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A CAC disclaimer that surprised me.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was viewing some coins at a well known dealer's website this morning and I saw an opinion of CAC that I had never seen there before, quite strongly worded at that. Understanding that many here are CAC member dealers, submitters and generally supporters, I wondered what the membership would think of the statement.
--- We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there.
Thanks in advance.
Al H.
5
Comments
I think it’s an opinion
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
1000!
Who was this dealer? PM me if you don't want to say here. Thanks.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
that's all you've got, you think it's an opinion?? given the strong wording of the "opinion" the "opinion of the opinion" is pretty tame.
Of course they are entitled to have an opinion (right or wrong-
)...However, the way I see it is that unless they know the complete history of "this coin" how can they honestly claim that it has not been there (to CAC)?
Opinion notwithstanding, claiming that the coin has never been to CAC seems like a false claim, since there is no way to verify that.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
They may have submitted it for slabbing.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Perhaps, although there is still the chance that the coin was previously submitted to CAC and cracked out of the slab before it made it to the quoted dealer. An unlikely edge case, yes, but not impossible.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I definitely agree that it's "quite strongly worded."
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
That sounds like Larry Shepherd and SIMCO. I believe there was a thread on Larry and CAC a while back. Larry doesn't support CAC and specializes in toned coins which may be harder to get CAC certified.
UPDATE: This SIMCO page has the disclaimer:
http://www.simcocoins.com/inventory-items/amazing-rare-copper-morgan-dollar-pattern-r-7-finest-known-far/
The dealer is entitled to his opinion, but I don’t understand the biased standards part. And all grading standards are arbitrary.
Hmmmm, in my book if it's 1 man's opinion it is biased!
deleted
I don’t understand the biased standards part.
it is probably directed to the fact that one opinion decides the sticker.
There are of plenty of dealers who disagree with TPG slabbing of any kind. That’s their prerogative I suppose. Especially true in the EAC group.
I will note that I’ve seen the statement referenced by the OP and I’ve also purchased coins from that same dealer. He doesn’t scrape the stickers off the coins in his inventory that already have one, so that says something.
Aren’t PCGS standards based on one man’s opinion or interpretation of prevailing market standards at the time of its inception? Ditto for NGC. He doesn’t seem to refuse to submit to either of those. CAC has the multigrader + finalizer approach too. Or is this really about CAC rejecting blue copper? CAC is not alone in this.
He’s benefitting from CAC indirectly with his statement and almost certainly knows it. If the market will pay X for a coin with a sticker and Y for one that is presumed to have failed to get one then a coin that hasn’t been attempted has a better chance to sell for more than Y.
If you made it from a raw coin, you can state that in its present grading environment it has never been to CAC.
I think it's more that the dealer's opinion doesn't match CAC's opinion than number of opinions.
As mentioned CAC has more than 1 grader / opinion. Also, the dealer markets themselves as having "Higher than CAC Standards" and indicates only 1 person on their staff.
I’m not sure about this. If I saw a disclaimer like that I would assume the coin wasn’t submitted because the dealer knew it would fail.
Apparently, The Flat Earth Society is still alive and well!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Sour grapes from a dealer who did not get desired results when submitting coins to CAC in the past perhaps?
I view it as “I don’t play the sticker game but I’m letting you all know I don’t so I can still get some residual benefit from those who want to play the game”.
I think you may be correct. Mr. Shepherd clearly states on his website that SIMCO does not send coins to CAC. But he does offer coins that are stickered. I think. If I'm right, I really don't see any conflict with that.
Interesting topic.
Sounds like sour grapes to me, possibly being that the seller had their feelings hurt due to multiple rejections, non-beaned coins, returned to them?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
"Harmful to the health of the market" - didn't we hear that from some when the TPGs emerged?
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
At the very least, it sounds like someone who didn’t do well with CAC submissions in the past.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
We did.
It's market driven and that's why you should want CAC approved coins. Whether you like it or not, they go for more money. I personally avoid purchasing non-CAC coins unless 1) I really trust the dealer or 2) I've seen the coin first-hand and really like it I just don't want to have coins in my collection that won't be as marketable. Let's face it, when the time comes to liquidate my collection, dealers and collectors will want those CAC approved coins.
You make a very good point. The statement reads, "We do not send coins to CAC, etc, etc." So. ...the question that begs for an answer is; Did you EVER send coins to CAC? And if so, why did you stop?
" given the strong wording of the "opinion" the "opinion of the opinion" is pretty tame."
An opinion of an opinion of an opinion?
I went to the dealer's site and checked out the inventory, which is very heavily populated with spectacularly toned coins (most with TrueViews). I picked a few of them and checked them on the CAC site, none of those I checked (9 or 10) were shown by CAC as stickered. I picked one item with lesser toning and checked it, it came up as stickered, but with the notation "This cert# is no longer active at PCGS and is not included in the current CAC Pop report". Nowhere in that coin's listing detail did it mention that the coin had previously been CAC'd.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Reads like several posters on this forum who vigorously object to CAC. Ho hum.
I read similar sentiments from dealers when PCGS and NGC first started in the 80's... In my opinion John and his crew do a great job. This statement is out of touch in my opinion.
Dealer was upfront with his/her beliefs. OK by me.
Are his coins slabbed or does he not like the grading services also?
Everything the dealer says might or might not be true but the sales price of his coins will reflect the grading service opinion without an independent 2nd opinion (CAC).
You could hear many dealers saying more or less the same thing about sending coins to TPGs in the 90s. At the end of the day, it's up to the buyer to infer what they want from that kind of a statement. It sounds like someone's tired of being asked if a coin went to CAC or not.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Are grade inflation and faux plastic rarities/registry game healthy for the long term growth and stability of our hobby?
I would guess that the stance arises from interactions with increasing numbers of potential customers over time who show a strong preference for beaned coins, including a fair percentage who have no interest at all in those without stickers. There is no "right" or "wrong" to it of course. The market speaks with its pocketbook, notwithstanding any particular dealer's perspective.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Which has what to do with the subject at hand, CAC doesn't have a registry nor do they promote grade inflation. As to the OP quote much ado about nothing, opinions are a dime a dozen so like this one or not your choice.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
My sense is that while IN GENERAL the coin market has been soft and declining over the past five years or so (perhaps excluding certain rarities), I believe we now clearly have a two tier market - one part, coins without CAC’s, seem to have dropped a lot more over this period than the second part, coins with CAC’s. Those have either dropped less in general, or have much better held their value, or have even had slight increases in market value.
So yes, that dealers inventory of most coins not having CAC’s are probably selling for considerably less now than those coins sold for several years prior. I believe that over time, as CAC acceptance continues to grow, coins without CAC’s will continue to have an erosion in market value.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I am of the same opinion and I have never sent a coin to CAC.
He was making an analogy. I was pointing out that I don’t think his analogy (if accurate) helped the point I think he intended to make. With that said sticker inflation exists too. Even some CAC proponents like TDN have acknowledged as much.
No, but CAC has by no means put an end to that. Getting a full grade bump increases the value of a coin more than a sticker does 99.9% of the time.
The seller is entitled to feel however he wants about CAC and if he doesn’t want to submit to CAC that’s his prerogative. As a buyer I’ll take this into consideration and if I’m interested in anything he has I’m much less likely to buy the coin or pay strong money. When I buy coins from my favorite dealers if the coin is not stickered I know JA didn’t like it and I can price it accordingly.
To each his own. But he is swimming upstream against a fairly large percentage of potential customers. JMHO
CAC is largely a valuable service. In my opinion at least 95% of the stickered coins are very solid for the grade I have been salty many times over the years where I have sent coins to be stickered, receive no stickers, then later see them in an upgraded slab with a sticker.