1900) than the 1921 adaptations are. Very little difference in the actual design. The manufacturing process will contribute to the bulk of the qualitative differences. The way they are produced, they will not have the same luster characteristics as the originals. The planchets will be specially prepared and the dies will be polished in a much different manner than they were in 1921 or in earlier years. The detail on the die will be that of a heavily worn die, but with no orange peel effect.
If I ran the zoo, the dies would be much crisper than I'm seeing. They'd be polished once before use on a 12" basin like they were in the 1880s, such that we'd be given the DMPL coinage that can be so impressive. Dies would be used for enough strikes that the PL effect started to fade, giving more lustrous coins. The mint marks and privy marks would be struck by hand, and maybe we'd see RPMs. Planchets would be prepared more like they are for today's commemoratives, but only to ensure there aren't defects preserved on the high points of the coin. The Peace dollar dies would not be polished to a DMPL finish, just finished as they were in 1921. The high relief design in full relief with luster as originally produced would be stunning in comparison to the finish that we will see. Alas, I don't run the zoo, nor do I advise those that do.
TL;DR: If I were in charge, they'd look as though they were actually part of the original series and not a commemorative.
@ricko said:
I posted this in the 'poll' thread.... Cheers, RickO
I will not consider it part of the original series. It is being minted to commemorate the end of the series, not as a circulating coin. Purely a collectors specimen. If it were minted to circulate, part of our coinage in commerce, then I would agree it would become part of the coin series. Cheers, RickO
Most of the original Morgan (and Peace) dollars were not minted to circulate either. Their excessive mintage was politically motivated, and as a consequence they were warehoused by the government for decades.
Do you consider the circulation-strike "S" ATB quarters to be a legitimate part of the National Park quarter series? Or the more recent Kennedy halves? They weren't minted to circulate either.
I’m going to have a MS70 Morgan
Never thought I could afford such a coin. Maybe I can find a MS70PL or Dcam. Seriously I don’t think the mints work will be close enough for me to want one. Although the reverse of the San Fran Fran comm is pretty nice. I guess I could be surprised
"@ricko said: 'I posted this in the 'poll' thread.... Cheers, RickO
I will not consider it part of the original series. It is being minted to commemorate the end of the series, not as a circulating coin. Purely a collectors specimen. If it were minted to circulate, part of our coinage in commerce, then I would agree it would become part of the coin series. Cheers, RickO'
Most of the original Morgan (and Peace) dollars were not minted to circulate either. Their excessive mintage was politically motivated, and as a consequence they were warehoused by the government for decades.
Do you consider the circulation-strike "S" ATB quarters to be a legitimate part of the National Park quarter series? Or the more recent Kennedy halves? They weren't minted to circulate either"
I think @ricko is looking at the big picture. The 2021 is a commemorative minted 100 years after the fact with a silver content roughly 20 times face value of the coin. It is very detached from the original series.
So what if a lot of Morgans sat in bank vaults and did not circulate? Millions did circulate, and millions still exist in well circulated condition.
Referring to the 'S' ATB quarters or even the current Kennedys is a bit of a red herring. The "S" ATBs can be thought of a special collector issue closely tied to the currently circulating coins. The non circulating Kennedys are minted in large quantity and are basically worth face. They are just one step away from a circulating issue, compared to the 2021 Morgan which is many, many steps away. As I said previously, the current Kennedy halves are somewhat akin to the later 3 cent pieces or the later Trade Dollars.
You spoke and the Mint listened! The household order limit has been lowered from 25 to 10 for the following products:
• 21XC Morgan Dollar with “CC” privy mark
• 21XD Morgan Dollar with “O” privy mark
• 21XF Morgan Dollar (S) mint mark
• 21XG Morgan Dollar (D) mint mark
• 21XE Morgan Dollar no privy or mint mark
• 21XH Peace Dollar no privy or mint mark
Please visit https://catalog.usmint.gov/product-schedule/ for more information about each product.
@Overdate said:
A household order limit of 1 or 2 would be even better.
Better for who?
Better for collectors who want a fair chance to successfully order a coin or two from the Mint for their collections before a premature sellout. Even better would be for the Mint to accept all orders for a limited time, say a week or two. This method worked well for the 1998 Kennedy set.
Comments
If they are to be added to the set, just to make it fair, they should be delivered to the fulfillment center in canvas bags over rough roads.
These beautiful 70's will make the expensive dated AUs in my sets look pretty crappy. Even a BU Peace dollar set will look sorta scruffy by comparison.
Maybe if they had the same size and metal content of the original Morgan dollars, I would. But IMO they are too different to be in the same boat as the morgans from 1878-1904
My eBay page: https://www.ebay.com/usr/alvareznumismatics
NO.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Diameter and thickness, from what I have read, will be the same. And, in fact, a 1921 Morgan dollar (26.73 grams) weighs nearly identical (indistinguishable by weight when in hand) to the 2021 Morgan dollar (0.858 troy oz. of silver = ~26.68 grams).
(edit: actually assuming similar density of the 0.001 complement to the 0.999 silver, then the 2021 should weight about 26.71 grams)
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Should it be part of a Morgan registry set composition? IMO, yes. The supporting arguments so far are compelling.
There are ten different compositions of Morgan Dollar Registry sets. The 2021 Morgan Dollar would merely expand the composition of one or more of the existing ten, or add an 11th Morgan set composition.
Further, the weighting of such and addition would/should be no more than 1.00.
And lastly, given the likely preponderance of MS70 examples, the addition to a Morgan set composition would not likely be a distinguishing component in the set rankings.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
...this should definitely be a poll professor
By Law the weight will be 26.73g ...
Hmmmm.....very interesting reading all of the comments posted thus far. I'll confess that my position has waffled back and forth a few times. I don't have a dog in the fight as I don't collect Morgan or Peace dollars and don't participate in the registry sets currently. However, there a couple of points made that tip the scales for me.
1) The 2021 coins are official U.S. Mint issues bearing the name, design, and denomination of their original ancestors.
2) They are legal tender coins of the United States of America.
Whatever other arguments one wants to make for or against classification, these points are facts. Therefore, how can they not be considered part of the series they identify with? I can't and won't guess how PCGS or NGC or ??? would classify them in a "registry" but from a purely numismatic point of view I can't imagine they are anything other than Morgan and Peace dollars.
I totally get why some folks would revolt at the idea. I'll grant you, it is weird. But, these days, the brakes are completely off with the U.S. Mint/Government and nothing surprises me. Just look at the Washington quarter series. You need a spreadsheet just to keep up with it.
I'll agree that these "special" issue dollars feel like a commemorative but that's just because we don't really have much to compare them too.
As far as the composition arguments, can't go along with that because there is plenty of precedence of over the past 229 years for metallurgical changes in our coins.
The only conclusion I can come up with is they are Morgan and Peace dollars no matter how odd that seems to me.
Any Red Book contributors care to chime in?
This is a good discussion about an exciting new mint issue.
not a registry set person
not a silver dollar collector.
still like to offer an opinion.
here is one thing not yet mentioned: PCGS prefix will likely be SP for Specimen.
I've read all of the posts and I have to say that there is a very compelling arguement that these are a continuation of the earlier series.
The precedents set by 40% bicentennial coins and Ikes could eliminate the different composition concern (not to mention various compositions for cents, war nickels, etc.).
The precedents set by collector-only versions of half dollars and dollars (and W mintmarked coins, and S mintmark NP quarters) could eliminate those arguements.
It looks like the record for the longest break between issues within a series will be reclaimed from the SBAs by the Morgan dollar.
Except it is a composition variant of the original coins. > @MsMorrisine said:
Why? As far a I can tell it is just a business strike.
hm.
now you have me re-thinking.
my only reason is the NCLT status and I was thinking they were going to have a special finish.
then there's this from the web pages:
"It has a beautiful uncirculated finish."
A business strike would not be made of .999 fine silver.
No way. It's an overpriced commemorative.
the mint's silver proof set is no longer made of 90%. they use .999. Apparently it is easier and cheaper to obtain .999 blanks
Likewise we are being stuck with .999 blanks for these.
I don't understand this. What does the composition have to do with the finish?
OK, but proofs aren't intended for "business" either, so there's no contradiction.
The Internet is your friend! From Quora:
Fine silver coinage is also easier to produce - the dies last 3x longer, and there is much less downtime for cleaning the dies because the metal is so much softer. Fine silver (. 999) is too soft and malleable to survive the abuse of circulation - coins rubbing against each other and being crushed in piles.
That is why they don't use silver for circulation. That is somewhat different from the strike type. ASE's are not designated "specimen" strike but are considered "business strike", are they not?
There is no doubt these coins aren't intended for actual circulation or commerce. We can get into a semantic debate over how to define the strike, but I would expect them to get an MS designation not an SP designation.
No, they don't use silver (anymore) for circulation because it costs far less to use clad, and due to inflation the coins would be tiny. Circulating silver and gold were typically 90% alloys with 10% copper.
Yes, I'm well aware, Captain Obvious. The question is what do you wish to call the ASE strike? It is not designated a specimen strike, it is not designated a proof strike, so you would call it....???
Due to the volume of production, I imagine they will be designated MS by PCGS, although I wouldn't bet my life on it. OTOH, given the market, I believe these will receive more careful handling at the mint than standard business strike issues intended for circulation. No one is going to complain if they get a roll of brand new coins from the bank and they have some imperfections. The same won't be true for people ponying up $75 for a silver dollar.
No.
I was merely responding to what you actually wrote. Perhaps you meant to say "that is why they don't use fine silver for circulation", in which case that's what you should have written. I would call a non-proof ASE (technically) a specimen strike, but using the designation MS is perfectly fine by me. It merely indicates a lack of circulation. Ultimately, it's just a semantic argument. Coins that aren't intended for circulation shouldn't be called "business" strikes IMHO, but feel free to disagree.
Apologies to the forum at large for the digression...
Perhaps "business strike" is a description of the manufacturing process, not the intended destination of the coin?
Read my comments above. Coins minted expressly for sale to collectors almost certainly receive better treatment and handling at the mint than those intended for circulation. The number of strikes to the planchet hardly tells the entire story.
Bullion ASE get MS, what do the mint marked version from online get?
Am I correct in understanding that you are including the handling of a coin after it has been struck as part of the manufacturing process?
Yes. Before, during, and after striking. The mint is producing and delivering each product for a specific purpose and market. How a coin gets handled and packaged is part of the manufacturing process. IMHO, of course.
Even if it is, the 2021 coins would still qualify as part of the Morgan/Peace series. Precedents include the 1998-S silver Kennedy half and the 2009-PD bronze Lincoln cents.
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That would mean the dollars that were released by the treasury in the 60's were in the process of being manufactured for 60-80 years or so.
Seems like kind of a long time, but maybe that's just me.
I vote No, but I expect to be outvoted.
Now you're just being pedantic and silly. I'm out.
If, by "pedantic and silly", you mean "using the definition you provided", well- yeah.
I posted this in the 'poll' thread.... Cheers, RickO
I will not consider it part of the original series. It is being minted to commemorate the end of the series, not as a circulating coin. Purely a collectors specimen. If it were minted to circulate, part of our coinage in commerce, then I would agree it would become part of the coin series. Cheers, RickO
no the 2021 will never be used as currency but it is still a reg issue
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
What is clear to me is that this new issue will give modern collectors a direct link to the classic Morgan series. This is a huge potential positive for the market. Those that cry there is not enough interest in the hobby moving forward should accept the new series as a continuation and an opportunity for more tribute products from the Mint.
This is the main benefit of including the 2021 in the series. The benefit isn’t for the 2021. The benefit is for the older coins.
yes
Yes and no. If I look at the Morgan design, it is closer to the III2 obverse and C3 reverse (1879-1900) than the 1921 adaptations are. Very little difference in the actual design. The manufacturing process will contribute to the bulk of the qualitative differences. The way they are produced, they will not have the same luster characteristics as the originals. The planchets will be specially prepared and the dies will be polished in a much different manner than they were in 1921 or in earlier years. The detail on the die will be that of a heavily worn die, but with no orange peel effect.
If I ran the zoo, the dies would be much crisper than I'm seeing. They'd be polished once before use on a 12" basin like they were in the 1880s, such that we'd be given the DMPL coinage that can be so impressive. Dies would be used for enough strikes that the PL effect started to fade, giving more lustrous coins. The mint marks and privy marks would be struck by hand, and maybe we'd see RPMs. Planchets would be prepared more like they are for today's commemoratives, but only to ensure there aren't defects preserved on the high points of the coin. The Peace dollar dies would not be polished to a DMPL finish, just finished as they were in 1921. The high relief design in full relief with luster as originally produced would be stunning in comparison to the finish that we will see. Alas, I don't run the zoo, nor do I advise those that do.
TL;DR: If I were in charge, they'd look as though they were actually part of the original series and not a commemorative.
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Most of the original Morgan (and Peace) dollars were not minted to circulate either. Their excessive mintage was politically motivated, and as a consequence they were warehoused by the government for decades.
Do you consider the circulation-strike "S" ATB quarters to be a legitimate part of the National Park quarter series? Or the more recent Kennedy halves? They weren't minted to circulate either.
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I agree. Post-2001 Kennedy halves and circulation-quality "S" mint ATB quarters are business strikes that are not intended for circulation.
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I’m going to have a MS70 Morgan
Seriously I don’t think the mints work will be close enough for me to want one. Although the reverse of the San Fran Fran comm is pretty nice. I guess I could be surprised
Never thought I could afford such a coin. Maybe I can find a MS70PL or Dcam.
Martin
@Overdate said:
"@ricko said: 'I posted this in the 'poll' thread.... Cheers, RickO
I will not consider it part of the original series. It is being minted to commemorate the end of the series, not as a circulating coin. Purely a collectors specimen. If it were minted to circulate, part of our coinage in commerce, then I would agree it would become part of the coin series. Cheers, RickO'
Most of the original Morgan (and Peace) dollars were not minted to circulate either. Their excessive mintage was politically motivated, and as a consequence they were warehoused by the government for decades.
Do you consider the circulation-strike "S" ATB quarters to be a legitimate part of the National Park quarter series? Or the more recent Kennedy halves? They weren't minted to circulate either"
I think @ricko is looking at the big picture. The 2021 is a commemorative minted 100 years after the fact with a silver content roughly 20 times face value of the coin. It is very detached from the original series.
So what if a lot of Morgans sat in bank vaults and did not circulate? Millions did circulate, and millions still exist in well circulated condition.
Referring to the 'S' ATB quarters or even the current Kennedys is a bit of a red herring. The "S" ATBs can be thought of a special collector issue closely tied to the currently circulating coins. The non circulating Kennedys are minted in large quantity and are basically worth face. They are just one step away from a circulating issue, compared to the 2021 Morgan which is many, many steps away. As I said previously, the current Kennedy halves are somewhat akin to the later 3 cent pieces or the later Trade Dollars.
You spoke and the Mint listened! The household order limit has been lowered from 25 to 10 for the following products:
• 21XC Morgan Dollar with “CC” privy mark
• 21XD Morgan Dollar with “O” privy mark
• 21XF Morgan Dollar (S) mint mark
• 21XG Morgan Dollar (D) mint mark
• 21XE Morgan Dollar no privy or mint mark
• 21XH Peace Dollar no privy or mint mark
Please visit https://catalog.usmint.gov/product-schedule/ for more information about each product.
A household order limit of 1 or 2 would be even better.
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Better for who?
Better for collectors who want a fair chance to successfully order a coin or two from the Mint for their collections before a premature sellout. Even better would be for the Mint to accept all orders for a limited time, say a week or two. This method worked well for the 1998 Kennedy set.
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