Here’s an example of one JA beaned—that I suspect he beaned not because it’s a technically strong 65 (it clearly has all sorts of marks)—but because he saw it worth at least 65 money due to the color.
@SeattleSlammer said:
Here’s an example of one JA beaned—that I suspect he beaned not because it’s a technically strong 65 (it clearly has all sorts of marks)—but because he saw it worth at least 65 money due to the color.
TPGs use Market Grading, which is also taught by the ANA. I had always assumed JA does too.
@CoinJunkie ... I thought it was accepted that JA beans coins not always based on technical grade merits .... but instead those he’ll buy under his guarantee at the given grade level. So that might be called market grading in some circles. In this case the ‘market’ is just him.
@SeattleSlammer said: @CoinJunkie ... I thought it was accepted that JA beans coins not always based on technical grade merits .... but instead those he’ll buy under his guarantee at the given grade level. So that might be called market grading in some circles. In this case the ‘market’ is just him.
Accepted by whom? From the CAC web site home page:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS: Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
CAC and/or its dealers may well make a market for certain coins, but nobody (who knows what they're doing) is going to sell them the coin you posted for published bid.
@SeattleSlammer said: @CoinJunkie ... I thought it was accepted that JA beans coins not always based on technical grade merits .... but instead those he’ll buy under his guarantee at the given grade level. So that might be called market grading in some circles. In this case the ‘market’ is just him.
Accepted by whom? From the CAC web site home page:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS: Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
CAC and/or its dealers may well make a market for certain coins, but nobody (who knows what they're doing) is going to sell them the coin you posted for published bid.
Published bid is the sight unseen price. Obviously. It is stated right in the fine print on the Greysheet.
@CounJunkie ... I know what the website says but that’s not always how it appears to play out ... for example the coin I posted ... so, yes I think it’s accepted by many dealers and collectors that JA will bean certain ‘special coins’ which aren’t particularly strong technically, based on him alone being willing to pay for the coin under his guarantee. More power to him!
@SeattleSlammer said: @CounJunkie ... I know what the website says but that’s not always how it appears to play out ... for example the coin I posted ... so, yes I think it’s accepted by many dealers and collectors that JA will bean certain ‘special coins’ which aren’t particularly strong technically, based on him alone being willing to pay for the coin under his guarantee. More power to him!
I think the (bolded) statement I posted is pretty black and white. If you're saying that they don't always do what they claim to do, that would seem to impugn their integrity to a degree. Just sayin'.
@CoinJunkie said:
So the conjecture is that CAC is doing market grading (now)?
Yes. It is more conservative than the services though. Maybe half a point to point max. At one point PCGS was giving 2+ points out for monster Morgans.
@SeattleSlammer said: @CoinJunkie ... I thought it was accepted that JA beans coins not always based on technical grade merits .... but instead those he’ll buy under his guarantee at the given grade level. So that might be called market grading in some circles. In this case the ‘market’ is just him.
Accepted by whom? From the CAC web site home page:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS: Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
CAC and/or its dealers may well make a market for certain coins, but nobody (who knows what they're doing) is going to sell them the coin you posted for published bid.
Published bid is the sight unseen price. Obviously. It is stated right in the fine print on the Greysheet.
@SeattleSlammer said: @CounJunkie ... I know what the website says but that’s not always how it appears to play out ... for example the coin I posted ... so, yes I think it’s accepted by many dealers and collectors that JA will bean certain ‘special coins’ which aren’t particularly strong technically, based on him alone being willing to pay for the coin under his guarantee. More power to him!
Under what guarantee?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CoinJunkie said:
So the conjecture is that CAC is doing market grading (now)?
Yes. It is more conservative than the services though. Maybe half a point to point max. At one point PCGS was giving 2+ points out for monster Morgans.
OK, good to know. They need to update the verbiage on their web site in that case. I would hope that the company itself would be the final word on "what the CAC sticker means", instead of random collectors opining on the Internet.
@SeattleSlammer said: @CoinJunkie ... I thought it was accepted that JA beans coins not always based on technical grade merits .... but instead those he’ll buy under his guarantee at the given grade level. So that might be called market grading in some circles. In this case the ‘market’ is just him.
Accepted by whom? From the CAC web site home page:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS: Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
CAC and/or its dealers may well make a market for certain coins, but nobody (who knows what they're doing) is going to sell them the coin you posted for published bid.
Published bid is the sight unseen price. Obviously. It is stated right in the fine print on the Greysheet.
@CoinJunkie said:
So the conjecture is that CAC is doing market grading (now)?
Yes. It is more conservative than the services though. Maybe half a point to point max. At one point PCGS was giving 2+ points out for monster Morgans.
OK, good to know. They need to update the verbiage on their web site in that case. I would hope that the company itself would be the final word on "what the CAC sticker means", instead of random collectors opining on the Internet.
Why? Solid for the grade doesn't have to mean technical grade.
@SeattleSlammer said: @CounJunkie ... I know what the website says but that’s not always how it appears to play out ... for example the coin I posted ... so, yes I think it’s accepted by many dealers and collectors that JA will bean certain ‘special coins’ which aren’t particularly strong technically, based on him alone being willing to pay for the coin under his guarantee. More power to him!
Under what guarantee?
No matter how many times we post it, people still don't know how it works.
as I walk the aisle, I glance at every case, and if there are very few coins (if any) with CAC's, i just keep on walking by. i don't stop to ask if he has any.
this sort of thinking, which I suspect is more prevalent than many would admit, reflects why I think the way I do and post what I post. my inference is: if a dealer doesn't have a high percentage of coins in his case at a show with a CAC sticker it means that his inventory isn't worth looking at because it is sub-par.
how have Hobbyists gotten to this point, to a point where a sticker and the opinion of one individual dismisses all raw coins and the bulk of encapsulated coins --- without even looking at them??
@keets said:
my inference is: if a dealer doesn't have a high percentage of coins in his case at a show with a CAC sticker it means that his inventory isn't worth looking at because it is sub-par.
I'd bet, in total numbers, the people who think like this are decidedly in the minority.
edited to add...
In one of the coin clubs I used to belong to, most everybody had at least a couple of coins in slabs but in their primary area of interest, having their coins slabbed was not particularly important. Considering that the company who hosts this message board attracts collectors with aligned interests, I think it's easy to overlook the reality that there's a wide world of coins (and collectors) out there who aren't laser focused on plastic and stickers.
@SeattleSlammer said: @CoinJunkie ... I thought it was accepted that JA beans coins not always based on technical grade merits .... but instead those he’ll buy under his guarantee at the given grade level. So that might be called market grading in some circles. In this case the ‘market’ is just him.
Accepted by whom? From the CAC web site home page:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS: Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
CAC and/or its dealers may well make a market for certain coins, but nobody (who knows what they're doing) is going to sell them the coin you posted for published bid.
Published bid is the sight unseen price. Obviously. It is stated right in the fine print on the Greysheet.
@SeattleSlammer said: @MFeld ...they will make offers on coins they bean ... a guarantee of sorts.
They don't even guarantee they'll pay face value. They only gurantee that they will make a bid. But, that's not a price guarantee.
I'll guarantee to bid on ANY PCGS coin and ANY CAC coin. I will also guarantee a bid on any modern U.S. Mint product. I will guarantee a bid on any modern Mint product from any Mint on the globe. I will also guaratnee bid on ALL U.S. exonomia.
People have even reported that JA has told him that he will make an offer but he isn't the right person. He's very ethical and honest.
I'd bet, in total numbers, the people who think like this are decidedly in the minority.
MasonG, read the post that I cut/pasted and highlighted, then tell me what it leads you to think. --- as I walk the aisle, I glance at every case, and if there are very few coins (if any) with CAC's, i just keep on walking by. i don't stop to ask if he has any.
Obviously he will probably never buy a coin from me...although I do have a few CAC coins that were CAC'd when I bought them. When I look at a coin to buy I don't even notice if there is a sticker or not! I have passed on plenty I noticed after that had a Bean!
@keets said: as I walk the aisle, I glance at every case, and if there are very few coins (if any) with CAC's, i just keep on walking by. i don't stop to ask if he has any.
this sort of thinking, which I suspect is more prevalent than many would admit, reflects why I think the way I do and post what I post. my inference is: if a dealer doesn't have a high percentage of coins in his case at a show with a CAC sticker it means that his inventory isn't worth looking at because it is sub-par.
how have Hobbyists gotten to this point, to a point where a sticker and the opinion of one individual dismisses all raw coins and the bulk of encapsulated coins --- without even looking at them??
@SeattleSlammer said: @CoinJunkie ... I thought it was accepted that JA beans coins not always based on technical grade merits .... but instead those he’ll buy under his guarantee at the given grade level. So that might be called market grading in some circles. In this case the ‘market’ is just him.
Accepted by whom? From the CAC web site home page:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS: Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
CAC and/or its dealers may well make a market for certain coins, but nobody (who knows what they're doing) is going to sell them the coin you posted for published bid.
Published bid is the sight unseen price. Obviously. It is stated right in the fine print on the Greysheet.
It's all one sheet now.
I don't know. Maybe some people buy ONLY the blue? Does the blue only have the CAC bids? On the combined, the CAC bids are grey not blue.
There is, by the way, only one set of CAC bids (sight unseen). There is not two sets of CAC bids on the sheet.
@keets said:
MasonG, read the post that I cut/pasted and highlighted, then tell me what it leads you to think. --- as I walk the aisle, I glance at every case, and if there are very few coins (if any) with CAC's, i just keep on walking by. i don't stop to ask if he has any.
@keets said: as I walk the aisle, I glance at every case, and if there are very few coins (if any) with CAC's, i just keep on walking by. i don't stop to ask if he has any.
this sort of thinking, which I suspect is more prevalent than many would admit, reflects why I think the way I do and post what I post. my inference is: if a dealer doesn't have a high percentage of coins in his case at a show with a CAC sticker it means that his inventory isn't worth looking at because it is sub-par.
how have Hobbyists gotten to this point, to a point where a sticker and the opinion of one individual dismisses all raw coins and the bulk of encapsulated coins --- without even looking at them??
That's a logical fallacy. It might just mean that the person buys CAC only and assumes you have no CAC.
If I only buy U.S. coins and I walk by someone only displaying ancients, I'm likely to keep walking. And vice versa.
@CoinJunkie said:
So the conjecture is that CAC is doing market grading (now)?
Yes. It is more conservative than the services though. Maybe half a point to point max. At one point PCGS was giving 2+ points out for monster Morgans.
OK, good to know. They need to update the verbiage on their web site in that case. I would hope that the company itself would be the final word on "what the CAC sticker means", instead of random collectors opining on the Internet.
Why? Solid for the grade doesn't have to mean technical grade.
CAC website: "Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade."
Any subjective adjustment for eye appeal is neither strict nor standardized.
@SeattleSlammer said: @MFeld ...they will make offers on coins they bean ... a guarantee of sorts.
They don't even guarantee they'll pay face value. They only gurantee that they will make a bid. But, that's not a price guarantee.
I'll guarantee to bid on ANY PCGS coin and ANY CAC coin. I will also guarantee a bid on any modern U.S. Mint product. I will guarantee a bid on any modern Mint product from any Mint on the globe. I will also guaratnee bid on ALL U.S. exonomia.
People have even reported that JA has told him that he will make an offer but he isn't the right person. He's very ethical and honest.
So why do we need CAC if you'll extend the same guarantee without charging $15?
@CoinJunkie said:
So why do we need CAC if you'll extend the same guarantee without charging $15?
You don't need CAC. Nobody is forced to use their services, you know.
Yeah, I regretted posting that. My point was that a guarantee to simply bid (something) on all stickered coins isn't worth much. Particularly when we're talking about coins that are never going to be sold sight unseen such as the one that was posted above that led to all of this discussion.
@SeattleSlammer said:
Here’s an example of one JA beaned—that I suspect he beaned not because it’s a technically strong 65 (it clearly has all sorts of marks)—but because he saw it worth at least 65 money due to the color.
@CoinJunkie said:
So the conjecture is that CAC is doing market grading (now)?
Yes. It is more conservative than the services though. Maybe half a point to point max. At one point PCGS was giving 2+ points out for monster Morgans.
OK, good to know. They need to update the verbiage on their web site in that case. I would hope that the company itself would be the final word on "what the CAC sticker means", instead of random collectors opining on the Internet.
Why? Solid for the grade doesn't have to mean technical grade.
CAC website: "Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade."
Any subjective adjustment for eye appeal is neither strict nor standardized.
Yet "eye appeal" IS part of the Quality of any collectible physical object. Part of the value is how it looks. Name anything that's worth more the uglier it is.
@CoinJunkie said:
So the conjecture is that CAC is doing market grading (now)?
Yes. It is more conservative than the services though. Maybe half a point to point max. At one point PCGS was giving 2+ points out for monster Morgans.
OK, good to know. They need to update the verbiage on their web site in that case. I would hope that the company itself would be the final word on "what the CAC sticker means", instead of random collectors opining on the Internet.
Why? Solid for the grade doesn't have to mean technical grade.
CAC website: "Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade."
Any subjective adjustment for eye appeal is neither strict nor standardized.
Yet "eye appeal" IS part of the Quality of any collectible physical object. Part of the value is how it looks. Name anything that's worth more the uglier it is.
I'd be the last person to argue that. But "eye appeal" is also highly subjective. When I hear the phrase "solid for the grade", I think of appropriate technical attributes combined with eye appeal which is no worse than neutral. I don't think of a substandard coin with wild colors. YMMV.
@CoinJunkie said:
So the conjecture is that CAC is doing market grading (now)?
Yes. It is more conservative than the services though. Maybe half a point to point max. At one point PCGS was giving 2+ points out for monster Morgans.
OK, good to know. They need to update the verbiage on their web site in that case. I would hope that the company itself would be the final word on "what the CAC sticker means", instead of random collectors opining on the Internet.
Why? Solid for the grade doesn't have to mean technical grade.
CAC website: "Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade."
Any subjective
That's a limitation of your viewpoint not an objective truth that CAC needs to correct
So, you're saying that PCGS standards are loose and arbitrary?
You can, IMHO, have strict and standardized market grading standards.
@SeattleSlammer said: @MFeld ...they will make offers on coins they bean ... a guarantee of sorts.
They don't even guarantee they'll pay face value. They only gurantee that they will make a bid. But, that's not a price guarantee.
I'll guarantee to bid on ANY PCGS coin and ANY CAC coin. I will also guarantee a bid on any modern U.S. Mint product. I will guarantee a bid on any modern Mint product from any Mint on the globe. I will also guaratnee bid on ALL U.S. exonomia.
People have even reported that JA has told him that he will make an offer but he isn't the right person. He's very ethical and honest.
So why do we need CAC if you'll extend the same guarantee without charging $15?
Because they are charging for the opinion on grade, not the guarantee.
We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there
Couldn't agree more!
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@MrEureka said:
CAC hurt the market for coins that didn’t bean and helped the market for those that did.
No patience to read thru all these comments but stopped at this gem of a liner, but will add, yes that's uber obnoxious, I'd never ever buy anything from such a dealer.
Comments
Here’s an example of one JA beaned—that I suspect he beaned not because it’s a technically strong 65 (it clearly has all sorts of marks)—but because he saw it worth at least 65 money due to the color.
🤔🤓
TPGs use Market Grading, which is also taught by the ANA. I had always assumed JA does too.
@Zoins .... true ... sometimes .... sometimes not
So the conjecture is that CAC is doing market grading (now)?
@CoinJunkie ... I thought it was accepted that JA beans coins not always based on technical grade merits .... but instead those he’ll buy under his guarantee at the given grade level. So that might be called market grading in some circles. In this case the ‘market’ is just him.
@winesteven said:
I agree with @Cougar that with lower priced coins the demand for CAC stickers is not as great as for coins above $500/$1,000.
I agree, it seems like when you get to that level, it seems like the great majority of collectors want the added assurance of the sticker.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
Accepted by whom? From the CAC web site home page:
WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS: Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
CAC and/or its dealers may well make a market for certain coins, but nobody (who knows what they're doing) is going to sell them the coin you posted for published bid.
Published bid is the sight unseen price. Obviously. It is stated right in the fine print on the Greysheet.
@CounJunkie ... I know what the website says but that’s not always how it appears to play out ... for example the coin I posted ... so, yes I think it’s accepted by many dealers and collectors that JA will bean certain ‘special coins’ which aren’t particularly strong technically, based on him alone being willing to pay for the coin under his guarantee. More power to him!
I think the (bolded) statement I posted is pretty black and white. If you're saying that they don't always do what they claim to do, that would seem to impugn their integrity to a degree. Just sayin'.
Yes. It is more conservative than the services though. Maybe half a point to point max. At one point PCGS was giving 2+ points out for monster Morgans.
Hmmmm, I thought those were blue sheet prices!
Under what guarantee?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
OK, good to know. They need to update the verbiage on their web site in that case. I would hope that the company itself would be the final word on "what the CAC sticker means", instead of random collectors opining on the Internet.
From an older (several years ago) greysheet:
"Bids reported consider activity in the certified sight-unseen market."
It's all one sheet now.
Why? Solid for the grade doesn't have to mean technical grade.
No matter how many times we post it, people still don't know how it works.
@MFeld ...they will make offers on coins they bean ... a guarantee of sorts.
as I walk the aisle, I glance at every case, and if there are very few coins (if any) with CAC's, i just keep on walking by. i don't stop to ask if he has any.
this sort of thinking, which I suspect is more prevalent than many would admit, reflects why I think the way I do and post what I post. my inference is: if a dealer doesn't have a high percentage of coins in his case at a show with a CAC sticker it means that his inventory isn't worth looking at because it is sub-par.
how have Hobbyists gotten to this point, to a point where a sticker and the opinion of one individual dismisses all raw coins and the bulk of encapsulated coins --- without even looking at them??
By practice and custom, yes; however, that is not the same as a guarantee. CAC is not obligated to make an offer.
I'd bet, in total numbers, the people who think like this are decidedly in the minority.
edited to add...
In one of the coin clubs I used to belong to, most everybody had at least a couple of coins in slabs but in their primary area of interest, having their coins slabbed was not particularly important. Considering that the company who hosts this message board attracts collectors with aligned interests, I think it's easy to overlook the reality that there's a wide world of coins (and collectors) out there who aren't laser focused on plastic and stickers.
So why is their even a bluesheet now???
They don't even guarantee they'll pay face value. They only gurantee that they will make a bid. But, that's not a price guarantee.
I'll guarantee to bid on ANY PCGS coin and ANY CAC coin. I will also guarantee a bid on any modern U.S. Mint product. I will guarantee a bid on any modern Mint product from any Mint on the globe. I will also guaratnee bid on ALL U.S. exonomia.
People have even reported that JA has told him that he will make an offer but he isn't the right person. He's very ethical and honest.
I'd bet, in total numbers, the people who think like this are decidedly in the minority.
MasonG, read the post that I cut/pasted and highlighted, then tell me what it leads you to think. --- as I walk the aisle, I glance at every case, and if there are very few coins (if any) with CAC's, i just keep on walking by. i don't stop to ask if he has any.
Obviously he will probably never buy a coin from me...although I do have a few CAC coins that were CAC'd when I bought them. When I look at a coin to buy I don't even notice if there is a sticker or not! I have passed on plenty I noticed after that had a Bean!
I don't know. Maybe some people buy ONLY the blue? Does the blue only have the CAC bids? On the combined, the CAC bids are grey not blue.
There is, by the way, only one set of CAC bids (sight unseen). There is not two sets of CAC bids on the sheet.
I don't understand what you're saying here.
That's a logical fallacy. It might just mean that the person buys CAC only and assumes you have no CAC.
If I only buy U.S. coins and I walk by someone only displaying ancients, I'm likely to keep walking. And vice versa.
CAC website: "Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade."
Any subjective adjustment for eye appeal is neither strict nor standardized.
So why do we need CAC if you'll extend the same guarantee without charging $15?
You don't need CAC. Nobody is forced to use their services, you know.
1st I trust my eyes (as bad as they are)
2nd I trust the second party grading services..................
3rd I always refer to #1
My view is:
I buy what I like
Others can buy what they like
Yeah, I regretted posting that. My point was that a guarantee to simply bid (something) on all stickered coins isn't worth much. Particularly when we're talking about coins that are never going to be sold sight unseen such as the one that was posted above that led to all of this discussion.
Because Net Grading works both ways 😉
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yet "eye appeal" IS part of the Quality of any collectible physical object. Part of the value is how it looks. Name anything that's worth more the uglier it is.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I'd be the last person to argue that. But "eye appeal" is also highly subjective. When I hear the phrase "solid for the grade", I think of appropriate technical attributes combined with eye appeal which is no worse than neutral. I don't think of a substandard coin with wild colors. YMMV.
That's a limitation of your viewpoint not an objective truth that CAC needs to correct
So, you're saying that PCGS standards are loose and arbitrary?
You can, IMHO, have strict and standardized market grading standards.
Because they are charging for the opinion on grade, not the guarantee.
Just read the entire thread again and you won’t need them
Okay..... Oxycontin
We do not send coins to CAC, we do not support CAC standards which we see as biased, non-transparent, arbitrary, and out of touch with the collector market; and we believe CAC is very harmful to the health of the market, so this coin has not been there
Couldn't agree more!
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@Zoins said:
No patience to read thru all these comments but stopped at this gem of a liner, but will add, yes that's uber obnoxious, I'd never ever buy anything from such a dealer.
Good to see you back. I hope all is well post COVID-19.
Post deleted.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Oh, no! What did I miss?
We are nearly at 500 posts... What the takeaways?
-Call JA from the golf course seeking his opinion on which degree sandwedge to use out of the bunker;
-Actually the call should have been made in connection with club selection before the last shot that produced a bunker dilemma in the first place;
-There is more to Beans than what is for dinner; and my favorite
-There are numismatic opportunities never seen out of our inherent bias as to how we search for them
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
OK, maybe this message is self-serving, but...
500!!!