You are missing a lot, too much to do justice in one post here. No one is concerned that PWCC would sell cards in authentic/altered slabs. That would actually be the appropriate thing to do. I would recommend reading all of the threads on the Blowout forum. Go ahead and start with the link on the previous page of this thread. The title of that new thread on Blowout is:
Brent Huigens & PWCC Used pwcc_auctions ID to Buy Cards for Gary Moser to Trim/Alter
In brief, the latest allegation is that PWCC bought cards itself, had them altered by a known card doctor, got them through PSA with a number grade, and then sold them for a profit. While in at least one instance, allegedly putting their "high-end" sticker on it. That's a bit concerning, no?
It is almost indisputable at this point that PWCC has been selling cards for years that received number grades from PSA but that were in fact altered. The evidence strongly suggests that they knew they were doing so the whole time. Many have concluded that they did so with intention and were in on it from the start. Regardless, there is visual before and after evidence on the blowout threads that is quite compelling that PSA whiffed on card after card and that this isn't just a matter of a few "getting by the goalie" or whatever.
It always, unfortunately comes back to money, and everyone's own self interests. The vast majority of the hobby decided a long time ago that sports cards that were "pure" (unaltered in anyway) were harder to come by, more desirable to many ... and therefore worth more money. That general rule of thumb holds true for most collectibles. The problem is, the first "card collectors" didn't think that way at all. They glued their cards into scrapbooks, punched holes in them, stamped or wrote their names on them, flipped them with friends, put them in their bike spokes, and stored them in boxes without any thought at all to their condition. One card wasn't worth any more (or less) than any other card.
Then one day, a long time ago ... little Johnny decided that his friend Billy needed to trade him two cards for his one card. He stuck to his guns and eventually Billy gave in, giving up 2 cards for a single card.
That historical transaction started the 'supply and demand' side of the hobby that continues to drive it today.
Over time, collectors (and sellers) have made different choices, based on their own self interests, preferences... or greed. Many Pre-war & tobacco guys decided that since so many of the older cards were glued into scrap books, or written on .. that minor erasing & soaking were OK to help remove scrap or pencil marks. Many new card collectors are fine with buffing out scratches on their chrome cards. Some are OK with using chemicals that fill in scratch marks and some are not. Some guys are purists that want nothing done to their cards, and some guys could care less if their cards are trimmed or completely rebuilt. That's the problem ... what you think is OK may not be what I think is OK .. and if you sell me a card, without disclosure I may feel cheated. It's the same thing with describing raw card conditions, if you tell me it's NM and I think it looks EX we're going to be at an impasse.
Grading and authentication were supposed to help resolve those issues, but collectors still argue over graded card conditions, and as some collectors are just now finding out ... they can't catch all of the doctored cards. It's gotten better, and most people probably think that grading has helped the hobby evolve and thrive. However, at the same time ... it's created more greed, it's drastically altered the economics of collecting, and it's also helped to shield & give credibility to the doctored cards that get past the gate keepers.
Card doctors, thieves, con-artists and corruption have been involved in our hobby for many decades. Ever since little Johnny secretly wiped the dirt stain off his card, before he traded it to Billy.
It's not going to go away and the TPG's will never be 100% perfect. Each collector has to decide for themselves what amount of possible deception / corruption they can tolerate ... and still enjoy collecting.
Sorry if I have missed a "game changer" here. I would really like to know what the HUGE problem with PWCC is here?
Have you been following any of the threads over on BO pointing out the hundreds of doctored cards that PWCC has been selling from just Gary Moser alone? The guys investigating over there are at the point where they're showing proof that:
1. PWCC is purchasing certain cards with their own buyer's account
2. the cards are then getting cracked to go thru a complete workover that is much more than just a simple cleaning (ie...trimming/touch-up/removing large creases)
3. Then resubmit to hopefully slip by PSA
4. Relisted for sale by PWCC and in many cases has a HE/PQ sticker slapped on top of everything.
We're not seeing PWCC list cards as "authentic/altered" because everyone involved in this scheme is trying to slip these cards past PSA's graders for higher grades/more money in the end.
This isn't about PWCC policing sellers,it's about PWCC knowingly altering their own cards then trying to pawn them off as Supreme Quality or whatever gimmick they're using now.
The few guys that are doing all of the investigative legwork have been extremely thorough and have made sure that they back up every statement so this doesn't look like just a witch hunt. There's plenty of proof posted for all to see at this point.
so what is next for PWCC? I assume someone would have to file a criminal complaint to kick off a law enforcement investigation. If someone was defrauded, they could proceed with a civil lawsuit. Seems too big to be just left alone in either realm.
@JoeBanzai said:
Now PWCC will be (?) listing cards slabbed as "authentic/altered" by a TPG and this is a huge problem? If a seller sends them an altered card that resides in a TPG holder with a numeric grade, they are not here to police that seller imo.
Actually that is the auction houses job according to the Feds. Any and all alterations must be disclosed to the public. That's one of the many reasons Bill Mastro went to jail.
Sorry if I have missed a "game changer" here. I would really like to know what the HUGE problem with PWCC is here?
Have you been following any of the threads over on BO pointing out the hundreds of doctored cards that PWCC has been selling from just Gary Moser alone? The guys investigating over there are at the point where they're showing proof that:
1. PWCC is purchasing certain cards with their own buyer's account
2. the cards are then getting cracked to go thru a complete workover that is much more than just a simple cleaning (ie...trimming/touch-up/removing large creases)
3. Then resubmit to hopefully slip by PSA
4. Relisted for sale by PWCC and in many cases has a HE/PQ sticker slapped on top of everything.
We're not seeing PWCC list cards as "authentic/altered" because everyone involved in this scheme is trying to slip these cards past PSA's graders for higher grades/more money in the end.
This isn't about PWCC policing sellers,it's about PWCC knowingly altering their own cards then trying to pawn them off as Supreme Quality or whatever gimmick they're using now.
The few guys that are doing all of the investigative legwork have been extremely thorough and have made sure that they back up every statement so this doesn't look like just a witch hunt. There's plenty of proof posted for all to see at this point.
Then all of us "small" stakeholders should be contacting the reputable big hobby stakeholders and requesting that they release a statement and initiate actions, either separately or collaboratively, to restore some confidence to the hobby. Such a statement would most impactful if it said something to the effect that:
They are taking these allegations seriously and are actively looking into them
If there are findings that any of the allegations are indeed true they are committed to taking actions in an effort to prevent further occurrences of such instances from being possible
If they have not already done so, they will begin efforts in earnest to solicit cooperation from the proper legal authorities in hopes of getting their assistance to investigate any of these allegations that, if true, would be violations of federal, state of local fraud statutes or any other laws
They will do their best to provide timely and regular updates to the hobby stakeholders through future public statements to keep everyone aware of the findings, developments and progress being made
Think of the positive impact that such a collaborative and cooperative joint statement and effort by the major TPGs, big auction houses, etc. would have right now in stabilizing things and coordinating the currently scattered and largely "unofficial" efforts to actually deal with these issues that are clearly very troubling and concerning to the stakeholders in the hobby.
It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.
@1970s said:
Brent had a wonderful business going. He was the most trusted name in the hobby. Everyone loved using his service. He was making a fortune selling sports cards. Living the dream. How in the world did he ever decide to take part in this stuff ? So sad to see someone who was so well respected and appreciated go down this path.
This just didn't happen overnight or on a misguided $ whim.
It's way past "speculation" on a bunch of $150-200 PSA 1.5's when on page one of this very thread there is a Mantle 52 Topps PSA 4.5 auctioned off by PWCC that had the very same work done as all of those "$150-200 PSA 1.5's" yet it sold for $58,847.47.
@krisd3279 said:
Have you actually watched the video that PWCC released? I think there is a big difference between knowing something is out there and trying to justify it. Two completely different things. I think most of us know these types of doctored cards are out there. Brent took it to a whole other level in that video saying it is OK to doctor cards as long as you can't detect it. I don't think anyone is arguing that an altered card should be marked on the flip. That much is obvious. If it is an undetectable alteration and someone is going to submit the card for grading are they always going to disclose it? Do they always disclose it now? If it is 'undetectable' and not disclosed now we have an altered card in a holder without any sort of designation. Brent knows this is already happening just like everyone else. He must also know the eventual outcome of him justifying this is more undetected doctored cards in holders.
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
Sorry if I have missed a "game changer" here. I would really like to know what the HUGE problem with PWCC is here?
Have you been following any of the threads over on BO pointing out the hundreds of doctored cards that PWCC has been selling from just Gary Moser alone? The guys investigating over there are at the point where they're showing proof that:
1. PWCC is purchasing certain cards with their own buyer's account
2. the cards are then getting cracked to go thru a complete workover that is much more than just a simple cleaning (ie...trimming/touch-up/removing large creases)
3. Then resubmit to hopefully slip by PSA
4. Relisted for sale by PWCC and in many cases has a HE/PQ sticker slapped on top of everything.
We're not seeing PWCC list cards as "authentic/altered" because everyone involved in this scheme is trying to slip these cards past PSA's graders for higher grades/more money in the end.
This isn't about PWCC policing sellers,it's about PWCC knowingly altering their own cards then trying to pawn them off as Supreme Quality or whatever gimmick they're using now.
The few guys that are doing all of the investigative legwork have been extremely thorough and have made sure that they back up every statement so this doesn't look like just a witch hunt. There's plenty of proof posted for all to see at this point.
Thanks for the information. I looked at some of the posts and at least now I am understanding the allegations. I am not sure if what I am seeing is proof, some of the scans are blurry and different sizes. Looks like a couple of cards might have gotten trimmed. I am also not an amateur investigator, so I can't be sure these are the same cards, but is is certainly suspicious.
Having worked in the printed circuit industry for 24 years, I can tell you that certain printing flaws will be reproduced over and over again, but there are some disturbing "coincidences" here.
Looks like the TPG's had better step up their game though.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.
There is a thread on Blowout attempting to do this, at least for one of the card doctors.
@MLBdays said: @erikthredd ....and PWCC was transparent correct? ...and the money buys the card in a free market with full disclosure....what else ya got?
Auction ended on May 9th and Brent's big Youtube "disclosure" was on May 19th. The was never any full disclosure on that auction while it was currently ongoing.
And what else have I got? Literally a list of hundreds upon hundreds of other PWCC cards showing before and after pics but you know where to find those.
@krisd3279 said:
Have you actually watched the video that PWCC released? I think there is a big difference between knowing something is out there and trying to justify it. Two completely different things. I think most of us know these types of doctored cards are out there. Brent took it to a whole other level in that video saying it is OK to doctor cards as long as you can't detect it. I don't think anyone is arguing that an altered card should be marked on the flip. That much is obvious. If it is an undetectable alteration and someone is going to submit the card for grading are they always going to disclose it? Do they always disclose it now? If it is 'undetectable' and not disclosed now we have an altered card in a holder without any sort of designation. Brent knows this is already happening just like everyone else. He must also know the eventual outcome of him justifying this is more undetected doctored cards in holders.
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
Sorry if I have missed a "game changer" here. I would really like to know what the HUGE problem with PWCC is here?
Have you been following any of the threads over on BO pointing out the hundreds of doctored cards that PWCC has been selling from just Gary Moser alone? The guys investigating over there are at the point where they're showing proof that:
1. PWCC is purchasing certain cards with their own buyer's account
2. the cards are then getting cracked to go thru a complete workover that is much more than just a simple cleaning (ie...trimming/touch-up/removing large creases)
3. Then resubmit to hopefully slip by PSA
4. Relisted for sale by PWCC and in many cases has a HE/PQ sticker slapped on top of everything.
We're not seeing PWCC list cards as "authentic/altered" because everyone involved in this scheme is trying to slip these cards past PSA's graders for higher grades/more money in the end.
This isn't about PWCC policing sellers,it's about PWCC knowingly altering their own cards then trying to pawn them off as Supreme Quality or whatever gimmick they're using now.
The few guys that are doing all of the investigative legwork have been extremely thorough and have made sure that they back up every statement so this doesn't look like just a witch hunt. There's plenty of proof posted for all to see at this point.
Thanks for the information. I looked at some of the posts and at least now I am understanding the allegations. I am not sure if what I am seeing is proof, some of the scans are blurry and different sizes. Looks like a couple of cards might have gotten trimmed. I am also not an amateur investigator, so I can't be sure these are the same cards, but is is certainly suspicious.
Having worked in the printed circuit industry for 24 years, I can tell you that certain printing flaws will be reproduced over and over again, but there are some disturbing "coincidences" here.
Looks like the TPG's had better step up their game though.
This thread can stay open if people post useful information only.
Start another thread if needed; it’s like a PSA (public service announcement) for collectors.
I speak for myself (and hopefully others) with my sincere thanks to Todd for this (even if he chooses to shut it down) and I ask other posters to read the thread before adding new stuff.
TODD WAS KIND ENOUGH TO OFFER A WORTHWHILE UPDATE ALREADY.
FIND IT AND READ IT.
PLEASE.
(For attention, the caps, not yelling.)
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@MLBdays said: @erikthredd ....and PWCC was transparent correct? ...and the money buys the card in a free market with full disclosure....what else ya got?
Auction ended on May 9th and Brent's big Youtube "disclosure" was on May 19th. The was never any full disclosure on that auction while it was currently ongoing.
And what else have I got? Literally a list of hundreds upon hundreds of other PWCC cards showing before and after pics but you know where to find those.
This is the Mantle people have been discussing?
Is there a "before" picture?
Link would be appreciated.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@MLBdays said: @erikthredd ....and PWCC was transparent correct? ...and the money buys the card in a free market with full disclosure....what else ya got?
Auction ended on May 9th and Brent's big Youtube "disclosure" was on May 19th. The was never any full disclosure on that auction while it was currently ongoing.
And what else have I got? Literally a list of hundreds upon hundreds of other PWCC cards showing before and after pics but you know where to find those.
This is the Mantle people have been discussing?
Is there a "before" picture?
Link would be appreciated.
This is the thread with most of the picture comparisons, including for the Mantle, which started the thread.
@MLBdays said: @erikthredd ....and PWCC was transparent correct? ...and the money buys the card in a free market with full disclosure....what else ya got?
Auction ended on May 9th and Brent's big Youtube "disclosure" was on May 19th. The was never any full disclosure on that auction while it was currently ongoing.
And what else have I got? Literally a list of hundreds upon hundreds of other PWCC cards showing before and after pics but you know where to find those.
This is the Mantle people have been discussing?
Is there a "before" picture?
Link would be appreciated.
Page 1 of this very thread has a before pic and there is more info about this card over in the ‘52 Mantle PWCC auction thread in the baseball section on Blowout Cards.
@JoeBanzai said:
Now PWCC will be (?) listing cards slabbed as "authentic/altered" by a TPG and this is a huge problem? If a seller sends them an altered card that resides in a TPG holder with a numeric grade, they are not here to police that seller imo.
Actually that is the auction houses job according to the Feds. Any and all alterations must be disclosed to the public. That's one of the many reasons Bill Mastro went to jail.
OK, but if a card is authenticated by a TPG, wouldn't that be sufficient evidence? Do auction houses then have to do yet another examination? That would certainly either put them out of business or the cost would be passed along to the buyer, and would the seller then have to pay for yet another examination if the item was discovered to be altered?
Now if the allegations are true that PWCC is purchasing cards through another buyer and altering them, sending them in for grading and then selling the altered cards, of course they should go down in flames!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@krisd3279 said:
Have you actually watched the video that PWCC released? I think there is a big difference between knowing something is out there and trying to justify it. Two completely different things. I think most of us know these types of doctored cards are out there. Brent took it to a whole other level in that video saying it is OK to doctor cards as long as you can't detect it. I don't think anyone is arguing that an altered card should be marked on the flip. That much is obvious. If it is an undetectable alteration and someone is going to submit the card for grading are they always going to disclose it? Do they always disclose it now? If it is 'undetectable' and not disclosed now we have an altered card in a holder without any sort of designation. Brent knows this is already happening just like everyone else. He must also know the eventual outcome of him justifying this is more undetected doctored cards in holders.
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
Sorry if I have missed a "game changer" here. I would really like to know what the HUGE problem with PWCC is here?
Have you been following any of the threads over on BO pointing out the hundreds of doctored cards that PWCC has been selling from just Gary Moser alone? The guys investigating over there are at the point where they're showing proof that:
1. PWCC is purchasing certain cards with their own buyer's account
2. the cards are then getting cracked to go thru a complete workover that is much more than just a simple cleaning (ie...trimming/touch-up/removing large creases)
3. Then resubmit to hopefully slip by PSA
4. Relisted for sale by PWCC and in many cases has a HE/PQ sticker slapped on top of everything.
We're not seeing PWCC list cards as "authentic/altered" because everyone involved in this scheme is trying to slip these cards past PSA's graders for higher grades/more money in the end.
This isn't about PWCC policing sellers,it's about PWCC knowingly altering their own cards then trying to pawn them off as Supreme Quality or whatever gimmick they're using now.
The few guys that are doing all of the investigative legwork have been extremely thorough and have made sure that they back up every statement so this doesn't look like just a witch hunt. There's plenty of proof posted for all to see at this point.
Thanks for the information. I looked at some of the posts and at least now I am understanding the allegations. I am not sure if what I am seeing is proof, some of the scans are blurry and different sizes. Looks like a couple of cards might have gotten trimmed. I am also not an amateur investigator, so I can't be sure these are the same cards, but is is certainly suspicious.
Having worked in the printed circuit industry for 24 years, I can tell you that certain printing flaws will be reproduced over and over again, but there are some disturbing "coincidences" here.
Looks like the TPG's had better step up their game though.
This thread can stay open if people post useful information only.
Start another thread if needed; it’s like a PSA (public service announcement) for collectors.
I speak for myself (and hopefully others) with my sincere thanks to Todd for this (even if he chooses to shut it down) and I ask other posters to read the thread before adding new stuff.
TODD WAS KIND ENOUGH TO OFFER A WORTHWHILE UPDATE ALREADY.
FIND IT AND READ IT.
PLEASE.
(For attention, the caps, not yelling.)
?????
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@MLBdays said: @erikthredd PWCC disclosure: "Later this month we will publish our Marketplace Tenets which, among other things, touches on the differences between alteration and conservation. Until then, I will summarize why this card is still live in our auction.".......I thought the disclosure was made while it was a live auction...
Show me exactly where that is typed in the actual auction listing on ebay.
This thread is starting to pick up some steam and head in a negative direction. Let's please get away from the bickering with each other. I don't want to shut things down, but I will if they just turn ugly.
I was just texting with Steve Sloan. He hasn't yet made a statement because new information keeps coming to light. He is monitoring this thing closely and does not want to say something that later needs to be retracted because new information makes it no longer relevant. Again, I see where this can be frustrating in the interim, but I believe it to be the wise move.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
@MLBdays said: @erikthredd ....and PWCC was transparent correct? ...and the money buys the card in a free market with full disclosure....what else ya got?
Auction ended on May 9th and Brent's big Youtube "disclosure" was on May 19th. The was never any full disclosure on that auction while it was currently ongoing.
And what else have I got? Literally a list of hundreds upon hundreds of other PWCC cards showing before and after pics but you know where to find those.
This is the Mantle people have been discussing?
Is there a "before" picture?
Link would be appreciated.
This is the thread with most of the picture comparisons, including for the Mantle, which started the thread.
I can't tell if it's the same card. First image taken on the paper towel (or whatever) isn't the best, but the back scan corners look awfully bad and the little mark by the "E" in Mickey could be present om many of the cards? I am NOT an expert on this card.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@MLBdays said: @erikthredd ....and PWCC was transparent correct? ...and the money buys the card in a free market with full disclosure....what else ya got?
Auction ended on May 9th and Brent's big Youtube "disclosure" was on May 19th. The was never any full disclosure on that auction while it was currently ongoing.
And what else have I got? Literally a list of hundreds upon hundreds of other PWCC cards showing before and after pics but you know where to find those.
This is the Mantle people have been discussing?
Is there a "before" picture?
Link would be appreciated.
This is the thread with most of the picture comparisons, including for the Mantle, which started the thread.
I can't tell if it's the same card. First image taken on the paper towel (or whatever) isn't the best, but the back scan corners look awfully bad and the little mark by the "E" in Mickey could be present om many of the cards? I am NOT an expert on this card.
Read further. By page 3 or so there are better comparisons. It's the same card. Also, PWCC admitted it was the same card and attempted to explain it away, which is what started this thread, I believe.
@AFLfan said:
This thread is starting to pick up some steam and head in a negative direction. Let's please get away from the bickering with each other. I don't want to shut things down, but I will if they just turn ugly.
I was just texting with Steve Sloan. He hasn't yet made a statement because new information keeps coming to light. He is monitoring this thing closely and does not want to say something that later needs to be retracted because new information makes it no longer relevant. Again, I see where this can be frustrating in the interim, but I believe it to be the wise move.
Please let's try to keep this thread from being closed. This is some valuable information. I would like to learn more.
Let's act like adults guys!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
"Now if the allegations are true that PWCC is purchasing cards through another buyer and altering them, sending them in for grading and then selling the altered cards, of course they should go down in flames!
If "conservation" is not a problem for PSA or PWCC why not pop cards and conserve them and resubmit?
I am still waiting for exactly what/where it is said that "conservation" is not a problem. Sorry if I missed it!!!!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@AFLfan said:
This thread is starting to pick up some steam and head in a negative direction. Let's please get away from the bickering with each other. I don't want to shut things down, but I will if they just turn ugly.
I was just texting with Steve Sloan. He hasn't yet made a statement because new information keeps coming to light. He is monitoring this thing closely and does not want to say something that later needs to be retracted because new information makes it no longer relevant. Again, I see where this can be frustrating in the interim, but I believe it to be the wise move.
Please let's try to keep this thread from being closed. This is some valuable information. I would like to learn more.
Let's act like adults guys!
Yes. Let’s.
To answer the ‘????’ for you (because I like you, your cards and the PMs) we’ve exchanged, I’ll say this, @JoeBanzai:
It seems you are a little late to the party, that’s all. Many of the incredulous questions you (and all of us are asking) have been sort of asked and answered now here and elsewhere. So I welcome some PM exchange to catch you up to speed and see, in general, how ya been.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.
There is a thread on Blowout attempting to do this, at least for one of the card doctors.
It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.
There is a thread on Blowout attempting to do this, at least for one of the card doctors.
@MLBdays said: @JoeBanzai ...lol ...indeed ... ITs at the top of this thread where PWCC distinguishes between "conservation" and "alteration".... they clearly condone it.
According to PSA's own grading standards, these are not considered "conservation" but altered and should not be graded anything other than Authentic. That is the issue, what Bret is stating is that they want PSA to change their standards to allow "conservation" and actually stated they have had conversations with the TPG's about this and had "positive" results. However, PSA has not stated anything about changing their standards
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
PWCC just released this statement regarding certain trimmed cards over on the BO forum: PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns
We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.
We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.
It's very disconcerting, very frustrating. I'm glad you are keeping us informed, as you can Todd. Nothing can change the past, however, Mr. Sloan has your confidence, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to see what the gentleman has to say once his investigation is over. But this takes a lot of wind out of a lot of people's sails. Very unfortunate.
@JoeBanzai
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
I don't believe he actually says it's ok to doctor cards.
At around the 10:40 mark of the interview, he talks about what happens based on whether or not you leave evidence of erasing a pencil mark.
@JoeBanzai said:
Now PWCC will be (?) listing cards slabbed as "authentic/altered" by a TPG and this is a huge problem? If a seller sends them an altered card that resides in a TPG holder with a numeric grade, they are not here to police that seller imo.
Actually that is the auction houses job according to the Feds. Any and all alterations must be disclosed to the public. That's one of the many reasons Bill Mastro went to jail.
OK, but if a card is authenticated by a TPG, wouldn't that be sufficient evidence? Do auction houses then have to do yet another examination? That would certainly either put them out of business or the cost would be passed along to the buyer, and would the seller then have to pay for yet another examination if the item was discovered to be altered?
Now if the allegations are true that PWCC is purchasing cards through another buyer and altering them, sending them in for grading and then selling the altered cards, of course they should go down in flames!
PWCC is already doing another examination. It's called eye appeal review with a sticker placed on the cards to denote the additional designation. And as I understand it's a no additional cost review. If they can review the 'superior appeal' cards at no cost then why can't they denote the inferior cards at no cost?
@JoeBanzai
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
I don't believe he actually says it's ok to doctor cards.
At around the 10:40 mark of the interview, he talks about what happens based on whether or not you leave evidence of erasing a pencil mark.
Well, thank you very much! I wasn't going to listen to that again just to make sure. Some posters were pointing to this video as some kind of proof that they are ok with conservation. I did not see that. One thing I did hear was they block people who retract their bids. If that's true GOOD!
@JoeBanzai said:
Now PWCC will be (?) listing cards slabbed as "authentic/altered" by a TPG and this is a huge problem? If a seller sends them an altered card that resides in a TPG holder with a numeric grade, they are not here to police that seller imo.
Actually that is the auction houses job according to the Feds. Any and all alterations must be disclosed to the public. That's one of the many reasons Bill Mastro went to jail.
OK, but if a card is authenticated by a TPG, wouldn't that be sufficient evidence? Do auction houses then have to do yet another examination? That would certainly either put them out of business or the cost would be passed along to the buyer, and would the seller then have to pay for yet another examination if the item was discovered to be altered?
Now if the allegations are true that PWCC is purchasing cards through another buyer and altering them, sending them in for grading and then selling the altered cards, of course they should go down in flames!
PWCC is already doing another examination. It's called eye appeal review with a sticker placed on the cards to denote the additional designation. And as I understand it's a no additional cost review. If they can review the 'superior appeal' cards at no cost then why can't they denote the inferior cards at no cost?
Again with the stckers, nothing wrong with pointing out if a card has attributes they want to showcase to a potential bidder. No one ever points out the negative aspects of a card they are trying to sell in my experience.
Have you ever read through an auction catalog? Just about every card has some kind of mention in the description about how "nice it is for the grade".
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
I don't believe he actually says it's ok to doctor cards.
At around the 10:40 mark of the interview, he talks about what happens based on whether or not you leave evidence of erasing a pencil mark.
Well, thank you very much! I wasn't going to listen to that again just to make sure. Some posters were pointing to this video as some kind of proof that they are ok with conservation. I did not see that. One thing I did hear was they block people who retract their bids. If that's true GOOD!
@JoeBanzai said:
Now PWCC will be (?) listing cards slabbed as "authentic/altered" by a TPG and this is a huge problem? If a seller sends them an altered card that resides in a TPG holder with a numeric grade, they are not here to police that seller imo.
Actually that is the auction houses job according to the Feds. Any and all alterations must be disclosed to the public.
Brent clearly states in the interview that altering a card where it cannot be detected is considered conservation and that if it cannot be detected (alteration) it should be considered ok. Erasing a pencil mark is also ok, and that this happens with fine art and such. Preserving the Declaration of Independence is one thing. Doing it to a card, getting it certified and graded when you know it has been altered, and adding a high end sticker on it and selling for a big profit does not need to be explained as wrong. Can’t defend the indefensible.
“Anything that has ever been done to a card makes it altered and that is just false. Conservation has been a part of this market since the very beginning, and we are tired of this.” I would prefer to let PSA define what is altered and what is not as well as decide the grades and not random HE, A, S.... stickers. Still a lot of good people in this market and hobby, and those are the ones I will still associate with and buy from just like I have done in the past.
While this is not the case, I’d be pretty upset if I had consigned my own legitimate cards to PWCC right now. I mean, it’s not going to hurt the prices all the way but the reaction and sentiment across the ‘in the know’ boards is not good. I don’t follow them too often because I don’t collect that way BUT I’ll track a little closer on the next few...
Also, I do wonder where my cards that I had consigned and sold and gotten paid for quickly and without issue (all at prices I was quite happy with) are now. I mean it wasn’t a fortune or anything, it was once, and I did it as an experiment to see if I was legitimate and I came away happy and impressed.
If you’re out there and in this position through no fault of your own, perhaps you should mention it in BST section(s) to help yourself.
For those of you in this position, I hope it goes well, anyway, as I know ‘unconsigning’ is not really a possibility as part of terms.
Good luck
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Brent clearly states in the interview that altering a card where it cannot be detected is considered conservation and that if it cannot be detected (alteration) it should be considered ok. Erasing a pencil mark is also ok, and that this happens with fine art and such. Preserving the Declaration of Independence is one thing. Doing it to a card, getting it certified and graded when you know it has been altered, and adding a high end sticker on it and selling for a big profit does not need to be explained as wrong. Can’t defend the indefensible.
“Anything that has ever been done to a card makes it altered and that is just false. Conservation has been a part of this market since the very beginning, and we are tired of this.” I would prefer to let PSA define what is altered and what is not as well as decide the grades and not random HE, A, S.... stickers. Still a lot of good people in this market and hobby, and those are the ones I will still associate with and buy from just like I have done in the past.
KC
IMO the overall hobby stands behind the following:
Conservation involves things that are done to prevent further deterioration or degradation of a card.
Alteration involves things that are done to hide, mask or eliminate deterioration or degradation that already occurred.
True “rarities” are the cards that survived with minimal deterioration/degradation AND that also came from the factory with optimal desired characteristics (centering, focus, registration, etc). That is what makes them rarer and more valuable than their mass-produced counterparts.
Anyone trying to change a card from a lesser example to a superior one, and then trying to pass it off as “superior without assistance” is perpetuating a fraud and should be held accountable for doing so.
@JoeBanzai
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
I don't believe he actually says it's ok to doctor cards.
At around the 10:40 mark of the interview, he talks about what happens based on whether or not you leave evidence of erasing a pencil mark.
Well, thank you very much! I wasn't going to listen to that again just to make sure. Some posters were pointing to this video as some kind of proof that they are ok with conservation. I did not see that. One thing I did hear was they block people who retract their bids. If that's true GOOD!
@JoeBanzai said:
Now PWCC will be (?) listing cards slabbed as "authentic/altered" by a TPG and this is a huge problem? If a seller sends them an altered card that resides in a TPG holder with a numeric grade, they are not here to police that seller imo.
Actually that is the auction houses job according to the Feds. Any and all alterations must be disclosed to the public. That's one of the many reasons Bill Mastro went to jail.
OK, but if a card is authenticated by a TPG, wouldn't that be sufficient evidence? Do auction houses then have to do yet another examination? That would certainly either put them out of business or the cost would be passed along to the buyer, and would the seller then have to pay for yet another examination if the item was discovered to be altered?
Now if the allegations are true that PWCC is purchasing cards through another buyer and altering them, sending them in for grading and then selling the altered cards, of course they should go down in flames!
PWCC is already doing another examination. It's called eye appeal review with a sticker placed on the cards to denote the additional designation. And as I understand it's a no additional cost review. If they can review the 'superior appeal' cards at no cost then why can't they denote the inferior cards at no cost?
Again with the stckers, nothing wrong with pointing out if a card has attributes they want to showcase to a potential bidder. No one ever points out the negative aspects of a card they are trying to sell in my experience.
Have you ever read through an auction catalog? Just about every card has some kind of mention in the description about how "nice it is for the grade".
If you haven’t read the whole PWCC mantle thread on blowout you should hold off on giving your opinion on HE stickers.
@krisd3279 said:
Have you actually watched the video that PWCC released? I think there is a big difference between knowing something is out there and trying to justify it. Two completely different things. I think most of us know these types of doctored cards are out there. Brent took it to a whole other level in that video saying it is OK to doctor cards as long as you can't detect it. I don't think anyone is arguing that an altered card should be marked on the flip. That much is obvious. If it is an undetectable alteration and someone is going to submit the card for grading are they always going to disclose it? Do they always disclose it now? If it is 'undetectable' and not disclosed now we have an altered card in a holder without any sort of designation. Brent knows this is already happening just like everyone else. He must also know the eventual outcome of him justifying this is more undetected doctored cards in holders.
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
Sorry. I was just trying to summarize. What he really says is it's OK to doctor cards as long as you are very good at it and nobody can detect it, that is called 'conservation'. He also says if you aren't very good at it and you can detect it that is 'alteration'. The part where he describes this starts around 4:40.
I just saw the card doctor list on another site. I checked my ebay history and besides PWCC, I haven't bought a card directly from the known scammers. HOWEVER I have sold quite about 25 cards to a few of them. Nothing expensive, all less than $50. Moser did contact me 3 years ago about a few PSA 7 bowman football rookies I had on a BIN.
I was about to consign a bunch of boxes to PWCC in the fall. They are mostly in the $500 range, but one of them is around $5000. I'm not sure what to do now.
@krisd3279 said:
Have you actually watched the video that PWCC released? I think there is a big difference between knowing something is out there and trying to justify it. Two completely different things. I think most of us know these types of doctored cards are out there. Brent took it to a whole other level in that video saying it is OK to doctor cards as long as you can't detect it. I don't think anyone is arguing that an altered card should be marked on the flip. That much is obvious. If it is an undetectable alteration and someone is going to submit the card for grading are they always going to disclose it? Do they always disclose it now? If it is 'undetectable' and not disclosed now we have an altered card in a holder without any sort of designation. Brent knows this is already happening just like everyone else. He must also know the eventual outcome of him justifying this is more undetected doctored cards in holders.
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
Sorry. I was just trying to summarize. What he really says is it's OK to doctor cards as long as you are very good at it and nobody can detect it, that is called 'conservation'. He also says if you aren't very good at it and you can detect it that is 'alteration'. The part where he describes this starts around 4:40.
He's not talking about conservation here.
I think some of the "summarizing" being done is people hearing things that aren't actually being said!?!?!?!?
It is looking pretty bad for PWCC right now. I am happy that I haven't bought cards from them, or if I did not many or for a long time.
"What he really says is it's OK to doctor cards as long as you are very good at it and nobody can detect it."
We should all be aware that cards "slip through the cracks" at TPG's, that doesn't mean we actually condone altering cards........does it?> @rcmb3220 said:
@JoeBanzai
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
I don't believe he actually says it's ok to doctor cards.
At around the 10:40 mark of the interview, he talks about what happens based on whether or not you leave evidence of erasing a pencil mark.
Well, thank you very much! I wasn't going to listen to that again just to make sure. Some posters were pointing to this video as some kind of proof that they are ok with conservation. I did not see that. One thing I did hear was they block people who retract their bids. If that's true GOOD!
@JoeBanzai said:
Now PWCC will be (?) listing cards slabbed as "authentic/altered" by a TPG and this is a huge problem? If a seller sends them an altered card that resides in a TPG holder with a numeric grade, they are not here to police that seller imo.
Actually that is the auction houses job according to the Feds. Any and all alterations must be disclosed to the public. That's one of the many reasons Bill Mastro went to jail.
OK, but if a card is authenticated by a TPG, wouldn't that be sufficient evidence? Do auction houses then have to do yet another examination? That would certainly either put them out of business or the cost would be passed along to the buyer, and would the seller then have to pay for yet another examination if the item was discovered to be altered?
Now if the allegations are true that PWCC is purchasing cards through another buyer and altering them, sending them in for grading and then selling the altered cards, of course they should go down in flames!
PWCC is already doing another examination. It's called eye appeal review with a sticker placed on the cards to denote the additional designation. And as I understand it's a no additional cost review. If they can review the 'superior appeal' cards at no cost then why can't they denote the inferior cards at no cost?
Again with the stckers, nothing wrong with pointing out if a card has attributes they want to showcase to a potential bidder. No one ever points out the negative aspects of a card they are trying to sell in my experience.
Have you ever read through an auction catalog? Just about every card has some kind of mention in the description about how "nice it is for the grade".
If you haven’t read the whole PWCC mantle thread on blowout you should hold off on giving your opinion on HE stickers.
I am not going to read the entire thread. I have read some of it and a LOT of people don't agree. If you want to cut and paste a particular quote that might sway me, I'll look at it with an open mind.
My general opinion is that you can do or say what you want (within reason) to complain/object about the given grade of the item your selling. As a buyer, you need to make the decision for yourself. If you are so easily swayed by a sticker, or by the word "BLAZER" (old timers.......you know!) there really is no hope for you.
If someone indicates their card has certain attributes that make it strong for the grade, I'll take a look, and if I agree, great, if not, I ignore the hype, and just bid what I think it's worth.
On a different subject, I used to get VERY upset over shill bidding too. I decided to just offer what I though an item was worth TO ME and move on. If I get it, great, if not, another will probably come along in time. If you just HAVE to have a certain item and are willing to pay WAY more than it's worth, I don't have a lot of sympathy for you.
I am VERY thankful to the people who have done some very good detective work here. The more information that is revealed the better. Everyone should try to educate themselves and be skeptical of sales claims.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
As for those who have followed this thread from the beginning and were wondering, I just wanted to check back in to say PWCC did not force me to pay for a $2800 "Moser" card with my funds generated with PWCC consignment auctions. I greatly appreciate that.
This thread is a first for me, in that I've never had a post deleted on the CU forum before. The deleted post was about my realization that I bought one of these cards from PWCC that we are all talking about. I am thankful I wasn't banned, I suppose.
I stress about the merits of half grade bumps for my top end cards, or worry about getting the grader of death on my orders. I am proud of the cards I pulled from packs that become PSA 8's, 9's, or 10's. I like buying a new gem that has survived over decades in beautiful condition. The thing that holds it all together for me is the belief that I am submitting my cards and buying my PSA cards in accordance to the PSA grading guidelines. https://psacard.com/Resources/gradingstandards#cards
Brent clearly states in the interview that altering a card where it cannot be detected is considered conservation and that if it cannot be detected (alteration) it should be considered ok. Erasing a pencil mark is also ok, and that this happens with fine art and such. Preserving the Declaration of Independence is one thing. Doing it to a card, getting it certified and graded when you know it has been altered, and adding a high end sticker on it and selling for a big profit does not need to be explained as wrong. Can’t defend the indefensible.
“Anything that has ever been done to a card makes it altered and that is just false. Conservation has been a part of this market since the very beginning, and we are tired of this.” I would prefer to let PSA define what is altered and what is not as well as decide the grades and not random HE, A, S.... stickers. Still a lot of good people in this market and hobby, and those are the ones I will still associate with and buy from just like I have done in the past.
KC
IMO the overall hobby stands behind the following:
Conservation involves things that are done to prevent further deterioration or degradation of a card.
Alteration involves things that are done to hide, mask or eliminate deterioration or degradation that already occurred.
True “rarities” are the cards that survived with minimal deterioration/degradation AND that also came from the factory with optimal desired characteristics (centering, focus, registration, etc). That is what makes them rarer and more valuable than their mass-produced counterparts.
Anyone trying to change a card from a lesser example to a superior one, and then trying to pass it off as “superior without assistance” is perpetuating a fraud and should be held accountable for doing so.
But no one is passing it as superior without assistance...it does no say PSA 8 without assistance?
Brent clearly states in the interview that altering a card where it cannot be detected is considered conservation and that if it cannot be detected (alteration) it should be considered ok. Erasing a pencil mark is also ok, and that this happens with fine art and such. Preserving the Declaration of Independence is one thing. Doing it to a card, getting it certified and graded when you know it has been altered, and adding a high end sticker on it and selling for a big profit does not need to be explained as wrong. Can’t defend the indefensible.
“Anything that has ever been done to a card makes it altered and that is just false. Conservation has been a part of this market since the very beginning, and we are tired of this.” I would prefer to let PSA define what is altered and what is not as well as decide the grades and not random HE, A, S.... stickers. Still a lot of good people in this market and hobby, and those are the ones I will still associate with and buy from just like I have done in the past.
KC
IMO the overall hobby stands behind the following:
Conservation involves things that are done to prevent further deterioration or degradation of a card.
Alteration involves things that are done to hide, mask or eliminate deterioration or degradation that already occurred.
True “rarities” are the cards that survived with minimal deterioration/degradation AND that also came from the factory with optimal desired characteristics (centering, focus, registration, etc). That is what makes them rarer and more valuable than their mass-produced counterparts.
Anyone trying to change a card from a lesser example to a superior one, and then trying to pass it off as “superior without assistance” is perpetuating a fraud and should be held accountable for doing so.
But no one is passing it as superior without assistance...it does no say PSA 8 without assistance?
Isn’t that the IMPLICIT understanding of what one of the key values that the TPGs service is providing?
Comments
You are missing a lot, too much to do justice in one post here. No one is concerned that PWCC would sell cards in authentic/altered slabs. That would actually be the appropriate thing to do. I would recommend reading all of the threads on the Blowout forum. Go ahead and start with the link on the previous page of this thread. The title of that new thread on Blowout is:
Brent Huigens & PWCC Used pwcc_auctions ID to Buy Cards for Gary Moser to Trim/Alter
In brief, the latest allegation is that PWCC bought cards itself, had them altered by a known card doctor, got them through PSA with a number grade, and then sold them for a profit. While in at least one instance, allegedly putting their "high-end" sticker on it. That's a bit concerning, no?
It is almost indisputable at this point that PWCC has been selling cards for years that received number grades from PSA but that were in fact altered. The evidence strongly suggests that they knew they were doing so the whole time. Many have concluded that they did so with intention and were in on it from the start. Regardless, there is visual before and after evidence on the blowout threads that is quite compelling that PSA whiffed on card after card and that this isn't just a matter of a few "getting by the goalie" or whatever.
It always, unfortunately comes back to money, and everyone's own self interests. The vast majority of the hobby decided a long time ago that sports cards that were "pure" (unaltered in anyway) were harder to come by, more desirable to many ... and therefore worth more money. That general rule of thumb holds true for most collectibles. The problem is, the first "card collectors" didn't think that way at all. They glued their cards into scrapbooks, punched holes in them, stamped or wrote their names on them, flipped them with friends, put them in their bike spokes, and stored them in boxes without any thought at all to their condition. One card wasn't worth any more (or less) than any other card.
Then one day, a long time ago ... little Johnny decided that his friend Billy needed to trade him two cards for his one card. He stuck to his guns and eventually Billy gave in, giving up 2 cards for a single card.
That historical transaction started the 'supply and demand' side of the hobby that continues to drive it today.
Over time, collectors (and sellers) have made different choices, based on their own self interests, preferences... or greed. Many Pre-war & tobacco guys decided that since so many of the older cards were glued into scrap books, or written on .. that minor erasing & soaking were OK to help remove scrap or pencil marks. Many new card collectors are fine with buffing out scratches on their chrome cards. Some are OK with using chemicals that fill in scratch marks and some are not. Some guys are purists that want nothing done to their cards, and some guys could care less if their cards are trimmed or completely rebuilt. That's the problem ... what you think is OK may not be what I think is OK .. and if you sell me a card, without disclosure I may feel cheated. It's the same thing with describing raw card conditions, if you tell me it's NM and I think it looks EX we're going to be at an impasse.
Grading and authentication were supposed to help resolve those issues, but collectors still argue over graded card conditions, and as some collectors are just now finding out ... they can't catch all of the doctored cards. It's gotten better, and most people probably think that grading has helped the hobby evolve and thrive. However, at the same time ... it's created more greed, it's drastically altered the economics of collecting, and it's also helped to shield & give credibility to the doctored cards that get past the gate keepers.
Card doctors, thieves, con-artists and corruption have been involved in our hobby for many decades. Ever since little Johnny secretly wiped the dirt stain off his card, before he traded it to Billy.
It's not going to go away and the TPG's will never be 100% perfect. Each collector has to decide for themselves what amount of possible deception / corruption they can tolerate ... and still enjoy collecting.
Have you been following any of the threads over on BO pointing out the hundreds of doctored cards that PWCC has been selling from just Gary Moser alone? The guys investigating over there are at the point where they're showing proof that:
1. PWCC is purchasing certain cards with their own buyer's account
2. the cards are then getting cracked to go thru a complete workover that is much more than just a simple cleaning (ie...trimming/touch-up/removing large creases)
3. Then resubmit to hopefully slip by PSA
4. Relisted for sale by PWCC and in many cases has a HE/PQ sticker slapped on top of everything.
We're not seeing PWCC list cards as "authentic/altered" because everyone involved in this scheme is trying to slip these cards past PSA's graders for higher grades/more money in the end.
This isn't about PWCC policing sellers,it's about PWCC knowingly altering their own cards then trying to pawn them off as Supreme Quality or whatever gimmick they're using now.
The few guys that are doing all of the investigative legwork have been extremely thorough and have made sure that they back up every statement so this doesn't look like just a witch hunt. There's plenty of proof posted for all to see at this point.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
so what is next for PWCC? I assume someone would have to file a criminal complaint to kick off a law enforcement investigation. If someone was defrauded, they could proceed with a civil lawsuit. Seems too big to be just left alone in either realm.
and why was the OP banned?
I could be wrong but I think he was banned around the same time this thread got posted by our new mod Todd.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1020328/the-use-of-alts#latest
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Actually that is the auction houses job according to the Feds. Any and all alterations must be disclosed to the public. That's one of the many reasons Bill Mastro went to jail.
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
Then all of us "small" stakeholders should be contacting the reputable big hobby stakeholders and requesting that they release a statement and initiate actions, either separately or collaboratively, to restore some confidence to the hobby. Such a statement would most impactful if it said something to the effect that:
They are taking these allegations seriously and are actively looking into them
If there are findings that any of the allegations are indeed true they are committed to taking actions in an effort to prevent further occurrences of such instances from being possible
If they have not already done so, they will begin efforts in earnest to solicit cooperation from the proper legal authorities in hopes of getting their assistance to investigate any of these allegations that, if true, would be violations of federal, state of local fraud statutes or any other laws
They will do their best to provide timely and regular updates to the hobby stakeholders through future public statements to keep everyone aware of the findings, developments and progress being made
Think of the positive impact that such a collaborative and cooperative joint statement and effort by the major TPGs, big auction houses, etc. would have right now in stabilizing things and coordinating the currently scattered and largely "unofficial" efforts to actually deal with these issues that are clearly very troubling and concerning to the stakeholders in the hobby.
It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.
Dave
This just didn't happen overnight or on a misguided $ whim.
It's way past "speculation" on a bunch of $150-200 PSA 1.5's when on page one of this very thread there is a Mantle 52 Topps PSA 4.5 auctioned off by PWCC that had the very same work done as all of those "$150-200 PSA 1.5's" yet it sold for $58,847.47.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I took 2 blows to the ribs from my wife while she was asleep because of Jimmy Arms. It cost her $100. PWCC ain't gettin' my rib money.
Just watched the entire video. Where does he say "it's OK" to doctor cards? I was having trouble understanding some of Brent's responses. The only thing I saw was some discussion about a Michael Jordan card and he said he disagreed with the "altered" grade. I didn't see/hear anything else.
PLEASE give me the part of the interview where he says this. That was 44 minutes of my day I won't get back.
Thanks for the information. I looked at some of the posts and at least now I am understanding the allegations. I am not sure if what I am seeing is proof, some of the scans are blurry and different sizes. Looks like a couple of cards might have gotten trimmed. I am also not an amateur investigator, so I can't be sure these are the same cards, but is is certainly suspicious.
Having worked in the printed circuit industry for 24 years, I can tell you that certain printing flaws will be reproduced over and over again, but there are some disturbing "coincidences" here.
Looks like the TPG's had better step up their game though.
There is a thread on Blowout attempting to do this, at least for one of the card doctors.
https://blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1296884
Though obviously a comprehensive list published by PSA using what they know would be much, much better.
Show me exactly where PWCC was transparent in this auction listing that it had been worked on.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-311-PSA-4-5-VGEX-PWCC-E/352652483287?hash=item521bb9dad7:g:wysAAOSw2x9cx3kQ
Auction ended on May 9th and Brent's big Youtube "disclosure" was on May 19th. The was never any full disclosure on that auction while it was currently ongoing.
And what else have I got? Literally a list of hundreds upon hundreds of other PWCC cards showing before and after pics but you know where to find those.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
This thread can stay open if people post useful information only.
Start another thread if needed; it’s like a PSA (public service announcement) for collectors.
I speak for myself (and hopefully others) with my sincere thanks to Todd for this (even if he chooses to shut it down) and I ask other posters to read the thread before adding new stuff.
TODD WAS KIND ENOUGH TO OFFER A WORTHWHILE UPDATE ALREADY.
FIND IT AND READ IT.
PLEASE.
(For attention, the caps, not yelling.)
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
This is the Mantle people have been discussing?
Is there a "before" picture?
Link would be appreciated.
This is the thread with most of the picture comparisons, including for the Mantle, which started the thread.
https://blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614
Page 1 of this very thread has a before pic and there is more info about this card over in the ‘52 Mantle PWCC auction thread in the baseball section on Blowout Cards.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
OK, but if a card is authenticated by a TPG, wouldn't that be sufficient evidence? Do auction houses then have to do yet another examination? That would certainly either put them out of business or the cost would be passed along to the buyer, and would the seller then have to pay for yet another examination if the item was discovered to be altered?
Now if the allegations are true that PWCC is purchasing cards through another buyer and altering them, sending them in for grading and then selling the altered cards, of course they should go down in flames!
?????
Show me exactly where that is typed in the actual auction listing on ebay.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
This thread is starting to pick up some steam and head in a negative direction. Let's please get away from the bickering with each other. I don't want to shut things down, but I will if they just turn ugly.
I was just texting with Steve Sloan. He hasn't yet made a statement because new information keeps coming to light. He is monitoring this thing closely and does not want to say something that later needs to be retracted because new information makes it no longer relevant. Again, I see where this can be frustrating in the interim, but I believe it to be the wise move.
PWCC ain't getting my rib money.
I earned that $100.00
Thanks.
I can't tell if it's the same card. First image taken on the paper towel (or whatever) isn't the best, but the back scan corners look awfully bad and the little mark by the "E" in Mickey could be present om many of the cards? I am NOT an expert on this card.
Read further. By page 3 or so there are better comparisons. It's the same card. Also, PWCC admitted it was the same card and attempted to explain it away, which is what started this thread, I believe.
@MLBdays we can agree to disagree here. IMHO they're just way beyond the getting the benefit of the doubt stage in this whole mess.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Please let's try to keep this thread from being closed. This is some valuable information. I would like to learn more.
Let's act like adults guys!
I am still waiting for exactly what/where it is said that "conservation" is not a problem. Sorry if I missed it!!!!
I hope this thread stays up. I have spent much of a beautiful day in front of the computer.
I'll check back later.
Yes. Let’s.
To answer the ‘????’ for you (because I like you, your cards and the PMs) we’ve exchanged, I’ll say this, @JoeBanzai:
It seems you are a little late to the party, that’s all. Many of the incredulous questions you (and all of us are asking) have been sort of asked and answered now here and elsewhere. So I welcome some PM exchange to catch you up to speed and see, in general, how ya been.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
+1.
Dave
According to PSA's own grading standards, these are not considered "conservation" but altered and should not be graded anything other than Authentic. That is the issue, what Bret is stating is that they want PSA to change their standards to allow "conservation" and actually stated they have had conversations with the TPG's about this and had "positive" results. However, PSA has not stated anything about changing their standards
PWCC just released this statement regarding certain trimmed cards over on the BO forum:
PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns
We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.
We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
It's very disconcerting, very frustrating. I'm glad you are keeping us informed, as you can Todd. Nothing can change the past, however, Mr. Sloan has your confidence, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to see what the gentleman has to say once his investigation is over. But this takes a lot of wind out of a lot of people's sails. Very unfortunate.
Steve
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
I don't believe he actually says it's ok to doctor cards.
At around the 10:40 mark of the interview, he talks about what happens based on whether or not you leave evidence of erasing a pencil mark.
PWCC is already doing another examination. It's called eye appeal review with a sticker placed on the cards to denote the additional designation. And as I understand it's a no additional cost review. If they can review the 'superior appeal' cards at no cost then why can't they denote the inferior cards at no cost?
https://pwccmarketplace.com/eye-appeal-faq#faq-2
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
Well, thank you very much! I wasn't going to listen to that again just to make sure. Some posters were pointing to this video as some kind of proof that they are ok with conservation. I did not see that. One thing I did hear was they block people who retract their bids. If that's true GOOD!
Again with the stckers, nothing wrong with pointing out if a card has attributes they want to showcase to a potential bidder. No one ever points out the negative aspects of a card they are trying to sell in my experience.
Have you ever read through an auction catalog? Just about every card has some kind of mention in the description about how "nice it is for the grade".
Joe would you consider it an issue if an auction house bought a card, altered it, had it regraded and then put a HE sticker on it?
That question really does not deserve to be answered.
Brent clearly states in the interview that altering a card where it cannot be detected is considered conservation and that if it cannot be detected (alteration) it should be considered ok. Erasing a pencil mark is also ok, and that this happens with fine art and such. Preserving the Declaration of Independence is one thing. Doing it to a card, getting it certified and graded when you know it has been altered, and adding a high end sticker on it and selling for a big profit does not need to be explained as wrong. Can’t defend the indefensible.
“Anything that has ever been done to a card makes it altered and that is just false. Conservation has been a part of this market since the very beginning, and we are tired of this.” I would prefer to let PSA define what is altered and what is not as well as decide the grades and not random HE, A, S.... stickers. Still a lot of good people in this market and hobby, and those are the ones I will still associate with and buy from just like I have done in the past.
KC
Just want to toss something out there:
While this is not the case, I’d be pretty upset if I had consigned my own legitimate cards to PWCC right now. I mean, it’s not going to hurt the prices all the way but the reaction and sentiment across the ‘in the know’ boards is not good. I don’t follow them too often because I don’t collect that way BUT I’ll track a little closer on the next few...
Also, I do wonder where my cards that I had consigned and sold and gotten paid for quickly and without issue (all at prices I was quite happy with) are now. I mean it wasn’t a fortune or anything, it was once, and I did it as an experiment to see if I was legitimate and I came away happy and impressed.
If you’re out there and in this position through no fault of your own, perhaps you should mention it in BST section(s) to help yourself.
For those of you in this position, I hope it goes well, anyway, as I know ‘unconsigning’ is not really a possibility as part of terms.
Good luck
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
IMO the overall hobby stands behind the following:
Conservation involves things that are done to prevent further deterioration or degradation of a card.
Alteration involves things that are done to hide, mask or eliminate deterioration or degradation that already occurred.
True “rarities” are the cards that survived with minimal deterioration/degradation AND that also came from the factory with optimal desired characteristics (centering, focus, registration, etc). That is what makes them rarer and more valuable than their mass-produced counterparts.
Anyone trying to change a card from a lesser example to a superior one, and then trying to pass it off as “superior without assistance” is perpetuating a fraud and should be held accountable for doing so.
Dave
If you haven’t read the whole PWCC mantle thread on blowout you should hold off on giving your opinion on HE stickers.
Sorry. I was just trying to summarize. What he really says is it's OK to doctor cards as long as you are very good at it and nobody can detect it, that is called 'conservation'. He also says if you aren't very good at it and you can detect it that is 'alteration'. The part where he describes this starts around 4:40.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
I just saw the card doctor list on another site. I checked my ebay history and besides PWCC, I haven't bought a card directly from the known scammers. HOWEVER I have sold quite about 25 cards to a few of them. Nothing expensive, all less than $50. Moser did contact me 3 years ago about a few PSA 7 bowman football rookies I had on a BIN.
I was about to consign a bunch of boxes to PWCC in the fall. They are mostly in the $500 range, but one of them is around $5000. I'm not sure what to do now.
He's not talking about conservation here.
I think some of the "summarizing" being done is people hearing things that aren't actually being said!?!?!?!?
It is looking pretty bad for PWCC right now. I am happy that I haven't bought cards from them, or if I did not many or for a long time.
"What he really says is it's OK to doctor cards as long as you are very good at it and nobody can detect it."
We should all be aware that cards "slip through the cracks" at TPG's, that doesn't mean we actually condone altering cards........does it?> @rcmb3220 said:
I am not going to read the entire thread. I have read some of it and a LOT of people don't agree. If you want to cut and paste a particular quote that might sway me, I'll look at it with an open mind.
My general opinion is that you can do or say what you want (within reason) to complain/object about the given grade of the item your selling. As a buyer, you need to make the decision for yourself. If you are so easily swayed by a sticker, or by the word "BLAZER" (old timers.......you know!) there really is no hope for you.
If someone indicates their card has certain attributes that make it strong for the grade, I'll take a look, and if I agree, great, if not, I ignore the hype, and just bid what I think it's worth.
On a different subject, I used to get VERY upset over shill bidding too. I decided to just offer what I though an item was worth TO ME and move on. If I get it, great, if not, another will probably come along in time. If you just HAVE to have a certain item and are willing to pay WAY more than it's worth, I don't have a lot of sympathy for you.
I am VERY thankful to the people who have done some very good detective work here. The more information that is revealed the better. Everyone should try to educate themselves and be skeptical of sales claims.
As for those who have followed this thread from the beginning and were wondering, I just wanted to check back in to say PWCC did not force me to pay for a $2800 "Moser" card with my funds generated with PWCC consignment auctions. I greatly appreciate that.
This thread is a first for me, in that I've never had a post deleted on the CU forum before. The deleted post was about my realization that I bought one of these cards from PWCC that we are all talking about. I am thankful I wasn't banned, I suppose.
I stress about the merits of half grade bumps for my top end cards, or worry about getting the grader of death on my orders. I am proud of the cards I pulled from packs that become PSA 8's, 9's, or 10's. I like buying a new gem that has survived over decades in beautiful condition. The thing that holds it all together for me is the belief that I am submitting my cards and buying my PSA cards in accordance to the PSA grading guidelines. https://psacard.com/Resources/gradingstandards#cards
-Nathanael
But no one is passing it as superior without assistance...it does no say PSA 8 without assistance?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Isn’t that the IMPLICIT understanding of what one of the key values that the TPGs service is providing?
Dave