I wonder if Joe is willing to “Take a Hack” at this topic. I’d like to know his opinion and take on these matters. Seems as if more people are/will be getting cheated
I'm keeping an eye on things. Just keep it civil. As long as everyone stays away from name-calling, wild threats and outlandish conspiracy theories, things should be ok. But if it goes downhill, then I may have to reconsider.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
For 90% of my stuff, I submitted it and I still have and I don’t mess with my stuff so I have pretty great peace of mind. But I do have some rational thoughts on the subject.
Well, all these cards that have been bought and sold in the online era now have a digital footprint.
I know mainly because I read about my fellow collectors and the great lengths they go to to track down cards, learn prices paid, buyers, sellers, etc. It is through these same collectors that many of the names of alleged card doctors are out there (some advertise!) as are the ones allegedly benefitting.
Unlike many, I read Terms and Conditions. Not all the time (fairly certain my eternal souls belongs to Apple), but I did for PSA. I’m no lawyer but I have some basic, sound understandings of how the law works and I seem to recall that therein, YOU (the customer) agree that you will not knowingly submit a fake or altered card on a submission. So should PSA choose to do so, they could check the list of bad certs against the names of the ‘original’ submitter. If there’s a small handful of submitter’s who have an unusually high percentage of cards that have been proven to have been doctored? I believe PSA would be able to clear themselves of wrongdoing (and liability) very, very quickly. And those submitters?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@LGC said:
PWCC can’t have it both ways. Their other key pillar: “We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. Professional grading is subjective and different 3rd party graders will often disagree over the grading on a single card."
Either just keep the original grade or knowing what you know, inform the grader and let them decide, but tell the story/be transparent in both cases. PWCC deciding to draft their own definition means they can start to be “judges”, which they clearly state they aren’t, and also the auction house (a significant conflict of interest, IMO!).
Inform the grader? Pretty sure that PSA knows about this card/auction given all the posts.
@craig44 said:
This is already falling off people's radars.
I see it more as a huge scratch on the radar screen or indentation on the radar unit itself. There’s no amount of windex, goo-b-gone or buffing that’s going to remove the damage that’s been done. With that being said and what’s been uncovered, it takes things like this years to justifiably play out. Capone didnt go to jail for murder or bootlegging.
And by radar, I am referring to PWCC’s core beings and beliefs. Integrity is gone and some of the things that were said in an attempt to make certain things “ok” were not ok, but a meager clown-like defense.
@craig44 said:
This is already falling off people's radars.
And by radar, I am referring to PWCC’s core beings and beliefs. Integrity is gone and some of the things that were said in an attempt to make certain things “ok” were not ok, but a meager clown-like defense.
To me the first issue was the shilling back in 2016 and it appeared that a blind eye was turned towards that issue based on my conversations with them at the National. Then the defense of “we are coaching the people up who were doing this” was a huge red flag. How hard is it to inform people that are shilling up bids and retracting that they are done period. When we talked about it and they tried to deny it one screen glance at VCP and bidder a***t made that a very short discussion.
Now with the “conservation” mess they should have either pulled the Mantle or said nothing. Worst thing to do was double down on it, and act like “altering a card that can’t be detected is conservation.” No -altering a card is altering and against the rules established by TPG companies and not some method you get to define and cite coins and comics. When they conserve an item like a flag from the 1700’s that belonged to George Washington people know and are ok with it since you are preserving an artifact with historical significance. If they could slab it and sell it people would want to know it had been altered, and if it was altered and nobody could tell would it be honest and ethical to not disclose it. Really not that hard to be honest and tell the truth about things.
@craig44 said:
This is already falling off people's radars.
Maybe here but definitely not on BO where there are hundreds of questionable PWCC cards that keep getting added to the trimmed lists. Go to the 52 Mantle PWCC thread and start at comment #1681 from earlier today then catch up. They found a victim in all of this PWCC shadiness and he was pretty PO'd.
@craig44 said:
This is already falling off people's radars.
Maybe here but definitely not on BO where there are hundreds of questionable PWCC cards that keep getting added to the trimmed lists. Go to the 52 Mantle PWCC thread and start at comment #1681 from earlier today then catch up. They found a victim in all of this PWCC shadiness and he was pretty PO'd.
the hobby has been & always will be filled with unscrupulous activity, but when it comes to light that innumerable cards are being bought, altered and sold again for many thousands more, crisis point is the best way i know how to describe it. this is straight-up turning into an epidemic based on what my eyeballs saw. a bevy of people need to start serving hard time for these crimes. but until that happens, the downward spiral is only going to pick up steam. too much easy money to be made by miscreants who seem to be multiplying by the day. as much as i hate to say this, unless this runaway train is stopped in its tracks, i can foresee a day when graded cards will be tantamount to autos -- unless you allowed the card to breathe air and had it graded yourself, total peace of mind will no longer be part of the equation.
I would recommend to anyone read the thread about 52 Mantle PWCC on Blowout Forum...interesting and informative read. I was unaware of this forum site.
@craig44 said:
This is already falling off people's radars.
And by radar, I am referring to PWCC’s core beings and beliefs. Integrity is gone and some of the things that were said in an attempt to make certain things “ok” were not ok, but a meager clown-like defense.
To me the first issue was the shilling back in 2016 and it appeared that a blind eye was turned towards that issue based on my conversations with them at the National. Then the defense of “we are coaching the people up who were doing this” was a huge red flag. How hard is it to inform people that are shilling up bids and retracting that they are done period. When we talked about it and they tried to deny it one screen glance at VCP and bidder a***t made that a very short discussion.
Now with the “conservation” mess they should have either pulled the Mantle or said nothing. Worst thing to do was double down on it, and act like “altering a card that can’t be detected is conservation.” No -altering a card is altering and against the rules established by TPG companies and not some method you get to define and cite coins and comics. When they conserve an item like a flag from the 1700’s that belonged to George Washington people know and are ok with it since you are preserving an artifact with historical significance. If they could slab it and sell it people would want to know it had been altered, and if it was altered and nobody could tell would it be honest and ethical to not disclose it. Really not that hard to be honest and tell the truth about things.
KC
Wouldn't be that difficult for the TPG to buy this card and either take it off the market or regrade it.
@craig44 said:
This is already falling off people's radars.
And by radar, I am referring to PWCC’s core beings and beliefs. Integrity is gone and some of the things that were said in an attempt to make certain things “ok” were not ok, but a meager clown-like defense.
To me the first issue was the shilling back in 2016 and it appeared that a blind eye was turned towards that issue based on my conversations with them at the National. Then the defense of “we are coaching the people up who were doing this” was a huge red flag. How hard is it to inform people that are shilling up bids and retracting that they are done period. When we talked about it and they tried to deny it one screen glance at VCP and bidder a***t made that a very short discussion.
Now with the “conservation” mess they should have either pulled the Mantle or said nothing. Worst thing to do was double down on it, and act like “altering a card that can’t be detected is conservation.” No -altering a card is altering and against the rules established by TPG companies and not some method you get to define and cite coins and comics. When they conserve an item like a flag from the 1700’s that belonged to George Washington people know and are ok with it since you are preserving an artifact with historical significance. If they could slab it and sell it people would want to know it had been altered, and if it was altered and nobody could tell would it be honest and ethical to not disclose it. Really not that hard to be honest and tell the truth about things.
KC
Did you ever participate in any SCD auctions in the 1990's? If you put in a "Top All" bid and won, you ALWAYS outbid the #2 guy by pennies!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Given their view and their reasoning, I will never purchase another thing from PWCC... or consign anything to them. That video was a disaster! While I always thought they had better results and better service than Probstein, both are off my radar for good.
@craig44 said:
I have not read the Forbes pieces. are they just white knight puff pieces or does the author pull no punches?
The author actually posts here. Seems to be a very decent guy who has reported on the hobby for a long time. He spoke frequently in his recent writings about PWCC because that’s what the entire hobby has been talking about going on a decade; in an almost exclusively positive way regarding PWCC, I might add, until the last 2-3 years or so as negativity has started to creep in (read and judge for yourself about why).
So I don’t think it really fair to lump in the ‘Forbes columnist’ - who has pretty much served to help expand the hobby through his reporting - as I think he’s just that: a reporter. And since he’s a columnist for one of the larger financial publications on earth, I really don’t see any way he’s done any harm - only good for this hobby.
I’ll also say that it would be best not to throw out the baby with the bath water either - that’s another alarming trend in society. While the current situation still has to play out further, PWCC did come up with some good innovations, helped the market reach new heights and attracted lots of attention to this great hobby.
I’m not around as long as many but I am a GREAT researcher and I love to read and write so I’ll add this note of fact:
Mastro raised prices in the market and while he had a considerable fall in the baseball card world, his prices did not suffer the same fate. There are some similarities to modern times (history always repeats itself, now, doesn’t it?) so I wouldn’t worry too much about falling skies. Let those who invested heavily worry; everyone of them knows every investment carries risk. Stocks, bonds, options, housing, Art, e-currencies - you name it. It’s not just strip poker where you can lose your shirt!
Collect what you like at prices you can afford and you’ll always enjoy your cards.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
But until actual legal authorities get involved and obtain the internal transactional records, userid masking methodologies, etc. from the parties involved all of this is still largely based on assumptions that are seemingly providing circumstantial evidence that makes things appear ugly.
It may turn out to be true, but the way people are already posting it’s seems that a majority are ready to hold a public execution today when the real legal discovery phase hasn’t even begun yet, let alone having a trial where what has been accused is actually proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
In the meantime, the continued stoking of these fires based on a lot of assumptions that still need to be validated is irresponsible and is potentially hurting the majority of the stakeholders in the hobby who are completely innocent.
Those who also collect comics know that similar issues have been surrounding CGC for years.
Here is their position on conservation/restoration:
“Restoration is a treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material for aesthetic purposes. Conservation is a treatment to stabilize a comic book’s structural state using archivally safe materials such as rice paper and wheat paste. Detected restoration and conservation is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning, and tape / substance / restoration removal are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade and, in accordance with CGC’s policy, are encapsulated with CGC’s Restored label. “
Takeaway: a comic gets a blue label with no indication of any work performed on the book if it is only dry cleaned, pressed and has tape or previous color touch removed.
Copious color touch was removed from the spine of this comic with an x-acto knife. As a result, it received a blue label (no noted restoration/conservation) when resubmitted:
But until actual legal authorities get involved and obtain the internal transactional records, userid masking methodologies, etc. from the parties involved all of this is still largely based on assumptions that are seemingly providing circumstantial evidence that makes things appear ugly.
It may turn out to be true, but the way people are already posting it’s seems that a majority are ready to hold a public execution today when the real legal discovery phase hasn’t even begun yet, let alone having a trial where what has been accused is actually proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
In the meantime, the continued stoking of these fires based on a lot of assumptions that still need to be validated is irresponsible and is potentially hurting the majority of the stakeholders in the hobby who are completely innocent.
I don’t see any public execution fervor here; I see card collectors sharing information about the marketplace.
But, I agree in this sense:
Read these things yourself and decide for yourself - that is always the best policy.
If anything, I’d say it’s rather important to do so in all walks of life these days.
Knowledge is power.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
But until actual legal authorities get involved and obtain the internal transactional records, userid masking methodologies, etc. from the parties involved all of this is still largely based on assumptions that are seemingly providing circumstantial evidence that makes things appear ugly.
It may turn out to be true, but the way people are already posting it’s seems that a majority are ready to hold a public execution today when the real legal discovery phase hasn’t even begun yet, let alone having a trial where what has been accused is actually proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
In the meantime, the continued stoking of these fires based on a lot of assumptions that still need to be validated is irresponsible and is potentially hurting the majority of the stakeholders in the hobby who are completely innocent.
I see no reason to suspend our critical reasoning abilities while we wait on a judgment from a court of law that will be years away if it ever comes.
PWCC has not been shy about participating in message boards, but we've seen no public denials, only lame attempts to legitimize what they've been doing by redefining acceptable alterations.
And PWCC, userid masking, etc. aside, there is strong and mounting visual evidence that PSA has failed at its core mission of detecting alterations on hundreds of some of the most important and valuable cards in the hobby. Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Ruth, Gehrig, Every hour more cards come to light. The cards where it costs the most to get them graded and where presumably the most attention is given. It's really hard to see how it could be worse. When is PSA going to address it? And how?
I am so disappointed with this current situation. I have both bought and consigned with PWCC throughout the years and was happy with there service. Brent and Betsy were so vocal about wanting to set tenents and clean up this hobby, and now radio silence. What has it been, 16 days of so since their last postings? If you truly on the side of cleaning up the hobby, why the silence? At this point, that silence is very telling to me.
But until actual legal authorities get involved and obtain the internal transactional records, userid masking methodologies, etc. from the parties involved all of this is still largely based on assumptions that are seemingly providing circumstantial evidence that makes things appear ugly.
It may turn out to be true, but the way people are already posting it’s seems that a majority are ready to hold a public execution today when the real legal discovery phase hasn’t even begun yet, let alone having a trial where what has been accused is actually proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
In the meantime, the continued stoking of these fires based on a lot of assumptions that still need to be validated is irresponsible and is potentially hurting the majority of the stakeholders in the hobby who are completely innocent.
I see no reason to suspend our critical reasoning abilities while we wait on a judgment from a court of law that will be years away if it ever comes.
PWCC has not been shy about participating in message boards, but we've seen no public denials, only lame attempts to legitimize what they've been doing by redefining acceptable alterations.
And PWCC, userid masking, etc. aside, there is strong and mounting visual evidence that PSA has failed at its core mission of detecting alterations on hundreds of some of the most important and valuable cards in the hobby. Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Ruth, Gehrig, Every hour more cards come to light. The cards where it costs the most to get them graded and where presumably the most attention is given. It's really hard to see how it could be worse. When is PSA going to address it? And how?
Couldn't agree more strongly with the above. Trimmers of all stripes will always be around but there have been far too many examples of bad cards being placed into holders and legitimized, the before and after examples are clear. Something has to be done in order to restore confidence but I'm not sure what that will be, and whether or not its success is guaranteed. It's fine to say that the vast, vast majority of slabbed cards are legit, but I now can't safely assume that one I might be considering is anything but.
A thought on conservation... I have little problem with it. Bent corners flattened with the backside of a thumbnail is what it amounts to and if only going that far, fine. Stuff people do to their cards. But all the trimming that's come to light is not conservation, it's fraudulent and ruins the card permanently. And my confidence in tpgs to detect it is currently nil.
I just deleted a political comment. Please do not do that again. I appreciate everyone maintaining civility in this thread, but if it devolves into ugliness, I will need to act accordingly.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
I guess I must be missing the point here, so I apologize in advance.
It's no secret that cards have been "worked on" since day one. In my opinion the TPG companies came into existence because of this, and sellers exaggerating (lying?) about the grade/condition of their cards.
It shouldn't be a secret that some of these altered cards make their way into slabs and get sold.
We can't even agree on what's acceptable to do to a card. Wiping off wax? Dewarping? Certainly NOT recoloring!
I don't see one single thing wrong with a consignor or auction house pointing out that a card is strong for the grade. When the sticker controversy began, I looked through some of my auction catalogs and about half the cards "were possibly worthy of a better grade". I don't see where a sticker is anything different.
Many cards I have bought were sold to me because a seller pointed out a feature of the card that I might have missed. I bought a (raw) 1962 card for my set that appeared mint way back when PSA was just getting started. I bragged about how nice it was to a different seller. He asked where did I ever find one that nice. When I told him he said that seller was notorious for "rolling and trimming" cards! Off to PSA it went, my firts submission actually. Came back "Mint 9". Well, that's it for me, the card is still in my set and I believe it's unaltered. I am certainly not going to send it in for review!
Now PWCC will be (?) listing cards slabbed as "authentic/altered" by a TPG and this is a huge problem? If a seller sends them an altered card that resides in a TPG holder with a numeric grade, they are not here to police that seller imo.
I don't see how this really changes anything. Nobody is here to "clean up the hobby" certainly not a seller, consignor or auction house, who are making a living offering cards/collectibles for sale. How many time has it been pointed out that ebay allows bidders to repeatedly retract bids, with little or no consequences?
I put my trust in PSA and SGC (to a little lesser extent) and leave it at that. I rarely buy raw cards, and never if they are worth more than $50.00 or so.
If I "need" a card that is incredibly hard to find, I would LOVE the option of finding one slabbed "authentic/altered" as a filler to my set. I guess when I die and someone else gets this card, someone COULD end up selling it as an unaltered card, but at least until then the card is out of circulation.
Otherwise doesn't it just get resubmitted until some point TPG gives it a grade?
Sorry if I have missed a "game changer" here. I would really like to know what the HUGE problem with PWCC is here?
Thanks and have a great day!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Have you actually watched the video that PWCC released? I think there is a big difference between knowing something is out there and trying to justify it. Two completely different things. I think most of us know these types of doctored cards are out there. Brent took it to a whole other level in that video saying it is OK to doctor cards as long as you can't detect it. I don't think anyone is arguing that an altered card should be marked on the flip. That much is obvious. If it is an undetectable alteration and someone is going to submit the card for grading are they always going to disclose it? Do they always disclose it now? If it is 'undetectable' and not disclosed now we have an altered card in a holder without any sort of designation. Brent knows this is already happening just like everyone else. He must also know the eventual outcome of him justifying this is more undetected doctored cards in holders.
Comments
Conservation=preservation
Alterations=changing a card to improve appearance.
I don't understand why Brent doesn't get these very simple definitions.
Oh wait, maybe I do understand....
$$$$$
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I’m not a rocket surgeon, but I think the whole point of altering/restoring/conserving cards is to do it in a way that can’t be detected by others.
I wonder if Joe is willing to “Take a Hack” at this topic. I’d like to know his opinion and take on these matters. Seems as if more people are/will be getting cheated
I'm keeping an eye on things. Just keep it civil. As long as everyone stays away from name-calling, wild threats and outlandish conspiracy theories, things should be ok. But if it goes downhill, then I may have to reconsider.
If I buy a Dave Kingman rookie card, I better not find out it was doctored.😉
For 90% of my stuff, I submitted it and I still have and I don’t mess with my stuff so I have pretty great peace of mind. But I do have some rational thoughts on the subject.
Well, all these cards that have been bought and sold in the online era now have a digital footprint.
I know mainly because I read about my fellow collectors and the great lengths they go to to track down cards, learn prices paid, buyers, sellers, etc. It is through these same collectors that many of the names of alleged card doctors are out there (some advertise!) as are the ones allegedly benefitting.
Unlike many, I read Terms and Conditions. Not all the time (fairly certain my eternal souls belongs to Apple), but I did for PSA. I’m no lawyer but I have some basic, sound understandings of how the law works and I seem to recall that therein, YOU (the customer) agree that you will not knowingly submit a fake or altered card on a submission. So should PSA choose to do so, they could check the list of bad certs against the names of the ‘original’ submitter. If there’s a small handful of submitter’s who have an unusually high percentage of cards that have been proven to have been doctored? I believe PSA would be able to clear themselves of wrongdoing (and liability) very, very quickly. And those submitters?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Inform the grader? Pretty sure that PSA knows about this card/auction given all the posts.
This is already falling off people's radars.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
There’s nothing left to add. I will never forget and will never purchase from them. But everything that could be said has been said.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
I see it more as a huge scratch on the radar screen or indentation on the radar unit itself. There’s no amount of windex, goo-b-gone or buffing that’s going to remove the damage that’s been done. With that being said and what’s been uncovered, it takes things like this years to justifiably play out. Capone didnt go to jail for murder or bootlegging.
And by radar, I am referring to PWCC’s core beings and beliefs. Integrity is gone and some of the things that were said in an attempt to make certain things “ok” were not ok, but a meager clown-like defense.
“It depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is.”
It’s just getting started
To me the first issue was the shilling back in 2016 and it appeared that a blind eye was turned towards that issue based on my conversations with them at the National. Then the defense of “we are coaching the people up who were doing this” was a huge red flag. How hard is it to inform people that are shilling up bids and retracting that they are done period. When we talked about it and they tried to deny it one screen glance at VCP and bidder a***t made that a very short discussion.
Now with the “conservation” mess they should have either pulled the Mantle or said nothing. Worst thing to do was double down on it, and act like “altering a card that can’t be detected is conservation.” No -altering a card is altering and against the rules established by TPG companies and not some method you get to define and cite coins and comics. When they conserve an item like a flag from the 1700’s that belonged to George Washington people know and are ok with it since you are preserving an artifact with historical significance. If they could slab it and sell it people would want to know it had been altered, and if it was altered and nobody could tell would it be honest and ethical to not disclose it. Really not that hard to be honest and tell the truth about things.
KC
Maybe here but definitely not on BO where there are hundreds of questionable PWCC cards that keep getting added to the trimmed lists. Go to the 52 Mantle PWCC thread and start at comment #1681 from earlier today then catch up. They found a victim in all of this PWCC shadiness and he was pretty PO'd.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Mud in the eye here is the repeated reference of cards as “assets” and them outperforming the S&P 500.
What is BO?
Blow Out - a forum for card collectors not unlike this one
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Mr. vendor, I'll have 2 with no onions, and a large Coke!
Thx! I will check it out...
the hobby has been & always will be filled with unscrupulous activity, but when it comes to light that innumerable cards are being bought, altered and sold again for many thousands more, crisis point is the best way i know how to describe it. this is straight-up turning into an epidemic based on what my eyeballs saw. a bevy of people need to start serving hard time for these crimes. but until that happens, the downward spiral is only going to pick up steam. too much easy money to be made by miscreants who seem to be multiplying by the day. as much as i hate to say this, unless this runaway train is stopped in its tracks, i can foresee a day when graded cards will be tantamount to autos -- unless you allowed the card to breathe air and had it graded yourself, total peace of mind will no longer be part of the equation.
I would recommend to anyone read the thread about 52 Mantle PWCC on Blowout Forum...interesting and informative read. I was unaware of this forum site.
Wouldn't be that difficult for the TPG to buy this card and either take it off the market or regrade it.
Why was the OP banned?
Not because of this thread.
Did you ever participate in any SCD auctions in the 1990's? If you put in a "Top All" bid and won, you ALWAYS outbid the #2 guy by pennies!
Given their view and their reasoning, I will never purchase another thing from PWCC... or consign anything to them. That video was a disaster! While I always thought they had better results and better service than Probstein, both are off my radar for good.
No Forbes article yet?
I've been following along, and that same thought occurred to me, as well.
I have not read the Forbes pieces. are they just white knight puff pieces or does the author pull no punches?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The author actually posts here. Seems to be a very decent guy who has reported on the hobby for a long time. He spoke frequently in his recent writings about PWCC because that’s what the entire hobby has been talking about going on a decade; in an almost exclusively positive way regarding PWCC, I might add, until the last 2-3 years or so as negativity has started to creep in (read and judge for yourself about why).
So I don’t think it really fair to lump in the ‘Forbes columnist’ - who has pretty much served to help expand the hobby through his reporting - as I think he’s just that: a reporter. And since he’s a columnist for one of the larger financial publications on earth, I really don’t see any way he’s done any harm - only good for this hobby.
I’ll also say that it would be best not to throw out the baby with the bath water either - that’s another alarming trend in society. While the current situation still has to play out further, PWCC did come up with some good innovations, helped the market reach new heights and attracted lots of attention to this great hobby.
I’m not around as long as many but I am a GREAT researcher and I love to read and write so I’ll add this note of fact:
Mastro raised prices in the market and while he had a considerable fall in the baseball card world, his prices did not suffer the same fate. There are some similarities to modern times (history always repeats itself, now, doesn’t it?) so I wouldn’t worry too much about falling skies. Let those who invested heavily worry; everyone of them knows every investment carries risk. Stocks, bonds, options, housing, Art, e-currencies - you name it. It’s not just strip poker where you can lose your shirt!
Collect what you like at prices you can afford and you’ll always enjoy your cards.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351
This is new and also not good.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Not at all.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
But until actual legal authorities get involved and obtain the internal transactional records, userid masking methodologies, etc. from the parties involved all of this is still largely based on assumptions that are seemingly providing circumstantial evidence that makes things appear ugly.
It may turn out to be true, but the way people are already posting it’s seems that a majority are ready to hold a public execution today when the real legal discovery phase hasn’t even begun yet, let alone having a trial where what has been accused is actually proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
In the meantime, the continued stoking of these fires based on a lot of assumptions that still need to be validated is irresponsible and is potentially hurting the majority of the stakeholders in the hobby who are completely innocent.
Dave
Those who also collect comics know that similar issues have been surrounding CGC for years.
Here is their position on conservation/restoration:
“Restoration is a treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material for aesthetic purposes. Conservation is a treatment to stabilize a comic book’s structural state using archivally safe materials such as rice paper and wheat paste. Detected restoration and conservation is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning, and tape / substance / restoration removal are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade and, in accordance with CGC’s policy, are encapsulated with CGC’s Restored label. “
Takeaway: a comic gets a blue label with no indication of any work performed on the book if it is only dry cleaned, pressed and has tape or previous color touch removed.
Copious color touch was removed from the spine of this comic with an x-acto knife. As a result, it received a blue label (no noted restoration/conservation) when resubmitted:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351
This is new and also not good.> @70ToppsFanatic said:
I don’t see any public execution fervor here; I see card collectors sharing information about the marketplace.
But, I agree in this sense:
Read these things yourself and decide for yourself - that is always the best policy.
If anything, I’d say it’s rather important to do so in all walks of life these days.
Knowledge is power.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I see no reason to suspend our critical reasoning abilities while we wait on a judgment from a court of law that will be years away if it ever comes.
PWCC has not been shy about participating in message boards, but we've seen no public denials, only lame attempts to legitimize what they've been doing by redefining acceptable alterations.
And PWCC, userid masking, etc. aside, there is strong and mounting visual evidence that PSA has failed at its core mission of detecting alterations on hundreds of some of the most important and valuable cards in the hobby. Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Ruth, Gehrig, Every hour more cards come to light. The cards where it costs the most to get them graded and where presumably the most attention is given. It's really hard to see how it could be worse. When is PSA going to address it? And how?
I am so disappointed with this current situation. I have both bought and consigned with PWCC throughout the years and was happy with there service. Brent and Betsy were so vocal about wanting to set tenents and clean up this hobby, and now radio silence. What has it been, 16 days of so since their last postings? If you truly on the side of cleaning up the hobby, why the silence? At this point, that silence is very telling to me.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Couldn't agree more strongly with the above. Trimmers of all stripes will always be around but there have been far too many examples of bad cards being placed into holders and legitimized, the before and after examples are clear. Something has to be done in order to restore confidence but I'm not sure what that will be, and whether or not its success is guaranteed. It's fine to say that the vast, vast majority of slabbed cards are legit, but I now can't safely assume that one I might be considering is anything but.
A thought on conservation... I have little problem with it. Bent corners flattened with the backside of a thumbnail is what it amounts to and if only going that far, fine. Stuff people do to their cards. But all the trimming that's come to light is not conservation, it's fraudulent and ruins the card permanently. And my confidence in tpgs to detect it is currently nil.
The detective work by some in this hobby is incredible
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
"You ain't gotta be in jail, to be doing time"
-Tupac Shakur
I have never seen those articles. The feds also have ways of flipping people. It's only a matter of time before the dominos start to fall.
I just deleted a political comment. Please do not do that again. I appreciate everyone maintaining civility in this thread, but if it devolves into ugliness, I will need to act accordingly.
I guess I must be missing the point here, so I apologize in advance.
It's no secret that cards have been "worked on" since day one. In my opinion the TPG companies came into existence because of this, and sellers exaggerating (lying?) about the grade/condition of their cards.
It shouldn't be a secret that some of these altered cards make their way into slabs and get sold.
We can't even agree on what's acceptable to do to a card. Wiping off wax? Dewarping? Certainly NOT recoloring!
I don't see one single thing wrong with a consignor or auction house pointing out that a card is strong for the grade. When the sticker controversy began, I looked through some of my auction catalogs and about half the cards "were possibly worthy of a better grade". I don't see where a sticker is anything different.
Many cards I have bought were sold to me because a seller pointed out a feature of the card that I might have missed. I bought a (raw) 1962 card for my set that appeared mint way back when PSA was just getting started. I bragged about how nice it was to a different seller. He asked where did I ever find one that nice. When I told him he said that seller was notorious for "rolling and trimming" cards! Off to PSA it went, my firts submission actually. Came back "Mint 9". Well, that's it for me, the card is still in my set and I believe it's unaltered. I am certainly not going to send it in for review!
Now PWCC will be (?) listing cards slabbed as "authentic/altered" by a TPG and this is a huge problem? If a seller sends them an altered card that resides in a TPG holder with a numeric grade, they are not here to police that seller imo.
I don't see how this really changes anything. Nobody is here to "clean up the hobby" certainly not a seller, consignor or auction house, who are making a living offering cards/collectibles for sale. How many time has it been pointed out that ebay allows bidders to repeatedly retract bids, with little or no consequences?
I put my trust in PSA and SGC (to a little lesser extent) and leave it at that. I rarely buy raw cards, and never if they are worth more than $50.00 or so.
If I "need" a card that is incredibly hard to find, I would LOVE the option of finding one slabbed "authentic/altered" as a filler to my set. I guess when I die and someone else gets this card, someone COULD end up selling it as an unaltered card, but at least until then the card is out of circulation.
Otherwise doesn't it just get resubmitted until some point TPG gives it a grade?
Sorry if I have missed a "game changer" here. I would really like to know what the HUGE problem with PWCC is here?
Thanks and have a great day!
Have you actually watched the video that PWCC released? I think there is a big difference between knowing something is out there and trying to justify it. Two completely different things. I think most of us know these types of doctored cards are out there. Brent took it to a whole other level in that video saying it is OK to doctor cards as long as you can't detect it. I don't think anyone is arguing that an altered card should be marked on the flip. That much is obvious. If it is an undetectable alteration and someone is going to submit the card for grading are they always going to disclose it? Do they always disclose it now? If it is 'undetectable' and not disclosed now we have an altered card in a holder without any sort of designation. Brent knows this is already happening just like everyone else. He must also know the eventual outcome of him justifying this is more undetected doctored cards in holders.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black