I think the point he is trying to make, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly, is that a very small percentage of the entire Hobby distorts the overall Hobby.
I think another reason for CAC that isn't often discussed is the rise of type collecting. Given the differences in grading between series, type collectors don't have enough coins to become experts in any one series.
and this point highlights the laziness of Americans and Hobbyists --- why take the time to learn when I can just pay someone else to do it for me?? when I started to collect by "Type" I took it upon myself to actually study the type of coin I was going to buy with the overriding conclusion that it was going to make me a better collector. I posted as much here in different threads over the years.
So, you're saying that I shouldn't buy a painting until I'm an expert on forgeries?
There is a reason people pay for opinions that is beyond simple laziness.
Should you not buy a car unless you're an expert mechanic?
Here we have quotes from the OP concerning fellow hobbyists:
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
but to your point, why would something against CAC get you butt-hurt??
and this point highlights the laziness of Americans and Hobbyists --- why take the time to learn when I can just pay someone else to do it for me??
I doubt you would buy something you didn't know anything about, but, sadly, many in the Hobby don't think like that. they choose not to learn.
what is probably more in need is personal education and patience, figure out what you want to collect, learn about it and then spend 25 years getting where you want to be.
Education is the key to a successful collection.
The last quote is the only true statement in the list of insults.
The grand irony is, you harp on education, yet remain adamantly, aggressively, and proudly ignorant of CAC.
I believe @keets is just stirring the pot to keep this thread going for as long as possible, with as many views as possible. My guess is it's already a record in views and posts for a CAC thread that eventually the moderators tend to close.
He's just sitting back and chuckling!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
The grand irony is, you harp on education, yet remain adamantly, aggressively, and proudly ignorant of CAC??
I do??
since you seem so adept at "quoting" me, please list statements I have made to support your assumption. what I do feel sort of proud about is that I have taken the time to gain enough confidence in my own ability so I don't have to have an over-reliance on someone else, be that PCGS, NGS, Joe Fabeets at the Coin Shop, some swami down the street or even CAC.
@keets said: I think another reason for CAC that isn't often discussed is the rise of type collecting. Given the differences in grading between series, type collectors don't have enough coins to become experts in any one series.
and this point highlights the laziness of Americans and Hobbyists --- why take the time to learn when I can just pay someone else to do it for me?? when I started to collect by "Type" I took it upon myself to actually study the type of coin I was going to buy with the overriding conclusion that it was going to make me a better collector. I posted as much here in different threads over the years.
That's pretty insulting.
I have a day job and don't work in the coin business like some. If you knew how much I worked in my day job, I doubt you'd call it laziness.
I'm a type collector and don't necessarily think this post was insulting. I have learned plenty through the years and actually think CAC does a lousy job on early type. I want the sticker because it increases marketability BUT I have also purchased coins without a sticker when I thought they missed it. That isn't common but it has happened.
@keets said: The grand irony is, you harp on education, yet remain adamantly, aggressively, and proudly ignorant of CAC??
I do??
since you seem so adept at "quoting" me, please list statements I have made to support your assumption. what I do feel sort of proud about is that I have taken the time to gain enough confidence in my own ability so I don't have to have an over-reliance on someone else, be that PCGS, NGS, Joe Fabeets at the Coin Shop, some swami down the street or even CAC.
I think CAC value increases get a lot of credit for coins that would do just as well with or without a sticker. I know with Barber Halves...a nice original midgrade coin with hard gunmetal surfaces or the like will usually sell for double what a light gray (old dip ?) coin the same grade will sell for...CAC sticker or not.
@keets said:
I believe that CAC has affected coin prices but I don't accept that it's an easily measured difference. examples can be pointed out but the hidden truth in that should be obvious --- it can't be known how that same coin at that same time would have sold without the CAC sticker. another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
I would ask why is it seen as good for the Hobby if some areas benefit at the expense of other areas??
@amwldcoin said:
I think CAC value increases get a lot of credit for coins that would do just as well with or without a sticker. I know with Barber Halves...a nice original midgrade coin with hard gunmetal surfaces or the like will usually sell for double what a light gray (old dip ?) coin the same grade will sell for...CAC sticker or not.
Until you see the same coins in the same plastic trade publicly with and without a sticker. I recently posted a thread about a Indian Head quarter eagle that fetched 2.5x its price realized in its unstickered state from a major auction the year before. The gold market (and coin market deteriorated) in that period. It is only one example and doesn’t prove anything by itself, but I have seen the same phenomenon in varying degrees multiple times.
There is a cohort of collectors with deep pockets willing to throw fistfuls of money to acquire top pop or near top pop CACed coins. Many are building CAC only sets and when there is a low number available, many of these individuals will aggressively engage in bidding wars. The CAC effect is very real and in a fair number of cases cannot be explained by the quality of the coin itself.
@keets said:
I believe that CAC has affected coin prices but I don't accept that it's an easily measured difference. examples can be pointed out but the hidden truth in that should be obvious --- it can't be known how that same coin at that same time would have sold without the CAC sticker. another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
I would ask why is it seen as good for the Hobby if some areas benefit at the expense of other areas??
@amwldcoin said:
I think CAC value increases get a lot of credit for coins that would do just as well with or without a sticker. I know with Barber Halves...a nice original midgrade coin with hard gunmetal surfaces or the like will usually sell for double what a light gray (old dip ?) coin the same grade will sell for...CAC sticker or not.
Until you see the same coins in the same plastic trade publicly with and without a sticker. I recently posted a thread about a Indian Head quarter eagle that fetched 2.5x its price realized in its unstickered state from a major auction the year before. The gold market (and coin market deteriorated) in that period. It is only one example and doesn’t prove anything by itself, but I have seen the same phenomenon in varying degrees multiple times.
There is a cohort of collectors with deep pockets willing to throw fistfuls of money to acquire top pop or near top pop CACed coins. Many are building CAC only sets and when there is a low number available, many of these individuals will aggressively engage in bidding wars. The CAC effect is very real and in a fair number of cases cannot be explained by the quality of the coin itself.
It's also worth pointing out that CAC does not automatically mean "extra pretty". If you look in the widget realm, which is most of the breadth of the market, a CAC MS65 Morgan isn't necessarily extra pretty relative to a non-CAC Morgan. It's just A/B not C for the grade. Yet, it will command the CAC premium when sold.
the rub of all this is simple to see --- looking at examples like the one cameonut2011 provided, we will know better and more of the "power of CAC" when those kind of coins come up for sale again.
@keets said:
I believe that CAC has affected coin prices but I don't accept that it's an easily measured difference. examples can be pointed out but the hidden truth in that should be obvious --- it can't be known how that same coin at that same time would have sold without the CAC sticker. another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
I would ask why is it seen as good for the Hobby if some areas benefit at the expense of other areas??
@amwldcoin said:
I think CAC value increases get a lot of credit for coins that would do just as well with or without a sticker. I know with Barber Halves...a nice original midgrade coin with hard gunmetal surfaces or the like will usually sell for double what a light gray (old dip ?) coin the same grade will sell for...CAC sticker or not.
Until you see the same coins in the same plastic trade publicly with and without a sticker. I recently posted a thread about a Indian Head quarter eagle that fetched 2.5x its price realized in its unstickered state from a major auction the year before. The gold market (and coin market deteriorated) in that period. It is only one example and doesn’t prove anything by itself, but I have seen the same phenomenon in varying degrees multiple times.
There is a cohort of collectors with deep pockets willing to throw fistfuls of money to acquire top pop or near top pop CACed coins. Many are building CAC only sets and when there is a low number available, many of these individuals will aggressively engage in bidding wars. The CAC effect is very real and in a fair number of cases cannot be explained by the quality of the coin itself.
@keets said:
I believe that CAC has affected coin prices but I don't accept that it's an easily measured difference. examples can be pointed out but the hidden truth in that should be obvious --- it can't be known how that same coin at that same time would have sold without the CAC sticker. another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
I would ask why is it seen as good for the Hobby if some areas benefit at the expense of other areas??
@amwldcoin said:
I think CAC value increases get a lot of credit for coins that would do just as well with or without a sticker. I know with Barber Halves...a nice original midgrade coin with hard gunmetal surfaces or the like will usually sell for double what a light gray (old dip ?) coin the same grade will sell for...CAC sticker or not.
Until you see the same coins in the same plastic trade publicly with and without a sticker. I recently posted a thread about a Indian Head quarter eagle that fetched 2.5x its price realized in its unstickered state from a major auction the year before. The gold market (and coin market deteriorated) in that period. It is only one example and doesn’t prove anything by itself, but I have seen the same phenomenon in varying degrees multiple times.
There is a cohort of collectors with deep pockets willing to throw fistfuls of money to acquire top pop or near top pop CACed coins. Many are building CAC only sets and when there is a low number available, many of these individuals will aggressively engage in bidding wars. The CAC effect is very real and in a fair number of cases cannot be explained by the quality of the coin itself.
While I tend to agree with your post, I've also seen numerous instances in which posters incorrectly attributed high prices realized to the effects of CAC. This has occurred where, for example, sharp dealers have paid what look to be super high prices for coins that were stickered. But those prices were actually based on hopes or expectations for upgrades, not because of the CAC stickers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Every time there is a CAC thread and people lament the change in the hobby and rail against CAC and how they don’t need it, I often think of the quote which I will paraphrase: When faced with the need to change, the first thing that most people do is try and convince themselves that they do not need to change.
@keets said:
I believe that CAC has affected coin prices but I don't accept that it's an easily measured difference. examples can be pointed out but the hidden truth in that should be obvious --- it can't be known how that same coin at that same time would have sold without the CAC sticker. another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
I would ask why is it seen as good for the Hobby if some areas benefit at the expense of other areas??
@amwldcoin said:
I think CAC value increases get a lot of credit for coins that would do just as well with or without a sticker. I know with Barber Halves...a nice original midgrade coin with hard gunmetal surfaces or the like will usually sell for double what a light gray (old dip ?) coin the same grade will sell for...CAC sticker or not.
Until you see the same coins in the same plastic trade publicly with and without a sticker. I recently posted a thread about a Indian Head quarter eagle that fetched 2.5x its price realized in its unstickered state from a major auction the year before. The gold market (and coin market deteriorated) in that period. It is only one example and doesn’t prove anything by itself, but I have seen the same phenomenon in varying degrees multiple times.
There is a cohort of collectors with deep pockets willing to throw fistfuls of money to acquire top pop or near top pop CACed coins. Many are building CAC only sets and when there is a low number available, many of these individuals will aggressively engage in bidding wars. The CAC effect is very real and in a fair number of cases cannot be explained by the quality of the coin itself.
How is this any different from registry sets in general? Replace "cac" in your post with "tpg" and it is the same. Yes----people will pay more for top pop coins whether it be pcgs or cac.
@keets said:
corrected, but that's all you took away from that post??
I had about five minutes to scan the forum early this morning, and don't really want to participate in this thread anymore. Your post triggered my comment, but it's a common diction error on the forum (among many others) and I thought I'd point it out as a general announcement for the dwindling few who might care about proper English usage. FWIW, your post still references "the CAC affect", but it's your birthday, so let's just roll with it. Cheers.
Effect: Verb cause (something) to happen; bring about.
Affect: Verb have an effect on; make a difference to.
So, CAC has affected coin prices by effecting an increase in the price of CAC coins.
You're welcome
I didn't have time to elaborate the cases as I had a very busy morning ahead of me. I'm not sure what I'm welcome for. Perhaps you need to review the meaning of the word "usually".
I work in a B&M, participate here, go to coin clubs, coin shows, visit friends and look at their new purchases... I see a lot coins, more than the average Joe and feel that my experience is sufficient to find quality coins. I can get by just fine without CAC on any of my purchases, yet I highly value what they do. Why not buy a coin that another expert has seen? I certainly don't look at non CAC coins as 2nd class, but when the sticker is there I find it a nice little bonus.
@asheland said:
I work in a B&M, participate here, go to coin clubs, coin shows, visit friends and look at their new purchases... I see a lot coins, more than the average Joe and feel that my experience is sufficient to find quality coins. I can get by just fine without CAC on any of my purchases, yet I highly value what they do. Why not buy a coin that another expert has seen? I certainly don't look at non CAC coins as 2nd class, but when the sticker is there I find it a nice little bonus.
Just my opinion...
Exactly. It's an opinion. Do with it whatever you will. If it doesn't matter, ignore it. Peel it off. If you value it, bid accordingly.
@keets said:
corrected, but that's all you took away from that post??
I had about five minutes to scan the forum early this morning, and don't really want to participate in this thread anymore. Your post triggered my comment, but it's a common diction error on the forum (among many others) and I thought I'd point it out as a general announcement for the dwindling few who might care about proper English usage. FWIW, your post still references "the CAC affect", but it's your birthday, so let's just roll with it. Cheers.
Are you sure he doesn't mean "CAC affect"?
Affect:
Noun: emotion or desire, especially as influencing behavior or action.
Given Keets' views on CAC, I think "CAC affect" is probably exactly what he meant.
@topstuf said:
If nobody wanted another opinion, we'd never see another "Guess the grade."
Well, to be fair, much of the time people don't really want another opinion on "Guess the grade". They want you to validate their personal feeling about how exceptional their new purchase is.
I bet if we all start guessing 2 grades lower than the slab we'll see a lot fewer "Guess the grade" threads.
@keets said:
corrected, but that's all you took away from that post??
I had about five minutes to scan the forum early this morning, and don't really want to participate in this thread anymore. Your post triggered my comment, but it's a common diction error on the forum (among many others) and I thought I'd point it out as a general announcement for the dwindling few who might care about proper English usage. FWIW, your post still references "the CAC affect", but it's your birthday, so let's just roll with it. Cheers.
Are you sure he doesn't mean "CAC affect"?
Affect:
Noun: emotion or desire, especially as influencing behavior or action.
Given Keets' views on CAC, I think "CAC affect" is probably exactly what he meant.
Good lord, man, are you simply trolling? Here's the exact quote:
another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
Do you still stand by your assertion?
(Sorry to belabor this, folks! If a certain poster would ever just admit that he's wrong, a lot of electrons could be put to more productive use.)
@topstuf said:
If nobody wanted another opinion, we'd never see another "Guess the grade."
Well, to be fair, much of the time people don't really want another opinion on "Guess the grade". They want you to validate their personal feeling about how exceptional their new purchase is.
I bet if we all start guessing 2 grades lower than the slab we'll see a lot fewer "Guess the grade" threads.
Wouldn’t stop me. when I post them it’s more for fun and sometimes to see how well my picture corresponds to the coin. I just find it interesting to see what people think it grades.
I respond to those kinds of posts mostly to test myself on my grading (good or bad) on a photo since so much purchasing these days is, by necessity, from a photo.
@keets said:
corrected, but that's all you took away from that post??
I had about five minutes to scan the forum early this morning, and don't really want to participate in this thread anymore. Your post triggered my comment, but it's a common diction error on the forum (among many others) and I thought I'd point it out as a general announcement for the dwindling few who might care about proper English usage. FWIW, your post still references "the CAC affect", but it's your birthday, so let's just roll with it. Cheers.
Are you sure he doesn't mean "CAC affect"?
Affect:
Noun: emotion or desire, especially as influencing behavior or action.
Given Keets' views on CAC, I think "CAC affect" is probably exactly what he meant.
Good lord, man, are you simply trolling? Here's the exact quote:
another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
Do you still stand by your assertion?
(Sorry to belabor this, folks! If a certain poster would ever just admit that he's wrong, a lot of electrons could be put to more productive use.)
Wrong about what? You were trolling Keets not me.
This is just another example of the Coinjunkie affect.
@keets said:
corrected, but that's all you took away from that post??
I had about five minutes to scan the forum early this morning, and don't really want to participate in this thread anymore. Your post triggered my comment, but it's a common diction error on the forum (among many others) and I thought I'd point it out as a general announcement for the dwindling few who might care about proper English usage. FWIW, your post still references "the CAC affect", but it's your birthday, so let's just roll with it. Cheers.
Are you sure he doesn't mean "CAC affect"?
Affect:
Noun: emotion or desire, especially as influencing behavior or action.
Given Keets' views on CAC, I think "CAC affect" is probably exactly what he meant.
Good lord, man, are you simply trolling? Here's the exact quote:
another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
Do you still stand by your assertion?
(Sorry to belabor this, folks! If a certain poster would ever just admit that he's wrong, a lot of electrons could be put to more productive use.)
Wrong about what? You were trolling Keets not me.
This is just another example of the Coinjunkie affect.
You’re each affected by the other and the effect is not beneficial.😄
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@keets said:
corrected, but that's all you took away from that post??
I had about five minutes to scan the forum early this morning, and don't really want to participate in this thread anymore. Your post triggered my comment, but it's a common diction error on the forum (among many others) and I thought I'd point it out as a general announcement for the dwindling few who might care about proper English usage. FWIW, your post still references "the CAC affect", but it's your birthday, so let's just roll with it. Cheers.
Are you sure he doesn't mean "CAC affect"?
Affect:
Noun: emotion or desire, especially as influencing behavior or action.
Given Keets' views on CAC, I think "CAC affect" is probably exactly what he meant.
Good lord, man, are you simply trolling? Here's the exact quote:
another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
Do you still stand by your assertion?
(Sorry to belabor this, folks! If a certain poster would ever just admit that he's wrong, a lot of electrons could be put to more productive use.)
Wrong about what? You were trolling Keets not me.
This is just another example of the Coinjunkie affect.
You’re each affected by the other and the effect is not beneficial.😄
@keets said:
I believe that CAC has affected coin prices but I don't accept that it's an easily measured difference. examples can be pointed out but the hidden truth in that should be obvious --- it can't be known how that same coin at that same time would have sold without the CAC sticker. another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
I would ask why is it seen as good for the Hobby if some areas benefit at the expense of other areas??
@amwldcoin said:
I think CAC value increases get a lot of credit for coins that would do just as well with or without a sticker. I know with Barber Halves...a nice original midgrade coin with hard gunmetal surfaces or the like will usually sell for double what a light gray (old dip ?) coin the same grade will sell for...CAC sticker or not.
Until you see the same coins in the same plastic trade publicly with and without a sticker. I recently posted a thread about a Indian Head quarter eagle that fetched 2.5x its price realized in its unstickered state from a major auction the year before. The gold market (and coin market deteriorated) in that period. It is only one example and doesn’t prove anything by itself, but I have seen the same phenomenon in varying degrees multiple times.
There is a cohort of collectors with deep pockets willing to throw fistfuls of money to acquire top pop or near top pop CACed coins. Many are building CAC only sets and when there is a low number available, many of these individuals will aggressively engage in bidding wars. The CAC effect is very real and in a fair number of cases cannot be explained by the quality of the coin itself.
How is this any different from registry sets in general? Replace "cac" in your post with "tpg" and it is the same. Yes----people will pay more for top pop coins whether it be pcgs or
With each level of enhancement or refinement there are far fewer coins to meet demand leading to even more exaggerated results and artificial rarity. You can only slice the salami but so thinly. Then we have the creation of sticker rarities that may not even be the finest known (I.e. a 67C is theoretically a better coin than a 66B but the 66B CAC may be the CAC top pop), which I believe leads to quirky auction results. It also goes further down the chain grade wise than the classic registry phenomenon. I’d liken it to the registry phenomenon 2.0 or registry phenomenon +++.
@keets said:
I believe that CAC has affected coin prices but I don't accept that it's an easily measured difference. examples can be pointed out but the hidden truth in that should be obvious --- it can't be known how that same coin at that same time would have sold without the CAC sticker. another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
I would ask why is it seen as good for the Hobby if some areas benefit at the expense of other areas??
@amwldcoin said:
I think CAC value increases get a lot of credit for coins that would do just as well with or without a sticker. I know with Barber Halves...a nice original midgrade coin with hard gunmetal surfaces or the like will usually sell for double what a light gray (old dip ?) coin the same grade will sell for...CAC sticker or not.
Until you see the same coins in the same plastic trade publicly with and without a sticker. I recently posted a thread about a Indian Head quarter eagle that fetched 2.5x its price realized in its unstickered state from a major auction the year before. The gold market (and coin market deteriorated) in that period. It is only one example and doesn’t prove anything by itself, but I have seen the same phenomenon in varying degrees multiple times.
There is a cohort of collectors with deep pockets willing to throw fistfuls of money to acquire top pop or near top pop CACed coins. Many are building CAC only sets and when there is a low number available, many of these individuals will aggressively engage in bidding wars. The CAC effect is very real and in a fair number of cases cannot be explained by the quality of the coin itself.
How is this any different from registry sets in general? Replace "cac" in your post with "tpg" and it is the same. Yes----people will pay more for top pop coins whether it be pcgs or
With each level of enhancement or refinement there are far fewer coins to meet demand leading to even more exaggerated results and artificial rarity. You can only slice the salami but so thinly. Then we have the creation of sticker rarities that may not even be the finest known (I.e. a 67C is theoretically a better coin than a 66B but the 66B CAC may be the CAC top pop), which I believe leads to quirky auction results. It also goes further down the chain grade wise than the classic registry phenomenon. I’d liken it to the registry phenomenon 2.0 or registry phenomenon +++.
Again, your points are the same for tpg. A pcgs 67 may not be the finest known if there is an undergraded pcgs 66 (maybe in an old slab). Quriky auction results can happen when an overgraded tpg coin sells cheaply or an undergraded tpg coin sells for a record price. Human nature is that there will always people who will want what is perceived as the best and whether it is tpg, cac, this will create pricing that some will not understand ( some coins jump 10x ---if ms65 rather than ms64---does that make sense). My main point is this is not a cac specific phenomenon
I think another reason for CAC that isn't often discussed is the rise of type collecting. Given the differences in grading between series, type collectors don't have enough coins to become experts in any one series.
and this point highlights the laziness of Americans and Hobbyists --- why take the time to learn when I can just pay someone else to do it for me?? when I started to collect by "Type" I took it upon myself to actually study the type of coin I was going to buy with the overriding conclusion that it was going to make me a better collector. I posted as much here in different threads over the years.
To call anyone that does not have the level of expertise of someone who works full time at it and gets paid to be that expert as lazy is not really appropriate. There are clear reasons why TPG graders and CAC evaluators are better than us and heck yes I will rely on those better than me at this. It is not lazy to value and use their opinions on coins. You and I can study all we want, but if we don't see 100,000s of coins decade in and decade out, well, we still won't have the knowledge these folks have.
As an analogy, in the past at some shows after looking at a prospective purchase, spending time evaluating the coin, I sometimes then get the opinion of Bill Jones. Despite all of my knowledge, Bill always knows more about the coin than I do, which can then dictate whether I purchase it or not. This is because of his decades of full time dealing and getting the experience I don't have. Am I being lazy relying on Bill? Heck no.
also a CAC "dislaimer" of my own, although I have several slabs with CAC stickers, the sticker didn't influence the purchase. if it's there it's there. finally, I submitted a group of eight coins for the sticker and they all stickered...any other questions, ask away, baby!
If the coin speaks for itself, as you say, why did you submit a group of eight coins for the sticker?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
I found a gorgeous Civil war era seated dime recently in the shop. Scarce issue, in a PCGS slab, totally original, what one with some experience hopes to see when shopping at the local B&M.
I inspected the piece thoroughly with my 10x loupe. Yep, very nice piece. It was the kind of coin that experience has taught me.....then I decide to take a final "another look" before attempting to negotiate a sale with the dealer.
I looked at "LIBERTY" on the shield closely and lo and behold there is a scratch, not long and not deep, across the "L" completely obliterating it. I would be forever reminded of that post mint damage on the piece every time I got it out to admire it so I passed on purchasing it. Didn't say a word to the dealer about the scratch which was very well blended into the coin.
Many of the new breed of collectors, the slab fans who only concern themselves with numbers, would not ever see what I saw, that which was a deal breaker for me. I look for perfect for the grade no matter the asking price.
Couldn't help but think later that John Albanese saw what I saw, that's why no CAC sticker...
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Not everyone is a fan of CAC, is on board giving them their money, or has their particular preference. I admire his being candid. Perhaps he has a lot of big ticket coins and has been hit with questions if they have been to CAC.
The thread on cointalk / will it CAC contest gives good insights on how market players will vote on whether a particular coin will CAC. It has given me some good insights (on stuff they will sticker) and been very educational.
If somebody wants CAC coins and will pay the extra money for them it’s their hobby / money on the table. I have bought and sold CAC coins. A coins coins brought the highest markup. Many players on bourse on lookout for A coins they can CAC / sell. CAC coins can realize many multiples of bid.
Be advised coins can go bad in the holder due to reaction with the atmosphere plus heat, humidity, salt air......so realize their sticker represents a point in time. There is no substitute for knowing how evaluate (where in grade range) / grade coins.
I have had other dealers come to my table at shows “can you sell that one below bid.” I tell them I don’t sell below bid and of course realize he is trying rip that one to cover costs of CAC or crackout. In another instance at a show tire kicker wanted buy a $35 raw world coin for $21. It was a Gem BU brilliant blazer world silver (raw) coin from estate probably 65 or 66 I had $17 in. I told him (amused he would want rip me 40 pct on a coin under $50) “no it’s priced as marked.” After he left I took a better look at it put it away for the slab bus it came back MS66 plus (single digit pop). Don’t let them talk you down (huge discount). Usually they have some sleazy reason.
Many players on bourse on lookout for A coins they can CAC / sell.
this is the new "crack-out" game --- look for a coin that will sticker, green and you'll at least break even, Gold and you'll profit. it precludes any chance of cracking a coin, only to find a problem, or missing the upgrade and having to re-submit till success. it is cheaper with little downside and is successful because many dealers aren't really good graders.
If the coin speaks for itself, as you say, why did you submit a group of eight coins for the sticker?
to help at the point of sale.
also a CAC "dislaimer" of my own, although I have several slabs with CAC stickers, the sticker didn't influence the purchase. if it's there it's there. finally, I submitted a group of eight coins for the sticker and they all stickered...any other questions, ask away, baby
Lemme see if I got this right. The sticker didn't influence your purchase but you say the sticker helps at the point of sale. Sale to who? Someone who doesn't understand that a coin speaks for itself? See my story about the slabbed seated dime without CAC sticker. Do you think you would have seen the scratch oblitering the "L" and if so, would that have been a deal breaker for you?
Asking away, baby.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
here's what you stated --- I have two CAC certified coins and they are both gorgeous pieces. If I was so inclined, I could sell them in a heartbeat.
here's what I replied --- I suppose the point would be why do you need CAC to accomplish that sale?? can't the coins "speak for themselves" to a knowledgeable buyer??
you seemed to be speaking to the high quality of two coins you owned and I was simply asking why the sticker was needed if the coins were of such high quality that they'd sell "in a heartbeat" as you said.
Lemme see if I got this right. The sticker didn't influence your purchase but you say the sticker helps at the point of sale.
go re-read the thread if you're confused, there are many members who insist that having the CAC sticker results in higher prices, that's not my contention. I can't believe you let this stick in your head for three days and now you need to take statements out of context to prove........................what?? as far as I can tell you want me to admit that I sent eight coins to CAC so that I get more money at the point of sale?? do I have that right??
please clear things up if I missed anything, only don't wait another three days.
This isn't rocket science, folks. There is a significant segment of collectors who require or strongly prefer a coin under consideration for purchase to have a CAC sticker, particularly when buying from photos online. That implies that coins with a CAC sticker have a larger pool of potential buyers than those without a sticker. More potential buyers implies higher realized prices, generally speaking.
So yes, getting a CAC sticker on a coin (above a certain value) you're selling is typically a rational financial decision, whatever your personal feelings about CAC stickers may be.
All of the above presumes that what you're selling is high enough quality to have a good chance at getting the sticker.
@Gazes said:
My main point is this is not a cac specific phenomenon
No, it isn’t unique to CAC. CAC is merely an extra layer further restricting supply and further creating potential artificial rarity plastic/sticker rarity.
Why do people bring up CAC more (I’ve commented on both)? I think most see some utility for the initial opinion with each successive opinion/refinement offering diminishing returns relative to the side effects. How is CAC different from seeking any other expert’s opinion (e.g. auction viewing/representation)? It is different because of logistical/pragmatic constraints. A CAC sticker in inexplicably tied to the label grade which artificially restricts supply based on label grade alone when the coins might be completely acceptable and wholesome with a different label. An expert, including the CAC graders, lot viewing for you can give far more useful advice regarding a larger supply of coins including different services or that just need new labels. Why is this viewed problematically by some? It is because there are large swaths that buy solely on the sticker and this is distorting the market (think artificially reduced supply v demand).
I think another reason for CAC that isn't often discussed is the rise of type collecting. Given the differences in grading between series, type collectors don't have enough coins to become experts in any one series.
and this point highlights the laziness of Americans and Hobbyists --- why take the time to learn when I can just pay someone else to do it for me?? when I started to collect by "Type" I took it upon myself to actually study the type of coin I was going to buy with the overriding conclusion that it was going to make me a better collector. I posted as much here in different threads over the years.
To call anyone that does not have the level of expertise of someone who works full time at it and gets paid to be that expert as lazy is not really appropriate. There are clear reasons why TPG graders and CAC evaluators are better than us and heck yes I will rely on those better than me at this. It is not lazy to value and use their opinions on coins. You and I can study all we want, but if we don't see 100,000s of coins decade in and decade out, well, we still won't have the knowledge these folks have.
As an analogy, in the past at some shows after looking at a prospective purchase, spending time evaluating the coin, I sometimes then get the opinion of Bill Jones. Despite all of my knowledge, Bill always knows more about the coin than I do, which can then dictate whether I purchase it or not. This is because of his decades of full time dealing and getting the experience I don't have. Am I being lazy relying on Bill? Heck no.
Best, SH
This is especially true of counterfeit detection. Look at those fake $5 Libs on the other thread that apparently went undetected for decades.
Maybe I trust myself to tell a 65 from a 66 in my favorite series. Maybe I trust myself to tell a 65 from a 66 in EVERY series - I must have quit my day job. But do I really trust myself to detect every possible counterfeit in every series?
I know when my roof is leaking. But I hired an engineer when I bought my house to tell me if the roof was going to be leaking any time soon. Just one of 100 things he looked at. He noticed a crack in the masonry of the chimney that I never would have seen.
Nowhere else in life does "due diligence" require that I become an expert. I hire a lawyer to do the legal due diligence. I hire an accountant to do the financial due diligence. Why can't I "hire" a coin expert to do the numismatic due diligence?
@Gazes said:
My main point is this is not a cac specific phenomenon
No, it isn’t unique to CAC. CAC is merely an extra layer further restricting supply and further creating potential artificial rarity plastic/sticker rarity.
Why single them out? The entire coin market attempts to create artificial rarity. If I put PQ on a 2x2, it is attempting to create artificial interest.
You are right. The condition census game is sheer folly methinks. On the other hand, TPGS's actually help better establish the overall rarity or common-ness of coins. When something is pop 4750/2250, you know it isn't rare, no matter what the 2x2 says.
Why single them out? The entire coin market attempts to create artificial rarity. If I put PQ on a 2x2, it is attempting to create artificial interest.
You are right. The condition census game is sheer folly methinks. On the other hand, TPGS's actually help better establish the overall rarity or common-ness of coins. When something is pop 4750/2250, you know it isn't rare, no matter what the 2x2 says.
I edited my post probably before you refreshed the page regarding the distinctions. Also a 2x2 does not carry the force of a slab or sticker. Who cares what random basement dealer John Doe thinks of his raw coins? There aren’t enough people drinking Doe’s Kool Aid to have widespread market effects.
Who cares what random basement dealer John Doe thinks of his raw coins? There aren’t enough people drinking Doe’s Kool Aid to have widespread market effects.
we are discussing John Albanese and CAC. by posting what I highlighted, did you mean to suggest that there are enough people drinking HIS Kool Aid to have widespread effects?? that sort of how it reads.
@keets said: Who cares what random basement dealer John Doe thinks of his raw coins? There aren’t enough people drinking Doe’s Kool Aid to have widespread market effects.
we are discussing John Albanese and CAC. by posting what I highlighted, did you mean to suggest that there are enough people drinking HIS Kool Aid to have widespread effects?? that sort of how it reads.
Widespread effect of CAC? Don't be silly. We never hear about them so how could they affect anything?
@keets said: Who cares what random basement dealer John Doe thinks of his raw coins? There aren’t enough people drinking Doe’s Kool Aid to have widespread market effects.
we are discussing John Albanese and CAC. by posting what I highlighted, did you mean to suggest that there are enough people drinking HIS Kool Aid to have widespread effects?? that sort of how it reads.
Someone else brought up the random dealer with 2x2s. The analogy was out of left field; thus, my response to it appeared that way as well. I didn’t intend charged language to be directed at CAC which would only blow this thread up.
@keets said: why take the time to learn when I can just pay someone else to do it for me??
The obvious answer is that it may be more cost-effective to do the latter depending on the value of one's own time and the effort required. That said, I believe that those who do take the time to learn for themselves instead of solely relying on the expertise of others will reap rewards, particularly in a pursuit such as a collecting hobby. The collector will often be acquiring many coins over an extended period, whereas one only buys a house (to cite a previous analogy) infrequently.
@keets said: why take the time to learn when I can just pay someone else to do it for me??
oops, I said it again.
Work wise I’m pretty good at what I do. Some say I’m an expert. I’m certainly experienced. To this day I still have people that I have respect for for double check my work on the technical side. I’m anything but lazy and I pay these people well.
CAC makes so much sense to me. I still can’t believe it gets so much press. Don’t like it? Don’t use it or ignore it by all means but the CAC Genie has escaped the bottle long ago. No amount of bitching, whining, second guessing, grousing and moaning is going to stuff it back in. It is what it is.
I think some seasoned veterans are butt hurt as CAC somewhat leveled the playing field on properly graded and PQ coins. Now more less experienced collectors learning curve isn’t as steep. It’s actually a net plus for the hobby as more can participate in their selected tier.
At the end of the day it’s an individual pursuit and I could care less how others do their thing.
Oh and #300!
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
So, you're saying that I shouldn't buy a painting until I'm an expert on forgeries?
There is a reason people pay for opinions that is beyond simple laziness.
Should you not buy a car unless you're an expert mechanic?
Here we have quotes from the OP concerning fellow hobbyists:
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
but to your point, why would something against CAC get you butt-hurt??
and this point highlights the laziness of Americans and Hobbyists --- why take the time to learn when I can just pay someone else to do it for me??
I doubt you would buy something you didn't know anything about, but, sadly, many in the Hobby don't think like that. they choose not to learn.
what is probably more in need is personal education and patience, figure out what you want to collect, learn about it and then spend 25 years getting where you want to be.
Education is the key to a successful collection.
The last quote is the only true statement in the list of insults.
The grand irony is, you harp on education, yet remain adamantly, aggressively, and proudly ignorant of CAC.
I believe @keets is just stirring the pot to keep this thread going for as long as possible, with as many views as possible. My guess is it's already a record in views and posts for a CAC thread that eventually the moderators tend to close.
He's just sitting back and chuckling!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
That's the point. Collect the way you enjoy, and don't belittle those who don't approach it the way you think they should.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
The grand irony is, you harp on education, yet remain adamantly, aggressively, and proudly ignorant of CAC??
I do??
since you seem so adept at "quoting" me, please list statements I have made to support your assumption. what I do feel sort of proud about is that I have taken the time to gain enough confidence in my own ability so I don't have to have an over-reliance on someone else, be that PCGS, NGS, Joe Fabeets at the Coin Shop, some swami down the street or even CAC.
I wouldn't trust NGS.
I think CAC value increases get a lot of credit for coins that would do just as well with or without a sticker. I know with Barber Halves...a nice original midgrade coin with hard gunmetal surfaces or the like will usually sell for double what a light gray (old dip ?) coin the same grade will sell for...CAC sticker or not.
If nobody wanted another opinion, we'd never see another "Guess the grade."
Until you see the same coins in the same plastic trade publicly with and without a sticker. I recently posted a thread about a Indian Head quarter eagle that fetched 2.5x its price realized in its unstickered state from a major auction the year before. The gold market (and coin market deteriorated) in that period. It is only one example and doesn’t prove anything by itself, but I have seen the same phenomenon in varying degrees multiple times.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1038530/cac-tax/p1
There is a cohort of collectors with deep pockets willing to throw fistfuls of money to acquire top pop or near top pop CACed coins. Many are building CAC only sets and when there is a low number available, many of these individuals will aggressively engage in bidding wars. The CAC effect is very real and in a fair number of cases cannot be explained by the quality of the coin itself.
It's also worth pointing out that CAC does not automatically mean "extra pretty". If you look in the widget realm, which is most of the breadth of the market, a CAC MS65 Morgan isn't necessarily extra pretty relative to a non-CAC Morgan. It's just A/B not C for the grade. Yet, it will command the CAC premium when sold.
the rub of all this is simple to see --- looking at examples like the one cameonut2011 provided, we will know better and more of the "power of CAC" when those kind of coins come up for sale again.
While I tend to agree with your post, I've also seen numerous instances in which posters incorrectly attributed high prices realized to the effects of CAC. This has occurred where, for example, sharp dealers have paid what look to be super high prices for coins that were stickered. But those prices were actually based on hopes or expectations for upgrades, not because of the CAC stickers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Every time there is a CAC thread and people lament the change in the hobby and rail against CAC and how they don’t need it, I often think of the quote which I will paraphrase: When faced with the need to change, the first thing that most people do is try and convince themselves that they do not need to change.
Latin American Collection
How is this any different from registry sets in general? Replace "cac" in your post with "tpg" and it is the same. Yes----people will pay more for top pop coins whether it be pcgs or cac.
I had about five minutes to scan the forum early this morning, and don't really want to participate in this thread anymore. Your post triggered my comment, but it's a common diction error on the forum (among many others) and I thought I'd point it out as a general announcement for the dwindling few who might care about proper English usage. FWIW, your post still references "the CAC affect", but it's your birthday, so let's just roll with it. Cheers.
I didn't have time to elaborate the cases as I had a very busy morning ahead of me. I'm not sure what I'm welcome for. Perhaps you need to review the meaning of the word "usually".
I work in a B&M, participate here, go to coin clubs, coin shows, visit friends and look at their new purchases... I see a lot coins, more than the average Joe and feel that my experience is sufficient to find quality coins. I can get by just fine without CAC on any of my purchases, yet I highly value what they do. Why not buy a coin that another expert has seen? I certainly don't look at non CAC coins as 2nd class, but when the sticker is there I find it a nice little bonus.
Just my opinion...
My YouTube Channel
Exactly. It's an opinion. Do with it whatever you will. If it doesn't matter, ignore it. Peel it off. If you value it, bid accordingly.
Are you sure he doesn't mean "CAC affect"?
Affect:
Noun: emotion or desire, especially as influencing behavior or action.
Given Keets' views on CAC, I think "CAC affect" is probably exactly what he meant.
Well, to be fair, much of the time people don't really want another opinion on "Guess the grade". They want you to validate their personal feeling about how exceptional their new purchase is.
I bet if we all start guessing 2 grades lower than the slab we'll see a lot fewer "Guess the grade" threads.
Good lord, man, are you simply trolling? Here's the exact quote:
another aspect of the CAC affect has been touched vaguely: if CAC coins are drawing buyers and raising prices, what is the effect on prices of coins which have either been sent to CAC and failed or not been sent??
Do you still stand by your assertion?
(Sorry to belabor this, folks! If a certain poster would ever just admit that he's wrong, a lot of electrons could be put to more productive use.)
Wouldn’t stop me.
when I post them it’s more for fun and sometimes to see how well my picture corresponds to the coin. I just find it interesting to see what people think it grades.
I respond to those kinds of posts mostly to test myself on my grading (good or bad) on a photo since so much purchasing these days is, by necessity, from a photo.
Wrong about what? You were trolling Keets not me.
This is just another example of the Coinjunkie affect.
You’re each affected by the other and the effect is not beneficial.😄
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So... with all these gray lines going in all directions with names and quotes from whoever...
My question is quite simple...
Who is responsible for returning John Madden's playbook when this this thread finally ends?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Pat Summerall...
LOL. He just never quite gets the joke.
With each level of enhancement or refinement there are far fewer coins to meet demand leading to even more exaggerated results and artificial rarity. You can only slice the salami but so thinly. Then we have the creation of sticker rarities that may not even be the finest known (I.e. a 67C is theoretically a better coin than a 66B but the 66B CAC may be the CAC top pop), which I believe leads to quirky auction results. It also goes further down the chain grade wise than the classic registry phenomenon. I’d liken it to the registry phenomenon 2.0 or registry phenomenon +++.
Again, your points are the same for tpg. A pcgs 67 may not be the finest known if there is an undergraded pcgs 66 (maybe in an old slab). Quriky auction results can happen when an overgraded tpg coin sells cheaply or an undergraded tpg coin sells for a record price. Human nature is that there will always people who will want what is perceived as the best and whether it is tpg, cac, this will create pricing that some will not understand ( some coins jump 10x ---if ms65 rather than ms64---does that make sense). My main point is this is not a cac specific phenomenon
To call anyone that does not have the level of expertise of someone who works full time at it and gets paid to be that expert as lazy is not really appropriate. There are clear reasons why TPG graders and CAC evaluators are better than us and heck yes I will rely on those better than me at this. It is not lazy to value and use their opinions on coins. You and I can study all we want, but if we don't see 100,000s of coins decade in and decade out, well, we still won't have the knowledge these folks have.
As an analogy, in the past at some shows after looking at a prospective purchase, spending time evaluating the coin, I sometimes then get the opinion of Bill Jones. Despite all of my knowledge, Bill always knows more about the coin than I do, which can then dictate whether I purchase it or not. This is because of his decades of full time dealing and getting the experience I don't have. Am I being lazy relying on Bill? Heck no.
Best, SH
also a CAC "dislaimer" of my own, although I have several slabs with CAC stickers, the sticker didn't influence the purchase. if it's there it's there. finally, I submitted a group of eight coins for the sticker and they all stickered...any other questions, ask away, baby!
If the coin speaks for itself, as you say, why did you submit a group of eight coins for the sticker?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
If the coin speaks for itself, as you say, why did you submit a group of eight coins for the sticker?
to help at the point of sale.
I found a gorgeous Civil war era seated dime recently in the shop. Scarce issue, in a PCGS slab, totally original, what one with some experience hopes to see when shopping at the local B&M.
I inspected the piece thoroughly with my 10x loupe. Yep, very nice piece. It was the kind of coin that experience has taught me.....then I decide to take a final "another look" before attempting to negotiate a sale with the dealer.
I looked at "LIBERTY" on the shield closely and lo and behold there is a scratch, not long and not deep, across the "L" completely obliterating it. I would be forever reminded of that post mint damage on the piece every time I got it out to admire it so I passed on purchasing it. Didn't say a word to the dealer about the scratch which was very well blended into the coin.
Many of the new breed of collectors, the slab fans who only concern themselves with numbers, would not ever see what I saw, that which was a deal breaker for me. I look for perfect for the grade no matter the asking price.
Couldn't help but think later that John Albanese saw what I saw, that's why no CAC sticker...
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Not everyone is a fan of CAC, is on board giving them their money, or has their particular preference. I admire his being candid. Perhaps he has a lot of big ticket coins and has been hit with questions if they have been to CAC.
The thread on cointalk / will it CAC contest gives good insights on how market players will vote on whether a particular coin will CAC. It has given me some good insights (on stuff they will sticker) and been very educational.
If somebody wants CAC coins and will pay the extra money for them it’s their hobby / money on the table. I have bought and sold CAC coins. A coins coins brought the highest markup. Many players on bourse on lookout for A coins they can CAC / sell. CAC coins can realize many multiples of bid.
Be advised coins can go bad in the holder due to reaction with the atmosphere plus heat, humidity, salt air......so realize their sticker represents a point in time. There is no substitute for knowing how evaluate (where in grade range) / grade coins.
I have had other dealers come to my table at shows “can you sell that one below bid.” I tell them I don’t sell below bid and of course realize he is trying rip that one to cover costs of CAC or crackout. In another instance at a show tire kicker wanted buy a $35 raw world coin for $21. It was a Gem BU brilliant blazer world silver (raw) coin from estate probably 65 or 66 I had $17 in. I told him (amused he would want rip me 40 pct on a coin under $50) “no it’s priced as marked.” After he left I took a better look at it put it away for the slab bus it came back MS66 plus (single digit pop). Don’t let them talk you down (huge discount). Usually they have some sleazy reason.
Many players on bourse on lookout for A coins they can CAC / sell.
this is the new "crack-out" game --- look for a coin that will sticker, green and you'll at least break even, Gold and you'll profit. it precludes any chance of cracking a coin, only to find a problem, or missing the upgrade and having to re-submit till success. it is cheaper with little downside and is successful because many dealers aren't really good graders.
If the coin speaks for itself, as you say, why did you submit a group of eight coins for the sticker?
to help at the point of sale.
also a CAC "dislaimer" of my own, although I have several slabs with CAC stickers, the sticker didn't influence the purchase. if it's there it's there. finally, I submitted a group of eight coins for the sticker and they all stickered...any other questions, ask away, baby
Lemme see if I got this right. The sticker didn't influence your purchase but you say the sticker helps at the point of sale. Sale to who? Someone who doesn't understand that a coin speaks for itself? See my story about the slabbed seated dime without CAC sticker. Do you think you would have seen the scratch oblitering the "L" and if so, would that have been a deal breaker for you?
Asking away, baby.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
here's what you stated --- I have two CAC certified coins and they are both gorgeous pieces. If I was so inclined, I could sell them in a heartbeat.
here's what I replied --- I suppose the point would be why do you need CAC to accomplish that sale?? can't the coins "speak for themselves" to a knowledgeable buyer??
you seemed to be speaking to the high quality of two coins you owned and I was simply asking why the sticker was needed if the coins were of such high quality that they'd sell "in a heartbeat" as you said.
Lemme see if I got this right. The sticker didn't influence your purchase but you say the sticker helps at the point of sale.
go re-read the thread if you're confused, there are many members who insist that having the CAC sticker results in higher prices, that's not my contention. I can't believe you let this stick in your head for three days and now you need to take statements out of context to prove........................what?? as far as I can tell you want me to admit that I sent eight coins to CAC so that I get more money at the point of sale?? do I have that right??
please clear things up if I missed anything, only don't wait another three days.
This isn't rocket science, folks. There is a significant segment of collectors who require or strongly prefer a coin under consideration for purchase to have a CAC sticker, particularly when buying from photos online. That implies that coins with a CAC sticker have a larger pool of potential buyers than those without a sticker. More potential buyers implies higher realized prices, generally speaking.
So yes, getting a CAC sticker on a coin (above a certain value) you're selling is typically a rational financial decision, whatever your personal feelings about CAC stickers may be.
All of the above presumes that what you're selling is high enough quality to have a good chance at getting the sticker.
No, it isn’t unique to CAC. CAC is merely an extra layer further restricting supply and further creating potential artificial rarity plastic/sticker rarity.
Why do people bring up CAC more (I’ve commented on both)? I think most see some utility for the initial opinion with each successive opinion/refinement offering diminishing returns relative to the side effects. How is CAC different from seeking any other expert’s opinion (e.g. auction viewing/representation)? It is different because of logistical/pragmatic constraints. A CAC sticker in inexplicably tied to the label grade which artificially restricts supply based on label grade alone when the coins might be completely acceptable and wholesome with a different label. An expert, including the CAC graders, lot viewing for you can give far more useful advice regarding a larger supply of coins including different services or that just need new labels. Why is this viewed problematically by some? It is because there are large swaths that buy solely on the sticker and this is distorting the market (think artificially reduced supply v demand).
This is especially true of counterfeit detection. Look at those fake $5 Libs on the other thread that apparently went undetected for decades.
Maybe I trust myself to tell a 65 from a 66 in my favorite series. Maybe I trust myself to tell a 65 from a 66 in EVERY series - I must have quit my day job. But do I really trust myself to detect every possible counterfeit in every series?
I know when my roof is leaking. But I hired an engineer when I bought my house to tell me if the roof was going to be leaking any time soon. Just one of 100 things he looked at. He noticed a crack in the masonry of the chimney that I never would have seen.
Nowhere else in life does "due diligence" require that I become an expert. I hire a lawyer to do the legal due diligence. I hire an accountant to do the financial due diligence. Why can't I "hire" a coin expert to do the numismatic due diligence?
It's not lazy. It's smart.
Why single them out? The entire coin market attempts to create artificial rarity. If I put PQ on a 2x2, it is attempting to create artificial interest.
You are right. The condition census game is sheer folly methinks. On the other hand, TPGS's actually help better establish the overall rarity or common-ness of coins. When something is pop 4750/2250, you know it isn't rare, no matter what the 2x2 says.
I edited my post probably before you refreshed the page regarding the distinctions. Also a 2x2 does not carry the force of a slab or sticker. Who cares what random basement dealer John Doe thinks of his raw coins? There aren’t enough people drinking Doe’s Kool Aid to have widespread market effects.
why take the time to learn when I can just pay someone else to do it for me??
oops, I said it again.
Who cares what random basement dealer John Doe thinks of his raw coins? There aren’t enough people drinking Doe’s Kool Aid to have widespread market effects.
we are discussing John Albanese and CAC. by posting what I highlighted, did you mean to suggest that there are enough people drinking HIS Kool Aid to have widespread effects?? that sort of how it reads.
Widespread effect of CAC? Don't be silly. We never hear about them so how could they affect anything?
Someone else brought up the random dealer with 2x2s. The analogy was out of left field; thus, my response to it appeared that way as well. I didn’t intend charged language to be directed at CAC which would only blow this thread up.
The obvious answer is that it may be more cost-effective to do the latter depending on the value of one's own time and the effort required. That said, I believe that those who do take the time to learn for themselves instead of solely relying on the expertise of others will reap rewards, particularly in a pursuit such as a collecting hobby. The collector will often be acquiring many coins over an extended period, whereas one only buys a house (to cite a previous analogy) infrequently.
2 posts up was just me practicing my affect/effect usage.
Work wise I’m pretty good at what I do. Some say I’m an expert. I’m certainly experienced. To this day I still have people that I have respect for for double check my work on the technical side. I’m anything but lazy and I pay these people well.
CAC makes so much sense to me. I still can’t believe it gets so much press. Don’t like it? Don’t use it or ignore it by all means but the CAC Genie has escaped the bottle long ago. No amount of bitching, whining, second guessing, grousing and moaning is going to stuff it back in. It is what it is.
I think some seasoned veterans are butt hurt as CAC somewhat leveled the playing field on properly graded and PQ coins. Now more less experienced collectors learning curve isn’t as steep. It’s actually a net plus for the hobby as more can participate in their selected tier.
At the end of the day it’s an individual pursuit and I could care less how others do their thing.
Oh and #300!
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......