@1951WheatiesPremium said: After watching Brent's interview it seemed very clear that many cards have been attempted to be enhanced and he appears to suggest that is okay.
I would say that MOST people who ALTER CARDS view it as no big deal.
And most that don’t, do.
I know I don’t and I do.
I agree.
It is kind of like someone who lies a lot they begin to believe their own lies.
I just posted an article from 1996. Take the time to read the PSA one and perhaps you will see why I think his comments are suggesting this has been common place and people are fooling themselves if they think otherwise.
Brent’s position, if the experts can’t detect it then why should we care, is indefensible.
Going back to the beginning the hobby has been based on a paradigm that cards should basically be UNALTERED for hobby purposes. Nothing should be done to them physically to enhance their desirability as collectibles. Attempts to hide whatever may have happened to them in their lifetime journey from pack to present day are considered tampering (I know some will want to argue about wiping off wax with nylons, etc., but the basic idea is no tampering).
It is assumed that anything in a slab with a number grade has not been doctored or in any way manipulated to try to improve the grade put on the slab label. It is assumed that the item in the slab has got all of its “original miles” showing on the odometer. Since TPGs are human, we have to allow for the reality that some errors will be made.
The scammers know that superior “original lifetime condition” is what the hobby values and they try to exploit it. They know they are acting in a fraudent manner and don’t care. They may be scum, but unfortunately the authorities are usually focused on things of more significance to society, and the laws that do exist which could be used to go after these people have lots of wiggle room to enable escape in the event the authorities actually do try to make a case against them. We can only hope that the most aggregious of them can be made an example of.
As one of the largest consignment sales operators in the hobby, at the very least Brent knew all of the above and decided to look the other way and then, when called on it, he tried to justify it as being acceptable. That should tell us all we need to know. Then again, anyone paying attention to his exposed messages of the shilling directions he was giving to certain people in the “buying group” in 2016 already should have known what he was and is about. If he was more deeply involved in the most recent scandal as some of what has been uncovered may now suggest then he deserves the same fate as his accomplices for being directly involved in a scheme to defraud.
The fact that there are unethical scammers who are looking to profit by altering cards in ways that are sometimes not detectable by TPGs is a problem. How big a problem remains to be quantified, and anyone who is making any statements along these lines is guessing or has an agenda that they are trying to push. We know that the TPGs are regularly updating their technology and procedures in hopes of closing down any gaps that the scammers are using, but realistically they are always likely to be a step behind. We can only hope they will 1) redouble their efforts to minimize this possibility, 2) accept any responsibilities that they have to innocent collectors who have become victims of these scammers, 3) do their best to have bad actors held countable through whatever criminal and/or civil means are available and 4) be forthcoming, transparent and as timely as they can be in keeping the hobby stakeholders aware of the progress they are making in addressing the problem and cleaning up the fallout from it.
Brent may turn out to be a criminal but I don't jump to conclusions based on internet sleuthing. The same sleuths had that board convinced that the Honus Wagner PSA 8 was recalled if you will and as witnessed by the moderators comment in the thread here that couldn't be further from the truth.
>
David,
Please don't take my comments as trolling because it's not. But I think you should go back and reread the thread on BO, which is where the "internet sleuthing" has taken place. Not ONE of the people who have exposed altered cards chimed in on the Wagner event of today. Those that did are the same poop flinging monkeys who always grab an opportunity to hurl excrement at PSA and anyone whose views don't match theirs or their agenda.
Viewing before and after photos of those cards that the "internet sleuths" have uncovered, I personally, would find it hard to say they are jumping to conclusions. Perhaps you don't but if you were able to run a filter over those threads and weed out all the poop flingers sitting on the fence who just enjoy the spectacle and probably don't have any skin in the game from those that are actually doing the leg work it's clear they haven't missed, haven't accused with out solid proof.
The BO thread and the Net 54 thread on the Wagner are a reflection off a major problem in the hobby (and society as a whole) a desire to gossip and fit the observable facts to ones opinion. The only way to combat that is by quick, honest disclosure. Sure PSA can't monitor boards all over the Internet but not one those monkeys on either forum said "Gee maybe we should ask PSA". Instead they went back to the gossip and conspiracy theories that fits their points of view.
And to be clear for anyone who reads this from other boards. I don't drink the preverbal PSA Kool Aide. I've stopped buying graded cards until I personally am comfortable with how 3rd Party Graders have addressed the issues that are being raised. I will however commend PSA and @AFLfan for the quick response to my question. Hopefully more often in the future people will ask questions at "The Source" rather than speculate and spread FUD. And hopefully "The Source" will respond in a timely and honest fashion which then stops the spread of FUD.
@LOTSOS I only know of the Blowout avatars and the Game of Thrones card and the Mario Brothers throwing a red pill certainly commented in that thread. In reality I was just lumping the Blowout crew in as one as a generalization because no one on there stopped to think hey maybe there is a reason for this that isn't motivated by being out for PSA blood. I made a similar comment a few months back about all of the T-206 autos being fake and someone was quick to point out I was wrong and once again it was a generalization suggesting pretty much they all are and sure enough the guy that is the top collector of those confirmed a few weeks ago basically they are all fake. There might be a few real ones but not many.
I understand why people are upset and self policing can certainly be helpful in life. I don't fall into the category of following the herd and on every board there are views that if you won't cease dealing with PWCC you are scum. I don't see it that way because as I pointed out these cards can turn up anywhere and people are fooling themselves otherwise. I enjoy collecting way too much to let something like this get in the way of my collection. On another board I was having fun in a spirited back and forth and of course I was in the minority and not two days later a bunch of cards showed up in the Mile High auction. This stuff has been taking place forever. I am not saying it makes it right but it is what it is. In the article I posted above you have Mr. Mint talking about bleaching and trimming cards in 1996 and how it has been taking place for quite sometime. This is nothing new and I find it very hard to believe that the buyers of these vintage cards have not done some research especially when you see the prices of cards can exceed 10 million.
If someone wants to drop out of buying graded cards because of this that is their prerogative. My hope for them is that they can find a way to still participate in the hobby and find enjoyment out of it. For me collecting is fun. If it is no longer fun than it is time for someone to either leave or try and make it fun and I hope for your sake you can accomplish this.
Two times in the past few days someone with a rebuttal said essentially please don't take this as trolling. Having different opinions and expressing them in a very civil manner is certainly not trolling. I personally think it is healthy when people make their points and allow for others to make their's and I take no offense what so ever. I do think though that people need to give some thought to the fact that not everyone has to respond to crisis in the same manner. We all have different motivations and they don't always have to be the same so my response to this is my response and someone else's is theirs and that should be considered okay.
lots of facinating and differing opinions in this thread. I am curious of the demographics of the dispersion in opinions. that is , is it the younger group that has the hardline stance that the card must go from pack to holder untouched? is it the older group that is more accepting of certain "common" practices like wiping wax ?
I have been around this hobby a long time before grading. I think it is important to think why grading evolved to where it is. Back when prices skyrocketed in the 70's and 80's , the crooks came out of the woodwork. Recoloring cards with sharpies, trimming (and bad trimming as many were caught off guard that someone would do this) , using chemicals to whiten cards and many other restoration processes that I think we all agree are unacceptable. Grading did not become popular because someone soaked a bent card in water or soaked a tobacco card that was yellow to get the smoke out of it. Remember these were sold with cigarettes that were smoked in a room with no ventilation. lol
I have seen many posts throughout the years of glue removal , water stain removal , etc where cards were soaked in distilled water. If that is all that was done, I am confident that no one on this board or at psa could pick the cards out of a stack if they were randomly inserted into a stack of say 100. The additional steps that have been discussed on this board like soaking , stretching then trimming I would hope psa or a seasoned collector could detect.
as for the modern card alterations , I can't offer anything as I have clearly shown my age with my previous comments and am not familiar with these cards
Personally, I can't let this scandal get in the way of my collecting Joe Louis cards. If Joe calls, I come running. No matter where he is. I guess it's kind of like rescuing a cat from the road. Hold on Joe, buddy, I'm coming to get ya!
@doubledragon said:
Personally, I can't let this scandal get in the way of my collecting Joe Louis cards. If Joe calls, I come running. No matter where he is. I guess it's kind of like rescuing a cat from the road. Hold on Joe, buddy, I'm coming to get ya!
@beachbumcollecting said:
lots of facinating and differing opinions in this thread. I am curious of the demographics of the dispersion in opinions. that is , is it the younger group that has the hardline stance that the card must go from pack to holder untouched? is it the older group that is more accepting of certain "common" practices like wiping wax ?
I have been around this hobby a long time before grading. I think it is important to think why grading evolved to where it is. Back when prices skyrocketed in the 70's and 80's , the crooks came out of the woodwork. Recoloring cards with sharpies, trimming (and bad trimming as many were caught off guard that someone would do this) , using chemicals to whiten cards and many other restoration processes that I think we all agree are unacceptable. Grading did not become popular because someone soaked a bent card in water or soaked a tobacco card that was yellow to get the smoke out of it. Remember these were sold with cigarettes that were smoked in a room with no ventilation. lol
I have seen many posts throughout the years of glue removal , water stain removal , etc where cards were soaked in distilled water. If that is all that was done, I am confident that no one on this board or at psa could pick the cards out of a stack if they were randomly inserted into a stack of say 100. The additional steps that have been discussed on this board like soaking , stretching then trimming I would hope psa or a seasoned collector could detect.
as for the modern card alterations , I can't offer anything as I have clearly shown my age with my previous comments and am not familiar with these cards
@beachbumcollecting said:
lots of facinating and differing opinions in this thread. I am curious of the demographics of the dispersion in opinions. that is , is it the younger group that has the hardline stance that the card must go from pack to holder untouched? is it the older group that is more accepting of certain "common" practices like wiping wax ?
I have been around this hobby a long time before grading. I think it is important to think why grading evolved to where it is. Back when prices skyrocketed in the 70's and 80's , the crooks came out of the woodwork. Recoloring cards with sharpies, trimming (and bad trimming as many were caught off guard that someone would do this) , using chemicals to whiten cards and many other restoration processes that I think we all agree are unacceptable. Grading did not become popular because someone soaked a bent card in water or soaked a tobacco card that was yellow to get the smoke out of it. Remember these were sold with cigarettes that were smoked in a room with no ventilation. lol
I have seen many posts throughout the years of glue removal , water stain removal , etc where cards were soaked in distilled water. If that is all that was done, I am confident that no one on this board or at psa could pick the cards out of a stack if they were randomly inserted into a stack of say 100. The additional steps that have been discussed on this board like soaking , stretching then trimming I would hope psa or a seasoned collector could detect.
as for the modern card alterations , I can't offer anything as I have clearly shown my age with my previous comments and am not familiar with these cards
It’s more a mindset than generational. I bet it’s pretty even although I don’t know what the breakdown is in terms of how many accept “conservation” and how many don’t. The latter group is certainly more vocal.
It does appear that young trimmers alter young cards and old trimmers alter old ones.
Comments
I agree.
It is kind of like someone who lies a lot they begin to believe their own lies.
I just posted an article from 1996. Take the time to read the PSA one and perhaps you will see why I think his comments are suggesting this has been common place and people are fooling themselves if they think otherwise.
Brent’s position, if the experts can’t detect it then why should we care, is indefensible.
Going back to the beginning the hobby has been based on a paradigm that cards should basically be UNALTERED for hobby purposes. Nothing should be done to them physically to enhance their desirability as collectibles. Attempts to hide whatever may have happened to them in their lifetime journey from pack to present day are considered tampering (I know some will want to argue about wiping off wax with nylons, etc., but the basic idea is no tampering).
It is assumed that anything in a slab with a number grade has not been doctored or in any way manipulated to try to improve the grade put on the slab label. It is assumed that the item in the slab has got all of its “original miles” showing on the odometer. Since TPGs are human, we have to allow for the reality that some errors will be made.
The scammers know that superior “original lifetime condition” is what the hobby values and they try to exploit it. They know they are acting in a fraudent manner and don’t care. They may be scum, but unfortunately the authorities are usually focused on things of more significance to society, and the laws that do exist which could be used to go after these people have lots of wiggle room to enable escape in the event the authorities actually do try to make a case against them. We can only hope that the most aggregious of them can be made an example of.
As one of the largest consignment sales operators in the hobby, at the very least Brent knew all of the above and decided to look the other way and then, when called on it, he tried to justify it as being acceptable. That should tell us all we need to know. Then again, anyone paying attention to his exposed messages of the shilling directions he was giving to certain people in the “buying group” in 2016 already should have known what he was and is about. If he was more deeply involved in the most recent scandal as some of what has been uncovered may now suggest then he deserves the same fate as his accomplices for being directly involved in a scheme to defraud.
The fact that there are unethical scammers who are looking to profit by altering cards in ways that are sometimes not detectable by TPGs is a problem. How big a problem remains to be quantified, and anyone who is making any statements along these lines is guessing or has an agenda that they are trying to push. We know that the TPGs are regularly updating their technology and procedures in hopes of closing down any gaps that the scammers are using, but realistically they are always likely to be a step behind. We can only hope they will 1) redouble their efforts to minimize this possibility, 2) accept any responsibilities that they have to innocent collectors who have become victims of these scammers, 3) do their best to have bad actors held countable through whatever criminal and/or civil means are available and 4) be forthcoming, transparent and as timely as they can be in keeping the hobby stakeholders aware of the progress they are making in addressing the problem and cleaning up the fallout from it.
Dave
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304673
it appears the known pop of altered cards continues to grow
>
David,
Please don't take my comments as trolling because it's not. But I think you should go back and reread the thread on BO, which is where the "internet sleuthing" has taken place. Not ONE of the people who have exposed altered cards chimed in on the Wagner event of today. Those that did are the same poop flinging monkeys who always grab an opportunity to hurl excrement at PSA and anyone whose views don't match theirs or their agenda.
Viewing before and after photos of those cards that the "internet sleuths" have uncovered, I personally, would find it hard to say they are jumping to conclusions. Perhaps you don't but if you were able to run a filter over those threads and weed out all the poop flingers sitting on the fence who just enjoy the spectacle and probably don't have any skin in the game from those that are actually doing the leg work it's clear they haven't missed, haven't accused with out solid proof.
The BO thread and the Net 54 thread on the Wagner are a reflection off a major problem in the hobby (and society as a whole) a desire to gossip and fit the observable facts to ones opinion. The only way to combat that is by quick, honest disclosure. Sure PSA can't monitor boards all over the Internet but not one those monkeys on either forum said "Gee maybe we should ask PSA". Instead they went back to the gossip and conspiracy theories that fits their points of view.
And to be clear for anyone who reads this from other boards. I don't drink the preverbal PSA Kool Aide. I've stopped buying graded cards until I personally am comfortable with how 3rd Party Graders have addressed the issues that are being raised. I will however commend PSA and @AFLfan for the quick response to my question. Hopefully more often in the future people will ask questions at "The Source" rather than speculate and spread FUD. And hopefully "The Source" will respond in a timely and honest fashion which then stops the spread of FUD.
Kevin
Kevin
@LOTSOS I only know of the Blowout avatars and the Game of Thrones card and the Mario Brothers throwing a red pill certainly commented in that thread. In reality I was just lumping the Blowout crew in as one as a generalization because no one on there stopped to think hey maybe there is a reason for this that isn't motivated by being out for PSA blood. I made a similar comment a few months back about all of the T-206 autos being fake and someone was quick to point out I was wrong and once again it was a generalization suggesting pretty much they all are and sure enough the guy that is the top collector of those confirmed a few weeks ago basically they are all fake. There might be a few real ones but not many.
I understand why people are upset and self policing can certainly be helpful in life. I don't fall into the category of following the herd and on every board there are views that if you won't cease dealing with PWCC you are scum. I don't see it that way because as I pointed out these cards can turn up anywhere and people are fooling themselves otherwise. I enjoy collecting way too much to let something like this get in the way of my collection. On another board I was having fun in a spirited back and forth and of course I was in the minority and not two days later a bunch of cards showed up in the Mile High auction. This stuff has been taking place forever. I am not saying it makes it right but it is what it is. In the article I posted above you have Mr. Mint talking about bleaching and trimming cards in 1996 and how it has been taking place for quite sometime. This is nothing new and I find it very hard to believe that the buyers of these vintage cards have not done some research especially when you see the prices of cards can exceed 10 million.
If someone wants to drop out of buying graded cards because of this that is their prerogative. My hope for them is that they can find a way to still participate in the hobby and find enjoyment out of it. For me collecting is fun. If it is no longer fun than it is time for someone to either leave or try and make it fun and I hope for your sake you can accomplish this.
Two times in the past few days someone with a rebuttal said essentially please don't take this as trolling. Having different opinions and expressing them in a very civil manner is certainly not trolling. I personally think it is healthy when people make their points and allow for others to make their's and I take no offense what so ever. I do think though that people need to give some thought to the fact that not everyone has to respond to crisis in the same manner. We all have different motivations and they don't always have to be the same so my response to this is my response and someone else's is theirs and that should be considered okay.
lots of facinating and differing opinions in this thread. I am curious of the demographics of the dispersion in opinions. that is , is it the younger group that has the hardline stance that the card must go from pack to holder untouched? is it the older group that is more accepting of certain "common" practices like wiping wax ?
I have been around this hobby a long time before grading. I think it is important to think why grading evolved to where it is. Back when prices skyrocketed in the 70's and 80's , the crooks came out of the woodwork. Recoloring cards with sharpies, trimming (and bad trimming as many were caught off guard that someone would do this) , using chemicals to whiten cards and many other restoration processes that I think we all agree are unacceptable. Grading did not become popular because someone soaked a bent card in water or soaked a tobacco card that was yellow to get the smoke out of it. Remember these were sold with cigarettes that were smoked in a room with no ventilation. lol
I have seen many posts throughout the years of glue removal , water stain removal , etc where cards were soaked in distilled water. If that is all that was done, I am confident that no one on this board or at psa could pick the cards out of a stack if they were randomly inserted into a stack of say 100. The additional steps that have been discussed on this board like soaking , stretching then trimming I would hope psa or a seasoned collector could detect.
as for the modern card alterations , I can't offer anything as I have clearly shown my age with my previous comments and am not familiar with these cards
Personally, I can't let this scandal get in the way of my collecting Joe Louis cards. If Joe calls, I come running. No matter where he is. I guess it's kind of like rescuing a cat from the road. Hold on Joe, buddy, I'm coming to get ya!
@Estil
Is that you?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Welcome to the forum
It’s more a mindset than generational. I bet it’s pretty even although I don’t know what the breakdown is in terms of how many accept “conservation” and how many don’t. The latter group is certainly more vocal.
It does appear that young trimmers alter young cards and old trimmers alter old ones.
Ok. I just deleted all of the cat jokes. If you guys want to talk cards again, give it a shot. If not, I can close the thread.