A CAC disclaimer that surprised me.

keets · July 5, 2020 7:36AM

I was viewing some coins at a well known dealer's website this morning and I saw an opinion of CAC that I had never seen there before, quite strongly worded at that. Understanding that many here are CAC member dealers, submitters and generally supporters, I wondered what the membership would think of the statement.
--- We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there.

Thanks in advance.

Al H.

bidask · July 5, 2020 7:37AM

I think it’s an opinion

CoinJunkie · July 5, 2020 7:39AM

1000!

PerryHall · July 5, 2020 7:40AM

Who was this dealer? PM me if you don't want to say here. Thanks.

keets · July 5, 2020 7:40AM

that's all you've got, you think it's an opinion?? given the strong wording of the "opinion" the "opinion of the opinion" is pretty tame.

jedm · July 5, 2020 7:40AM

Of course they are entitled to have an opinion (right or wrong- )...However, the way I see it is that unless they know the complete history of "this coin" how can they honestly claim that it has not been there (to CAC)?

P0CKETCHANGE · July 5, 2020 7:41AM

Opinion notwithstanding, claiming that the coin has never been to CAC seems like a false claim, since there is no way to verify that.

PerryHall · July 5, 2020 7:42AM

@jedm said:
Of course they are entitled to have an opinion (right or wrong- )...However, the way I see it is that unless they know the complete history of "this coin" how can they honestly claim that it has not been there (to CAC)?

They may have submitted it for slabbing.

P0CKETCHANGE · July 5, 2020 7:44AM

@PerryHall said:

@jedm said:
Of course they are entitled to have an opinion (right or wrong- )...However, the way I see it is that unless they know the complete history of "this coin" how can they honestly claim that it has not been there (to CAC)?

They may have submitted it for slabbing.

Perhaps, although there is still the chance that the coin was previously submitted to CAC and cracked out of the slab before it made it to the quoted dealer. An unlikely edge case, yes, but not impossible.

PerryHall · July 5, 2020 7:45AM

@keets said:
I was viewing some coins at a well known dealer's website this morning and I saw an opinion of CAC that I had never seen there before, quite strongly worded at that. Understanding that many here are CAC member dealers, submitters and generally supporters, I wondered what the membership would think of the statement.
--- We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there.

Thanks in advance.

Al H.

I definitely agree that it's "quite strongly worded."

amwldcoin · July 5, 2020 7:45AM

Zoins · July 5, 2020 7:47AM

That sounds like Larry Shepherd and SIMCO. I believe there was a thread on Larry and CAC a while back. Larry doesn't support CAC and specializes in toned coins which may be harder to get CAC certified.

UPDATE: This SIMCO page has the disclaimer:

http://www.simcocoins.com/inventory-items/amazing-rare-copper-morgan-dollar-pattern-r-7-finest-known-far/

We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there.

cameonut2011 · July 5, 2020 7:47AM

@keets said:
I was viewing some coins at a well known dealer's website this morning and I saw an opinion of CAC that I had never seen there before, quite strongly worded at that. Understanding that many here are CAC member dealers, submitters and generally supporters, I wondered what the membership would think of the statement.
--- We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there.

Thanks in advance.

Al H.

The dealer is entitled to his opinion, but I don’t understand the biased standards part. And all grading standards are arbitrary.

amwldcoin · July 5, 2020 7:51AM

Hmmmm, in my book if it's 1 man's opinion it is biased!

@cameonut2011 said:

@keets said:
I was viewing some coins at a well known dealer's website this morning and I saw an opinion of CAC that I had never seen there before, quite strongly worded at that. Understanding that many here are CAC member dealers, submitters and generally supporters, I wondered what the membership would think of the statement.
--- We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there.

Thanks in advance.

Al H.

The dealer is entitled to his opinion, but I don’t understand the biased standards part. And all grading standards are arbitrary.

topstuf · July 5, 2020 7:52AM

deleted

keets · July 5, 2020 7:56AM

I don’t understand the biased standards part.

it is probably directed to the fact that one opinion decides the sticker.

BryceM · July 5, 2020 7:57AM

There are of plenty of dealers who disagree with TPG slabbing of any kind. That’s their prerogative I suppose. Especially true in the EAC group.

I will note that I’ve seen the statement referenced by the OP and I’ve also purchased coins from that same dealer. He doesn’t scrape the stickers off the coins in his inventory that already have one, so that says something.

cameonut2011 · July 5, 2020 8:00AM

@amwldcoin said:
Hmmmm, in my book if it's 1 man's opinion it is biased!

@cameonut2011 said:

@keets said:
I was viewing some coins at a well known dealer's website this morning and I saw an opinion of CAC that I had never seen there before, quite strongly worded at that. Understanding that many here are CAC member dealers, submitters and generally supporters, I wondered what the membership would think of the statement.
--- We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there.

Thanks in advance.

Al H.

The dealer is entitled to his opinion, but I don’t understand the biased standards part. And all grading standards are arbitrary.

Aren’t PCGS standards based on one man’s opinion or interpretation of prevailing market standards at the time of its inception? Ditto for NGC. He doesn’t seem to refuse to submit to either of those. CAC has the multigrader + finalizer approach too. Or is this really about CAC rejecting blue copper? CAC is not alone in this.

PhilLynott · July 5, 2020 8:02AM

He’s benefitting from CAC indirectly with his statement and almost certainly knows it. If the market will pay X for a coin with a sticker and Y for one that is presumed to have failed to get one then a coin that hasn’t been attempted has a better chance to sell for more than Y.

cameonut2011 · July 5, 2020 8:02AM

@P0CKETCHANGE said:
Opinion notwithstanding, claiming that the coin has never been to CAC seems like a false claim, since there is no way to verify that.

If you made it from a raw coin, you can state that in its present grading environment it has never been to CAC.

Zoins · July 5, 2020 8:06AM

@keets said:
I don’t understand the biased standards part.

it is probably directed to the fact that one opinion decides the sticker.

I think it's more that the dealer's opinion doesn't match CAC's opinion than number of opinions.

As mentioned CAC has more than 1 grader / opinion. Also, the dealer markets themselves as having "Higher than CAC Standards" and indicates only 1 person on their staff.

cameonut2011 · July 5, 2020 8:07AM

@PhilLynott said:
He’s benefitting from CAC indirectly with his statement and almost certainly knows it. If the market will pay X for a coin with a sticker and Y for one that is presumed to have failed to get one then a coin that hasn’t been attempted has a better chance to sell for more than Y.

I’m not sure about this. If I saw a disclaimer like that I would assume the coin wasn’t submitted because the dealer knew it would fail.

keets · July 5, 2020 8:12AM

winesteven · July 5, 2020 8:13AM

I have absolutely no problem with that dealer choosing to not send coins to CAC.
I have absolutely no problem with that dealer having an opinion to choose to not support CAC’s standards.
That dealer saying in his/her opinion that CAC standards are biased is an opinion with which I disagree and I suspect many knowledgeable and respected numismatists disagree. Are CAC standards “biased” against “C” coins? Yes! Are CAC standards “biased” against coins whose surfaces have been “messed with” too much? Yes, but I don’t think those are biases at all, but standards which many of us cherish! Does CAC occasionally make errors, just like PCGS and NGC occasionally make errors? Absolutely, as all graders involved are human.
“Out of touch with the collector market”? Now that dealer has lost a lot of credibility with that statement. Yes, many collectors won’t pay higher prices for coins with CAC’s , but the FACT is that coins with CAC’s have not only been accepted in the current collector market, but like it or not, ARE indeed a very significant part of the current collector market! Take your head out of the sand on this one!
This dealer can indeed express an opinion that CAC is very harmful to the market, but I believe most knowledgeable and respected numismatists disagree. When TPG’s started in 1986, MANY people, MANY dealers said the very same thing - it will be harmful to the market. In my opinion, that comment by this dealer really says that CAC has been harmful to HIS/HER business model (not the health of the market) because of his reluctance to open his eyes to the realities of today’s market. There’s a dealer that I used to buy coins from who has this same attitude, whose inventory includes very few coins with CAC’s. Just as I won’t buy his coins, I’m sure many others also choose to no longer look at his inventory. So his customer base is now reduced.

Apparently, The Flat Earth Society is still alive and well!

matt_dac · July 5, 2020 8:15AM

Sour grapes from a dealer who did not get desired results when submitting coins to CAC in the past perhaps?

PhilLynott · July 5, 2020 8:16AM

@cameonut2011 said:

@PhilLynott said:
He’s benefitting from CAC indirectly with his statement and almost certainly knows it. If the market will pay X for a coin with a sticker and Y for one that is presumed to have failed to get one then a coin that hasn’t been attempted has a better chance to sell for more than Y.

I’m not sure about this. If I saw a disclaimer like that I would assume the coin wasn’t submitted because the dealer knew it would fail.

I view it as “I don’t play the sticker game but I’m letting you all know I don’t so I can still get some residual benefit from those who want to play the game”.

Hydrant · July 5, 2020 8:16AM

@Zoins said:
That sounds like Larry Shepherd and SIMCO. I believe there was a thread on Larry and CAC a while back. Larry doesn't support CAC and specializes in toned coins which may be harder to get CAC certified.

I think you may be correct. Mr. Shepherd clearly states on his website that SIMCO does not send coins to CAC. But he does offer coins that are stickered. I think. If I'm right, I really don't see any conflict with that.

Hydrant · July 5, 2020 8:21AM

Interesting topic.

oih82w8 · July 5, 2020 8:23AM

Sounds like sour grapes to me, possibly being that the seller had their feelings hurt due to multiple rejections, non-beaned coins, returned to them?

ms71 · July 5, 2020 8:29AM

"Harmful to the health of the market" - didn't we hear that from some when the TPGs emerged?

MFeld · July 5, 2020 8:30AM

At the very least, it sounds like someone who didn’t do well with CAC submissions in the past.

Smudge · July 5, 2020 8:32AM

@ms71 said:
"Harmful to the health of the market" - didn't we hear that from some when the TPGs emerged?

We did.

chesterb · July 5, 2020 8:36AM

It's market driven and that's why you should want CAC approved coins. Whether you like it or not, they go for more money. I personally avoid purchasing non-CAC coins unless 1) I really trust the dealer or 2) I've seen the coin first-hand and really like it I just don't want to have coins in my collection that won't be as marketable. Let's face it, when the time comes to liquidate my collection, dealers and collectors will want those CAC approved coins.

Hydrant · July 5, 2020 8:46AM

@MFeld said:
At the very least, it sounds like someone who didn’t do well with CAC submissions in the past.

You make a very good point. The statement reads, "We do not send coins to CAC, etc, etc." So. ...the question that begs for an answer is; Did you EVER send coins to CAC? And if so, why did you stop?

MasonG · July 5, 2020 8:49AM

" given the strong wording of the "opinion" the "opinion of the opinion" is pretty tame."

An opinion of an opinion of an opinion?

ms71 · July 5, 2020 8:51AM

I went to the dealer's site and checked out the inventory, which is very heavily populated with spectacularly toned coins (most with TrueViews). I picked a few of them and checked them on the CAC site, none of those I checked (9 or 10) were shown by CAC as stickered. I picked one item with lesser toning and checked it, it came up as stickered, but with the notation "This cert# is no longer active at PCGS and is not included in the current CAC Pop report". Nowhere in that coin's listing detail did it mention that the coin had previously been CAC'd.

Catbert · July 5, 2020 8:53AM

Reads like several posters on this forum who vigorously object to CAC. Ho hum.

Jimnight · July 5, 2020 8:54AM

Coin Finder · July 5, 2020 9:18AM

I read similar sentiments from dealers when PCGS and NGC first started in the 80's... In my opinion John and his crew do a great job. This statement is out of touch in my opinion.

jkrk · July 5, 2020 9:28AM

Dealer was upfront with his/her beliefs. OK by me.

Are his coins slabbed or does he not like the grading services also?

Everything the dealer says might or might not be true but the sales price of his coins will reflect the grading service opinion without an independent 2nd opinion (CAC).

messydesk · July 5, 2020 9:29AM

@keets said:
I was viewing some coins at a well known dealer's website this morning and I saw an opinion of CAC that I had never seen there before, quite strongly worded at that. Understanding that many here are CAC member dealers, submitters and generally supporters, I wondered what the membership would think of the statement.
--- We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there.

Thanks in advance.

Al H.

You could hear many dealers saying more or less the same thing about sending coins to TPGs in the 90s. At the end of the day, it's up to the buyer to infer what they want from that kind of a statement. It sounds like someone's tired of being asked if a coin went to CAC or not.

cameonut2011 · July 5, 2020 9:30AM

@ms71 said:
"Harmful to the health of the market" - didn't we hear that from some when the TPGs emerged?

Are grade inflation and faux plastic rarities/registry game healthy for the long term growth and stability of our hobby?

ms71 · July 5, 2020 9:31AM

I would guess that the stance arises from interactions with increasing numbers of potential customers over time who show a strong preference for beaned coins, including a fair percentage who have no interest at all in those without stickers. There is no "right" or "wrong" to it of course. The market speaks with its pocketbook, notwithstanding any particular dealer's perspective.

coinbuf · July 5, 2020 9:35AM

@cameonut2011 said:

@ms71 said:
"Harmful to the health of the market" - didn't we hear that from some when the TPGs emerged?

Are grade inflation and faux plastic rarities/registry game healthy for the long term growth and stability of our hobby?

Which has what to do with the subject at hand, CAC doesn't have a registry nor do they promote grade inflation. As to the OP quote much ado about nothing, opinions are a dime a dozen so like this one or not your choice.

winesteven · July 5, 2020 9:40AM

@jkrk said:
Everything the dealer says might or might not be true but the sales price of his coins will reflect the grading service opinion without an independent 2nd opinion (CAC).

My sense is that while IN GENERAL the coin market has been soft and declining over the past five years or so (perhaps excluding certain rarities), I believe we now clearly have a two tier market - one part, coins without CAC’s, seem to have dropped a lot more over this period than the second part, coins with CAC’s. Those have either dropped less in general, or have much better held their value, or have even had slight increases in market value.

So yes, that dealers inventory of most coins not having CAC’s are probably selling for considerably less now than those coins sold for several years prior. I believe that over time, as CAC acceptance continues to grow, coins without CAC’s will continue to have an erosion in market value.

amwldcoin · July 5, 2020 9:43AM

I am of the same opinion and I have never sent a coin to CAC.

@Hydrant said:

@MFeld said:
At the very least, it sounds like someone who didn’t do well with CAC submissions in the past.

You make a very good point. The statement reads, "We do not send coins to CAC, etc, etc." So. ...the question that begs for an answer is; Did you EVER send coins to CAC? And if so, why did you stop?

cameonut2011 · July 5, 2020 9:44AM

@coinbuf said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@ms71 said:
"Harmful to the health of the market" - didn't we hear that from some when the TPGs emerged?

Are grade inflation and faux plastic rarities/registry game healthy for the long term growth and stability of our hobby?

Which has what to do with the subject at hand, CAC doesn't have a registry nor do they promote grade inflation. As to the OP quote much ado about nothing, opinions are a dime a dozen so like this one or not your choice.

He was making an analogy. I was pointing out that I don’t think his analogy (if accurate) helped the point I think he intended to make. With that said sticker inflation exists too. Even some CAC proponents like TDN have acknowledged as much.

CoinJunkie · July 5, 2020 9:53AM

@cameonut2011 said:

@ms71 said:
"Harmful to the health of the market" - didn't we hear that from some when the TPGs emerged?

Are grade inflation and faux plastic rarities/registry game healthy for the long term growth and stability of our hobby?

No, but CAC has by no means put an end to that. Getting a full grade bump increases the value of a coin more than a sticker does 99.9% of the time.

skier07 · July 5, 2020 9:56AM

The seller is entitled to feel however he wants about CAC and if he doesn’t want to submit to CAC that’s his prerogative. As a buyer I’ll take this into consideration and if I’m interested in anything he has I’m much less likely to buy the coin or pay strong money. When I buy coins from my favorite dealers if the coin is not stickered I know JA didn’t like it and I can price it accordingly.

No Headlights · July 5, 2020 9:57AM

To each his own. But he is swimming upstream against a fairly large percentage of potential customers. JMHO

zas107 · July 5, 2020 9:58AM

CAC is largely a valuable service. In my opinion at least 95% of the stickered coins are very solid for the grade I have been salty many times over the years where I have sent coins to be stickered, receive no stickers, then later see them in an upgraded slab with a sticker.

A CAC disclaimer that surprised me.

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