@JoeBanzai said:
I would agree with you and take it a step further and say Seaver was quite a bit better than Carlton.
Tom should have won the Cy Young in both 70 and 71. Seaver was a little better than Carlton in 77 and Rogers got robbed in 82 when Carlton won his final Cy Young.
I think Tom Seaver just might be the GOAT of the modern era.
Absolutely true; Seaver was in a class by himself despite pitching at the same time as a boatload of HOFers. He does not get his due from most fans, and the "missing" Cy Young Awards are no doubt a big part of it.
And Rogers didn't just get robbed, he got mugged, beaten, tossed off a cliff and left for dead. Same thing happened to Dave Stieb in the AL that year. Ignoring the times relief pitchers won, 1982 was to the CYA what 1987 was to the MVP - absolutely disgraceful.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@jayhawke said:
I know I'll get slack for saying this but Ryan is not in the same league as Carlton or Seaver. Those two were pitchers. Ryan struck people out and pitched 27 seasons. I know, he had so many no hitters. Go look at the list of pitchers with multiple no-hitters, Ryan not in many of their leagues. The hobby has embraced him for years. Collect what you like.
I would agree with you and take it a step further and say Seaver was quite a bit better than Carlton.
Tom should have won the Cy Young in both 70 and 71. Seaver was a little better than Carlton in 77 and Rogers got robbed in 82 when Carlton won his final Cy Young.
I think Tom Seaver just might be the GOAT of the modern era.
Well, I suppose that depends on two things: how you define modern era and what you do with Clemens.
I have a hard time seeing Ryan any better than tenth among his contemporaries. Ryan was sexy, but not terribly effective. I've spoken before how he's probably not a HoFer if he retires at 40. I can count on one finger the number of pitchers who were ineffective from ages 35 to 39 only to run off the best part of their careers after turning 40.
@olb31 said:
ryan is like marino. played on average teams, but performed like superstars. when you watched both you knew you were watching the best at their trade.i watched them both many times and usually came away very impressed.
I think Marino gets the "superstar" credit he's due. In "Approximate Value" he's 11th, and of his rough contemporaries he's behind only Rice, Reggie White, and Bruce Smith. There is nothing other than "Great" about that. FWIW, Montana is 34th and Bradshaw tied for 92nd just behind Testaverde.
Phil Niekro is who you think Ryan was, except that the Braves in the 1970s were far below average and he was much more quietly excellent.
I love the 71 OPC as I have the Garvey PSA 7. Would love to see a high grade Blyleven or Baker/Paciorek/Baylor as I never seem to see those ones. It’s too bad there wasn’t a 67 OPC Seaver as that might rival the Ryan as the top OPC rookie because of the scarcity of 67 OPC.
seaver is certainly in another class from both ryan and carlton. He is probably 2nd or 3rd among post integration pitchers.
Clemens would rank 1st and by a bit of a margin. then I rank seaver with maddux and R. Johnson for the 2-4 slots with all three being very very close.
hard to rank the greatest pitcher of all time, but it would have to be either clemens, grove or walter johnson. very difficult to rank pre integration/dead ball pitchers with modern era. If I HAD to choose a ranking, it would probably be:
1. Clemens: pitched post integration in mostly high offense league in mostly hitters parks.
2. Grove: pitched in very high offensive era, but pre integration
3. W. Johnson: best numbers of the three, but pitched pre integration and mostly during dead ball era.
while i am a "fan" of Ryan, he had neither the consistency or the control to rank higher than 15th or so all time.
But, he was capable of pitching a masterpiece at any given moment. and there is something special to seeing a man consistently throw a baseball at 100+ MPH. his longevity has added to his legacy as well.
I have no doubt and agree Clemens is one of the best ever. Maddux and R Johnson too. The greatest of pitchers absolutely...A few differences with Seaver though. Clemens and the rest pitched for good teams with solid team support throughout their careers... which made them better pitchers IMO.
As I recall in Seaver's prime with the Mets, he pitched for a team who consistently gave him 0-2 runs/game of support in any given start. Many games he pitched 10 or more innings, scored the only runs of the game himself and literally dragged the Mets team to victory (and beyond) himself.... for 10 years!! Seaver made the Mets better baseball players...that's the difference. I cannot say that about any of the above pitchers.
As Carlton Fisk said in a a tough game late in Seaver's career, when he had nothing left in the tank when Tom was ready to throw in the towel, "your Tom f****ing Seaver!" Carlton and Bench new!!
Won this lot the other day. Seemed like i got a good deal. Probably nothing super high grade but there are some nice looking cards in there. Excited to get these and check them out!
Not sure if this stat held up for his entire career, but at the time Seaver was traded to the Reds, he had the highest win percentage differential above his own team's winning percentage in baseball history.
@jayhawke said:
I know I'll get slack for saying this but Ryan is not in the same league as Carlton or Seaver. Those two were pitchers. Ryan struck people out and pitched 27 seasons. I know, he had so many no hitters. Go look at the list of pitchers with multiple no-hitters, Ryan not in many of their leagues. The hobby has embraced him for years. Collect what you like.
I would agree with you and take it a step further and say Seaver was quite a bit better than Carlton.
Tom should have won the Cy Young in both 70 and 71. Seaver was a little better than Carlton in 77 and Rogers got robbed in 82 when Carlton won his final Cy Young.
I think Tom Seaver just might be the GOAT of the modern era.
Well, I suppose that depends on two things: how you define modern era and what you do with Clemens.
I have a hard time seeing Ryan any better than tenth among his contemporaries. Ryan was sexy, but not terribly effective. I've spoken before how he's probably not a HoFer if he retires at 40. I can count on one finger the number of pitchers who were ineffective from ages 35 to 39 only to run off the best part of their careers after turning 40.
Clemens would be right there with Seaver.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
while i am a "fan" of Ryan, he had neither the consistency or the control to rank higher than 15th or so all time.
But, he was capable of pitching a masterpiece at any given moment. and there is something special to seeing a man consistently throw a baseball at 100+ MPH. his longevity has added to his legacy as well.
Ex Major League Umpire Ron Luciano said that when Ryan had his curveball "working" batters had no chance against him and they knew it.
Of course Ryan didn't always have command of his curve.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
A 79 OPC Ozzie PSA 9 sold for a little over $2000 while a Topps sold for a little over $2200 in the same auction(4 Sharp Corners). OPC closing the gap on 79 Topps Ozzie or just a blip? 1979 OPC Ozzie getting the love as it should.
@jayhawke said:
I know I'll get slack for saying this but Ryan is not in the same league as Carlton or Seaver. Those two were pitchers. Ryan struck people out and pitched 27 seasons. I know, he had so many no hitters. Go look at the list of pitchers with multiple no-hitters, Ryan not in many of their leagues. The hobby has embraced him for years. Collect what you like.
I would agree with you and take it a step further and say Seaver was quite a bit better than Carlton.
Tom should have won the Cy Young in both 70 and 71. Seaver was a little better than Carlton in 77 and Rogers got robbed in 82 when Carlton won his final Cy Young.
I think Tom Seaver just might be the GOAT of the modern era.
I believe Seaver was 12-3 lifetime against Carlton.
@craig44 said:
seaver is certainly in another class from both ryan and carlton. He is probably 2nd or 3rd among post integration pitchers. Clemens would rank 1st and by a bit of a margin. then I rank seaver with maddux and R. Johnson for the 2-4 slots with all three being very very close.
hard to rank the greatest pitcher of all time, but it would have to be either clemens, grove or walter johnson. very difficult to rank pre integration/dead ball pitchers with modern era. If I HAD to choose a ranking, it would probably be:
1. Clemens: pitched post integration in mostly high offense league in mostly hitters parks.
2. Grove: pitched in very high offensive era, but pre integration
3. W. Johnson: best numbers of the three, but pitched pre integration and mostly during dead ball era.
I watched Seaver like many others here. I can only imagine Seaver on Peds. Clemens achievements starting with Blue Jays has to be taken with a grain of salt.
@craig44 said:
seaver is certainly in another class from both ryan and carlton. He is probably 2nd or 3rd among post integration pitchers. Clemens would rank 1st and by a bit of a margin. then I rank seaver with maddux and R. Johnson for the 2-4 slots with all three being very very close.
hard to rank the greatest pitcher of all time, but it would have to be either clemens, grove or walter johnson. very difficult to rank pre integration/dead ball pitchers with modern era. If I HAD to choose a ranking, it would probably be:
1. Clemens: pitched post integration in mostly high offense league in mostly hitters parks.
2. Grove: pitched in very high offensive era, but pre integration
3. W. Johnson: best numbers of the three, but pitched pre integration and mostly during dead ball era.
I watched Seaver like many others here. I can only imagine Seaver on Peds. Clemens achievements starting with Blue Jays has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Not so. no evidence Clemens ever used. this has been discussed here a whole bunch. Mitchell found an ex employee of Clemens who had an axe to grind. there was no evidence.
Thanks @craig44 and @stevegarveyfan
I never gave it too much thought.
At the time of purchase, I think Topps was about $300 for a 9.
I bought the OPC to save a couple bucks, I always felt a little disappointed not owning the "more important" Topps brand.
Today, Im happier owning the rarer OPC and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
Here's back scan:
@craig44 said:
seaver is certainly in another class from both ryan and carlton. He is probably 2nd or 3rd among post integration pitchers. Clemens would rank 1st and by a bit of a margin. then I rank seaver with maddux and R. Johnson for the 2-4 slots with all three being very very close.
hard to rank the greatest pitcher of all time, but it would have to be either clemens, grove or walter johnson. very difficult to rank pre integration/dead ball pitchers with modern era. If I HAD to choose a ranking, it would probably be:
1. Clemens: pitched post integration in mostly high offense league in mostly hitters parks.
2. Grove: pitched in very high offensive era, but pre integration
3. W. Johnson: best numbers of the three, but pitched pre integration and mostly during dead ball era.
I watched Seaver like many others here. I can only imagine Seaver on Peds. Clemens achievements starting with Blue Jays has to be taken with a grain of salt.
don't agree on clemens not using? prove me wrong...
@craig44 said:
seaver is certainly in another class from both ryan and carlton. He is probably 2nd or 3rd among post integration pitchers. Clemens would rank 1st and by a bit of a margin. then I rank seaver with maddux and R. Johnson for the 2-4 slots with all three being very very close.
hard to rank the greatest pitcher of all time, but it would have to be either clemens, grove or walter johnson. very difficult to rank pre integration/dead ball pitchers with modern era. If I HAD to choose a ranking, it would probably be:
1. Clemens: pitched post integration in mostly high offense league in mostly hitters parks.
2. Grove: pitched in very high offensive era, but pre integration
3. W. Johnson: best numbers of the three, but pitched pre integration and mostly during dead ball era.
I watched Seaver like many others here. I can only imagine Seaver on Peds. Clemens achievements starting with Blue Jays has to be taken with a grain of salt.
don't agree on clemens not using? prove me wrong...
He's working on the OJ verdict first
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@craig44 said:
seaver is certainly in another class from both ryan and carlton. He is probably 2nd or 3rd among post integration pitchers. Clemens would rank 1st and by a bit of a margin. then I rank seaver with maddux and R. Johnson for the 2-4 slots with all three being very very close.
hard to rank the greatest pitcher of all time, but it would have to be either clemens, grove or walter johnson. very difficult to rank pre integration/dead ball pitchers with modern era. If I HAD to choose a ranking, it would probably be:
1. Clemens: pitched post integration in mostly high offense league in mostly hitters parks.
2. Grove: pitched in very high offensive era, but pre integration
3. W. Johnson: best numbers of the three, but pitched pre integration and mostly during dead ball era.
I watched Seaver like many others here. I can only imagine Seaver on Peds. Clemens achievements starting with Blue Jays has to be taken with a grain of salt.
don't agree on clemens not using? prove me wrong...
You don't want to be convinced. I rather conserve my energy.
@craig44 said:
seaver is certainly in another class from both ryan and carlton. He is probably 2nd or 3rd among post integration pitchers. Clemens would rank 1st and by a bit of a margin. then I rank seaver with maddux and R. Johnson for the 2-4 slots with all three being very very close.
hard to rank the greatest pitcher of all time, but it would have to be either clemens, grove or walter johnson. very difficult to rank pre integration/dead ball pitchers with modern era. If I HAD to choose a ranking, it would probably be:
1. Clemens: pitched post integration in mostly high offense league in mostly hitters parks.
2. Grove: pitched in very high offensive era, but pre integration
3. W. Johnson: best numbers of the three, but pitched pre integration and mostly during dead ball era.
I watched Seaver like many others here. I can only imagine Seaver on Peds. Clemens achievements starting with Blue Jays has to be taken with a grain of salt.
don't agree on clemens not using? prove me wrong...
You don't want to be convinced. I rather conserve my energy.
I have researched the case for years. inside and out. there is nothing there. people like to parrot what they heard on ESPN 15+ years ago.
there is an old saying that is very appropriate for this:
A lie, when told enough, becomes the truth. that is exactly what happened in the Clemens case
@craig44 said:
seaver is certainly in another class from both ryan and carlton. He is probably 2nd or 3rd among post integration pitchers. Clemens would rank 1st and by a bit of a margin. then I rank seaver with maddux and R. Johnson for the 2-4 slots with all three being very very close.
hard to rank the greatest pitcher of all time, but it would have to be either clemens, grove or walter johnson. very difficult to rank pre integration/dead ball pitchers with modern era. If I HAD to choose a ranking, it would probably be:
1. Clemens: pitched post integration in mostly high offense league in mostly hitters parks.
2. Grove: pitched in very high offensive era, but pre integration
3. W. Johnson: best numbers of the three, but pitched pre integration and mostly during dead ball era.
I watched Seaver like many others here. I can only imagine Seaver on Peds. Clemens achievements starting with Blue Jays has to be taken with a grain of salt.
don't agree on clemens not using? prove me wrong...
You don't want to be convinced. I rather conserve my energy.
I have researched the case for years. inside and out. there is nothing there. people like to parrot what they heard on ESPN 15+ years ago.
there is an old saying that is very appropriate for this:
A lie, when told enough, becomes the truth. that is exactly what happened in the Clemens case
Plus, we got a brand new word: misremembered.
Love that word.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@coolstanley said:
Nolan will always be more valuable due to popularity. Even though Seaver was better.
I agree - part of that popularity is due to playing in front of an extra generation of fans. They started a year apart but playing an extra 7 years with the ESPN pre NBA coverage that baseball was getting in the early 90s gave Ryan a lot more exposure. The strikeout record helps solidify his place in history.
Seaver was a special pitcher - it was strange that once he got to the White Sox nobody really talked about him even in Chicago. He had stopped striking people out at that point in his career but was still a very good pitcher. I think people don’t realize how well he was still pitching at 40. There was a perception he hung around too long which was not the case.
@olb31 said:
Paul Molitor was a much better hitter then Mark McGwire. But people love(d) the Big Mac!!!
I'm constantly surprised to see McGwire (and Sosa) written about as though PEDs are the only thing keeping them from the HoF. They both hit a lot of home runs, but were so one dimensional that they weren't all that effective. Not Dave Kingman ineffective, but not in the top twenty best players not enshrined.
Comments
Absolutely true; Seaver was in a class by himself despite pitching at the same time as a boatload of HOFers. He does not get his due from most fans, and the "missing" Cy Young Awards are no doubt a big part of it.
And Rogers didn't just get robbed, he got mugged, beaten, tossed off a cliff and left for dead. Same thing happened to Dave Stieb in the AL that year. Ignoring the times relief pitchers won, 1982 was to the CYA what 1987 was to the MVP - absolutely disgraceful.
Well, I suppose that depends on two things: how you define modern era and what you do with Clemens.
I have a hard time seeing Ryan any better than tenth among his contemporaries. Ryan was sexy, but not terribly effective. I've spoken before how he's probably not a HoFer if he retires at 40. I can count on one finger the number of pitchers who were ineffective from ages 35 to 39 only to run off the best part of their careers after turning 40.
My favorite and rarest Ryan. God only knows what this would bring in today's market.
I think Marino gets the "superstar" credit he's due. In "Approximate Value" he's 11th, and of his rough contemporaries he's behind only Rice, Reggie White, and Bruce Smith. There is nothing other than "Great" about that. FWIW, Montana is 34th and Bradshaw tied for 92nd just behind Testaverde.
Phil Niekro is who you think Ryan was, except that the Braves in the 1970s were far below average and he was much more quietly excellent.
I love the 71 OPC as I have the Garvey PSA 7. Would love to see a high grade Blyleven or Baker/Paciorek/Baylor as I never seem to see those ones. It’s too bad there wasn’t a 67 OPC Seaver as that might rival the Ryan as the top OPC rookie because of the scarcity of 67 OPC.
Here is 1 of only 2 PSA 9(oc) OPC Ryan rookies. The highest straight grade is an 8
seaver is certainly in another class from both ryan and carlton. He is probably 2nd or 3rd among post integration pitchers.
Clemens would rank 1st and by a bit of a margin. then I rank seaver with maddux and R. Johnson for the 2-4 slots with all three being very very close.
hard to rank the greatest pitcher of all time, but it would have to be either clemens, grove or walter johnson. very difficult to rank pre integration/dead ball pitchers with modern era. If I HAD to choose a ranking, it would probably be:
1. Clemens: pitched post integration in mostly high offense league in mostly hitters parks.
2. Grove: pitched in very high offensive era, but pre integration
3. W. Johnson: best numbers of the three, but pitched pre integration and mostly during dead ball era.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
while i am a "fan" of Ryan, he had neither the consistency or the control to rank higher than 15th or so all time.
But, he was capable of pitching a masterpiece at any given moment. and there is something special to seeing a man consistently throw a baseball at 100+ MPH. his longevity has added to his legacy as well.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
a big regret of mine is passing up on a 74 Winfield rookie in PSA 8 for $450. winfield and morgan are the only two major opc rookies I am missing.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I have no doubt and agree Clemens is one of the best ever. Maddux and R Johnson too. The greatest of pitchers absolutely...A few differences with Seaver though. Clemens and the rest pitched for good teams with solid team support throughout their careers... which made them better pitchers IMO.
As I recall in Seaver's prime with the Mets, he pitched for a team who consistently gave him 0-2 runs/game of support in any given start. Many games he pitched 10 or more innings, scored the only runs of the game himself and literally dragged the Mets team to victory (and beyond) himself.... for 10 years!! Seaver made the Mets better baseball players...that's the difference. I cannot say that about any of the above pitchers.
As Carlton Fisk said in a a tough game late in Seaver's career, when he had nothing left in the tank when Tom was ready to throw in the towel, "your Tom f****ing Seaver!" Carlton and Bench new!!
Won this lot the other day. Seemed like i got a good deal. Probably nothing super high grade but there are some nice looking cards in there. Excited to get these and check them out!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Topps-O-PEE-CHEE-LOT-18-HOF-Bob-Gibson-Morgan-Hunter-Simmons-Fingers-/154762661859?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m2548.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
Not sure if this stat held up for his entire career, but at the time Seaver was traded to the Reds, he had the highest win percentage differential above his own team's winning percentage in baseball history.
Late 60's and early to mid 70's non-sports
Clemens would be right there with Seaver.
Ex Major League Umpire Ron Luciano said that when Ryan had his curveball "working" batters had no chance against him and they knew it.
Of course Ryan didn't always have command of his curve.
Picked up this nice 1966 Mantle at the recent Toronto Expo. I like this Mantle better than the 67 because of the batting pose.
The 2 Daves of 1974 OPC
A 79 OPC Ozzie PSA 9 sold for a little over $2000 while a Topps sold for a little over $2200 in the same auction(4 Sharp Corners). OPC closing the gap on 79 Topps Ozzie or just a blip? 1979 OPC Ozzie getting the love as it should.
1979 Ozzie Smith population
opc psa 9 - 38 opc psa 10 - 2
Topps PSA 9 - 380 topps psa 10 - 5
Total graded by PSA;
OPC 708
Topps 10,085
Looks like there is at least 10 times as many topps as OPC. The OPC will be a slam dunk soon.
I agree 100%! The OPC HOF rookies are getting seriously underrated.
I believe Seaver was 12-3 lifetime against Carlton.
I watched Seaver like many others here. I can only imagine Seaver on Peds. Clemens achievements starting with Blue Jays has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Here are two nice examples of post -1971 Topps vs OPC picture quality, focus & color density and depth differences...
Great autograph too!
OPC Murray has been closing the gap with its Topps counterpart.
Bought this years ago, 150 bucks
Not so. no evidence Clemens ever used. this has been discussed here a whole bunch. Mitchell found an ex employee of Clemens who had an axe to grind. there was no evidence.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That is a fantastic OPC Murray. I have a few raw ones, but not that nice.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If ever a card looked worthy of review, this is the one. Looks 10 all day.
Thanks @craig44 and @stevegarveyfan
I never gave it too much thought.
At the time of purchase, I think Topps was about $300 for a 9.
I bought the OPC to save a couple bucks, I always felt a little disappointed not owning the "more important" Topps brand.
Today, Im happier owning the rarer OPC and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
Here's back scan:
Slight tilt?
Awesome Card! Would be happy to own that one. I will have to settle for my measly PSA 8 lol
don't agree on clemens not using? prove me wrong...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Awesome Murray. I opened several boxes of 78 OPCs and have found some nice 8’s.
SoftParade / Dan can share a few of the raw nice ones he got from me.
He's working on the OJ verdict first
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This 75 Aaron is so nice! The Topps version is just not equal to the registration and color. You are lucky to have it.
Yes, but I have seen worse 10s. I think it meets the criteria for a PSA 10.
Not the way they grade them now, I'm afraid.
You don't want to be convinced. I rather conserve my energy.
I regret selling this beauty!
That one looks like a 10 to me!
I have researched the case for years. inside and out. there is nothing there. people like to parrot what they heard on ESPN 15+ years ago.
there is an old saying that is very appropriate for this:
A lie, when told enough, becomes the truth. that is exactly what happened in the Clemens case
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Plus, we got a brand new word: misremembered.
Love that word.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Physicality
Nolan will always be more valuable due to popularity. Even though Seaver was better.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
I agree - part of that popularity is due to playing in front of an extra generation of fans. They started a year apart but playing an extra 7 years with the ESPN pre NBA coverage that baseball was getting in the early 90s gave Ryan a lot more exposure. The strikeout record helps solidify his place in history.
Seaver was a special pitcher - it was strange that once he got to the White Sox nobody really talked about him even in Chicago. He had stopped striking people out at that point in his career but was still a very good pitcher. I think people don’t realize how well he was still pitching at 40. There was a perception he hung around too long which was not the case.
Paul Molitor was a much better hitter then Mark McGwire. But people love(d) the Big Mac!!!
Some of my non gradable, but cool pulls from OPC rips. (Carlton might be worth submitting).
And a few more…
I'm constantly surprised to see McGwire (and Sosa) written about as though PEDs are the only thing keeping them from the HoF. They both hit a lot of home runs, but were so one dimensional that they weren't all that effective. Not Dave Kingman ineffective, but not in the top twenty best players not enshrined.