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Topps VS OPC baseball observations...

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  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @daltex said:

    @olb31 said:
    Paul Molitor was a much better hitter then Mark McGwire. But people love(d) the Big Mac!!!

    I'm constantly surprised to see McGwire (and Sosa) written about as though PEDs are the only thing keeping them from the HoF. They both hit a lot of home runs, but were so one dimensional that they weren't all that effective. Not Dave Kingman ineffective, but not in the top twenty best players not enshrined.

    I won't argue on behalf of Sosa, but McGwire not in the top 20 best players not enshrined? He's in the top 1 of players (or 2 if we're counting Mr. Taterhead) not enshrined in OPS, OPS+, WPA, and just about every other good stat. Since he cheated, $%&@ him and the horse he rode in on, but had he not cheated I'd count him among the 50 best players ever, enshrined or not, and Paul Molitor would have been honored to shine his shoes. To say that McGwire hit "a lot" of home runs is to grossly miss the scale of what steroids allowed him to do. Dave Kingman hit "a lot" of home runs; McGwire hit an order of magnitude more. And McGwire was not "one dimensional": his career OPS+ of 163 consists of 44 points for slugging, but also 19 points for OBP, almost twice as much above average as Paul Molitor (and four times Molitor in slugging above average).

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • SeaverfanSeaverfan Posts: 80 ✭✭✭

    I am not a Cardinals or A's fan. I am not a Mcgwire fan specifically.

    From a baseball fans point of view, I believe Mark Mcgwire was a great ballplayer. The home run race with Sosa saved baseball when it was most needed IMO. He deserves the HOF.

    From a collecting point of view, his rookie card is outstanding, rare and a must have in high grade.

    Sorry to ruffle feathers but that's how I see it.

    Same goes for Bonds and Clemens IMO.

  • SeaverfanSeaverfan Posts: 80 ✭✭✭

    I really wish OPC would have produced his 1985 rookie card as well. That would have been a great card with deep color and sharp focus. Can you guys imagine!

  • balco758balco758 Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Redlegs
    Wow those are some beauties. Congrats.

  • EldoEsqEldoEsq Posts: 73 ✭✭✭

    A couple of others... gossage looks very undergraded to me!

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dallasactuary said:

    @daltex said:

    @olb31 said:
    Paul Molitor was a much better hitter then Mark McGwire. But people love(d) the Big Mac!!!

    I'm constantly surprised to see McGwire (and Sosa) written about as though PEDs are the only thing keeping them from the HoF. They both hit a lot of home runs, but were so one dimensional that they weren't all that effective. Not Dave Kingman ineffective, but not in the top twenty best players not enshrined.

    I won't argue on behalf of Sosa, but McGwire not in the top 20 best players not enshrined? He's in the top 1 of players (or 2 if we're counting Mr. Taterhead) not enshrined in OPS, OPS+, WPA, and just about every other good stat. Since he cheated, $%&@ him and the horse he rode in on, but had he not cheated I'd count him among the 50 best players ever, enshrined or not, and Paul Molitor would have been honored to shine his shoes. To say that McGwire hit "a lot" of home runs is to grossly miss the scale of what steroids allowed him to do. Dave Kingman hit "a lot" of home runs; McGwire hit an order of magnitude more. And McGwire was not "one dimensional": his career OPS+ of 163 consists of 44 points for slugging, but also 19 points for OBP, almost twice as much above average as Paul Molitor (and four times Molitor in slugging above average).

    When I look at McGwire, I focus on his first 5-6 seasons, ignoring 1986 when he played in 18 games.

    This was the only significant period of time he played in almost every game and we can assume he was "clean", or at least not getting much performance "boost" if he was using.

    After a wonderful rookie season he settled in to being a very nice slugger. Better than Kingman and not as good as Killebrew.

    His first 759 games his SLG was .487, OBP .352 and he hit a very respectable 14.87 HR per AB.

    He also played in almost every game, averaging 152 games a year.

    The next 10 seasons_ his numbers exploded_, he slugged .653 and hit a HR for every 8.7 AB. Almost exactly the same as Babe Ruth's lifetime averages. At this point, I put no stock in his OBP as pitchers are just going to walk a guy who hits a HR every other game.

    I did a quick look and found that Killebrew, Mantle, Berra, Colavito, Mays and Kaline each had their best SLG in their first 6 full seasons, so I think it's safe to say that if it's not the best period for hitters to SLG, historically they don't jump much. Certainly not 166 points! Barry PotatoHead's numbers are similar to McGwire's.

    The guy goes from Dave Kingman to Babe Ruth, admits to using steroids and is being considered for the HOF.......................really?

    What a joke.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Seaverfan said:

    >

    The home run race with Sosa saved baseball.

    >
    I am always surprised that anyone actually believes that season (or any single year) is credited with "saving baseball". As I see it, that season ultimately is better described as the one that destroyed baseball.

    Does anyone here actually believe that the MLB would have shut down if 1998 hadn't happened? If so, the cure was worse than the disease.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • SeaverfanSeaverfan Posts: 80 ✭✭✭

    These points will be argued forever. I see both sides. But...

    There are too many stories to ignore... Players in the 60's, 70's and 80's were popping "uppers" or stimulants particularly for day games after a night games or between double headers or....162 games is a very long season. It use was common practice.

    Among other things, "uppers" stimulate the fight or flight response, ie, improve awareness and reflex action, dilate the pupils, increase blood flow to the brain and muscles etc. They are truly performance enhancers and were commonly used during that time period and effected game play numbers- hits, stolen bases, home runs, strikeouts... By how much we will never know.

    Steroids as anabolic hormones, do simulate the formation of more muscle mass and strength, but most importantly shorten the time for muscle repair and recovery. This is where the real advantage and performance enhancement is. It allows professional athletes to recover from injury more quickly and perhaps extend a given season, which translates into bigger numbers. By how much we will never know.

    Although banned in 1991, MLB did not even use league wide testing for PED's until 2003! And in doing steroids were commonly used. By how much we will never know.

    Other factors can and still do legally and illegally improve player numbers including...... "corked" bats, new generations of PED's, "juiced" baseballs, "pine tar stick". By how much we will never know.

    So I don't judge the past anymore. McGwire was a great ball player in his time and IMO belongs in the HOF as does Clemens and Bonds.

    Thank G-D for baseball and baseball cards!

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I will not get deeply into it here, as it is a thread about OPC baseball, but we had another thread a month or so ago discussing PED again. Keep im mind folks, Steroids were not even against MLB rules until 2005. that was, what, 4 years after McGwire retired. no reason to keep him out of the hall.

    additionally, Anabolic Steroids were being used at least as early as the 1960s. Tom House has spoken to that. remember, the Tom House who was Nolan Ryans pitching coach...

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I will not get deeply into it here, as it is a thread about OPC baseball, but we had another thread a month or so ago discussing PED again. Keep im mind folks, Steroids were not even against MLB rules until 2005. that was, what, 4 years after McGwire retired. no reason to keep him out of the hall.

    In 1990, Congress cracked down on anabolic steroids with the Anabolic Steroids Control Act, which effectively made them an illegal drug. Steroids made it to baseball's banned substance list in 1991. These are the facts.
    >

    additionally, Anabolic Steroids were being used at least as early as the 1960s. Tom House has spoken to that. remember, the Tom House who was Nolan Ryans pitching coach...

    >
    Steroid use that made ballplayers better began in about 1986 when Jose Canseco learned how to achieve benefits and taught other players how to get those benefits.

    Why you would cast aspersions on Nolan Ryan while at the same time defending Roger Clemens makes no sense whatsoever.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @craig44 said:
    I will not get deeply into it here, as it is a thread about OPC baseball, but we had another thread a month or so ago discussing PED again. Keep im mind folks, Steroids were not even against MLB rules until 2005. that was, what, 4 years after McGwire retired. no reason to keep him out of the hall.

    In 1990, Congress cracked down on anabolic steroids with the Anabolic Steroids Control Act, which effectively made them an illegal drug. Steroids made it to baseball's banned substance list in 1991. These are the facts.
    >

    additionally, Anabolic Steroids were being used at least as early as the 1960s. Tom House has spoken to that. remember, the Tom House who was Nolan Ryans pitching coach...

    >
    Steroid use that made ballplayers better began in about 1986 when Jose Canseco learned how to achieve benefits and taught other players how to get those benefits.

    Why you would cast aspersions on Nolan Ryan while at the same time defending Roger Clemens makes no sense whatsoever.

    I wont get into it with you here Joe because i dont want to completely derail this thread. if you want to go over to sportstalk and start a new thread, I will gladly hash it out. again.

    remember, we did this just a month or two ago. there is no banned substance list until it is collectively bargained between both sides. that is how it works in an anti-trust protected entity. Steroids first made it to the banned list in the offseason after the 2004 season for the 2005 season. that is just irrefutable.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As I stated before (and we can be done on this thread) illegal drugs need not be negotiated "out of" any collective bargaining agreement. fair warning was given to the players that using steroids was illegal and thus outlawed in the entire country. You simply can't allow something that is against the law to be allowed until the next contract comes along.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Picked up two biggies this week.

    1981 OPC Raines psa 9, here are the stats

                         PSA 9              PSA 10                   Total
    

    Topps 1378 170 4900

    Donruss 659 301 1600

    OPC 72 7 200

    No brainer here. The OPC Version is far and above the one and only rookie you would want

    1975 OPC Yount PSA 8

                    PSA 8              PSA 9                        Total
    

    Topps 2217 261 9700

    OPC 41 3 175

    incredible diffference here. Only 3 9's. There are more Topps psa 9 Yount's than the entire population of OPC Yount's graded.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:
    Picked up two biggies this week.

    1981 OPC Raines psa 9, here are the stats

                         PSA 9              PSA 10                   Total
    

    Topps 1378 170 4900

    Donruss 659 301 1600

    OPC 72 7 200

    No brainer here. The OPC Version is far and above the one and only rookie you would want

    1975 OPC Yount PSA 8

                    PSA 8              PSA 9                        Total
    

    Topps 2217 261 9700

    OPC 41 3 175

    incredible diffference here. Only 3 9's. There are more Topps psa 9 Yount's than the entire population of OPC Yount's graded.

    I think the Yount is a fantastic card. not nearly as talked about as the brett, but just as rare. and a great player. one of the greatest SS seasons ever in 1982

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Last night a PSA 7 1974 OPC Schmidt sold for $600. Topps sales for around $75 - $100. Things they are a changing.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • Mikeygiggs_336699Mikeygiggs_336699 Posts: 154 ✭✭✭✭

    That’s a great price for that card! Would it be because it’s his first card as a solo as they would prefer that card over the rookie stars 1973? I would think that sale would bump up the prices for his 1973 OPC in 7 and up. > @olb31 said:

    Last night a PSA 7 1974 OPC Schmidt sold for $600. Topps sales for around $75 - $100. Things they are a changing.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:
    Last night a PSA 7 1974 OPC Schmidt sold for $600. Topps sales for around $75 - $100. Things they are a changing.

    that is an amazing sale. maybe the tides are turning.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • GansetttimeGansetttime Posts: 232 ✭✭✭

    @Mikeygiggs_336699 said:
    That’s a great price for that card! Would it be because it’s his first card as a solo as they would prefer that card over the rookie stars 1973? I would think that sale would bump up the prices for his 1973 OPC in 7 and up. > @olb31 said:

    Last night a PSA 7 1974 OPC Schmidt sold for $600. Topps sales for around $75 - $100. Things they are a changing.

    The leaders in the Schmidt PSA Master Set Registry are very active and competitive with each other. Their copies are in lower grade, would not surprise me in the least if they bid against each other.
    It's a tough card to find, let alone in top grade.

  • Mikeygiggs_336699Mikeygiggs_336699 Posts: 154 ✭✭✭✭

    @Gansetttime said:

    @Mikeygiggs_336699 said:
    That’s a great price for that card! Would it be because it’s his first card as a solo as they would prefer that card over the rookie stars 1973? I would think that sale would bump up the prices for his 1973 OPC in 7 and up. > @olb31 said:

    Last night a PSA 7 1974 OPC Schmidt sold for $600. Topps sales for around $75 - $100. Things they are a changing.

    The leaders in the Schmidt PSA Master Set Registry are very active and competitive with each other. Their copies are in lower grade, would not surprise me in the least if they bid against each other.
    It's a tough card to find, let alone in top grade.

    Thats a good point. 1974 OPC is very tough to find in high grade so any of the rookies or HOF stars would command a premium over their regular Topps issues.

  • balco758balco758 Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A few OPC rookies + 81 Ozzie


  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,691 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Due to a production strike at the factory that year, 1974 OPC is especially tough so a premium for those cards is not surprising.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • Mikeygiggs_336699Mikeygiggs_336699 Posts: 154 ✭✭✭✭

    @purduepete said:
    Here are some pics of my complete 1969 set in the binder...I love the magenta backs!

    Love those backs! Great set!

  • Mikeygiggs_336699Mikeygiggs_336699 Posts: 154 ✭✭✭✭

    Just saw that a 1975 OPC off-centered Brett PSA 6 just a few days ago had sold for almost $500 US more than double its counterpart Topps in same grade in recent comps. OPC looking good right now!

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mikeygiggs_336699 said:
    Just saw that a 1975 OPC off-centered Brett PSA 6 just a few days ago had sold for almost $500 US more than double its counterpart Topps in same grade in recent comps. OPC looking good right now!

    thats good information. I missed it because i usually only track the higher grades. lots of topps comps. some under 200.

    both good and bad news for us OPC collectors. our current collections look like they may start increasing in value, but, on the other hand, cards we need may be increasing in price.

    at any rate, I am glad OPC is finally just beginning to hit the mainstream

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the 75 brett is my favorite OPC of all time. I just love how the colors pop on both the front and back. the back is easier to read because the coloring is so much lighter and i love the slightly rough edges. most are not as "hairy" as other years of opc like 78's seem to be.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Incredible, I absolutely love binder sets, particularly when the cards are in fantastic condition. That must be fun to look through.

    @purduepete said:
    Here are some pics of my complete 1969 set in the binder...I love the magenta backs!

  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is an awesome 1969 set. Thanks for sharing. The mays and clemente look great, as well as the nettles and oliver,

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1980 opc ryan psa 7 sold for $200. That's huge.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1978 PSA 8 murray sold for $320.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • detroitfan2detroitfan2 Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭✭

    Before I knew he was going to be such a snapperhead, I was a huge Rose fan as a kid. This card (image not mine) always intrigued me:

    Curious if there are other significant "updated teams" beyond the Rose in the O-Pee-Chee cards throughout the years?

  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 4,262 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2022 7:34PM

    @detroitfan2 said:

    Curious if there are other significant "updated teams" beyond the Rose in the O-Pee-Chee cards throughout the years?

    Your image is not loading, so I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but 2 cards with OPC updated relative to the Topps versions as far as teams goes are:

    1971 Jackie Hernandez

    1980 Nolan Ryan

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,691 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2022 7:34PM

    @detroitfan2 said:
    Before I knew he was going to be such a snapperhead, I was a huge Rose fan as a kid. This card (image not mine) always intrigued me:

    Curious if there are other significant "updated teams" beyond the Rose in the O-Pee-Chee cards throughout the years?

    Nice card, and very recently graded, too! Yes, they did that with 78 and 80, also. Interesting concept in that it was never done by Topps (aside from separate Traded sets). The 1980 OPC Ryan is a noteworthy example.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • Mikeygiggs_336699Mikeygiggs_336699 Posts: 154 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Mikeygiggs_336699 said:
    Just saw that a 1975 OPC off-centered Brett PSA 6 just a few days ago had sold for almost $500 US more than double its counterpart Topps in same grade in recent comps. OPC looking good right now!

    thats good information. I missed it because i usually only track the higher grades. lots of topps comps. some under 200.

    both good and bad news for us OPC collectors. our current collections look like they may start increasing in value, but, on the other hand, cards we need may be increasing in price.

    at any rate, I am glad OPC is finally just beginning to hit the mainstream

    Yes! For the longest time the 1965 OPC Morgan/Jackson rookie in PSA 8 currently on ebay was being offered as a buy it now for $1000 US and was sitting on my watch list for the longest time and contemplating pulling the trigger but not budging thinking that it won't ever get sold so I didn't think anything of it, It gets sold and is now being offered at $3000. Oh well..........

  • balco758balco758 Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice Murray Tim! Great centering.

  • jayhawkejayhawke Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭

    @miwlvrn said:

    @detroitfan2 said:

    Curious if there are other significant "updated teams" beyond the Rose in the O-Pee-Chee cards throughout the years?

    Your image is not loading, so I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but 2 cards with OPC updated relative to the Topps versions as far as teams goes are:

    1971 Jackie Hernandez

    1980 Nolan Ryan

    1980 OPC Tony Perez in an Expos uniform, "now with Red Sox" and the Red Sox banner on the card.

  • SeaverfanSeaverfan Posts: 80 ✭✭✭

    Boy, the PSA 8 and PSA 9 OPC Murray rookies are both beautiful! It can be so difficult to see signficant differences particularly with an OPC 8 and 9, with "rough" cut edges and corners.... Both look great in this case.

  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1974 OPC PARKER UNGRADED just sold for $250.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • Mikeygiggs_336699Mikeygiggs_336699 Posts: 154 ✭✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:
    1974 OPC PARKER UNGRADED just sold for $250.

    Wow! Greg Morris raw card eBay auction sold it, It looks like it would grade a solid 7

  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Last night several big auctions went off on EBAY - 4 sharp corners

    1985 opc psa 10 gooden $2,300
    1980 opc brett psa 10 $1,600
    1973 opc aaron alltime HR - psa 9 - $1,000
    1965 opc aaron psa 8 $2,200
    1985 opc puckett psa 10 $2,500

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • @1966CUDA said:
    Wanting to send in these OPC cards..just dont want to pay the higher grading fees (sorry about the bad pic..crappy cell phone) !

    Awesome! Good Luck on the 67 Mantles when you do send them and the 66 Looks nicely centered in the pic. Quality OPC Star Power there!

  • @olb31 said:
    Last night several big auctions went off on EBAY - 4 sharp corners

    1985 opc psa 10 gooden $2,300
    1980 opc brett psa 10 $1,600
    1973 opc aaron alltime HR - psa 9 - $1,000
    1965 opc aaron psa 8 $2,200
    1985 opc puckett psa 10 $2,500

    1980 is a shorter print run I believe compared to the other 80s OPC issues. Great Prices on all those cards.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the price on the gooden surprises me. very strong price for that card. I guess Doc still has many fans.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • johfrjohfr Posts: 95 ✭✭✭

    That 1965 Aaron in an 8 seems like a relative bargain compared to the 1985 Gooden.

  • olb31olb31 Posts: 3,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @johfr said:
    That 1965 Aaron in an 8 seems like a relative bargain compared to the 1985 Gooden.

    I agree.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
  • balco758balco758 Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Any guesses what a 75 OPC Aaron 660 in PSA 9 would fetch?

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