Did anyone see the extreme show of force on display during the Sutler token portion of Hayden's auction? A bidder showed up and dropped almost $50,000 on four unique Ohio pieces that were struck in Cu-Ni! Multiples of the pre-auction estimate. Lot 335 alone went for over $15,000! I was stunned. I think that was the highest price I've ever seen for a token sold on Steve's website.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I also saw that happen and was amazed. Those went beyond crazy prices. I think he was estimating 2000-3000 for those. I haven't seen the prices realized list yet but I would bet that it was Steve's best selling auction yet. Very strong prices for many of the lots. I was able to get three lots but had bid on many others.
Well the auction was interesting. I didn’t see the sutler info until you mentioned it here. But now that I see it...Wow, just Wow.
I can say that on the three patriotics I had narrowed my focus to, I was not able to win any of them. I saw two bidders come in late and offer strong money those and also for many other day 2 tokens. The one I thought I bid really high for, went for more then double the high end estimate.
That said, I was able to win two. One from day one and one from day 2. Funny thing was, they were probably the two tokens I liked best on the first day the catalog came out, but didn’t think I had a chance at, so started liking some other tokens.
So, I will go first off the Hayden recent auction. For day 1, I had probably targeted 10-15 storecards that I would have been interested in. My focus was primarily on New York with a Fuld or Rossa pedigree, or designs that I don’t typically look at such as some of the eagle reverses or mercury head. I dabbled with the idea of picking up a die sinker token or an overstruck indian cent, but wanted to “ stay in my lane” because I needed funds for patriotics and also for the other type of coins I collect. Threads like this (and some of the posters) are severely tempting me to wander, but I am trying to stay focused. As the auction started, family distractions came up. Some of the simple more common NY tokens I was interested in went at fair/cheap prices, but I wasn’t online to up my bid. By the time I was able to check-in, the one token I had put the fairest bid in, was coming up. I thought it would sky rocket in price, but surprise surprise, my bid held. After that, there wasn’t money to make runs at other coins, because I was saving for day 2. That said, I really liked the Philip Best Lager token in Copper. That was going to be my last stand, but it appears that the bidder that won the Sutlers, won that coin....So I was likely destined to fail.
So what did I win on day 1. The Washington Market Turkey token. For some reason, I have been trying to add one of these to my collection for the past year. Many do not have a good strike or look, and the few that I have seen, either sell quickly or sell for very strong money. I think two or 3 others sold recently, so maybe the demand was down a bit. But I liked this token from the first day of the catalog, it’s supposed anti war slogan kind of fits/ counters/ balances the patriotic theme, and it is a very recognizable token. So that made it a fit for me.
I was going to put quick screen shots here from the auction description, but image posting is not working tonight. I will add my photos once it is in hand.
Ohh, and I am looking forward to seeing at least one of our board members pics. I really liked one of the tokens they won, and it is the type that tempt me to leave my lane.
@DCW said:
Did anyone see the extreme show of force on display during the Sutler token portion of Hayden's auction? A bidder showed up and dropped almost $50,000 on four unique Ohio pieces that were struck in Cu-Ni! Multiples of the pre-auction estimate. Lot 335 alone went for over $15,000! I was stunned. I think that was the highest price I've ever seen for a token sold on Steve's website.
How do you know that they are unique, were their die sinker records to provide that kind of info/estimate. Or are you assuming what has been found over the years or possibly from opinions from noted experts that are just learned opinions is all? Just curious, when I hear unique my ears perk up but I am usually disappointed that in reality there are others out there, they are just not discussed for a multitude of reasons.
@trueblood
While we can never be 100% sure if a token is unique, they are listed as such by the experts whose opinions have been formed from years of searching. After almost 160 years of CWT collecting, you would think if another existed it might show up by now. There is always the possibility that another comes along, especially when an auction brings $15k for a single token like this one has. Money flushes a lot of obscure pieces to the surface.
When they are so well preserved like the ones I mentioned, it leads me to believe that they are indeed "numismatic strikes" and not meant for commerce. If you know anything about Ohio tokens, there are a good deal of them struck in copper nickel that are presumed unique in that composition. Die sinker records simply do not exist, so we go with what we know in regard to estimating rarity.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
So, the auction winnings arrived today. Once again, technology is not my friend. I took some nice pics with my better camera, but the Bluetooth function wasn’t working so I wasn’t able to download them directly direct to the iPad, so I ended up taking quick iPad photos again.
Per my post above about day 1 of the auction, here is the token that I won. Very pleased with it in hand.
@DCW said: @trueblood
While we can never be 100% sure if a token is unique, they are listed as such by the experts whose opinions have been formed from years of searching. After almost 160 years of CWT collecting, you would think if another existed it might show up by now. There is always the possibility that another comes along, especially when an auction brings $15k for a single token like this one has. Money flushes a lot of obscure pieces to the surface.
When they are so well preserved like the ones I mentioned, it leads me to believe that they are indeed "numismatic strikes" and not meant for commerce. If you know anything about Ohio tokens, there are a good deal of them struck in copper nickel that are presumed unique in that composition. Die sinker records simply do not exist, so we go with what we know in regard to estimating rarity.
One thing I find very strange about all the numismatic strikes of CWTs is that it seems the original buyers of these numismatic strikes tends to be unknown.
Who was collecting CWTs in the 1860s and would have ordered these?
I'm guessing some of the founders the the ANS in New York City may have been collecting / ordering these but it seems no information is available. Did any ANS founders gift any numismatic strikes to the ANS in the 1860s?
Day 2 of Hayden’s auction had patriotic cwt’s. This is probably more my core collecting area. As with day 1, the token that I ended up winning was probably the token I really wanted when the catalog first came out. However once again, it was slightly strange how it played out.
This was one of four tokens that I really thought would fit well with my collection. The first token up was bid high a day before the auction. Then with an hour to go, one of two new bidders took it even higher(well over estimate). Oh well, onto the token I really liked, for those following, it was the cannon token 168/311. I have owned one or two of these before, but there was always something I didn’t like about my tokens. Although this was only graded ms63, I LOVED the look. I put what I thought was a mildly nuclear bid. But Boom! I was out bid with 45 minutes still to go. Bid was almost 2x high estimate, so back to the token below. I solidified my bid, still a fair price and well within estimate, and took the lead...I was surprised, The bid held, so it was now time to watch the cannon and last token I liked. Boom again! More bids over the high bids I thought were too high. The cannon went for over 2x estimate and well above anything I have ever seen one of them get sold for. The last token also ended up at 2x high estimate.
So in the end, the token I expected to go well over the high estimate, didn’t. The three more commonly seen tokens (albeit these were nicer) all went for very strong money. There were at least two strong bidders that came in late, bid strong, and seemed to like just about everything I liked.
Once again, I LOVE this token in hand. Only thing I was a little bummed about was that it was an ex Bowers, and R&T token with a record back to 1997. It arrived in a fresh pcgs holder , not one of the holders that has the Bowers /R&T reference. I kind of wanted that pedigree on this particular token/holder, even though I already have other tokens in that type of holder.
@SimpleCollector said:
Once again, I LOVE this token in hand. Only thing I was a little bummed about was that it was an ex Bowers, and R&T token with a record back to 1997. It arrived in a fresh pcgs holder , not one of the holders that has the Bowers /R&T reference. I kind of wanted that pedigree on this particular token/holder, even though I already have other tokens in that type of holder.
That looks nice and congrats for winning it!
Sorry to hear about the loss of the holder! I wonder why someone would do that. The PCGS cert verification also shows no provenance. Would you be able to match it via photos and get PCGS to add the provenance?
Here's the TrueView. Looks like a minor clipped planchet on the reverse at 12 o'clock. There also seems to be a small die crack at 3 o'clock on the reverse.
1864 Major General George Brinton McClellan U.S.A. - Patriotic Civil War Token - by F.C. Key & Sons - Silver - R9 - Fuld-142/347-f, DeWitt-GMcC 1864-38 - PCGS MS63 POP 1/0 - Ex. Q. David Bowers Reference Collection, Michael Parkoff
I was able to pick up the silver recently. I really like the design and was happy to win it.
Although this is a PCGS POP 1/0 the John J. Ford Jr. specimen is out there and graded NGC MS67*. That one appears to be much more heavily toned so I appreciate the look on this one.
When looking at both of these, there's a lot of space under the bust. I wonder if there was an intention to add the year and they just forgot?
@DCW said: @trueblood
While we can never be 100% sure if a token is unique, they are listed as such by the experts whose opinions have been formed from years of searching. After almost 160 years of CWT collecting, you would think if another existed it might show up by now. There is always the possibility that another comes along, especially when an auction brings $15k for a single token like this one has. Money flushes a lot of obscure pieces to the surface.
When they are so well preserved like the ones I mentioned, it leads me to believe that they are indeed "numismatic strikes" and not meant for commerce. If you know anything about Ohio tokens, there are a good deal of them struck in copper nickel that are presumed unique in that composition. Die sinker records simply do not exist, so we go with what we know in regard to estimating rarity.
One thing I find very strange about all the numismatic strikes of CWTs is that it seems the original buyers of these numismatic strikes tends to be unknown.
Who was collecting CWTs in the 1860s and would have ordered these?
I'm guessing some of the founders the the ANS in New York City may have been collecting / ordering these but it seems no information is available. Did any ANS founders gift any numismatic strikes to the ANS in the 1860s?
There were a few CWT added to the ANS collection contemporaneously, but not many.
Here was the first that I know of. 1864 token of James Foster of Chicago. Copper-nickel. Listed as R-10 in the database, not sure what the current rarity rating is. Donated by Isaac Wood. The rest of the donation consisted primarily of British Isles stuff, some US copper coins and 1850s merchants tokens, but no other CWT.
Other donations of CWTs to the ANS during the 1860s came from C.W. Idell and John Hanna, but these were after the war. None again until Daniel Parish donated several between 1889 and 1898. American Numismatic Society, 1864.41.38
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS). Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
@DCW said: @trueblood
While we can never be 100% sure if a token is unique, they are listed as such by the experts whose opinions have been formed from years of searching. After almost 160 years of CWT collecting, you would think if another existed it might show up by now. There is always the possibility that another comes along, especially when an auction brings $15k for a single token like this one has. Money flushes a lot of obscure pieces to the surface.
When they are so well preserved like the ones I mentioned, it leads me to believe that they are indeed "numismatic strikes" and not meant for commerce. If you know anything about Ohio tokens, there are a good deal of them struck in copper nickel that are presumed unique in that composition. Die sinker records simply do not exist, so we go with what we know in regard to estimating rarity.
One thing I find very strange about all the numismatic strikes of CWTs is that it seems the original buyers of these numismatic strikes tends to be unknown.
Who was collecting CWTs in the 1860s and would have ordered these?
I'm guessing some of the founders the the ANS in New York City may have been collecting / ordering these but it seems no information is available. Did any ANS founders gift any numismatic strikes to the ANS in the 1860s?
There were a few CWT added to the ANS collection contemporaneously, but not many.
Here was the first that I know of. 1864 token of James Foster of Chicago. Copper-nickel. Listed as R-10 in the database, not sure what the current rarity rating is. Donated by Isaac Wood. The rest of the donation consisted primarily of British Isles stuff, some US copper coins and 1850s merchants tokens, but no other CWT.
Other donations of CWTs to the ANS during the 1860s came from C.W. Idell and John Hanna, but these were after the war. None again until Daniel Parish donated several between 1889 and 1898. American Numismatic Society, 1864.41.38
Great info Jesse! An Isaac Wood donation is historic! Thanks for sharing it!
It’s not Thursday, so decided to post here instead of the Thursday thread. Certain tokens seem hard to find anything with eye appeal. This is one of them, I see them offered periodically, but the token is either struck poorly or doesn’t have eye appeal. I had been following this one, hoping others didn’t bid it up. Based on Hayden’s recent auctions many ms65 tokens go for strong money, so I was prepared to bid fairly high, but luck was on my side, and I got this for what used to be a fair price, which means compared to recent results, it seemed cheap...Hope you like it.
I had two new tokens arrive today from the HA auction about 2 weeks ago. I was trying to decide where to post them, when I re-read this thread from the beginning. I must say it is a great thread and has lots of eye candy for those interested in Civil War tokens. I noticed that I had mentioned a few times that I would take a pic of my collection, but never did. As I tried to decide where to put these new tokens in my trays, I decided to take a few pictures of the entire family. Unfortunately, I still can’t get all 9 tokens to show up great in one photo, but I figured this would give some insight into where my CWT token collecting has drifted. While I used to have more patriotic tokens, and also had some store cards, I realized a few things:
I like well struck tokens with eye appeal. Some tokens just aren’t struck well, but could still be ms64-66. If it is from a rough, or worn die or very week strike, it isn’t for me. This means some token designs will never be in my collection
-many designs or f numbers are very similar, I lost interest in trying to get each of the common designs. So I sold some that didn’t meet the first criteria above, and have added some new designs
-I liked the store cards I acquired and sometimes found some good deals, but my core interest is patriotic tokens. And storecards seems to be an endless pursuit. Seems there are much more than with the patriotics, and I don’t have the funds to chase everything. So the storecards were sold.
-as token/exonumia interest increases, costs are going up. That said, it always seems something interesting or at a good price comes up. It is hard to stay focused, but the satisfaction of finding a token that you have been looking for with the right look , feels really good.
I would love to see parts of some collections or groups of tokens and the reasons why people acquired them posted. Here is my collection as it stands today.
Nice pickup. I'm sure you know this already, but all of Bowers' collection pretty much got Trueviewed and you can find them by entering the cert number:
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Here are three gems I recently handled. Weighell & Son's operated a business called "Excelsior Tobacco Works" out of Cincinnati, OH. The regular storecard is very rare and considered a kind of holy grail to the many tokens of Cincinnati. At least one of each die was muled with the Lincoln campaign medal as pictured below.
Ex. Bowers, Ex. Zabriskie
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
1863 For Public Accomodation United States Copper Civil War Token - Silver - Fuld-37/434 f - NGC MS62 POP 1/1/1 - Ex. Julius Guttag; Melvin and George Fuld; Donald G. Partrick
A classic Civil War Token with Phrygian cap and eagle. in silver with an illustrious provenance of Guttag, Fuld and Partrick.
@DCW said: @Zoins Nice one! And great provenance, too. Surprising they didn't list Guttag on the label
Guttag is a great name so I'm curious too. Perhaps it was unclear if Guttag was a collector in this instance?
I like the Partrick coins because they also have a long provenance outside of QDB reference set. It's almost like most of the CWTs with long provenance chains were from QDB before the Partrick collection came out.
Well it’s been months since a new addition from me. Not sure if everyone got distracted over the summer, or were priced out of the market on lots of items like i was, or perhaps the lack of much new material slowed things down.
Any ways this token appeared and I liked the look from first seeing it. It arrived today, and to me , it’s the type of token that when you see it in hand are even happier than seeing the pics.
I think in hand it actually looks better than both my pics(which always happens) but also than the truviews(which almost never happens).
NY-630H-1fo Stk Over 1861 25C J.L. Bode, Birdstuffer PCGS MS64 ex. T.Harrison Garrett
I've posted this one before, but since it is one of the "jewels" of my collection, I will leave it here for posterity.
The iconic stag design was made by famed New York diesinker, Louis Roloff. "Birdstuffer," in those days, was a term given to taxidermists.
It has always been interesting to people to find on the reverse that Mr. Bode paired this unusual profession at North William St with the sale of "Bohemian Fancy Glassworks."
All Civil War tokens struck on coins are rare. The cents, being the most attainable. Followed by dimes. And the rarest of them all, quarters. Probably because the size lent well to using cents and to a lesser extent the dimes. But, it was also alot more costly, as 25c actually meant something back then. Laborers earned 10c/hour.
This amazing overstrike was purchased by T. Harrison Garrett in Haseltine's 65th auction on March 1, 1883. It remained in the storied Garrett Family Collection for almost a century until it was sold in 1981. Bill Anton was the buyer and held ownership for nearly four decades.
The undertype is very strong, especially the eagle:
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@DCW said: NY-630H-1fo Stk Over 1861 25C J.L. Bode, Birdstuffer PCGS MS64 ex. T.Harrison Garrett
I've posted this one before, but since it is one of the "jewels" of my collection, I will leave it here for posterity.
The iconic stag design was made by famed New York diesinker, Louis Roloff. "Birdstuffer," in those days, was a term given to taxidermists.
It has always been interesting to people to find on the reverse that Mr. Bode paired this unusual profession at North William St with the sale of "Bohemian Fancy Glassworks."
All Civil War tokens struck on coins are rare. The cents, being the most attainable. Followed by dimes. And the rarest of them all, quarters. Probably because the size lent well to using cents and to a lesser extent the dimes. But, it was also alot more costly, as 25c actually meant something back then. Laborers earned 10c/hour.
This amazing overstrike was purchased by T. Harrison Garrett in Haseltine's 65th auction on March 1, 1883. It remained in the storied Garrett Family Collection for almost a century until it was sold in 1981. Bill Anton was the buyer and held ownership for nearly four decades.
The undertype is very strong, especially the eagle:
New one: F-255/393a Copper Knickerbocker Currency Patriotic, PCGS MS66+BN, ex. Rich Hartzog
A common token in uncommon condition. This one just dazzles in hand.
Here is its harder to find counterpart in brass: F-255/393b Brass Knickerbocker Currency Patriotic, PCGS MS65, ex. Q.David Bowers
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
F-174/272a Copper First In War, First In Peace Patriotic PCGS MS66RB
Here is another very common token in awesome condition. Really pops in hand. Ex. Rich Hartzog
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
This thread has been very quiet lately. Not sure if interest in CWT’s is waning or if others are just having trouble finding nice tokens at reasonable prices (that’s my situation). Anyways, just added this piece to my collection. The attached sellers pics are very representative of the coin in hand( I couldn’t get a better pic).
Over the past few weeks either a few new pieces have shown up or my searching ability is getting better, as I have finally seen a few nice pieces or nice pieces being relisted. The problem is that what should be $175-$275 token are listing for $400-$550. I am seeing some pieces from the summer and fall that I was interested in, being relisted. Not sure who will buy them, as they are higher than the prices that I and others wouldn’t pay before.
So for me it will be interesting to see how the market progresses. For the high grade nice eye appealing, but common r1-r4 type tokens, I always thought they were interesting for <$200 maybe stretching to $225 sometimes. More and more people seem to want to try and profit from what appear to be rising prices, however I just see dealers and flippers relisiting. The thing with these tokens is that there are literally hundreds/thousands of types, so I think any collectors just move on to a different one.
I would be interesting in hearing what others think about the CWT market these days.
Nice piece and nice to see this thread going again.
CWTs, in my opinion, are continuing to rise in value and popularity. Maybe not here on the US Coin forum, but auctions tell the tale..
The market is up right now on seemingly everything hobby related (except for maybe stamps?🤔)
Tokens and medals right now are no exception. Things that seemed expensive a few years ago have in some cases doubled in price. They're just really interesting pieces of history to most people when introduced to them. Even the most "common" tokens would be considered scarce in US coinage terms. Yes, the market is much smaller. And that is why the potential for price jumps exists like no other area in our hobby.
Just take a look at the prices for John Adams Bolen's pieces over the last 10 years if you do not agree. Enter a few collectors with deep pockets, and the rarer R8-10s pieces have no ceiling.
Someone used to buying 5 figure coins on the weekend is not going to lose a piece over 500 bucks. Especially when it becomes available once or twice in a lifetime.
Here is a medal from the Civil War, 1863 or so, that I posted in another thread: Maj. Gen. Philip Kearny by Joseph H. Merriam in 31mm copper, PCGS SP64
Love the Christmas colors on this one!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
WOW - these are mind blowing. Love the CWT's. I have 12 - 20, but none as nice as these. Every once in a while a find a good deal on a CWT. I always keep looking for a really nice one.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
I bought this from David Kahn with no thought and no foundation of knowledge. I just liked it and I guess that is as good a reason as any. Is there a preferred source of info on these Civil War Store Cards?
@SimpleCollector said:
This thread has been very quiet lately. Not sure if interest in CWT’s is waning or if others are just having trouble finding nice tokens at reasonable prices (that’s my situation).
My situation is the latter. For a while I was on a tear but it's been difficult to find pieces I'm interested in lately.
The last sales of note for me were the Donald Partrick and Michael Parkoff sales, along with the large Steve Hayden auction on his own site.
Here are a few tokens I have that I consider scarce to rare. it always amazes me that some of these high-rarity pieces are still very affordable.
I'll post in several different successive threads. If anyone knows much about any of these , please comment liberally, as I am a bit of a novice here.
Thanks.
Next is a tough Kentucky Storecard. Unfortunately, the obverse is inferior to the reverse (the reverse is nice. It is an 1863 Fuld 150D-2a. The obverse has some residue and has been wiped.
Next is another lead token. the pics aren't very good and the token is a bit corroded, which I think is common with lead. Still, it is a tougher rarity piece.
Finally a storecard that is identified as a rarity, but i am not sure it is R-9 as described. Still, it is a Fuld 630BT and I believe it is a bit tougher. Any comments welcomed!
Having heard no comment or information, I'll add a few more that I just received received grades for ....
1863 Token F-115E-1a Good for a Scent MA, BN MS65BN --Obverse is more RB than BN, but with a mildly distracting obverse spot on the "A."
1864 Token F-460J-2a Copper RE Charles Kuhn IN, BN MS64BN-tough piece--Beautiful and colorful piece with tons of luster. I have not found another 2a and I think it is R-8.
1863 Token F-115E-2a Jos. H. Merriam MA, RD MS64RD--Another tough piece in full red. I thought this would grade higher but based upon the pics, I understand. But it has blazing red toning!
1853 Token Miller NY-949A H.B. West's Trained Dogs New York--MS-66---Not quite a CWT, but still a beautiful piece of 1853 history.
Comments
Did anyone see the extreme show of force on display during the Sutler token portion of Hayden's auction? A bidder showed up and dropped almost $50,000 on four unique Ohio pieces that were struck in Cu-Ni! Multiples of the pre-auction estimate. Lot 335 alone went for over $15,000! I was stunned. I think that was the highest price I've ever seen for a token sold on Steve's website.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I also saw that happen and was amazed. Those went beyond crazy prices. I think he was estimating 2000-3000 for those. I haven't seen the prices realized list yet but I would bet that it was Steve's best selling auction yet. Very strong prices for many of the lots. I was able to get three lots but had bid on many others.
ANA-LM, CWTS-LM, NBS, TAMS, ANS
Well the auction was interesting. I didn’t see the sutler info until you mentioned it here. But now that I see it...Wow, just Wow.
I can say that on the three patriotics I had narrowed my focus to, I was not able to win any of them. I saw two bidders come in late and offer strong money those and also for many other day 2 tokens. The one I thought I bid really high for, went for more then double the high end estimate.
That said, I was able to win two. One from day one and one from day 2. Funny thing was, they were probably the two tokens I liked best on the first day the catalog came out, but didn’t think I had a chance at, so started liking some other tokens.
Some crazy high prices but I was able to pick up some as well.
Can't wait to see everyone's winnings
So, I will go first off the Hayden recent auction. For day 1, I had probably targeted 10-15 storecards that I would have been interested in. My focus was primarily on New York with a Fuld or Rossa pedigree, or designs that I don’t typically look at such as some of the eagle reverses or mercury head. I dabbled with the idea of picking up a die sinker token or an overstruck indian cent, but wanted to “ stay in my lane” because I needed funds for patriotics and also for the other type of coins I collect. Threads like this (and some of the posters) are severely tempting me to wander, but I am trying to stay focused. As the auction started, family distractions came up. Some of the simple more common NY tokens I was interested in went at fair/cheap prices, but I wasn’t online to up my bid. By the time I was able to check-in, the one token I had put the fairest bid in, was coming up. I thought it would sky rocket in price, but surprise surprise, my bid held. After that, there wasn’t money to make runs at other coins, because I was saving for day 2. That said, I really liked the Philip Best Lager token in Copper. That was going to be my last stand, but it appears that the bidder that won the Sutlers, won that coin....So I was likely destined to fail.
So what did I win on day 1. The Washington Market Turkey token. For some reason, I have been trying to add one of these to my collection for the past year. Many do not have a good strike or look, and the few that I have seen, either sell quickly or sell for very strong money. I think two or 3 others sold recently, so maybe the demand was down a bit. But I liked this token from the first day of the catalog, it’s supposed anti war slogan kind of fits/ counters/ balances the patriotic theme, and it is a very recognizable token. So that made it a fit for me.
I was going to put quick screen shots here from the auction description, but image posting is not working tonight. I will add my photos once it is in hand.
Ohh, and I am looking forward to seeing at least one of our board members pics. I really liked one of the tokens they won, and it is the type that tempt me to leave my lane.
How do you know that they are unique, were their die sinker records to provide that kind of info/estimate. Or are you assuming what has been found over the years or possibly from opinions from noted experts that are just learned opinions is all? Just curious, when I hear unique my ears perk up but I am usually disappointed that in reality there are others out there, they are just not discussed for a multitude of reasons.
@trueblood
While we can never be 100% sure if a token is unique, they are listed as such by the experts whose opinions have been formed from years of searching. After almost 160 years of CWT collecting, you would think if another existed it might show up by now. There is always the possibility that another comes along, especially when an auction brings $15k for a single token like this one has. Money flushes a lot of obscure pieces to the surface.
When they are so well preserved like the ones I mentioned, it leads me to believe that they are indeed "numismatic strikes" and not meant for commerce. If you know anything about Ohio tokens, there are a good deal of them struck in copper nickel that are presumed unique in that composition. Die sinker records simply do not exist, so we go with what we know in regard to estimating rarity.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
So, the auction winnings arrived today. Once again, technology is not my friend. I took some nice pics with my better camera, but the Bluetooth function wasn’t working so I wasn’t able to download them directly direct to the iPad, so I ended up taking quick iPad photos again.
Per my post above about day 1 of the auction, here is the token that I won. Very pleased with it in hand.
One thing I find very strange about all the numismatic strikes of CWTs is that it seems the original buyers of these numismatic strikes tends to be unknown.
Who was collecting CWTs in the 1860s and would have ordered these?
I'm guessing some of the founders the the ANS in New York City may have been collecting / ordering these but it seems no information is available. Did any ANS founders gift any numismatic strikes to the ANS in the 1860s?
Perhaps @JesseKraft would know?
Day 2 of Hayden’s auction had patriotic cwt’s. This is probably more my core collecting area. As with day 1, the token that I ended up winning was probably the token I really wanted when the catalog first came out. However once again, it was slightly strange how it played out.
This was one of four tokens that I really thought would fit well with my collection. The first token up was bid high a day before the auction. Then with an hour to go, one of two new bidders took it even higher(well over estimate). Oh well, onto the token I really liked, for those following, it was the cannon token 168/311. I have owned one or two of these before, but there was always something I didn’t like about my tokens. Although this was only graded ms63, I LOVED the look. I put what I thought was a mildly nuclear bid. But Boom! I was out bid with 45 minutes still to go. Bid was almost 2x high estimate, so back to the token below. I solidified my bid, still a fair price and well within estimate, and took the lead...I was surprised, The bid held, so it was now time to watch the cannon and last token I liked. Boom again! More bids over the high bids I thought were too high. The cannon went for over 2x estimate and well above anything I have ever seen one of them get sold for. The last token also ended up at 2x high estimate.
So in the end, the token I expected to go well over the high estimate, didn’t. The three more commonly seen tokens (albeit these were nicer) all went for very strong money. There were at least two strong bidders that came in late, bid strong, and seemed to like just about everything I liked.
Once again, I LOVE this token in hand. Only thing I was a little bummed about was that it was an ex Bowers, and R&T token with a record back to 1997. It arrived in a fresh pcgs holder , not one of the holders that has the Bowers /R&T reference. I kind of wanted that pedigree on this particular token/holder, even though I already have other tokens in that type of holder.
I am looking forward to see what others won.
That looks nice and congrats for winning it!
Sorry to hear about the loss of the holder! I wonder why someone would do that. The PCGS cert verification also shows no provenance. Would you be able to match it via photos and get PCGS to add the provenance?
Here's the TrueView. Looks like a minor clipped planchet on the reverse at 12 o'clock. There also seems to be a small die crack at 3 o'clock on the reverse.
1864 Major General George Brinton McClellan U.S.A. - Patriotic Civil War Token - by F.C. Key & Sons - Silver - R9 - Fuld-142/347-f, DeWitt-GMcC 1864-38 - PCGS MS63 POP 1/0 - Ex. Q. David Bowers Reference Collection, Michael Parkoff
I was able to pick up the silver recently. I really like the design and was happy to win it.
Although this is a PCGS POP 1/0 the John J. Ford Jr. specimen is out there and graded NGC MS67*. That one appears to be much more heavily toned so I appreciate the look on this one.
When looking at both of these, there's a lot of space under the bust. I wonder if there was an intention to add the year and they just forgot?
There were a few CWT added to the ANS collection contemporaneously, but not many.
Here was the first that I know of. 1864 token of James Foster of Chicago. Copper-nickel. Listed as R-10 in the database, not sure what the current rarity rating is. Donated by Isaac Wood. The rest of the donation consisted primarily of British Isles stuff, some US copper coins and 1850s merchants tokens, but no other CWT.
Other donations of CWTs to the ANS during the 1860s came from C.W. Idell and John Hanna, but these were after the war. None again until Daniel Parish donated several between 1889 and 1898.
American Numismatic Society, 1864.41.38
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
Great info Jesse! An Isaac Wood donation is historic! Thanks for sharing it!
Shout out to @SteveHayden!
Glad to see you posting here and thanks for a wonderful auction!
Love your avatar token too! Great color on that Samuel Hensel Zahm (1840-1893) store card by Robert Lovett Jr.!
It’s not Thursday, so decided to post here instead of the Thursday thread. Certain tokens seem hard to find anything with eye appeal. This is one of them, I see them offered periodically, but the token is either struck poorly or doesn’t have eye appeal. I had been following this one, hoping others didn’t bid it up. Based on Hayden’s recent auctions many ms65 tokens go for strong money, so I was prepared to bid fairly high, but luck was on my side, and I got this for what used to be a fair price, which means compared to recent results, it seemed cheap...Hope you like it.
I had two new tokens arrive today from the HA auction about 2 weeks ago. I was trying to decide where to post them, when I re-read this thread from the beginning. I must say it is a great thread and has lots of eye candy for those interested in Civil War tokens. I noticed that I had mentioned a few times that I would take a pic of my collection, but never did. As I tried to decide where to put these new tokens in my trays, I decided to take a few pictures of the entire family. Unfortunately, I still can’t get all 9 tokens to show up great in one photo, but I figured this would give some insight into where my CWT token collecting has drifted. While I used to have more patriotic tokens, and also had some store cards, I realized a few things:
-many designs or f numbers are very similar, I lost interest in trying to get each of the common designs. So I sold some that didn’t meet the first criteria above, and have added some new designs
-I liked the store cards I acquired and sometimes found some good deals, but my core interest is patriotic tokens. And storecards seems to be an endless pursuit. Seems there are much more than with the patriotics, and I don’t have the funds to chase everything. So the storecards were sold.
-as token/exonumia interest increases, costs are going up. That said, it always seems something interesting or at a good price comes up. It is hard to stay focused, but the satisfaction of finding a token that you have been looking for with the right look , feels really good.
I would love to see parts of some collections or groups of tokens and the reasons why people acquired them posted. Here is my collection as it stands today.
A new addition that I am thrilled with:
Tanenbaum -Bowers - Tampa to here
Nice pickup. I'm sure you know this already, but all of Bowers' collection pretty much got Trueviewed and you can find them by entering the cert number:
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Here's another Coin Dealer from the 1860s; (C1860) PHILA PA
M-PA-230F
W. IDLER, COIN DEALER
NGC MS 63
Here are three gems I recently handled. Weighell & Son's operated a business called "Excelsior Tobacco Works" out of Cincinnati, OH. The regular storecard is very rare and considered a kind of holy grail to the many tokens of Cincinnati. At least one of each die was muled with the Lincoln campaign medal as pictured below.
Ex. Bowers, Ex. Zabriskie
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Let's bring this to the top again
1863 For Public Accomodation United States Copper Civil War Token - Silver - Fuld-37/434 f - NGC MS62 POP 1/1/1 - Ex. Julius Guttag; Melvin and George Fuld; Donald G. Partrick
A classic Civil War Token with Phrygian cap and eagle. in silver with an illustrious provenance of Guttag, Fuld and Partrick.
@Zoins Nice one! And great provenance, too. Surprising they didn't list Guttag on the label
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Guttag is a great name so I'm curious too. Perhaps it was unclear if Guttag was a collector in this instance?
I like the Partrick coins because they also have a long provenance outside of QDB reference set. It's almost like most of the CWTs with long provenance chains were from QDB before the Partrick collection came out.
Well it’s been months since a new addition from me. Not sure if everyone got distracted over the summer, or were priced out of the market on lots of items like i was, or perhaps the lack of much new material slowed things down.
Any ways this token appeared and I liked the look from first seeing it. It arrived today, and to me , it’s the type of token that when you see it in hand are even happier than seeing the pics.
I think in hand it actually looks better than both my pics(which always happens) but also than the truviews(which almost never happens).
https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/42166400/large/222045947.jpg
NY-630H-1fo Stk Over 1861 25C J.L. Bode, Birdstuffer PCGS MS64 ex. T.Harrison Garrett
I've posted this one before, but since it is one of the "jewels" of my collection, I will leave it here for posterity.
The iconic stag design was made by famed New York diesinker, Louis Roloff. "Birdstuffer," in those days, was a term given to taxidermists.
It has always been interesting to people to find on the reverse that Mr. Bode paired this unusual profession at North William St with the sale of "Bohemian Fancy Glassworks."
All Civil War tokens struck on coins are rare. The cents, being the most attainable. Followed by dimes. And the rarest of them all, quarters. Probably because the size lent well to using cents and to a lesser extent the dimes. But, it was also alot more costly, as 25c actually meant something back then. Laborers earned 10c/hour.
This amazing overstrike was purchased by T. Harrison Garrett in Haseltine's 65th auction on March 1, 1883. It remained in the storied Garrett Family Collection for almost a century until it was sold in 1981. Bill Anton was the buyer and held ownership for nearly four decades.
The undertype is very strong, especially the eagle:
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Here's a new one I picked up.
LOVE THIS !!! thx for sharing !!!
Top 10 Cal Fractional Type Set
successful BST with Ankurj, BigAl, Bullsitter, CommemKing, DCW(7), Downtown1974, Elmerfusterpuck, Joelewis, Mach1ne, Minuteman810430, Modcrewman, Nankraut, Nederveit2, Philographer(5), Realgator, Silverpop, SurfinxHI, TomB and Yorkshireman(3)
On Wisconsin!
New one:
F-255/393a Copper Knickerbocker Currency Patriotic, PCGS MS66+BN, ex. Rich Hartzog
A common token in uncommon condition. This one just dazzles in hand.
Here is its harder to find counterpart in brass:
F-255/393b Brass Knickerbocker Currency Patriotic, PCGS MS65, ex. Q.David Bowers
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
F-174/272a Copper First In War, First In Peace Patriotic PCGS MS66RB
Here is another very common token in awesome condition. Really pops in hand.
Ex. Rich Hartzog
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Nice coloring. Thanks for posting it.
Nice tokens everyone. A very enjoyable thread.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
This thread has been very quiet lately. Not sure if interest in CWT’s is waning or if others are just having trouble finding nice tokens at reasonable prices (that’s my situation). Anyways, just added this piece to my collection. The attached sellers pics are very representative of the coin in hand( I couldn’t get a better pic).
Over the past few weeks either a few new pieces have shown up or my searching ability is getting better, as I have finally seen a few nice pieces or nice pieces being relisted. The problem is that what should be $175-$275 token are listing for $400-$550. I am seeing some pieces from the summer and fall that I was interested in, being relisted. Not sure who will buy them, as they are higher than the prices that I and others wouldn’t pay before.
So for me it will be interesting to see how the market progresses. For the high grade nice eye appealing, but common r1-r4 type tokens, I always thought they were interesting for <$200 maybe stretching to $225 sometimes. More and more people seem to want to try and profit from what appear to be rising prices, however I just see dealers and flippers relisiting. The thing with these tokens is that there are literally hundreds/thousands of types, so I think any collectors just move on to a different one.
I would be interesting in hearing what others think about the CWT market these days.
Here’s my recent addition:
Nice piece and nice to see this thread going again.
CWTs, in my opinion, are continuing to rise in value and popularity. Maybe not here on the US Coin forum, but auctions tell the tale..
The market is up right now on seemingly everything hobby related (except for maybe stamps?🤔)
Tokens and medals right now are no exception. Things that seemed expensive a few years ago have in some cases doubled in price. They're just really interesting pieces of history to most people when introduced to them. Even the most "common" tokens would be considered scarce in US coinage terms. Yes, the market is much smaller. And that is why the potential for price jumps exists like no other area in our hobby.
Just take a look at the prices for John Adams Bolen's pieces over the last 10 years if you do not agree. Enter a few collectors with deep pockets, and the rarer R8-10s pieces have no ceiling.
Someone used to buying 5 figure coins on the weekend is not going to lose a piece over 500 bucks. Especially when it becomes available once or twice in a lifetime.
Here is a medal from the Civil War, 1863 or so, that I posted in another thread:
Maj. Gen. Philip Kearny by Joseph H. Merriam in 31mm copper, PCGS SP64
Love the Christmas colors on this one!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Don't know much about this one.
WOW - these are mind blowing. Love the CWT's. I have 12 - 20, but none as nice as these. Every once in a while a find a good deal on a CWT. I always keep looking for a really nice one.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
I bought this from David Kahn with no thought and no foundation of knowledge. I just liked it and I guess that is as good a reason as any. Is there a preferred source of info on these Civil War Store Cards?
@slowhand
The preferred reference is "U.S. Civil War Storecards" by George Fuld. It is currently on the 3rd edition.
You can buy it here at the Civil War Token Society, which I highly recommend joining.
http://www.cwtsociety.com/books.shtml
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Thank you for the pointer.
Thanks for the link. It looks very good. I just wish more publishers would publish electronic / PDF versions of numismatic references.
My situation is the latter. For a while I was on a tear but it's been difficult to find pieces I'm interested in lately.
The last sales of note for me were the Donald Partrick and Michael Parkoff sales, along with the large Steve Hayden auction on his own site.
Here are a few tokens I have that I consider scarce to rare. it always amazes me that some of these high-rarity pieces are still very affordable.
I'll post in several different successive threads. If anyone knows much about any of these , please comment liberally, as I am a bit of a novice here.
Thanks.
Tom
Here one I really like. Not great condition but it is unusual and, as an off-metal in lead, a bit tough to find. I believe this is a Fuld 630CF-1g
Tom
Tom
Next is another lead token. the pics aren't very good and the token is a bit corroded, which I think is common with lead. Still, it is a tougher rarity piece.
Tom
Finally a storecard that is identified as a rarity, but i am not sure it is R-9 as described. Still, it is a Fuld 630BT and I believe it is a bit tougher. Any comments welcomed!
Tom
Here is a new arrival. Slowly adding to my patriotic CWT’s.
Having heard no comment or information, I'll add a few more that I just received received grades for ....
1863 Token F-115E-1a Good for a Scent MA, BN MS65BN --Obverse is more RB than BN, but with a mildly distracting obverse spot on the "A."
1864 Token F-460J-2a Copper RE Charles Kuhn IN, BN MS64BN-tough piece--Beautiful and colorful piece with tons of luster. I have not found another 2a and I think it is R-8.
1863 Token F-115E-2a Jos. H. Merriam MA, RD MS64RD--Another tough piece in full red. I thought this would grade higher but based upon the pics, I understand. But it has blazing red toning!
1853 Token Miller NY-949A H.B. West's Trained Dogs New York--MS-66---Not quite a CWT, but still a beautiful piece of 1853 history.
Tom
Those are some really nice, and interesting, CW Tokens. Thanks for showing them.