@keets said:
examples have been posted about coins that CAC gives a green sticker to, then the owner upgrades one point and the coin gets another green sticker from CAC. you can call that what you want, I call it JA being susceptible to the same things everyone is when it comes to grading coins.
One thing that's been pointed out in previous CAC threads is that JA may have been afraid to give a gold sticker to a coin where the edge wasn't visible. After the coin was upgraded into a pronged holder, another green sticker may not have been inconsistent. I'm not saying I totally buy into this explanation, but am just throwing it out there.
The only purpose for a CAC sticker, it expands your pool of buyers, reason for higher prices/returns. But the CAC sticker came about from a group of collectors that let JA know, they would buy more if there was a verification system in place so they could buy sight-unseen without having to go to coin shows, learn how to grade coin, cut down the trips to the PO to return coins that they believed were misgraded. These folks have families, day jobs 60-70 hours a week. People who don't have the time to be what it takes to buy solid graded coins that hold their values. So I think the guy with the discouraging CAC disclaimer is a little short sighted. They have found someone's opinion they have come to trust and that's what they want and will pay up for.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Regarding CAC, what's wrong with buying what you like?
I can see thee issue that @BillJones raises when you already have a lot of pre-CAC coins.
But if you're buying new coins, non-CAC are cheaper to buy and sell. CAC are more expensive to buy and sell, so which ever you pick you will get out what you put in, aside from making your own CAC and dramatic market changes while holding.
@amwldcoin said:
Most that play in my area don't need a 2nd opinion, or PCGS for that matter. My average sales price of over 2000 pieces is probably around double PCGS price guide! I've got a few pieces in my collection I've probably paid 5 times PCGS price guide.
>
I wonder even how much more than the prices your coins sold for you would have received had you spent just $15 for each to get stickered? I’d imagine a lot more than that $15 cost.
I was thinking, presumably the majority of the profit differential gained by the bean is for the person who got the bean in the first place.
Hypothetical:
So person buys coin at $100, gets it beaned and sells for $140. The next owner wouldn’t logically be able to sell at $196 and the one after that at $275 in ever increasing fashion. The second owner would likely have to sell around $140 and the price would settle at that level unless some other external factors come into play. So the second and beyond owners will sell for far less margin than the original beaner.
A lot of the discussion is about how much more a beaned coin sells for but little about cost of acquisition. So other than the original owner who got it beaned all this does is create a new price level in between grades it seems and probably similar profit levels for all buyers and sellers except the first. Very similar to the first person who got it slabbed.
All of this, of course, is aside from external factors that might impact pricing.
@csdot said:
Looking at the dealer's posted disclaimer, it could be this dealer is in a state of denial over the fact that CAC is now demanded by the market. Could be he is irritated at being told over and over that his non-CAC coins (even the ones he had bought cheap from a widow because they were raw and he had them slabbed - and therefore he knows never went to CAC) are going to be judged as having failed to achieve a bean because that's what today's market demands?
I had a dealer once tell me that CAC is not something he values on a coin because he observed another dealer with a roll of bean stickers putting them on the coins. This was 5-10 years ago when I was first hearing about CAC, so maybe the dealer saw something; or maybe he was confused about what stickers the other dealer was applying; or maybe he just made up this story to explain why he wasn't going to assume the added cost of CAC for his inventory.
There is a digital CAC inventory on the CAC site. You could not pass off a fake sticker as real to anyone with a computer and any rudimentary intelligence.
Tell that to the slab/coin counterfeiters that rip valid serial numbers from Heritage and Stacks-Bowers.
So you think this dealer was counterfeiting slabs and then putting beans on them?
Sure, could happen. Of course, that being the case, the slabs won't help you either and even the coins could be good counterfeits. So, might as well collect stamps.
But the real profit isn't in the fake green bean, it's in the fake slab itself. Really greedy counterfeiter wants that extra 10%.
No. I was responding to your assertion (as I read it) that CAC’s database of stickered coins is sufficient to deter fake CAC stickers.
I was responding to a poster who claimed that a dealer friend had seen another dealer with a roll of stickers. Seems unlikely any dealer would try such a thing.
@cameonut2011 said:
P.S. Stickers appear to have intrinsic value of their own. Look at the premium gold CACs were fetching for the longest time even on Uber common coins.
It's like certain vintage slabs. People buy the "rarity" of the slab/sticker combo. Watch on great collections when a rattler with a gold CAC comes up. They usually sell for well over what an upgrade would justify.
@cameonut2011 said:
P.S. Stickers appear to have intrinsic value of their own. Look at the premium gold CACs were fetching for the longest time even on Uber common coins.
It's like certain vintage slabs. People buy the "rarity" of the slab/sticker combo. Watch on great collections when a rattler with a gold CAC comes up. They usually sell for well over what an upgrade would justify.
That's not totally irrational since the coin could upgrade by more than a point, and sometimes does. But in general I agree that there's a premium being paid for the packaging.
@cameonut2011 said:
P.S. Stickers appear to have intrinsic value of their own. Look at the premium gold CACs were fetching for the longest time even on Uber common coins.
It's like certain vintage slabs. People buy the "rarity" of the slab/sticker combo. Watch on great collections when a rattler with a gold CAC comes up. They usually sell for well over what an upgrade would justify.
That's not totally irrational since the coin could upgrade by more than a point, and sometimes does. But in general I agree that there's a premium being paid for the packaging.
I didn't say it's irrational. It's just a "thing".
And if it is a gold coin with a gold CAC in an old rattler, sky's the limit.
Some comments i have noticed seem to suggest that the premium for cac approval is a way to arbitrarily make coins rarer and therefore charge a premium.
However, in the coin world we have many ways we make coins "rarer" and therefore command a premium. The most obvious is we pay more for the same coin if it is in a higher grade (this has not always been the case---years ago condition was secondary).Pcgs brings more than ngc. Certain holders from certain time periods bring more. Some collect varieties and charge a premium. Some pay a premium for toning. Some will pay a premium if the coin has a plus but is still the same grade as a coin without a plus. Some will pay a premium because of who owned the coin before.
In other words, i am not sure why a premium for cac is so much different than these other premiums. It makes sense to me that an old holder may be worth more (evidence the coin is stable, maybe from a period of time of strict grading, etc). Likewise, it makes sense to me that a coin with a sticker from cac would command a premium knowing that one of the top numismatists has decided it was solid for its grade and has not been improperly altered.
Personally, i have little interests in varieties and would not pay a premium but certainly understand those who do and do not get upset that they do. The same with wild toning.
Coin collecting can be done many ways and by definition some of those ways will make certain coins rarer and command a premium.
@Gazes said:
However, in the coin world we have many ways we make coins "rarer" and therefore command a premium. The most obvious is we pay more for the same coin if it is in a higher grade (this has not always been the case---years ago condition was secondary).
I don’t know when paying more for a higher was other then the norm. And that includes years before third party grading was widespread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Gazes said:
However, in the coin world we have many ways we make coins "rarer" and therefore command a premium. The most obvious is we pay more for the same coin if it is in a higher grade (this has not always been the case---years ago condition was secondary).
I don’t know when paying more for a higher was other then the norm. And that includes years before third party grading was widespread.
Before my (and your😊) time but i recall reading that in the 1880s/1920s collectors were much less concerned with condition.
@Gazes said:
However, in the coin world we have many ways we make coins "rarer" and therefore command a premium. The most obvious is we pay more for the same coin if it is in a higher grade (this has not always been the case---years ago condition was secondary).
I don’t know when paying more for a higher was other then the norm. And that includes years before third party grading was widespread.
Before my (and your😊) time but i recall reading that in the 1880s/1920s collectors were much less concerned with condition.
This is what i was referring to as well. Im trying to remember where i read it but apparently there was a time when collecting the date was all that mattered to most. Regardless, my point is there are so many collector made "conditions" that make a coin rarer-----cac is just one of many.
Take a non collector and show them a ms-64 coin and the same coin in ms-65 and see their reaction when you tell them the 65 sells for 2x , 3x or sometimes 10x more.
we pay more for the same coin if it is in a higher grade (this has not always been the case---years ago condition was secondary).
this sounds like an Urban Myth and not something I am aware of. all the old school price guides I have ever seen separated coins for sale by grade.
there was a time when collecting the date was all that mattered to most. Regardless, my point is there are so many collector made "conditions" that make a coin rarer-----cac is just one of many.
you might be remembering wrong and really thinking about when collectors weren't concerned with Mint Mark collecting. to the "grade" issue, it doesn't really relate to making a coin any "rarer" but only more expensive. sometimes things get marketed as a "Condition(al) Rarity" but that's just marketing Set Registry hype.
@keets said: we pay more for the same coin if it is in a higher grade (this has not always been the case---years ago condition was secondary).
this sounds like an Urban Myth and not something I am aware of. all the old school price guides I have ever seen separated coins for sale by grade.
I remember reading something by our Elder Statesman, Q. David Bowers, that when he was a kid (and he started selling coins too at a young age), he would go into a coin shop and pick out the NICEST of the uncirculated coins, since they were all the same price - Uncirculated = Uncirculated = Uncirculated.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Take a non collector and show them a ms-64 coin and the same coin in ms-65 and see their reaction when you tell them the 65 sells for 2x , 3x or sometimes 10x more.
Bingo!
You shudda seen my first Dansco 7070.
I liked it. Got a kick out of the coins. Enjoyed flipping the pages and seeing coins I had NEVER seen before. Some cleaned, some polished, lots dipped.
Collectors-Dealers-investors... Or anyone else for that matter can utilize CAC however they choose. In some instances, the use is well-founded and in other situations where there is a minimal spread or just an abundant supply of a specific coin (an 1881-s Morgan comes to mind) in high grades, there is minimal if any benefit.
Most of what remains in my US collection was graded 20-30 years ago. Several were self submissions. What bothers me immensely is the negative inference because these coins have not been submitted to CAC...and I doubt they ever will. When the first questions about a coin is whether it has a sticker or has it been submitted to CAC tell me that the real interest... which should be the coin... has taken a back seat to a process that does not seem to have reasonable boundaries in terms of needs and benefits. In view of the number of coins that have been submitted to CAC that have a market value of under $250 illustrates my point.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@coinkat said:
Collectors-Dealers-investors... Or anyone else for that matter can utilize CAC however they choose. In some instances, the use is well-founded and in other situations where there is a minimal spread or just an abundant supply of a specific coin (an 1881-s Morgan comes to mind) in high grades, there is minimal if any benefit.
Most of what remains in my US collection was graded 20-30 years ago. Several were self submissions. What bothers me immensely is the negative inference because these coins have not been submitted to CAC...and I doubt they ever will. When the first questions about a coin is whether it has a sticker or has it been submitted to CAC tell me that the real interest... which should be the coin... has taken a back seat to a process that does not seem to have reasonable boundaries in terms of needs and benefits. In view of the number of coins that have been submitted to CAC that have a market value of under $250 illustrates my point.
Why on earth would that bother you immensely? I've never had anything sent to CAC that wasn't about to go on sale and I couldn't care less if people think less of my collection because of it.
When the first questions about a coin is whether it has a sticker or has it been submitted to CAC tell me that the real interest... which should be the coin... has taken a back seat to a process that does not seem to have reasonable boundaries in terms of needs and benefits. In view of the number of coins that have been submitted to CAC that have a market value of under $250 illustrates my point.
this perplexing line of thought parallels what was said maybe 20 years ago about raw coins: "There must be a reason why it isn't in a holder..............." was how it usually went. I have taken heat for some of what I have posted in this thread and this post echoes that, quite often when a sticker is absent a buyer gets nervous even though it seems that they like the coin.
@coinkat said:
When the first questions about a coin is whether it has a sticker or has it been submitted to CAC tell me that the real interest... which should be the coin... has taken a back seat to a process that does not seem to have reasonable boundaries in terms of needs and benefits.
Actually the first questions asked are "Why hasn't the coin been sent in to be slabbed?" and "Why was the coin sent to ABC grading company instead of XYZ?"
MasonG... Good point. Because CAC is involved, I assumed the coin was already stabbed.
Not sure the question why the coin was sent to ABC grading Company instead of XYZ would come before asking about a sticker... But it clearly would be entertained in the thought process in other ways such as....Will it cross?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@coinkat said:
Not sure the question why the coin was sent to ABC grading Company instead of XYZ would come before asking about a sticker...
The intended point is that the coin starts out raw and gets slabbed (or not), so the first questions asked would be about that. Once a coin is in a holder, that's when the sticker questions come up. Sorry for not being clearer.
Do you remember when CAC opened its doors? You would have been hard pressed to find anyone on this forum supporting the idea of a second opinion finalizer of graded TPG slabs.
@Goldbully said:
Do you remember when CAC opened its doors? You would have been hard pressed to find anyone on this forum supporting the idea of a second opinion finalizer of graded TPG slabs.
I remember that indeed. Especially all the “suspense” surrounding it before the announcement.
@Goldbully said:
Do you remember when CAC opened its doors? You would have been hard pressed to find anyone on this forum supporting the idea of a second opinion finalizer of graded TPG slabs.
I remember it well. The vast majority of members here were hostile toward it, or at least skeptical about it. TDN was a notable exception.
@Goldbully said:
Do you remember when CAC opened its doors? You would have been hard pressed to find anyone on this forum supporting the idea of a second opinion finalizer of graded TPG slabs.
Well, I’m one. Based on my Collector Member number, I believe I was one of the first collectors to have applied for submission privileges. No need any longer to be hard pressed to find anyone on this forum originally supporting the idea.
Now, a dozen or so years later, it turns out I was right! Lo and behold, coins with CAC’s tend to sell for higher prices in general than other coins in the same grade; PCGS has fully accepted this “phenomenon” by creating CAC Composite Sets its Registry; CDN has now come out with a stand-alone CAC pricing publication; Heritage now includes CAC pricing in the pricing data it provides on its listings of coins in its auction; and so on and so on. All are welcome to recognize CAC’s acceptance in the numismatic marketplace!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@coinkat said:
Coinjunkie... Readers' Digest condensed version is I used immensely to reflect a level of frustration that should not exist in a hobby such as this.
Whatever frustration I may have felt along those lines dissipated long ago. The market may have spoken, but if your coins aren't on the market, who cares? And if they're about to go on the market, sending them to CAC is still an option, no matter your personal feelings about the service.
I have always indicated that CAC provides a needed service for certain coins in high grades with significant prices spreads and valuations. I simply do not see CAC as a requirement on lower valued coins with smaller spreads or when a grade is just simply not in controversy.
That is my position and it always has been my position. And this is simply not that complicated to understand
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I remember well when CAC started, I started to notice a few in dealers' cases and asked about them. I don't remember any dealers opining that it would catch on or last very long. I do remember dealers complaining about having to explain them when collectors (including me) would ask about them.
@keets said: When the first questions about a coin is whether it has a sticker or has it been submitted to CAC tell me that the real interest... which should be the coin... has taken a back seat to a process that does not seem to have reasonable boundaries in terms of needs and benefits. In view of the number of coins that have been submitted to CAC that have a market value of under $250 illustrates my point.
this perplexing line of thought parallels what was said maybe 20 years ago about raw coins: "There must be a reason why it isn't in a holder..............." was how it usually went. I have taken heat for some of what I have posted in this thread and this post echoes that, quite often when a sticker is absent a buyer gets nervous even though it seems that they like the coin.
This is quite the prevalent thought process now on the sports card side. Many feel if the card is not slabbed it must have failed in the grading process. This thought is especially believed with raw vintage cards.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
This is quite the prevalent thought process now on the sports card side. Many feel if the card is not slabbed it must have failed in the grading process. This thought is especially believed with raw vintage cards.
Not a sports card collector, so I can't speak to that collecting area. However, I can say that I personally have a number of raw coins that are valuable enough that it would be beneficial to eventually have them slabbed, yet they're not. Why? Well- why should they be, unless I want to sell them, which I don't right now? There are lots of collections out there like this. As an example, have you seen this thread: From Face Value to Major Keys: A humble collection and starting off some YNs
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
This is quite the prevalent thought process now on the sports card side. Many feel if the card is not slabbed it must have failed in the grading process. This thought is especially believed with raw vintage cards.
Not a sports card collector, so I can't speak to that collecting area. However, I can say that I personally have a number of raw coins that are valuable enough that it would be beneficial to eventually have them slabbed, yet they're not. Why? Well- why should they be, unless I want to sell them, which I don't right now? There are lots of collections out there like this. As an example, have you seen this thread: From Face Value to Major Keys: A humble collection and starting off some YNs
I like CAC coins and at next show attend will intensify my efforts see what’s available. However I don’t believe non CAC coins have mark of Cain / many it makes no sense spend money stickering (generic 63 & 64 Morgan dollars with huge pops for example). I have always differentiated between ABC and priced accordingly.
I have never had anyone question if I had CAC coins from my case at a show. Very few setup (Houston) even had some. The few I had some would ask prices on CAC coins I had but not buy. I was able move them online, the A coins moved quicker at a higher margin (very pleased) B ok but not as high. The wholesaler setup next to me (shop owner, many boxes of slabbed coins) did not have any CAC from what I saw.
The CAC thing can see on big ticket material say over $500 or $1000 or some collector who wants pony up money for cac opinion. It is a non factor for a lot of what I do / mods, world, currency. Cac seems to be a big deal on this forum. Many CAC coins (Pcgs market report, CDN articles) have brought multiples of bid. The will it CAC contest thread on coin talk is an excellent analysis and has given me good insights. I am tracking some right now on AS but not interested in them at anything over (non CAC) bid (B coins or nothing I just really want).
I would wager gor many players making CAC coins (pickoff non CAC then CAC) the new crackout game where if higher CAC bid & justifies cost. This type higher CAC bid more prevalent at 66 and 67 level. However buyers at this higher price level necessary (plus they are very picky) make any money and coin one they want badly enough. A coins have potential (blue chip recruits) B coins more like transfers fill hole on roster vs blue chip 5 star A+ potential recruits. A market where bids going up every week or month would increase the synergy of this strategy.
I agree with @Cougar that with lower priced coins the demand for CAC stickers is not as great as for coins above $500/$1,000.
While he has never had anyone at a show question if he had CAC coins in his case, that could be because some CAC coin buyers are like me - as I walk the aisle, I glance at every case, and if there are very few coins (if any) with CAC's, i just keep on walking by. i don't stop to ask if he has any.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Comments
Yeah but these guys represent close to 1/2 of those posts in the thread:
Jmlanzaf: 60 (lost count)
Keets: 34
Cameonut: 33
CoinJunkie: 30
Zoins: 29
And?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Please check your math. I believe it's 31..........
Let's move from CAC to something we can all agree on, like which religion is right
One thing that's been pointed out in previous CAC threads is that JA may have been afraid to give a gold sticker to a coin where the edge wasn't visible. After the coin was upgraded into a pronged holder, another green sticker may not have been inconsistent. I'm not saying I totally buy into this explanation, but am just throwing it out there.
The only purpose for a CAC sticker, it expands your pool of buyers, reason for higher prices/returns. But the CAC sticker came about from a group of collectors that let JA know, they would buy more if there was a verification system in place so they could buy sight-unseen without having to go to coin shows, learn how to grade coin, cut down the trips to the PO to return coins that they believed were misgraded. These folks have families, day jobs 60-70 hours a week. People who don't have the time to be what it takes to buy solid graded coins that hold their values. So I think the guy with the discouraging CAC disclaimer is a little short sighted. They have found someone's opinion they have come to trust and that's what they want and will pay up for.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Regarding CAC, what's wrong with buying what you like?
I can see thee issue that @BillJones raises when you already have a lot of pre-CAC coins.
But if you're buying new coins, non-CAC are cheaper to buy and sell. CAC are more expensive to buy and sell, so which ever you pick you will get out what you put in, aside from making your own CAC and dramatic market changes while holding.
Love this video. For those that want to know more about this, read here:
https://bestsport.news/two-wheels-came-off-the-race-car-f-1-as-if-someone-pressed-the-button-10-years-epic-incident/
Now I understand why you don’t like CAC....
You didn’t realize that the stickers are placed on the holders, not the coins.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Nah...If I did CAC them the price would be raised to whatever it cost me to CAC them. Same holds true for me with raw vrs. certified.
I was thinking, presumably the majority of the profit differential gained by the bean is for the person who got the bean in the first place.
Hypothetical:
So person buys coin at $100, gets it beaned and sells for $140. The next owner wouldn’t logically be able to sell at $196 and the one after that at $275 in ever increasing fashion. The second owner would likely have to sell around $140 and the price would settle at that level unless some other external factors come into play. So the second and beyond owners will sell for far less margin than the original beaner.
A lot of the discussion is about how much more a beaned coin sells for but little about cost of acquisition. So other than the original owner who got it beaned all this does is create a new price level in between grades it seems and probably similar profit levels for all buyers and sellers except the first. Very similar to the first person who got it slabbed.
All of this, of course, is aside from external factors that might impact pricing.
I was responding to a poster who claimed that a dealer friend had seen another dealer with a roll of stickers. Seems unlikely any dealer would try such a thing.
It's like certain vintage slabs. People buy the "rarity" of the slab/sticker combo. Watch on great collections when a rattler with a gold CAC comes up. They usually sell for well over what an upgrade would justify.
That's not totally irrational since the coin could upgrade by more than a point, and sometimes does. But in general I agree that there's a premium being paid for the packaging.
I saw an Gold CAC (gold)coin today on a major dealer’s website. Graded AU50, priced at MS 60+
Without knowing the values of grades 50 through 60+ and what the coin looks like, that doesn’t say much.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Every morning over coffee do bay AS search Pcgs CAC see if something buy.
I didn't say it's irrational. It's just a "thing".
And if it is a gold coin with a gold CAC in an old rattler, sky's the limit.
S> @MFeld said:
Sorry to disappoint you
Most of my posts were because of Jmlanzaf... You should attribute those to him.
if every member gave lanzaf all the "posts he's responsible for" he'd be breathing down RickO's neck on a race to 75k!!
Some comments i have noticed seem to suggest that the premium for cac approval is a way to arbitrarily make coins rarer and therefore charge a premium.
However, in the coin world we have many ways we make coins "rarer" and therefore command a premium. The most obvious is we pay more for the same coin if it is in a higher grade (this has not always been the case---years ago condition was secondary).Pcgs brings more than ngc. Certain holders from certain time periods bring more. Some collect varieties and charge a premium. Some pay a premium for toning. Some will pay a premium if the coin has a plus but is still the same grade as a coin without a plus. Some will pay a premium because of who owned the coin before.
In other words, i am not sure why a premium for cac is so much different than these other premiums. It makes sense to me that an old holder may be worth more (evidence the coin is stable, maybe from a period of time of strict grading, etc). Likewise, it makes sense to me that a coin with a sticker from cac would command a premium knowing that one of the top numismatists has decided it was solid for its grade and has not been improperly altered.
Personally, i have little interests in varieties and would not pay a premium but certainly understand those who do and do not get upset that they do. The same with wild toning.
Coin collecting can be done many ways and by definition some of those ways will make certain coins rarer and command a premium.
I don’t know when paying more for a higher was other then the norm. And that includes years before third party grading was widespread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
With that guy it doesn't matter which way you argue...he'll argue the other side. No matter what you say, he will counter and have a response to it.
Before my (and your😊) time but i recall reading that in the 1880s/1920s collectors were much less concerned with condition.
This is what i was referring to as well. Im trying to remember where i read it but apparently there was a time when collecting the date was all that mattered to most. Regardless, my point is there are so many collector made "conditions" that make a coin rarer-----cac is just one of many.
Take a non collector and show them a ms-64 coin and the same coin in ms-65 and see their reaction when you tell them the 65 sells for 2x , 3x or sometimes 10x more.
we pay more for the same coin if it is in a higher grade (this has not always been the case---years ago condition was secondary).
this sounds like an Urban Myth and not something I am aware of. all the old school price guides I have ever seen separated coins for sale by grade.
there was a time when collecting the date was all that mattered to most. Regardless, my point is there are so many collector made "conditions" that make a coin rarer-----cac is just one of many.
you might be remembering wrong and really thinking about when collectors weren't concerned with Mint Mark collecting. to the "grade" issue, it doesn't really relate to making a coin any "rarer" but only more expensive. sometimes things get marketed as a "Condition(al) Rarity" but that's just marketing Set Registry hype.
I remember reading something by our Elder Statesman, Q. David Bowers, that when he was a kid (and he started selling coins too at a young age), he would go into a coin shop and pick out the NICEST of the uncirculated coins, since they were all the same price - Uncirculated = Uncirculated = Uncirculated.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Bingo!
You shudda seen my first Dansco 7070.
I liked it. Got a kick out of the coins. Enjoyed flipping the pages and seeing coins I had NEVER seen before. Some cleaned, some polished, lots dipped.
How could I have been so dumb?
Collectors-Dealers-investors... Or anyone else for that matter can utilize CAC however they choose. In some instances, the use is well-founded and in other situations where there is a minimal spread or just an abundant supply of a specific coin (an 1881-s Morgan comes to mind) in high grades, there is minimal if any benefit.
Most of what remains in my US collection was graded 20-30 years ago. Several were self submissions. What bothers me immensely is the negative inference because these coins have not been submitted to CAC...and I doubt they ever will. When the first questions about a coin is whether it has a sticker or has it been submitted to CAC tell me that the real interest... which should be the coin... has taken a back seat to a process that does not seem to have reasonable boundaries in terms of needs and benefits. In view of the number of coins that have been submitted to CAC that have a market value of under $250 illustrates my point.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It really is about time to return John Madden's playbook instead of rehashing the same crap over and over again.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Why on earth would that bother you immensely? I've never had anything sent to CAC that wasn't about to go on sale and I couldn't care less if people think less of my collection because of it.
When the first questions about a coin is whether it has a sticker or has it been submitted to CAC tell me that the real interest... which should be the coin... has taken a back seat to a process that does not seem to have reasonable boundaries in terms of needs and benefits. In view of the number of coins that have been submitted to CAC that have a market value of under $250 illustrates my point.
this perplexing line of thought parallels what was said maybe 20 years ago about raw coins: "There must be a reason why it isn't in a holder..............." was how it usually went. I have taken heat for some of what I have posted in this thread and this post echoes that, quite often when a sticker is absent a buyer gets nervous even though it seems that they like the coin.
Actually the first questions asked are "Why hasn't the coin been sent in to be slabbed?" and "Why was the coin sent to ABC grading company instead of XYZ?"
MasonG... Good point. Because CAC is involved, I assumed the coin was already stabbed.
Not sure the question why the coin was sent to ABC grading Company instead of XYZ would come before asking about a sticker... But it clearly would be entertained in the thought process in other ways such as....Will it cross?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The intended point is that the coin starts out raw and gets slabbed (or not), so the first questions asked would be about that. Once a coin is in a holder, that's when the sticker questions come up. Sorry for not being clearer.
Do you remember when CAC opened its doors? You would have been hard pressed to find anyone on this forum supporting the idea of a second opinion finalizer of graded TPG slabs.
Coinjunkie... Readers' Digest condensed version is I used immensely to reflect a level of frustration that should not exist in a hobby such as this.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I remember that indeed. Especially all the “suspense” surrounding it before the announcement.
I remember it well. The vast majority of members here were hostile toward it, or at least skeptical about it. TDN was a notable exception.
Well, I’m one. Based on my Collector Member number, I believe I was one of the first collectors to have applied for submission privileges. No need any longer to be hard pressed to find anyone on this forum originally supporting the idea.
Now, a dozen or so years later, it turns out I was right! Lo and behold, coins with CAC’s tend to sell for higher prices in general than other coins in the same grade; PCGS has fully accepted this “phenomenon” by creating CAC Composite Sets its Registry; CDN has now come out with a stand-alone CAC pricing publication; Heritage now includes CAC pricing in the pricing data it provides on its listings of coins in its auction; and so on and so on. All are welcome to recognize CAC’s acceptance in the numismatic marketplace!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Whatever frustration I may have felt along those lines dissipated long ago. The market may have spoken, but if your coins aren't on the market, who cares? And if they're about to go on the market, sending them to CAC is still an option, no matter your personal feelings about the service.
Really? When have I ever been anything but pro-CAC.
But it's nice that you've all been thinking about me in my absence
I have always indicated that CAC provides a needed service for certain coins in high grades with significant prices spreads and valuations. I simply do not see CAC as a requirement on lower valued coins with smaller spreads or when a grade is just simply not in controversy.
That is my position and it always has been my position. And this is simply not that complicated to understand
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I remember well when CAC started, I started to notice a few in dealers' cases and asked about them. I don't remember any dealers opining that it would catch on or last very long. I do remember dealers complaining about having to explain them when collectors (including me) would ask about them.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
This is quite the prevalent thought process now on the sports card side. Many feel if the card is not slabbed it must have failed in the grading process. This thought is especially believed with raw vintage cards.
Not a sports card collector, so I can't speak to that collecting area. However, I can say that I personally have a number of raw coins that are valuable enough that it would be beneficial to eventually have them slabbed, yet they're not. Why? Well- why should they be, unless I want to sell them, which I don't right now? There are lots of collections out there like this. As an example, have you seen this thread: From Face Value to Major Keys: A humble collection and starting off some YNs
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1040424/from-face-value-to-major-keys-a-humble-collection-and-starting-off-some-yns#latest
Its actually more cost effective to have an auction company submit then when selling-if you sell that way- rather than clean them yourself.
Lots of great raw coins still out there.
I like CAC coins and at next show attend will intensify my efforts see what’s available. However I don’t believe non CAC coins have mark of Cain / many it makes no sense spend money stickering (generic 63 & 64 Morgan dollars with huge pops for example). I have always differentiated between ABC and priced accordingly.
I have never had anyone question if I had CAC coins from my case at a show. Very few setup (Houston) even had some. The few I had some would ask prices on CAC coins I had but not buy. I was able move them online, the A coins moved quicker at a higher margin (very pleased) B ok but not as high. The wholesaler setup next to me (shop owner, many boxes of slabbed coins) did not have any CAC from what I saw.
The CAC thing can see on big ticket material say over $500 or $1000 or some collector who wants pony up money for cac opinion. It is a non factor for a lot of what I do / mods, world, currency. Cac seems to be a big deal on this forum. Many CAC coins (Pcgs market report, CDN articles) have brought multiples of bid. The will it CAC contest thread on coin talk is an excellent analysis and has given me good insights. I am tracking some right now on AS but not interested in them at anything over (non CAC) bid (B coins or nothing I just really want).
I would wager gor many players making CAC coins (pickoff non CAC then CAC) the new crackout game where if higher CAC bid & justifies cost. This type higher CAC bid more prevalent at 66 and 67 level. However buyers at this higher price level necessary (plus they are very picky) make any money and coin one they want badly enough. A coins have potential (blue chip recruits) B coins more like transfers fill hole on roster vs blue chip 5 star A+ potential recruits. A market where bids going up every week or month would increase the synergy of this strategy.
I agree with @Cougar that with lower priced coins the demand for CAC stickers is not as great as for coins above $500/$1,000.
While he has never had anyone at a show question if he had CAC coins in his case, that could be because some CAC coin buyers are like me - as I walk the aisle, I glance at every case, and if there are very few coins (if any) with CAC's, i just keep on walking by. i don't stop to ask if he has any.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996