@MasonG said:
How many different types/denominations of coins intended for circulation remained sitting in bags in the treasury for 80 years, and ultimately never did enter circulation?
The point is not never circulated. The point is never intended to be circulated. In this case (2021 Morgans) the legislation is clear that they are commemorative coins.
And State Quarters?
And proof coinage?
"Commemorative" is not compelling. Then 1895 Morgans are also not part of the series.
State quarters were minted for circulation. Proof coinage was not and technically would not be part of a series set.
And again, how much are you selling those 2021 Morgans for?
I told you. Read more carefully. $100.
And what does the MARKET price of those coins have to do with anything? Do you want to buy some?
Excuse me but saying "If these are $100 commemoratives or $100 "original series", they are $100 coins." is NOT telling me you are selling the coins for $100. But the fact that you are selling them tells me you have a financial motivation to drive the idea that these commemorative coins are part of the Morgan series when the FACTS regarding the legislation and striking of these coins (100 years after the series was end, different material content, weight, finish, etc.)
In your libelous imagination. I buy wholesale and sell retail. I don't care WHY the price is what it is. I don't hold inventory, so I don't need them to go up. Only COLLECTORS who are holding coins care what the long term outlook is.
I've already stated numerous times in this forum that I believe these will go DOWN in value. Did that sound like I'm hyping them.
What we have learned, by your own words and rules, is that your statement that toned coins are "alluring" is absolute horse hockey. You're just hoping toned coins do you can get bailed out of your holdings.
You have no clothes, sir.
You purchased the coins to sell them for a profit. I'm guessing some of the individuals you sold to are still buyers you hope to sell to in the future so you continue to hype the coins you sold. You're not going to now admit after the fact that the coins you hyped prior to selling them are really not part of the series as you said prior to selling off your inventory.
The thread you are referring to is about the allure of BU high grade MS coins. Please go back through that tread and find the post where I said anything about toned coins being alluring. I'd tell you to hold your breathe while you're doing it but I wish no ill on anyone.
The 2021 Morgans are commeratives, different material, weight and finish versus the coins in the series. Buy and enjoy them as commeratives and stop with the hype about they are part of the series.
Your accusations regarding his hyping the coins, are baseless.
The accusations are accurate. He has continued to hype the idea these coins are part of the series. There is zero factual or rational basis for those claims. The legislation authorizing them says the are commemorative coins. The coins are different in material and weight. The have a similar design but very different finish. They were never intended for circulation.
Having a different opinion from yours isn’t the same as “hype”. I’ve read his posts and not detected any hype. Quote the “hype”.
A number of other posters have expressed much stronger views than he has, but I haven’t seen you accuse them of hype,
I've addressed him in particular because he has addressed me specifically.
The definition of hype is "to promote". He has promoted the idea that these coins are a continuation of the series. He has purchased and sold these coins for profit. Sellers promote the products they sell. In this case the sellers "opinion" is in line with promoting the coins to maximize his profit so he has a motivation beyond the pure collecting aspect to promote the coins as a continuation of the series IN SPITE OF FACTS that say otherwise. Everyone can have any opinion but everyone's opinion doesn't necessarily line up with the facts. You can have the opinion that the Earth is flat in spite of the facts that say otherwise.
You didn’t show me any hype from him. I don’t think of “hype” as merely promoting. And, I don’t think you even showed that he promoted the coins.
Just about every post he has made in this thread promoted (hyped) the idea that these coins are part of the Morgan series.
For whatever reason, you seem to be misinterpreting his intent and words. In my opinion, he’s neither promoted nor hyped the coins.
The floor is yours. I’m done with my part in beating this dead horse.
You're entitled to your opinion but the facts say otherwise.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@MasonG said:
How many different types/denominations of coins intended for circulation remained sitting in bags in the treasury for 80 years, and ultimately never did enter circulation?
The point is not never circulated. The point is never intended to be circulated. In this case (2021 Morgans) the legislation is clear that they are commemorative coins.
And State Quarters?
And proof coinage?
"Commemorative" is not compelling. Then 1895 Morgans are also not part of the series.
State quarters were minted for circulation. Proof coinage was not and technically would not be part of a series set.
And again, how much are you selling those 2021 Morgans for?
I told you. Read more carefully. $100.
And what does the MARKET price of those coins have to do with anything? Do you want to buy some?
Excuse me but saying "If these are $100 commemoratives or $100 "original series", they are $100 coins." is NOT telling me you are selling the coins for $100. But the fact that you are selling them tells me you have a financial motivation to drive the idea that these commemorative coins are part of the Morgan series when the FACTS regarding the legislation and striking of these coins (100 years after the series was end, different material content, weight, finish, etc.)
In your libelous imagination. I buy wholesale and sell retail. I don't care WHY the price is what it is. I don't hold inventory, so I don't need them to go up. Only COLLECTORS who are holding coins care what the long term outlook is.
I've already stated numerous times in this forum that I believe these will go DOWN in value. Did that sound like I'm hyping them.
What we have learned, by your own words and rules, is that your statement that toned coins are "alluring" is absolute horse hockey. You're just hoping toned coins do you can get bailed out of your holdings.
You have no clothes, sir.
You purchased the coins to sell them for a profit. I'm guessing some of the individuals you sold to are still buyers you hope to sell to in the future so you continue to hype the coins you sold. You're not going to now admit after the fact that the coins you hyped prior to selling them are really not part of the series as you said prior to selling off your inventory.
The thread you are referring to is about the allure of BU high grade MS coins. Please go back through that tread and find the post where I said anything about toned coins being alluring. I'd tell you to hold your breathe while you're doing it but I wish no ill on anyone.
The 2021 Morgans are commeratives, different material, weight and finish versus the coins in the series. Buy and enjoy them as commeratives and stop with the hype about they are part of the series.
Your accusations regarding his hyping the coins, are baseless.
The accusations are accurate. He has continued to hype the idea these coins are part of the series. There is zero factual or rational basis for those claims. The legislation authorizing them says the are commemorative coins. The coins are different in material and weight. The have a similar design but very different finish. They were never intended for circulation.
Having a different opinion from yours isn’t the same as “hype”. I’ve read his posts and not detected any hype. Quote the “hype”.
A number of other posters have expressed much stronger views than he has, but I haven’t seen you accuse them of hype,
I've addressed him in particular because he has addressed me specifically.
The definition of hype is "to promote". He has promoted the idea that these coins are a continuation of the series. He has purchased and sold these coins for profit. Sellers promote the products they sell. In this case the sellers "opinion" is in line with promoting the coins to maximize his profit so he has a motivation beyond the pure collecting aspect to promote the coins as a continuation of the series IN SPITE OF FACTS that say otherwise. Everyone can have any opinion but everyone's opinion doesn't necessarily line up with the facts. You can have the opinion that the Earth is flat in spite of the facts that say otherwise.
You didn’t show me any hype from him. I don’t think of “hype” as merely promoting. And, I don’t think you even showed that he promoted the coins.
Just about every post he has made in this thread promoted (hyped) the idea that these coins are part of the Morgan series.
For whatever reason, you seem to be misinterpreting his intent and words. In my opinion, he’s neither promoted nor hyped the coins.
The floor is yours. I’m done with my part in beating this dead horse.
@MasonG said:
How many different types/denominations of coins intended for circulation remained sitting in bags in the treasury for 80 years, and ultimately never did enter circulation?
The point is not never circulated. The point is never intended to be circulated. In this case (2021 Morgans) the legislation is clear that they are commemorative coins.
And State Quarters?
And proof coinage?
"Commemorative" is not compelling. Then 1895 Morgans are also not part of the series.
State quarters were minted for circulation. Proof coinage was not and technically would not be part of a series set.
And again, how much are you selling those 2021 Morgans for?
I told you. Read more carefully. $100.
And what does the MARKET price of those coins have to do with anything? Do you want to buy some?
Excuse me but saying "If these are $100 commemoratives or $100 "original series", they are $100 coins." is NOT telling me you are selling the coins for $100. But the fact that you are selling them tells me you have a financial motivation to drive the idea that these commemorative coins are part of the Morgan series when the FACTS regarding the legislation and striking of these coins (100 years after the series was end, different material content, weight, finish, etc.)
In your libelous imagination. I buy wholesale and sell retail. I don't care WHY the price is what it is. I don't hold inventory, so I don't need them to go up. Only COLLECTORS who are holding coins care what the long term outlook is.
I've already stated numerous times in this forum that I believe these will go DOWN in value. Did that sound like I'm hyping them.
What we have learned, by your own words and rules, is that your statement that toned coins are "alluring" is absolute horse hockey. You're just hoping toned coins do you can get bailed out of your holdings.
You have no clothes, sir.
You purchased the coins to sell them for a profit. I'm guessing some of the individuals you sold to are still buyers you hope to sell to in the future so you continue to hype the coins you sold. You're not going to now admit after the fact that the coins you hyped prior to selling them are really not part of the series as you said prior to selling off your inventory.
The thread you are referring to is about the allure of BU high grade MS coins. Please go back through that tread and find the post where I said anything about toned coins being alluring. I'd tell you to hold your breathe while you're doing it but I wish no ill on anyone.
The 2021 Morgans are commeratives, different material, weight and finish versus the coins in the series. Buy and enjoy them as commeratives and stop with the hype about they are part of the series.
Your accusations regarding his hyping the coins, are baseless.
The accusations are accurate. He has continued to hype the idea these coins are part of the series. There is zero factual or rational basis for those claims. The legislation authorizing them says the are commemorative coins. The coins are different in material and weight. The have a similar design but very different finish. They were never intended for circulation.
Having a different opinion from yours isn’t the same as “hype”. I’ve read his posts and not detected any hype. Quote the “hype”.
A number of other posters have expressed much stronger views than he has, but
For whatever reason, you seem to be misinterpreting his intent and words. In my opinion, he’s neither promoted nor hyped the coins.
The floor is yours. I’m done with my part in beating this dead horse.
You didn't know that you couldn't win? Lol. Did you forget that he came to our consciousness in the infamous grading standards thread? Has anyone yet forgotten the "original surfaces" debate that waged for several hundred posts?
I sell Mint products. I also routinely tell people not to buy 95% of them for 2 years after release. I have never once hyped a coin much less a Mint release. Let him have his little "victory". He's exposed himself and none of us are the worse for wear.
@jmlanzaf said:
You didn't know that you couldn't win? Lol. Did you forget that he came to our consciousness in the infamous grading standards thread? Has anyone yet forgotten the "original surfaces" debate that waged for several hundred posts?
How'd that one turn out? I bailed before the end, is everybody still wrong?
@MasonG said:
I have, on occasion, argued in favor of a position I did not actually prefer. I'm sure I'm the only one who's ever done that, though.
I really haven't taken a definite position on them. I'm also not sure it matters whether they are part of the series or not. But I don't find the exclusion arguments definitive.
Composition? Lincoln cents have had 3 different compositions. Washington Quarters have had 3 different.
Commemorative? All proofs are commemorative. 1932 Washington quarters are commemorative. Bicentennial quarters and every quarter since 1999 have been commemorative.
Gap in production? Original Morgans had a 17 year gap. SBAs had an 18 year gap.
@jmlanzaf said:
You didn't know that you couldn't win? Lol. Did you forget that he came to our consciousness in the infamous grading standards thread? Has anyone yet forgotten the "original surfaces" debate that waged for several hundred posts?
How'd that one turn out? I bailed before the end, is everybody still wrong?
@jmlanzaf said:
I really haven't taken a definite position on them. I'm also not sure it matters whether they are part of the series or not. But I don't find the exclusion arguments less than definitive.
@jmlanzaf said:
I really haven't taken a definite position on them. I'm also not sure it matters whether they are part of the series or not. But I don't find the exclusion arguments less than definitive.
Still hyping? Figures.
Lol. Sorry, I was trying to make a reasoned argument. I can't help myself.
On the bright side, I may be out of inventory tomorrow and then I can come back here and say the same thing and they'll just have to believe me. Right?
@MasonG said:
How many different types/denominations of coins intended for circulation remained sitting in bags in the treasury for 80 years, and ultimately never did enter circulation?
The point is not never circulated. The point is never intended to be circulated. In this case (2021 Morgans) the legislation is clear that they are commemorative coins.
And State Quarters?
And proof coinage?
"Commemorative" is not compelling. Then 1895 Morgans are also not part of the series.
State quarters were minted for circulation. Proof coinage was not and technically would not be part of a series set.
And again, how much are you selling those 2021 Morgans for?
I told you. Read more carefully. $100.
And what does the MARKET price of those coins have to do with anything? Do you want to buy some?
Excuse me but saying "If these are $100 commemoratives or $100 "original series", they are $100 coins." is NOT telling me you are selling the coins for $100. But the fact that you are selling them tells me you have a financial motivation to drive the idea that these commemorative coins are part of the Morgan series when the FACTS regarding the legislation and striking of these coins (100 years after the series was end, different material content, weight, finish, etc.)
In your libelous imagination. I buy wholesale and sell retail. I don't care WHY the price is what it is. I don't hold inventory, so I don't need them to go up. Only COLLECTORS who are holding coins care what the long term outlook is.
I've already stated numerous times in this forum that I believe these will go DOWN in value. Did that sound like I'm hyping them.
What we have learned, by your own words and rules, is that your statement that toned coins are "alluring" is absolute horse hockey. You're just hoping toned coins do you can get bailed out of your holdings.
You have no clothes, sir.
You purchased the coins to sell them for a profit. I'm guessing some of the individuals you sold to are still buyers you hope to sell to in the future so you continue to hype the coins you sold. You're not going to now admit after the fact that the coins you hyped prior to selling them are really not part of the series as you said prior to selling off your inventory.
The thread you are referring to is about the allure of BU high grade MS coins. Please go back through that tread and find the post where I said anything about toned coins being alluring. I'd tell you to hold your breathe while you're doing it but I wish no ill on anyone.
The 2021 Morgans are commeratives, different material, weight and finish versus the coins in the series. Buy and enjoy them as commeratives and stop with the hype about they are part of the series.
Your accusations regarding his hyping the coins, are baseless.
The accusations are accurate. He has continued to hype the idea these coins are part of the series. There is zero factual or rational basis for those claims. The legislation authorizing them says the are commemorative coins. The coins are different in material and weight. The have a similar design but very different finish. They were never intended for circulation.
Having a different opinion from yours isn’t the same as “hype”. I’ve read his posts and not detected any hype. Quote the “hype”.
A number of other posters have expressed much stronger views than he has, but I haven’t seen you accuse them of hype,
I've addressed him in particular because he has addressed me specifically.
The definition of hype is "to promote". He has promoted the idea that these coins are a continuation of the series. He has purchased and sold these coins for profit. Sellers promote the products they sell. In this case the sellers "opinion" is in line with promoting the coins to maximize his profit so he has a motivation beyond the pure collecting aspect to promote the coins as a continuation of the series IN SPITE OF FACTS that say otherwise. Everyone can have any opinion but everyone's opinion doesn't necessarily line up with the facts. You can have the opinion that the Earth is flat in spite of the facts that say otherwise.
You didn’t show me any hype from him. I don’t think of “hype” as merely promoting. And, I don’t think you even showed that he promoted the coins.
Then you don't know the definition of hype> @jmlanzaf said:
@MasonG said:
How many different types/denominations of coins intended for circulation remained sitting in bags in the treasury for 80 years, and ultimately never did enter circulation?
The point is not never circulated. The point is never intended to be circulated. In this case (2021 Morgans) the legislation is clear that they are commemorative coins.
And State Quarters?
And proof coinage?
"Commemorative" is not compelling. Then 1895 Morgans are also not part of the series.
State quarters were minted for circulation. Proof coinage was not and technically would not be part of a series set.
And again, how much are you selling those 2021 Morgans for?
I told you. Read more carefully. $100.
And what does the MARKET price of those coins have to do with anything? Do you want to buy some?
Excuse me but saying "If these are $100 commemoratives or $100 "original series", they are $100 coins." is NOT telling me you are selling the coins for $100. But the fact that you are selling them tells me you have a financial motivation to drive the idea that these commemorative coins are part of the Morgan series when the FACTS regarding the legislation and striking of these coins (100 years after the series was end, different material content, weight, finish, etc.)
In your libelous imagination. I buy wholesale and sell retail. I don't care WHY the price is what it is. I don't hold inventory, so I don't need them to go up. Only COLLECTORS who are holding coins care what the long term outlook is.
I've already stated numerous times in this forum that I believe these will go DOWN in value. Did that sound like I'm hyping them.
What we have learned, by your own words and rules, is that your statement that toned coins are "alluring" is absolute horse hockey. You're just hoping toned coins do you can get bailed out of your holdings.
You have no clothes, sir.
You purchased the coins to sell them for a profit. I'm guessing some of the individuals you sold to are still buyers you hope to sell to in the future so you continue to hype the coins you sold. You're not going to now admit after the fact that the coins you hyped prior to selling them are really not part of the series as you said prior to selling off your inventory.
The thread you are referring to is about the allure of BU high grade MS coins. Please go back through that tread and find the post where I said anything about toned coins being alluring. I'd tell you to hold your breathe while you're doing it but I wish no ill on anyone.
The 2021 Morgans are commeratives, different material, weight and finish versus the coins in the series. Buy and enjoy them as commeratives and stop with the hype about they are part of the series.
Your accusations regarding his hyping the coins, are baseless.
The accusations are accurate. He has continued to hype the idea these coins are part of the series. There is zero factual or rational basis for those claims. The legislation authorizing them says the are commemorative coins. The coins are different in material and weight. The have a similar design but very different finish. They were never intended for circulation.
Having a different opinion from yours isn’t the same as “hype”. I’ve read his posts and not detected any hype. Quote the “hype”.
A number of other posters have expressed much stronger views than he has, but I haven’t seen you accuse them of hype,
I've addressed him in particular because he has addressed me specifically.
The definition of hype is "to promote". He has promoted the idea that these coins are a continuation of the series. He has purchased and sold these coins for profit. Sellers promote the products they sell. In this case the sellers "opinion" is in line with promoting the coins to maximize his profit so he has a motivation beyond the pure collecting aspect to promote the coins as a continuation of the series IN SPITE OF FACTS that say otherwise. Everyone can have any opinion but everyone's opinion doesn't necessarily line up with the facts. You can have the opinion that the Earth is flat in spite of the facts that say otherwise.
You didn’t show me any hype from him. I don’t think of “hype” as merely promoting. And, I don’t think you even showed that he promoted the coins.
Just about every post he has made in this thread promoted (hyped) the idea that these coins are part of the Morgan series.
For whatever reason, you seem to be misinterpreting his intent and words. In my opinion, he’s neither promoted nor hyped the coins.
The floor is yours. I’m done with my part in beating this dead horse.
@MasonG said:
How many different types/denominations of coins intended for circulation remained sitting in bags in the treasury for 80 years, and ultimately never did enter circulation?
The point is not never circulated. The point is never intended to be circulated. In this case (2021 Morgans) the legislation is clear that they are commemorative coins.
And State Quarters?
And proof coinage?
"Commemorative" is not compelling. Then 1895 Morgans are also not part of the series.
State quarters were minted for circulation. Proof coinage was not and technically would not be part of a series set.
And again, how much are you selling those 2021 Morgans for?
I told you. Read more carefully. $100.
And what does the MARKET price of those coins have to do with anything? Do you want to buy some?
Excuse me but saying "If these are $100 commemoratives or $100 "original series", they are $100 coins." is NOT telling me you are selling the coins for $100. But the fact that you are selling them tells me you have a financial motivation to drive the idea that these commemorative coins are part of the Morgan series when the FACTS regarding the legislation and striking of these coins (100 years after the series was end, different material content, weight, finish, etc.)
In your libelous imagination. I buy wholesale and sell retail. I don't care WHY the price is what it is. I don't hold inventory, so I don't need them to go up. Only COLLECTORS who are holding coins care what the long term outlook is.
I've already stated numerous times in this forum that I believe these will go DOWN in value. Did that sound like I'm hyping them.
What we have learned, by your own words and rules, is that your statement that toned coins are "alluring" is absolute horse hockey. You're just hoping toned coins do you can get bailed out of your holdings.
You have no clothes, sir.
You purchased the coins to sell them for a profit. I'm guessing some of the individuals you sold to are still buyers you hope to sell to in the future so you continue to hype the coins you sold. You're not going to now admit after the fact that the coins you hyped prior to selling them are really not part of the series as you said prior to selling off your inventory.
The thread you are referring to is about the allure of BU high grade MS coins. Please go back through that tread and find the post where I said anything about toned coins being alluring. I'd tell you to hold your breathe while you're doing it but I wish no ill on anyone.
The 2021 Morgans are commeratives, different material, weight and finish versus the coins in the series. Buy and enjoy them as commeratives and stop with the hype about they are part of the series.
Your accusations regarding his hyping the coins, are baseless.
The accusations are accurate. He has continued to hype the idea these coins are part of the series. There is zero factual or rational basis for those claims. The legislation authorizing them says the are commemorative coins. The coins are different in material and weight. The have a similar design but very different finish. They were never intended for circulation.
Having a different opinion from yours isn’t the same as “hype”. I’ve read his posts and not detected any hype. Quote the “hype”.
A number of other posters have expressed much stronger views than he has, but
For whatever reason, you seem to be misinterpreting his intent and words. In my opinion, he’s neither promoted nor hyped the coins.
The floor is yours. I’m done with my part in beating this dead horse.
You didn't know that you couldn't win? Lol. Did you forget that he came to our consciousness in the infamous grading standards thread? Has anyone yet forgotten the "original surfaces" debate that waged for several hundred posts?
I sell Mint products. I also routinely tell people not to buy 95% of them for 2 years after release. I have never once hyped a coin much less a Mint release. Let him have his little "victory". He's exposed himself and none of us are the worse for wear.
Yes, you sell Mint products. You don't buy and sell them to lose money. You buy and sell them to make a profit. You promote (hype) the products you sell. Your response to just about every post that gave reasons why these Morgans were not part of the series was to counter that claim. If you're trying to make the case that whether or not these coins were considered part of the series would not impact the demand/price you get an F in economics 101.
Those people you tell not to buy a product, is that before or after you've exhausted your inventory?
Now back to the FACTS. According to the legislation authorizing them these coins are commemoratives. The were minted 100 years after the series was ended and not as a continuation of the series. The specifications of the coins are difference (composition, weight and finish). Your attempt to counter each point by point to an example of where exceptions occurred with business strike coins (going from silver to clad, state quarter designs, disruption of production in isolated instances, etc.) don't counter the combination of reasons these Morgans are not part of the Morgan series.
For some reason you continue promoting (hyping) that idea. Numismatic orthodoxy? Profit? Save face after selling off your inventory?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
[...]
Now back to the FACTS. According to the legislation authorizing them these coins are commemoratives.
[...]
Respectfully, I do not think this statement is completely accurate.
The "1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act" (Public Law 116-286) uses a variation of the word "commemorative" twice (i.e., section 2.1 and section 2.6). In both cases, the word is used as a verb that means to remember and honor.
As previously communicated here by @cagcrisp, the term "commemorative coin" has a specific meaning at the Mint (i.e., 'celebrates/honors' AND raises funds for a specific cause). The point - a coin can commemorate something without officially being a "commemorative coin".
Here is some more information that supports my position:
~ The "Commemorative Coin Programs" page at the Mint site lists the "commemorative coins" by year. Note that the Morgan and Peace dollars are not listed for 2021.
~ A recent report on "commemorative coins" from the 'Congressional Research Service' says:
"While the 2021 Morgan and Peace Dollars coins commemorate the 100th anniversaries of each coin, they are not technically considered commemorative coins according to traditional definitions of that term. Commemorative coins, as defined in this report, by the U.S. Mint, and by the Commemorative Coin Reform Act (CCRA), are authorized by Congress to “celebrate and honor American people, places, events, and institutions” and “help raise money for important causes.”80 The 2021 Morgan and Peace dollars are differentiated from other commemorative coins because proceeds from their sale are not statutorily designated for a specific recipient group. They are solely minted to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the coins, not to raise money." Source (bottom of page #24)
Note - I realize that PCGS has classified these coins as "modern silver and clad commemoratives, MS". I an unable to explain why they did this.
For the record, they have also classified other recent non-commemorative coins as "commemorative". For example:
~ 2020-W $10 Mayflower 400th Anniversary Reverse Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #838048)
~ 2020-W $10 Mayflower 400th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #838054)
~ 2020-W $25 End of WWII 75th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #837925) Source
Again, since these releases are technically not "commemorative coins", I am unable to explain their rationale.
@MetroD said: @pmh1nic said:
[...]
Now back to the FACTS. According to the legislation authorizing them these coins are commemoratives.
[...]
Respectfully, I do not think this statement is completely accurate.
The "1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act" (Public Law 116-286) uses a variation of the word "commemorative" twice (i.e., section 2.1 and section 2.6). In both cases, the word is used as a verb that means to remember and honor.
As previously communicated here by @cagcrisp, the term "commemorative coin" has a specific meaning at the Mint (i.e., 'celebrates/honors' AND raises funds for a specific cause). The point - a coin can commemorate something without officially being a "commemorative coin".
Here is some more information that supports my position:
~ The "Commemorative Coin Programs" page at the Mint site lists the "commemorative coins" by year. Note that the Morgan and Peace dollars are not listed for 2021.
~ A recent report on "commemorative coins" from the 'Congressional Research Service' says:
"While the 2021 Morgan and Peace Dollars coins commemorate the 100th anniversaries of each coin, they are not technically considered commemorative coins according to traditional definitions of that term. Commemorative coins, as defined in this report, by the U.S. Mint, and by the Commemorative Coin Reform Act (CCRA), are authorized by Congress to “celebrate and honor American people, places, events, and institutions” and “help raise money for important causes.”80 The 2021 Morgan and Peace dollars are differentiated from other commemorative coins because proceeds from their sale are not statutorily designated for a specific recipient group. They are solely minted to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the coins, not to raise money." Source (bottom of page #24)
Note - I realize that PCGS has classified these coins as "modern silver and clad commemoratives, MS". I an unable to explain why they did this.
For the record, they have also classified other recent non-commemorative coins as "commemorative". For example:
~ 2020-W $10 Mayflower 400th Anniversary Reverse Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #838048)
~ 2020-W $10 Mayflower 400th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #838054)
~ 2020-W $25 End of WWII 75th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #837925) Source
Again, since these releases are technically not "commemorative coins", I am unable to explain their rationale.
Very interesting.
[And factual... which you'll probably be punished for. Lol]
@pmh1nic said:
[...]
Now back to the FACTS. According to the legislation authorizing them these coins are commemoratives.
[...]
Respectfully, I do not think this statement is completely accurate.
The "1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act" (Public Law 116-286) uses a variation of the word "commemorative" twice (i.e., section 2.1 and section 2.6). In both cases, the word is used as a verb that means to remember and honor.
As previously communicated here by @cagcrisp, the term "commemorative coin" has a specific meaning at the Mint (i.e., 'celebrates/honors' AND raises funds for a specific cause). The point - a coin can commemorate something without officially being a "commemorative coin".
Here is some more information that supports my position:
~ The "Commemorative Coin Programs" page at the Mint site lists the "commemorative coins" by year. Note that the Morgan and Peace dollars are not listed for 2021.
~ A recent report on "commemorative coins" from the 'Congressional Research Service' says:
"While the 2021 Morgan and Peace Dollars coins commemorate the 100th anniversaries of each coin, they are not technically considered commemorative coins according to traditional definitions of that term. Commemorative coins, as defined in this report, by the U.S. Mint, and by the Commemorative Coin Reform Act (CCRA), are authorized by Congress to “celebrate and honor American people, places, events, and institutions” and “help raise money for important causes.”80 The 2021 Morgan and Peace dollars are differentiated from other commemorative coins because proceeds from their sale are not statutorily designated for a specific recipient group. They are solely minted to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the coins, not to raise money." Source (bottom of page #24)
Note - I realize that PCGS has classified these coins as "modern silver and clad commemoratives, MS". I an unable to explain why they did this.
For the record, they have also classified other recent non-commemorative coins as "commemorative". For example:
~ 2020-W $10 Mayflower 400th Anniversary Reverse Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #838048)
~ 2020-W $10 Mayflower 400th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #838054)
~ 2020-W $25 End of WWII 75th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #837925) Source
Again, since these releases are technically not "commemorative coins", I am unable to explain their rationale.
The key phrase in your post is "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins". Being differentiated doesn't negate the fact that they are commemorative coins. I can differentiate items on various levels and yet they are still associated on other levels. The function of the coin as stated in the legislation is to commerate. That is the descriptive word used in the legislation. How others outside the legislation describes them doesn’t alter the legislative use of the word commemorative.
The other factors also have a bearing on the issue. These Morgans were struck 100 years after the discontinuation of the original Morgans. There is nothing in the legislation that indicates these are a continuation of that series. In fact there were other coins struck that replace the Morgans as the circulation dollar coins. The coins are a different construction (metal, weight and finish). These are not regular business strike coins. All of these factors weigh against the 2021 being considered a continuation of the Morgan series.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
BTW, I appreciate your research into these coins. A point of interest is the presentation made by Rep. Mark E. Amodei, R-Nev. during the presentations of a CC coin to the Nevada State Museum in Carson City.
“The historical significance of the Carson City Mint is an integral part of who we are,” Amodei said Sept. 14. “Today, we celebrated the 100th anniversary of the last Morgan Dollar minted in the U.S. It is only fitting that the Carson City Mint played such a significant role in numismatic history and in this Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollar Coin Program."
This is the interpretation of what these coins are by a representative that voted for the legislation authorizing them. His understanding of that authorization is that they are commemorative coins.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Right now, these should be considered merely a popular and money-making part of the Mint's product line.
Popular with both collectors and flippers for obvious reasons. If these continue for many years, they will become a series onto themselves, and obviously lose the commemoration/anniversary status, like the Washington quarter did.
I look forward to seeing and owning a proof Morgan next year, but why San Francisco?? Were any proof Morgans or Peace dollars ever minted in SF?
Breaking that tradition indicates to me that these are neither a continuation nor a commemoration, but a new series and a well-timed marketing gimmick. One that I approve of.
Good point. I also think a new series is the way to go. Those who believe they are a continuation of the series are going to hit a brick wall when the reverse proofs come out. Going to be interesting to hear that justification. “ 😉
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Those who believe they are a continuation of the series are going to hit a brick wall when the reverse proofs come out. Going to be interesting to hear that justification. “ 😉
Any more interesting or difficult than justifying a gold Kennedy half dollar?
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Those who believe they are a continuation of the series are going to hit a brick wall when the reverse proofs come out. Going to be interesting to hear that justification. “ 😉
Any more interesting or difficult than justifying a gold Kennedy half dollar?
Agreed. I'm not sure why a finish difference makes a difference in how you view them. All currently circulating coins have been issued in multiple finishes including proofs, reverse proofs, enhanced uncirculated.
Maybe it's a riddle:
Q: When is a Morgan dollar not a Morgan dollar?
A: When it's a reverse proof Morgan dollar.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Those who believe they are a continuation of the series are going to hit a brick wall when the reverse proofs come out. Going to be interesting to hear that justification. “ 😉
Any more interesting or difficult than justifying a gold Kennedy half dollar?
Agreed. I'm not sure why a finish difference makes a difference in how you view them. All currently circulating coins have been issued in multiple finishes including proofs, reverse proofs, enhanced uncirculated.
Maybe it's a riddle:
Q: When is a Morgan dollar not a Morgan dollar?
A: When it's a reverse proof Morgan dollar.
[Hype! Hype! Baloney! Hype! Hype!]
Because it's not JUST the finish difference being considered. Legislation, timing, material, weight, finish all have a bearing on the discussion. The legislation identifies them as commeratives. The statement posted by MetroD refers to them as commeratives. The representative that voted for the legislation authorizing them referred to them as commeratives. So it's not just a matter of the finish.
Did you get another shipment in you're trying to sell?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
The key phrase in your post is "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins". Being differentiated doesn't negate the fact that they are commemorative coins. I can differentiate items on various levels and yet they are still associated on other levels. [...]
>
Valid point.
The paragraph that I cited was from a 'Congressional Research Service" report. As such, I e-mailed the author for clarification on the issue you raised. IF he responds, I will post the information in this thread.
@pmh1nic said:
[...] The function of the coin as stated in the legislation is to commerate. That is the descriptive word used in the legislation. How others outside the legislation describes them doesn’t alter the legislative use of the word commemorative.
I think that we are experiencing an issue with terminology. In my mind, there are at least two ways to define a "commemorative coin".
1) the colloquial way. Here, the term refers to a coin that 'celebrates/honors' a person, place, event, or institution.
Example: 2020-W $25 End of WWII 75th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (Mint 20XG; PCGS #837925)
This coin 'celebrates/honors/commemorates' the 75th anniversary of the end of WWII.
2) the Mint way. Here, the term also refers to a coin that 'celebrates/honors' a person, place, event, or institution.
In addition, it raises funds for a related cause via a surcharge.
Example: the upcoming 2022-W $5 Purple Heart Proof Gold Coin (Mint 22CA)
This coin 'celebrates/honors/commemorates' the Purple Heart program. It also raises funds for the "National Purple Heart Hall of Honor'.
You are absolutely correct. The '1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act' does include the words "commemorating" (section 2.1) and "commemorate" (section 2.6). I believe that this makes the coin "commemorative" in the colloquial sense. However, I do not think that the use of these terms automatically makes a coin "commemorative" as defined by the Mint.
At this juncture, it might be constructive to compare the legislation for a Mint-designated "commemorative coin" to one that is not. Let's use the "National Purple Heart Hall of Honor Commemorative Coin Act" (Public Law 116-247) and the "1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act" (Public Law 116-286). The former is is Mint-designated "commemorative coin", while the later is not. A quick comparison reveals the following:
~ they both use variations of "commemorative" in the body of the legislation. So, this does not appear to be meaningful in terms of differentiation.
~ the Mint-designated "commemorative coin" includes the word "commemorative coin" in its official "short title", while the other does not.
~ the Mint-designated "commemorative coin" includes an entire section that details the surcharge (section #7), while the other does not.
@pmh1nic said:
BTW, I appreciate your research into these coins. A point of interest is the presentation made by Rep. Mark E. Amodei, R-Nev. during the presentations of a CC coin to the Nevada State Museum in Carson City.
“The historical significance of the Carson City Mint is an integral part of who we are,” Amodei said Sept. 14. “Today, we celebrated the 100th anniversary of the last Morgan Dollar minted in the U.S. It is only fitting that the Carson City Mint played such a significant role in numismatic history and in this Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollar Coin Program."
This is the interpretation of what these coins are by a representative that voted for the legislation authorizing them. His understanding of that authorization is that they are commemorative coins.
Please refer to my earlier point about the different definitions for "commemorative coins" (i.e., colloquial vs. Mint).
Yes, a politician used the word "commemorative" at a presentation ceremony for a 2021 Morgan coin. IMHO, this does not make the program "commemorative" per the Mint definition. He was most likely using the colloquial definition.
The Mint definition of "commemorative coin" is most likely to be used by people linked to the Mint, and in numismatic circles. Hence my rationale for posting about it here.
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
The United States Mint does NOT consider these coins as commemoratives...
End of Story...
Commemoratives 21CA 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM GOLD PROOF
Commemoratives 21CB 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM GOLD UNC
Commemoratives 21CC 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM SILVER PROOF
Commemoratives 21CD 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM SILVER UNC
Commemoratives 21CE 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM CLAD PROOF
Commemoratives 21CF 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM CLAD UNC
Commemoratives 21CG 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM 3-COIN SET
Commemoratives 21CH 2021 CHRISTA MCAULIFFE SILVER PROOF
Commemoratives 21CJ 2021 CHRISTA MCAULIFFE SILVER UNC
Precious Metal Products 21XC MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR CC PRIVY MARK
Precious Metal Products 21XD MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR O PRIVY MARK
Precious Metal Products 21XE MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR NO PRIVY MARK NO MINT MARK
Precious Metal Products 21XF MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR NO PRIVY MARK (S)
Precious Metal Products 21XG MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR NO PRIVY MARK (D)
Precious Metal Products 21XH PEACE SILVER DOLLAR WITH NO PRIVY MARK (P)
By FEDERAL LAW there can only be two Commemorative coin programs per year (MAXIMUM) from the United States Mint.
The two commemorative coin programs for 2021 are:
National Law Enforcement
Christa McAuliffe
The two commemorative coins programs for 2022 are:
National Purple Heart Hall of Honor
Negro Leagues Baseball
There WILL be Morgan Silver Dollars produced by the United States Mint in CY2022, however, they will NOT be commemorative coins as defined by the United States Mint as dictated by Federal Law...
In CY2022 we will get, by Federal Law, the ‘‘Circulating Collectible Coin Redesign Act of 2020’’.
In the legislation the EXACT wording "REDESIGN AND ISSUANCE OF QUARTER DOLLARS EMBLEMATIC OF PROMINENT AMERICAN WOMEN AND COMMEMORATING THE 19TH AMENDMENT.—"
These coins will NOT be listed as commemorative coins by the United States Mint...
31 U.S. Code § 5112 - Denominations, specifications, and design of coins
(m) Commemorative Coin Program Restrictions.—
(1) Maximum number.—
Beginning January 1, 1999, the Secretary may mint and issue commemorative coins under this section during any calendar year with respect to not more than 2 commemorative coin programs.
These are all factual declarative, statements, but have very little to do with the question posed by the OP and the basis of this thread.
The only thing that really matters is what collectors think about these coins and how they will fit into their collections.
But thanks for ending what should be some other thread's story.
31 U.S. Code § 5112 - Denominations, specifications, and design of coins
(m) Commemorative Coin Program Restrictions.—
(1) Maximum number.—
Beginning January 1, 1999, the Secretary may mint and issue commemorative coins under this section during any calendar year with respect to not more than 2 commemorative coin programs.
FEDERAL LAW...
END OF STORY...
Do you really think quoting Federal Law will change one obstinate mind?
I just sold my last set. So, I can now say, without fear of being charged with a conflict of interest (LOL - yeah, right! More on...to follow): these coins COULD be considered part of the original series.
Or not. Some people exclude proofs from series, for example. Some people exclude satin finish coins from series. Most people exclude the gold Merc dime from the series although they seem to include the gold Kennedy in the series.
I really don't think it's definitive either way, no matter what our "very special" friends think.
One thing you have proven DEFINITIVELY is that these are not "commemorative coins". Kudos for the research!
@rip_f said:
These are all factual declarative, statements, but have very little to do with the question posed by the OP and the basis of this thread.
The only thing that really matters is what collectors think about these coins and how they will fit into their collections.
But thanks for ending what should be some other thread's story.
In the end, the decision is always rather personal. Some people ignore mint marks or alternate finishes or varieties. Others include mint marks but ignore varieties, etc. How many Morgan $ collectors include the proofs?
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
@Weiss said:
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
You left out a word in the Mint's description of them. They are Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollars. Yes, collect what you want BUT you don't get to assign the official designation of the coins or arbitrarily proclaim they are part of the Morgan Dollar series. YOU can assign whatever attributes you'd like to them You can also proclaim the Earth is flat and water boils at 33 degrees but the legislation defines, and the history, composition, finish supports, these Morgans are commeratives, period end of story.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@Weiss said:
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
You left out a word in the Mint's description of them. They are Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollars. Yes, collect what you want BUT you don't get to assign the official designation of the coins or arbitrarily proclaim they are part of the Morgan Dollar series. YOU can assign whatever attributes you'd like to them You can also proclaim the Earth is flat and water boils at 33 degrees but the legislation defines, and the history, composition, finish supports, these Morgans are commeratives, period end of story.
Newsflash - you don’t get to end a debate or argument by writing “...period end of story”.
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Legislation authorizing the Washington quarter defines them as commemorative:
Congressional Research Service
Washington Quarter
In March 1931, President Herbert Hoover signed a law (46 Stat. 1523) to change the design of the quarter dollar coin to commemorate “the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington.”
46 Stat. 1523 (Pub. Law 71-852)
AN ACT To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington. March 4, 1931 1523
SEVENTY-FIRST CONGRESS. SESS. III . CHs. 504-506 . 1931
CHAP. 505 .-An Act To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington .
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States o f America in Congress assembled, That notwithstanding the provisions and limitations of section 3510 of the Revised Statutes, as amended, the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized and directed, for the purpose of commemorating the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington, to change the design of the twenty-five-cent piece so that the portrait of George Washington shall appear on the obverse, with appropriate devices on the reverse, of said piece . The new coins shall be issued for general circulation beginning in 1932, the year of the said bicentennial anniversary .
Approved, March 4, 1931 .
@MasonG said:
Legislation authorizing the Washington quarter defines them as commemorative:
Congressional Research Service
Washington Quarter
In March 1931, President Herbert Hoover signed a law (46 Stat. 1523) to change the design of the quarter dollar coin to commemorate “the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington.”
46 Stat. 1523 (Pub. Law 71-852)
AN ACT To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington. March 4, 1931 1523
SEVENTY-FIRST CONGRESS. SESS. III . CHs. 504-506 . 1931
CHAP. 505 .-An Act To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington .
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States o f America in Congress assembled, That notwithstanding the provisions and limitations of section 3510 of the Revised Statutes, as amended, the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized and directed, for the purpose of commemorating the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington, to change the design of the twenty-five-cent piece so that the portrait of George Washington shall appear on the obverse, with appropriate devices on the reverse, of said piece . The new coins shall be issued for general circulation beginning in 1932, the year of the said bicentennial anniversary .
Approved, March 4, 1931 .
@MasonG said:
Legislation authorizing the Washington quarter defines them as commemorative:
Congressional Research Service
Washington Quarter
In March 1931, President Herbert Hoover signed a law (46 Stat. 1523) to change the design of the quarter dollar coin to commemorate “the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington.”
46 Stat. 1523 (Pub. Law 71-852)
AN ACT To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington. March 4, 1931 1523
SEVENTY-FIRST CONGRESS. SESS. III . CHs. 504-506 . 1931
CHAP. 505 .-An Act To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington .
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States o f America in Congress assembled, That notwithstanding the provisions and limitations of section 3510 of the Revised Statutes, as amended, the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized and directed, for the purpose of commemorating the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington, to change the design of the twenty-five-cent piece so that the portrait of George Washington shall appear on the obverse, with appropriate devices on the reverse, of said piece . The new coins shall be issued for general circulation beginning in 1932, the year of the said bicentennial anniversary .
Approved, March 4, 1931 .
Is a coin necessarily a “commemorative” by virtue of “commemorating” something? And is a coin a “commemorative”, when it’s “issued for general circulation”?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Weiss said:
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
You left out a word in the Mint's description of them. They are Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollars. Yes, collect what you want BUT you don't get to assign the official designation of the coins or arbitrarily proclaim they are part of the Morgan Dollar series. YOU can assign whatever attributes you'd like to them You can also proclaim the Earth is flat and water boils at 33 degrees but the legislation defines, and the history, composition, finish supports, these Morgans are commeratives, period end of story.
Newsflash - you don’t get to end a debate or argument by writing “...period end of story”.
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
Period, end of story is a way to convey the person added nothing to the debate.
I did NOT state an opinion, I stated facts. Here are those facts.
The legislation authorizing the minting of these coins refers to them as commeratives.
The statement from mint official quoted by MetroD "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins" also refers to them as commeratives.
The member of Congress that voted for the authorization also referred to them in his presentation of the coin to the Carson City Museum as commeratives.
The coins were struck 100 years after the Morgan series was end and replace by another circulation dollar coin.
The new coins struck have a different composition, weight and finish.
Feel free to draw irrational conclusions not based in fact all you want and argue those conclusions for another 100 post BUT the facts speak for themself.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@MFeld said:
Is a coin necessarily a “commemorative” by virtue of “commemorating” something?
People seem to be making that argument.
@MFeld said:
And is a coin a “commemorative”, when it’s “issued for general circulation”?
You'd have to ask the people who authored and passed the legislation what their intention was. Might be a little difficult though, I'd seriously doubt any of them are still alive.
@MFeld said:
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
@MasonG said:
Legislation authorizing the Washington quarter defines them as commemorative:
Congressional Research Service
Washington Quarter
In March 1931, President Herbert Hoover signed a law (46 Stat. 1523) to change the design of the quarter dollar coin to commemorate “the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington.”
46 Stat. 1523 (Pub. Law 71-852)
AN ACT To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington. March 4, 1931 1523
SEVENTY-FIRST CONGRESS. SESS. III . CHs. 504-506 . 1931
CHAP. 505 .-An Act To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington .
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States o f America in Congress assembled, That notwithstanding the provisions and limitations of section 3510 of the Revised Statutes, as amended, the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized and directed, for the purpose of commemorating the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington, to change the design of the twenty-five-cent piece so that the portrait of George Washington shall appear on the obverse, with appropriate devices on the reverse, of said piece . The new coins shall be issued for general circulation beginning in 1932, the year of the said bicentennial anniversary .
Approved, March 4, 1931 .
Is a coin necessarily a “commemorative” by virtue of “commemorating” something? And is a coin a “commemorative”, when it’s “issued for general circulation”?
What is the record for nits picked on one thread?
Is Heritage still selling these? If so, I think we're supposed to ignore you.
@MFeld said:
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
@Weiss said:
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
You left out a word in the Mint's description of them. They are Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollars. Yes, collect what you want BUT you don't get to assign the official designation of the coins or arbitrarily proclaim they are part of the Morgan Dollar series. YOU can assign whatever attributes you'd like to them You can also proclaim the Earth is flat and water boils at 33 degrees but the legislation defines, and the history, composition, finish supports, these Morgans are commeratives, period end of story.
Newsflash - you don’t get to end a debate or argument by writing “...period end of story”.
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
Period, end of story is a way to convey the person added nothing to the debate.
I did NOT state an opinion, I stated facts. Here are those facts.
The legislation authorizing the minting of these coins refers to them as commeratives.
The statement from mint official quoted by MetroD "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins" also refers to them as commeratives.
The member of Congress that voted for the authorization also referred to them in his presentation of the coin to the Carson City Museum as commeratives.
The coins were struck 100 years after the Morgan series was end and replace by another circulation dollar coin.
The new coins struck have a different composition, weight and finish.
Feel free to draw irrational conclusions not based in fact all you want and argue those conclusions for another 100 post BUT the facts speak for themself.
“End of story” doesn’t simply mean that “the person added nothing to the debate.” That, alone, wouldn’t necessarily indicate that the debate had been decided or ended.
“ end of story
Meaning
there is nothing more to add to the matter under discussion
the discussion is complete, nothing more to be said
said to emphasize that what is said is true there is no other possibility to change it
there is no more to be said
Source: www.theidioms.com”
Sorry for not having been clear in my comment about opinions vs, facts. It pertained to a number of your posts, not just the previous one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Weiss said:
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
You left out a word in the Mint's description of them. They are Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollars. Yes, collect what you want BUT you don't get to assign the official designation of the coins or arbitrarily proclaim they are part of the Morgan Dollar series. YOU can assign whatever attributes you'd like to them You can also proclaim the Earth is flat and water boils at 33 degrees but the legislation defines, and the history, composition, finish supports, these Morgans are commeratives, period end of story.
Newsflash - you don’t get to end a debate or argument by writing “...period end of story”.
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
Period, end of story is a way to convey the person added nothing to the debate.
I did NOT state an opinion, I stated facts. Here are those facts.
The legislation authorizing the minting of these coins refers to them as commeratives.
The statement from mint official quoted by MetroD "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins" also refers to them as commeratives.
The member of Congress that voted for the authorization also referred to them in his presentation of the coin to the Carson City Museum as commeratives.
The coins were struck 100 years after the Morgan series was end and replace by another circulation dollar coin.
The new coins struck have a different composition, weight and finish.
Feel free to draw irrational conclusions not based in fact all you want and argue those conclusions for another 100 post BUT the facts speak for themself.
“End of story” doesn’t simply mean that “the person added nothing to the debate.” That, alone, wouldn’t necessarily indicate that the debate had been decided or ended.
“ end of story
Meaning
there is nothing more to add to the matter under discussion
the discussion is complete, nothing more to be said
said to emphasize that what is said is true there is no other possibility to change it
there is no more to be said
Source: www.theidioms.com”
Sorry for not having been clear in my comment about opinions vs, facts. It pertained to a number of your posts, not just the previous one.
I know this was my thread originally, but I can't take it seriously anymore.
@Weiss said:
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
You left out a word in the Mint's description of them. They are Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollars. Yes, collect what you want BUT you don't get to assign the official designation of the coins or arbitrarily proclaim they are part of the Morgan Dollar series. YOU can assign whatever attributes you'd like to them You can also proclaim the Earth is flat and water boils at 33 degrees but the legislation defines, and the history, composition, finish supports, these Morgans are commeratives, period end of story.
Newsflash - you don’t get to end a debate or argument by writing “...period end of story”.
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
Period, end of story is a way to convey the person added nothing to the debate.
I did NOT state an opinion, I stated facts. Here are those facts.
The legislation authorizing the minting of these coins refers to them as commeratives.
The statement from mint official quoted by MetroD "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins" also refers to them as commeratives.
The member of Congress that voted for the authorization also referred to them in his presentation of the coin to the Carson City Museum as commeratives.
The coins were struck 100 years after the Morgan series was end and replace by another circulation dollar coin.
The new coins struck have a different composition, weight and finish.
Feel free to draw irrational conclusions not based in fact all you want and argue those conclusions for another 100 post BUT the facts speak for themself.
“End of story” doesn’t simply mean that “the person added nothing to the debate.” That, alone, wouldn’t necessarily indicate that the debate had been decided or ended.
“ end of story
Meaning
there is nothing more to add to the matter under discussion
the discussion is complete, nothing more to be said
said to emphasize that what is said is true there is no other possibility to change it
there is no more to be said
Source: www.theidioms.com”
Sorry for not having been clear in my comment about opinions vs, facts. It pertained to a number of your posts, not just the previous one.
I know this was my thread originally, but I can't take it seriously anymore.
No doubt, with good reason, but what took you so long?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Weiss said:
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
You left out a word in the Mint's description of them. They are Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollars. Yes, collect what you want BUT you don't get to assign the official designation of the coins or arbitrarily proclaim they are part of the Morgan Dollar series. YOU can assign whatever attributes you'd like to them You can also proclaim the Earth is flat and water boils at 33 degrees but the legislation defines, and the history, composition, finish supports, these Morgans are commeratives, period end of story.
Newsflash - you don’t get to end a debate or argument by writing “...period end of story”.
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
Period, end of story is a way to convey the person added nothing to the debate.
I did NOT state an opinion, I stated facts. Here are those facts.
The legislation authorizing the minting of these coins refers to them as commeratives.
The statement from mint official quoted by MetroD "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins" also refers to them as commeratives.
The member of Congress that voted for the authorization also referred to them in his presentation of the coin to the Carson City Museum as commeratives.
The coins were struck 100 years after the Morgan series was end and replace by another circulation dollar coin.
The new coins struck have a different composition, weight and finish.
Feel free to draw irrational conclusions not based in fact all you want and argue those conclusions for another 100 post BUT the facts speak for themself.
“End of story” doesn’t simply mean that “the person added nothing to the debate.” That, alone, wouldn’t necessarily indicate that the debate had been decided or ended.
“ end of story
Meaning
there is nothing more to add to the matter under discussion
the discussion is complete, nothing more to be said
said to emphasize that what is said is true there is no other possibility to change it
there is no more to be said
Source: www.theidioms.com”
Sorry for not having been clear in my comment about opinions vs, facts. It pertained to a number of your posts, not just the previous one.
The facts stated in my last post are the underlying foundation of the other post. Can you refuse any of those facts? If not, end of story.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@Weiss said:
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
You left out a word in the Mint's description of them. They are Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollars. Yes, collect what you want BUT you don't get to assign the official designation of the coins or arbitrarily proclaim they are part of the Morgan Dollar series. YOU can assign whatever attributes you'd like to them You can also proclaim the Earth is flat and water boils at 33 degrees but the legislation defines, and the history, composition, finish supports, these Morgans are commeratives, period end of story.
Newsflash - you don’t get to end a debate or argument by writing “...period end of story”.
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
Period, end of story is a way to convey the person added nothing to the debate.
I did NOT state an opinion, I stated facts. Here are those facts.
The legislation authorizing the minting of these coins refers to them as commeratives.
The statement from mint official quoted by MetroD "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins" also refers to them as commeratives.
The member of Congress that voted for the authorization also referred to them in his presentation of the coin to the Carson City Museum as commeratives.
The coins were struck 100 years after the Morgan series was end and replace by another circulation dollar coin.
The new coins struck have a different composition, weight and finish.
Feel free to draw irrational conclusions not based in fact all you want and argue those conclusions for another 100 post BUT the facts speak for themself.
“End of story” doesn’t simply mean that “the person added nothing to the debate.” That, alone, wouldn’t necessarily indicate that the debate had been decided or ended.
“ end of story
Meaning
there is nothing more to add to the matter under discussion
the discussion is complete, nothing more to be said
said to emphasize that what is said is true there is no other possibility to change it
there is no more to be said
Source: www.theidioms.com”
Sorry for not having been clear in my comment about opinions vs, facts. It pertained to a number of your posts, not just the previous one.
The facts stated in my last post are the underlying foundation of the other post. Can you refuse any of those facts? If not, end of story.
As I mentioned before, the story doesn’t end just because you say so. I happen to think the 2021 Morgan’s are or should be classified as commemoratives, but that’s largely beside the point.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
You're entitled to your opinion but the facts say otherwise.
You didn't know that you couldn't win? Lol. Did you forget that he came to our consciousness in the infamous grading standards thread? Has anyone yet forgotten the "original surfaces" debate that waged for several hundred posts?
I sell Mint products. I also routinely tell people not to buy 95% of them for 2 years after release. I have never once hyped a coin much less a Mint release. Let him have his little "victory". He's exposed himself and none of us are the worse for wear.
How'd that one turn out? I bailed before the end, is everybody still wrong?
I really haven't taken a definite position on them. I'm also not sure it matters whether they are part of the series or not. But I don't find the exclusion arguments definitive.
Composition? Lincoln cents have had 3 different compositions. Washington Quarters have had 3 different.
Commemorative? All proofs are commemorative. 1932 Washington quarters are commemorative. Bicentennial quarters and every quarter since 1999 have been commemorative.
Gap in production? Original Morgans had a 17 year gap. SBAs had an 18 year gap.
Lol. Depends on who you ask.
Still hyping? Figures.
Lol. Sorry, I was trying to make a reasoned argument. I can't help myself.
On the bright side, I may be out of inventory tomorrow and then I can come back here and say the same thing and they'll just have to believe me. Right?
Then you don't know the definition of hype> @jmlanzaf said:
Yes, you sell Mint products. You don't buy and sell them to lose money. You buy and sell them to make a profit. You promote (hype) the products you sell. Your response to just about every post that gave reasons why these Morgans were not part of the series was to counter that claim. If you're trying to make the case that whether or not these coins were considered part of the series would not impact the demand/price you get an F in economics 101.
Those people you tell not to buy a product, is that before or after you've exhausted your inventory?
Now back to the FACTS. According to the legislation authorizing them these coins are commemoratives. The were minted 100 years after the series was ended and not as a continuation of the series. The specifications of the coins are difference (composition, weight and finish). Your attempt to counter each point by point to an example of where exceptions occurred with business strike coins (going from silver to clad, state quarter designs, disruption of production in isolated instances, etc.) don't counter the combination of reasons these Morgans are not part of the Morgan series.
For some reason you continue promoting (hyping) that idea. Numismatic orthodoxy? Profit? Save face after selling off your inventory?
Respectfully, I do not think this statement is completely accurate.
The "1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act" (Public Law 116-286) uses a variation of the word "commemorative" twice (i.e., section 2.1 and section 2.6). In both cases, the word is used as a verb that means to remember and honor.
As previously communicated here by @cagcrisp, the term "commemorative coin" has a specific meaning at the Mint (i.e., 'celebrates/honors' AND raises funds for a specific cause). The point - a coin can commemorate something without officially being a "commemorative coin".
Here is some more information that supports my position:
~ The "Commemorative Coin Programs" page at the Mint site lists the "commemorative coins" by year. Note that the Morgan and Peace dollars are not listed for 2021.
~ A recent report on "commemorative coins" from the 'Congressional Research Service' says:
"While the 2021 Morgan and Peace Dollars coins commemorate the 100th anniversaries of each coin, they are not technically considered commemorative coins according to traditional definitions of that term. Commemorative coins, as defined in this report, by the U.S. Mint, and by the Commemorative Coin Reform Act (CCRA), are authorized by Congress to “celebrate and honor American people, places, events, and institutions” and “help raise money for important causes.”80 The 2021 Morgan and Peace dollars are differentiated from other commemorative coins because proceeds from their sale are not statutorily designated for a specific recipient group. They are solely minted to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the coins, not to raise money."
Source (bottom of page #24)
Note - I realize that PCGS has classified these coins as "modern silver and clad commemoratives, MS". I an unable to explain why they did this.
For the record, they have also classified other recent non-commemorative coins as "commemorative". For example:
~ 2020-W $10 Mayflower 400th Anniversary Reverse Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #838048)
~ 2020-W $10 Mayflower 400th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #838054)
~ 2020-W $25 End of WWII 75th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (PCGS #837925)
Source
Again, since these releases are technically not "commemorative coins", I am unable to explain their rationale.
Very interesting.
[And factual... which you'll probably be punished for. Lol]
The key phrase in your post is "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins". Being differentiated doesn't negate the fact that they are commemorative coins. I can differentiate items on various levels and yet they are still associated on other levels. The function of the coin as stated in the legislation is to commerate. That is the descriptive word used in the legislation. How others outside the legislation describes them doesn’t alter the legislative use of the word commemorative.
The other factors also have a bearing on the issue. These Morgans were struck 100 years after the discontinuation of the original Morgans. There is nothing in the legislation that indicates these are a continuation of that series. In fact there were other coins struck that replace the Morgans as the circulation dollar coins. The coins are a different construction (metal, weight and finish). These are not regular business strike coins. All of these factors weigh against the 2021 being considered a continuation of the Morgan series.
BTW, I appreciate your research into these coins. A point of interest is the presentation made by Rep. Mark E. Amodei, R-Nev. during the presentations of a CC coin to the Nevada State Museum in Carson City.
“The historical significance of the Carson City Mint is an integral part of who we are,” Amodei said Sept. 14. “Today, we celebrated the 100th anniversary of the last Morgan Dollar minted in the U.S. It is only fitting that the Carson City Mint played such a significant role in numismatic history and in this Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollar Coin Program."
This is the interpretation of what these coins are by a representative that voted for the legislation authorizing them. His understanding of that authorization is that they are commemorative coins.
Right now, these should be considered merely a popular and money-making part of the Mint's product line.
Popular with both collectors and flippers for obvious reasons. If these continue for many years, they will become a series onto themselves, and obviously lose the commemoration/anniversary status, like the Washington quarter did.
I look forward to seeing and owning a proof Morgan next year, but why San Francisco?? Were any proof Morgans or Peace dollars ever minted in SF?
Breaking that tradition indicates to me that these are neither a continuation nor a commemoration, but a new series and a well-timed marketing gimmick. One that I approve of.
Good point. I also think a new series is the way to go. Those who believe they are a continuation of the series are going to hit a brick wall when the reverse proofs come out. Going to be interesting to hear that justification. “ 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Any more interesting or difficult than justifying a gold Kennedy half dollar?
These will become a series of their own. Expect to see them for years to come.
Agreed. I'm not sure why a finish difference makes a difference in how you view them. All currently circulating coins have been issued in multiple finishes including proofs, reverse proofs, enhanced uncirculated.
Maybe it's a riddle:
Q: When is a Morgan dollar not a Morgan dollar?
A: When it's a reverse proof Morgan dollar.
[Hype! Hype! Baloney! Hype! Hype!]
What a thread...
A point here... a point there... And a lot of bull in between. Sorry to disappoint but the reality is that there is no steak to be had here.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Because it's not JUST the finish difference being considered. Legislation, timing, material, weight, finish all have a bearing on the discussion. The legislation identifies them as commeratives. The statement posted by MetroD refers to them as commeratives. The representative that voted for the legislation authorizing them referred to them as commeratives. So it's not just a matter of the finish.
Did you get another shipment in you're trying to sell?
>
Valid point.
The paragraph that I cited was from a 'Congressional Research Service" report. As such, I e-mailed the author for clarification on the issue you raised. IF he responds, I will post the information in this thread.
I think that we are experiencing an issue with terminology. In my mind, there are at least two ways to define a "commemorative coin".
1) the colloquial way. Here, the term refers to a coin that 'celebrates/honors' a person, place, event, or institution.
Example: 2020-W $25 End of WWII 75th Anniversary Proof Gold Coin (Mint 20XG; PCGS #837925)
This coin 'celebrates/honors/commemorates' the 75th anniversary of the end of WWII.
2) the Mint way. Here, the term also refers to a coin that 'celebrates/honors' a person, place, event, or institution.
In addition, it raises funds for a related cause via a surcharge.
Example: the upcoming 2022-W $5 Purple Heart Proof Gold Coin (Mint 22CA)
This coin 'celebrates/honors/commemorates' the Purple Heart program. It also raises funds for the "National Purple Heart Hall of Honor'.
You are absolutely correct. The '1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act' does include the words "commemorating" (section 2.1) and "commemorate" (section 2.6). I believe that this makes the coin "commemorative" in the colloquial sense. However, I do not think that the use of these terms automatically makes a coin "commemorative" as defined by the Mint.
At this juncture, it might be constructive to compare the legislation for a Mint-designated "commemorative coin" to one that is not. Let's use the "National Purple Heart Hall of Honor Commemorative Coin Act" (Public Law 116-247) and the "1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act" (Public Law 116-286). The former is is Mint-designated "commemorative coin", while the later is not. A quick comparison reveals the following:
~ they both use variations of "commemorative" in the body of the legislation. So, this does not appear to be meaningful in terms of differentiation.
~ the Mint-designated "commemorative coin" includes the word "commemorative coin" in its official "short title", while the other does not.
~ the Mint-designated "commemorative coin" includes an entire section that details the surcharge (section #7), while the other does not.
Please refer to my earlier point about the different definitions for "commemorative coins" (i.e., colloquial vs. Mint).
Yes, a politician used the word "commemorative" at a presentation ceremony for a 2021 Morgan coin. IMHO, this does not make the program "commemorative" per the Mint definition. He was most likely using the colloquial definition.
The Mint definition of "commemorative coin" is most likely to be used by people linked to the Mint, and in numismatic circles. Hence my rationale for posting about it here.
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
--Severian the Lame
The United States Mint does NOT consider these coins as commemoratives...
End of Story...
Commemoratives 21CA 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM GOLD PROOF
Commemoratives 21CB 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM GOLD UNC
Commemoratives 21CC 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM SILVER PROOF
Commemoratives 21CD 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM SILVER UNC
Commemoratives 21CE 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM CLAD PROOF
Commemoratives 21CF 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM CLAD UNC
Commemoratives 21CG 2021 NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT MUSEUM 3-COIN SET
Commemoratives 21CH 2021 CHRISTA MCAULIFFE SILVER PROOF
Commemoratives 21CJ 2021 CHRISTA MCAULIFFE SILVER UNC
Precious Metal Products 21XC MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR CC PRIVY MARK
Precious Metal Products 21XD MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR O PRIVY MARK
Precious Metal Products 21XE MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR NO PRIVY MARK NO MINT MARK
Precious Metal Products 21XF MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR NO PRIVY MARK (S)
Precious Metal Products 21XG MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR NO PRIVY MARK (D)
Precious Metal Products 21XH PEACE SILVER DOLLAR WITH NO PRIVY MARK (P)
By FEDERAL LAW there can only be two Commemorative coin programs per year (MAXIMUM) from the United States Mint.
The two commemorative coin programs for 2021 are:
The two commemorative coins programs for 2022 are:
There WILL be Morgan Silver Dollars produced by the United States Mint in CY2022, however, they will NOT be commemorative coins as defined by the United States Mint as dictated by Federal Law...
In CY2022 we will get, by Federal Law, the ‘‘Circulating Collectible Coin Redesign Act of 2020’’.
In the legislation the EXACT wording "REDESIGN AND ISSUANCE OF QUARTER DOLLARS EMBLEMATIC OF PROMINENT AMERICAN WOMEN AND COMMEMORATING THE 19TH AMENDMENT.—"
These coins will NOT be listed as commemorative coins by the United States Mint...
FEDERAL LAW....
31 U.S. Code § 5112 - Denominations, specifications, and design of coins
(m) Commemorative Coin Program Restrictions.—
(1) Maximum number.—
Beginning January 1, 1999, the Secretary may mint and issue commemorative coins under this section during any calendar year with respect to not more than 2 commemorative coin programs.
FEDERAL LAW...
END OF STORY...
These are all factual declarative, statements, but have very little to do with the question posed by the OP and the basis of this thread.
The only thing that really matters is what collectors think about these coins and how they will fit into their collections.
But thanks for ending what should be some other thread's story.
Do you really think quoting Federal Law will change one obstinate mind?
I just sold my last set. So, I can now say, without fear of being charged with a conflict of interest (LOL - yeah, right! More on...to follow): these coins COULD be considered part of the original series.
Or not. Some people exclude proofs from series, for example. Some people exclude satin finish coins from series. Most people exclude the gold Merc dime from the series although they seem to include the gold Kennedy in the series.
I really don't think it's definitive either way, no matter what our "very special" friends think.
One thing you have proven DEFINITIVELY is that these are not "commemorative coins". Kudos for the research!
In the end, the decision is always rather personal. Some people ignore mint marks or alternate finishes or varieties. Others include mint marks but ignore varieties, etc. How many Morgan $ collectors include the proofs?
No more than the 2016 SLQ should be part of that set
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Let me guess... baloney!
Any die varieties found involving these will not be added to the VAM catalog. They will be left for CONECA to catalog with other modern commems.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Are these Morgan silver dollars Morgan silver dollars?
Yes. These Morgan silver dollars are Morgan silver dollars.
Collect what you like. Include them or don't include them. But they are absolutely, positively, US Mint-produced, dollar-denominated, George T. Morgan-designed United States of American silver dollars.
Image courtesy of @philographer
--Severian the Lame
You left out a word in the Mint's description of them. They are Commemorative Morgan Silver Dollars. Yes, collect what you want BUT you don't get to assign the official designation of the coins or arbitrarily proclaim they are part of the Morgan Dollar series. YOU can assign whatever attributes you'd like to them You can also proclaim the Earth is flat and water boils at 33 degrees but the legislation defines, and the history, composition, finish supports, these Morgans are commeratives, period end of story.
Newsflash - you don’t get to end a debate or argument by writing “...period end of story”.
And the same goes for claiming that your opinions are facts, while stating those who disagree are expressing opinions, rather than facts.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Legislation authorizing the Washington quarter defines them as commemorative:
Congressional Research Service
Washington Quarter
In March 1931, President Herbert Hoover signed a law (46 Stat. 1523) to change the design of the quarter dollar coin to commemorate “the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington.”
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11394/3
46 Stat. 1523 (Pub. Law 71-852)
AN ACT To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington. March 4, 1931 1523
https://uslaw.link/#q=46 Stat. 1523
SEVENTY-FIRST CONGRESS. SESS. III . CHs. 504-506 . 1931
CHAP. 505 .-An Act To authorize a change in the design of the quarter dollar to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington .
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States o f America in Congress assembled, That notwithstanding the provisions and limitations of section 3510 of the Revised Statutes, as amended, the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized and directed, for the purpose of commemorating the two hundredth anniversary of the birth of George Washington, to change the design of the twenty-five-cent piece so that the portrait of George Washington shall appear on the obverse, with appropriate devices on the reverse, of said piece . The new coins shall be issued for general circulation beginning in 1932, the year of the said bicentennial anniversary .
Approved, March 4, 1931 .
https://govtrackus.s3.amazonaws.com/legislink/pdf/stat/46/STATUTE-46-Pg1523.pdf
More facts and federal laws. What is the matter with you people? There is only one opinion that matters. End of story.
Is a coin necessarily a “commemorative” by virtue of “commemorating” something? And is a coin a “commemorative”, when it’s “issued for general circulation”?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Period, end of story is a way to convey the person added nothing to the debate.
I did NOT state an opinion, I stated facts. Here are those facts.
The legislation authorizing the minting of these coins refers to them as commeratives.
The statement from mint official quoted by MetroD "differentiated from OTHER commemorative coins" also refers to them as commeratives.
The member of Congress that voted for the authorization also referred to them in his presentation of the coin to the Carson City Museum as commeratives.
The coins were struck 100 years after the Morgan series was end and replace by another circulation dollar coin.
The new coins struck have a different composition, weight and finish.
Feel free to draw irrational conclusions not based in fact all you want and argue those conclusions for another 100 post BUT the facts speak for themself.
People seem to be making that argument.
You'd have to ask the people who authored and passed the legislation what their intention was. Might be a little difficult though, I'd seriously doubt any of them are still alive.
Baloney!
What is the record for nits picked on one thread?
Is Heritage still selling these? If so, I think we're supposed to ignore you.
Gezundheit.
Just wait until they start showing up toned.
“End of story” doesn’t simply mean that “the person added nothing to the debate.” That, alone, wouldn’t necessarily indicate that the debate had been decided or ended.
“ end of story
Meaning
there is nothing more to add to the matter under discussion
the discussion is complete, nothing more to be said
said to emphasize that what is said is true there is no other possibility to change it
there is no more to be said
Source: www.theidioms.com”
Sorry for not having been clear in my comment about opinions vs, facts. It pertained to a number of your posts, not just the previous one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Don't start hyping your tarnished junk. It gives ricko hives.
I know this was my thread originally, but I can't take it seriously anymore.
No doubt, with good reason, but what took you so long?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Can I hype the luster then?
The facts stated in my last post are the underlying foundation of the other post. Can you refuse any of those facts? If not, end of story.
As I mentioned before, the story doesn’t end just because you say so. I happen to think the 2021 Morgan’s are or should be classified as commemoratives, but that’s largely beside the point.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.