It seems PWCC has officially doubled down. Brent replied to posts on instagram last night that ¨its possible this card experienced some level of conservation based on before and after images weve seen, but in our opinion, acts of conservation are not uncommon in the market and dont warrant mention in an auction description.¨
I guess transparency to the buyer is now out the window. He has acknowledged the card is altered, or in his spin, conserved, yet figures it is common and any potential buyer doesnt need to know.
damning....
Well, what can he say? He issued a blanket statement, he didn't admit the card was altered. They are not a grading/authenticating company. Unless they absolutely know a card has been "fixed", they aren't going to say anything.
If, they do know, I would hope they would disclose the fact.
I am going to assume that if the card achieves a grade, it will be listed as unaltered EVERY time.
If a card gets slabbed enough times as altered, the submitter may give up and list it that way. THEN the next owner will try to get it graded. And on and on..........
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
Well, what can he say? He issued a blanket statement, he didn't admit the card was altered. They are not a grading/authenticating company. Unless they absolutely know a card has been "fixed", they aren't going to say anything.
Therein lies the problem and what is going to continue to cause major headaches for Brent. I think people would be a lot less harsh on PWCC if they simply behaved as a normal auction house and sold cards from consignors (not their own) and got rid of the stickers that are essentially psuedo grading opinions. But now that they've benefited enormously financially from the additional revenue it brings, it will be next to impossible for them to ween themselves off the revenue crack. That's their predicament.
Either you're a grading/authentication company or you're not. If you try to play in both areas by issuing stickers and weighing in on metallic Jordans being grade worthy even though they are already graded "AUTHENTIC" by PSA, you're playing in both arenas. They disclose in their product descriptions they are not a grading company, yet they render grading opinions all the time. This is what they said (in part) about the metallic jordan:
"PSA has referenced some irregular wear to the right edge as cause for the authentic assessment. We respect the opinion of PSA, though we attest that from our review this card does not appear altered and while we do see a higher degree of wear to the right edge, we consider this a condition flaw, not an alteration"
@JoeBanzai said:
Well, what can he say? He issued a blanket statement, he didn't admit the card was altered. They are not a grading/authenticating company. Unless they absolutely know a card has been "fixed", they aren't going to say anything.
Therein lies the problem and what is going to continue to cause major headaches for Brent. I think people would be a lot less harsh on PWCC if they simply behaved as a normal auction house and sold cards from consignors (not their own) and got rid of the stickers that are essentially psuedo grading opinions. But now that they've benefited enormously financially from the additional revenue it brings, it will be next to impossible for them to ween yourself off the revenue crack. That's their predicament.
Either you're a grading/authentication company or you're not. If you try to play in both areas by issuing stickers and weighing in on metallic Jordans being grade worthy even though they are already graded "AUTHENTIC" by PSA, you're playing in both arenas. They disclose in their product descriptions they are not a grading company, yet they render grading opinions all the time. I mean, this is what they said (in part) about the metallic jordan:
"PSA has referenced some irregular wear to the right edge as cause for the authentic assessment. We respect the opinion of PSA, though we attest that from our review this card does not appear altered and while we do see a higher degree of wear to the right edge, we consider this a condition flaw, not an alteration"
It seems PWCC has officially doubled down. Brent replied to posts on instagram last night that ¨its possible this card experienced some level of conservation based on before and after images weve seen, but in our opinion, acts of conservation are not uncommon in the market and dont warrant mention in an auction description.¨
I guess transparency to the buyer is now out the window. He has acknowledged the card is altered, or in his spin, conserved, yet figures it is common and any potential buyer doesnt need to know.
damning....
Well, what can he say? He issued a blanket statement, he didn't admit the card was altered. They are not a grading/authenticating company. Unless they absolutely know a card has been "fixed", they aren't going to say anything.
If, they do know, I would hope they would disclose the fact.
I am going to assume that if the card achieves a grade, it will be listed as unaltered EVERY time.
If a card gets slabbed enough times as altered, the submitter may give up and list it that way. THEN the next owner will try to get it graded. And on and on..........
Then they shouldn’t be putting stickers on slabs noting premium quality or whatever. They don’t have that expertise as evidenced by the many blowout threads.
The only thing I would ask of a consigner is that they can:
Spot a tampered holder
Spot a fake holder
Grade, but not conserve, cards on behalf of clients.
Quality marketing of upcoming auctions.
Timely and accurate listings, shipping and payout.
That isn’t much. Most of us here could do that if it was our job. Many here do just that as a side job.
Hats off to Dan for his rational points on the matter. I would add that if PWCC continues to periodically change their grading program and the terminology used to describe it, then they are not building a solid secondary market for their own brand.
Yesterdays HE and PQ designations don't seamlessly link with today's PWCC A, E, and S designations. I believe there was a designation system before the HE and PQ designation as well that I have forgotten entirely what it was supposed to mean for the cards given the designation. I don't think this marketing ploy will age well, even though in the short term PWCC seems to be benefiting greatly from it.
On a positive note, I'm very happy with their high resolution scans. Huge props for implementing that. I don't even bother with the "PSA/SGC/BGS harsh assessment is a shame because in our opinion this card has the attributes of a higher grade" text and go straight to the scans.
Therein lies the problem and what is going to continue to cause major headaches for Brent. I think people would be a lot less harsh on PWCC if they simply behaved as a normal auction house and sold cards from consignors (not their own) and got rid of the stickers that are essentially psuedo grading opinions. But now that they've benefited enormously financially from the additional revenue it brings, it will be next to impossible for them to ween themselves off the revenue crack. That's their predicament.
Either you're a grading/authentication company or you're not. If you try to play in both areas by issuing stickers and weighing in on metallic Jordans being grade worthy even though they are already graded "AUTHENTIC" by PSA, you're playing in both arenas. They disclose in their product descriptions they are not a grading company, yet they render grading opinions all the time. This is what they said (in part) about the metallic jordan:
"PSA has referenced some irregular wear to the right edge as cause for the authentic assessment. We respect the opinion of PSA, though we attest that from our review this card does not appear altered and while we do see a higher degree of wear to the right edge, we consider this a condition flaw, not an alteration"
That, my friends, is a grading opinion.
Excellent points Dan and could not have said it better. You are either a seller/auction house or TPG not both. Huge conflict of interest. Don’t like the grade - render your own opinion about it being authentic despite PSA already making the determination. Determine that altered cards are not altered but “conserved”. How hard is it to be honest and reputable and disclose info. I think many would have no issue if they said the card had been preserved/altered.... but to take the route they did was ridiculous.
As successful as they have been in the card selling game this has been a bad business decision by Brent based on either bad advice or greed, and when people are spending $10k, $20k, $50k, $100k or more on a piece of cardboard encapsulated in a plastic case the quickest way for them to stop is when people are not being honest or ethical in the hobby. The idea is to increase the number of potential customers, and this episode has clearly run some people out of the hobby.
If indeed some people reacted that way, I would really question anyone who lets what some eBay seller says or does run them out of a hobby they ostensibly have enjoyed for years. There's been a lot of histrionics in some corners of the internet lately; end of the day, as Abe Lincoln said: Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be. PWCC has their opinion on things. We each have our own. A grader has his/hers. Some random dude on the internet has his. The only real truth lies in the moment a collector is enjoying his cards. It's all about living there.
PWCC can assign whatever opinion they want to the condition of a card. We all have eyes and can make our own assessment on what has superior or exceptional or whatever other arbitrary designation of eye appeal a card has.
In the case of the "Doctored Mantle", there is a system in place should the buyer feel the card has been worked and holdered in error. There has always been a buy back program for this. As a seller, PWCC should simple stand behind the opinions of the TPGers and honor their disclaimer of not being a TPGer. Some amateur photo matches on Blowout, in my opinion, don't amount to definitive proof. It's in a PSA holder so it was reviewed and assigned a grade. I don't feel PWCC needs to reference this in the listing based on some internet sleuths any more than they should list their own assessment to a Jordan PMG when it too is in a PSA holder. The biggest issue i have is the boneheaded decision to open up this conservation conversation.
End of the day, doctoring cards is nothing new. It's been happening for decades and those with the skills will occasionally slip one past the goalie. PSA isn't combing through worthpoint or photographing every card they grade for future comparisons. That is simply not feasible. PWCC and similar won't be either. The internet mob has gotten several of their "photo matches" dead wrong. This is a hobby, meant to be a pleasurable distraction from the real stresses of life. A few altered cards won't take that pleasure away.
I agree Matt. Those people who are collectors will stay in the hobby, those who see it as an investment piece will get scared out of it, those who see it as a little of both will have a hard decision. At the end of the day only Brent and PWCC have to either gain or lose by their actions and decisions. Me personally I would opt to do the right thing first and business second. I will still buy cards and enjoy the hobby, so what they do with their business is completely up to them.
Last night had a lot of fun and had dinner with a fellow board member and we discussed cards and had a couple of nice steaks and a great time. Food was great but the discussion of cards and sharing our experiences, just like we do on this board, is what makes this a fun hobby and will continue to do so. Amazing the amount of knowledge and expertise some people have on this board, and I know I appreciate the help I have been given. At one point we discussed how you (Matt) have an incredible eye for cards, and I know my collection is MUCH better the last couple of years from what I have picked up from you. If I had known this info about centering and eye appeal when I started buying graded cards 20 years ago 😳
@drc said:
Conservation is alteration. That's not a judgment if it's good or bad, ethical or unethical, just that it is a type of alteration. Same with restoration.
Very succinct and very accurate point. Has it been going on for a while - yes. Do people “doctor” cards by soaking them, trimming them, building up corners with a spoon... - yes. Your post states it very well. We can discuss ethics, good/bad... all day, but at the end of the day it is altering the card, and by PSA’s definition it should be noted as such. That point is very clear.
What makes all of this murky is once again you have the largest seller of graded cards on eBay/in the hobby putting $$ and sales ahead of doing what is right just like they did with shilling back in 2016. Had dinner the other night with a fellow CU poster and we were both discussing how successful could PWCC be if they combined their marketing and sales reach, and also had the integrity and treated people as well as someone like Jeff at Card Country. Can you imagine that. Would be the Amazon of the card business.
@drc said:
Conservation is alteration. That's not a judgment if it's good or bad, ethical or unethical, just that it is a type of alteration. Same with restoration.
I certainly think there's room for discussion.
I would have no problem with someone wiping wax of the front of a card as long as it doesn't scratch the gloss. If someone put a card in a dictionary to "dewarp" it, that wouldn't bother me either as long as the card thickness was unaffected.
Anything more than that, would bother me.
@drc said:
Art was brought up. It is true that paintings, movie posters, etc are sometimes restored. However, the rule, and law, always is that the restoration has to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing any restoration or alteration would be also considered unetheical in those collecting areas as well.
Agreed. The unique thing about cards is; they can be examined and encapsulated. You are getting an expert opinion on the item.
With larger items you would need to have an expert look at it, or trust in the seller's or consigner's integrity.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@drc said: Conservation is alteration. That's not a judgment if it's good or bad, ethical or unethical, just that it is a type of alteration. Same with restoration.
Very succinct and very accurate point. Has it been going on for a while - yes. Do people “doctor” cards by soaking them, trimming them, building up corners with a spoon... - yes. Your post states it very well. We can discuss ethics, good/bad... all day, but at the end of the day it is altering the card, and by PSA’s definition it should be noted as such. That point is very clear.
What makes all of this murky is once again you have the largest seller of graded cards on eBay/in the hobby putting $$ and sales ahead of doing what is right just like they did with shilling back in 2016. Had dinner the other night with a fellow CU poster and we were both discussing how successful could PWCC be if they combined their marketing and sales reach, and also had the integrity and treated people as well as someone like Jeff at Card Country. Can you imagine that. Would be the Amazon of the card business.
KC
I'm jumping in on this and will read from the beginning later. I conserve coins. NCS was started by me and one other person but I did the first coins that gave the company the idea for a conservation service in the first place. That said, I think I have "standing" in the discussion.
Yes, someone can argue that anything that is done to an object of any kind that changes it from its original, as made condition is an alteration! Getting stupid here but some will argue that even a little wear (a category all by itself) is a type of alteration. Thus, alterations of all kinds are very common in all fields of collecting. I'm going to leave out alterations done to defraud as then I'd need to write more. I'll just say that trimming a PPC or ball card to make it appear better is a crime.
I teach that there is a distinction between cleaning an object and conserving it. While in both cases we are "cleaning/altering" it, when something is **cleaned properly - in a way no one can tell - it has been conserved." That is a good thing. If a person is not knowledgeable enough to tell an object has been altered in such a way that it is evident to a knowledgeable person, that is their problem and that is the reason we have authentication services for ball cards.
Any specific cards or auctions that have been pulled or alerted. Wonder if the timing of the Mantle 4.5 has anything to do with the sudden change if so. Large consignor gave them the Mantle, Feds alerted and possible non pay on a major or large lot... very interesting.
@KendallCat said:
Any specific cards or auctions that have been pulled or alerted. Wonder if the timing of the Mantle 4.5 has anything to do with the sudden change if so. Large consignor gave them the Mantle, Feds alerted and possible non pay on a major or large lot... very interesting.
KC
Go to the bb, FB and bk subforums on blowout forums and check out all the threads about it.
@KendallCat said:
Any specific cards or auctions that have been pulled or alerted. Wonder if the timing of the Mantle 4.5 has anything to do with the sudden change if so. Large consignor gave them the Mantle, Feds alerted and possible non pay on a major or large lot... very interesting.
KC
Go to the bb, FB and bk subforums on blowout forums and check out all the threads about it.
Just saw the interview Brent did on YouTube, and whoever advised him to do a 1 hour interview and make the claims he did needs to have their head examined IMO.
Stating (and I am paraphrasing) that if you alter something but can’t tell it has been altered it is ok and that is conversation. His exact words were it is ok as long as it is done in a way that does not leave any evidence? Also, he states that taking a spoon and rocking it back and forth on a corner to smooth it out has been going on forever so that makes it ok. So as a collector if I can alter my cards by erasing pen and pencil marks, soaking them to remove stains, spooning corners to build them up and make them sharper... so I can get a higher grade or not get it is ok.
@KendallCat said:
Just saw the interview Brent did on YouTube, and whoever advised him to do a 1 hour interview and make the claims he did needs to have their head examined IMO.
Stating (and I am paraphrasing) that if you alter something but can’t tell it has been altered it is ok and that is conversation. His exact words were it is ok as long as it is done in a way that does not leave any evidence? Also, he states that taking a spoon and rocking it back and forth on a corner to smooth it out has been going on forever so that makes it ok. So as a collector if I can alter my cards by erasing pen and pencil marks, soaking them to remove stains, spooning corners to build them up and make them sharper... so I can get a higher grade or not get it is ok.
i'm still trying to clean up the mess my brain made after it detonated and seeped out of my ears onto the floor during that disturbingly riveting interview. few thoughts:
if i never hear the words "conservation" and "alteration" again, it'll be far too soon
the first half hour tried to convince me that it's completely acceptable for someone to be a full-fledged shyster as long as they don't leave behind remnants of their misdeeds
the second half hour tried to convince me that fear not, said shysters are not long for this world because the de facto vigilantes (pwcc) are here to purge the hobby
when it ended, for some unknown reason i immediately felt compelled to dig up the vid of that dude drinking a 20-yr-old bottle of crystal pepsi and ralphing it up everywhere moments later
in all seriousness, that was yet another reminder of how money all too often coerces people to say and do crazy things. i have been a proponent of pwcc for eons and have experienced countless silky smooth consignment jobs with them, but there were very few salient points made during that gigantic paradox of an interview that i could get on board with. brent is obviously a very sharp guy, but when he looked away pensively i could practically sense him pouring every ounce of intelligence he possessed into articulating a thought & stance that could be deemed ethically acceptable. instead, i found the entire hour to be nothing short of cringeworthy.
If PWCC has a card I "need" (there are VERY VERY few left that I need) I will bid.
For example, I am looking for a complete 1964 Bazooka box with Killebrew, if one becomes available that was altered because someone tried to remove tape residue or a stain caused by ink used to mark the original price, I would bid on it without hesitation!
I don't think PWCC is altering any cards, and if I see a card I just can't locate that is altered, I would like the option to bid on it as opposed to it sitting in a drawer somewhere, or being destroyed.
Card doctoring has been going on for a LONG time. Up til now, you either got offered one that passed a TPG inspection, or a raw card that failed to do so.
I believe the collector should have the choice, as long as the alteration is declared.
I am certain most of us have graded cards in our collections that have been altered/conserved.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
1.responsible by law ,legally answerable.
"the supplier of goods or services can become liable for breach of contract in a variety of ways"
I'll be the first to admit that I'm a big dummy but i can see this being a problem for PWCC on the cards that they have put their own "PWCC Certified" stickers on.
@JoeBanzai said:
If PWCC has a card I "need" (there are VERY VERY few left that I need) I will bid.
For example, I am looking for a complete 1964 Bazooka box with Killebrew, if one becomes available that was altered because someone tried to remove tape residue or a stain caused by ink used to mark the original price, I would bid on it without hesitation!
I don't think PWCC is altering any cards, and if I see a card I just can't locate that is altered, I would like the option to bid on it as opposed to it sitting in a drawer somewhere, or being destroyed.
Card doctoring has been going on for a LONG time. Up til now, you either got offered one that passed a TPG inspection, or a raw card that failed to do so.
I believe the collector should have the choice, as long as the alteration is declared.
I am certain most of us have graded cards in our collections that have been altered/conserved.
This is not the reason we buy graded cards, we were told that if we paid more for the graded version we "wouldn't get cheated".
So what are we paying for? A service that gets it right part of the time?
There is no disclaimer on PSA's site or the holders stating that the card in the holder may be altered or fake and that it is just their opinion that the cards are real and unaltered.
PSA also has a guarantee that basically states they don't make mistakes and if they do they will buy it back.
PSA has created a monster for themselves and if they go back now and state to their customers that, yes a percentage of cards in our holders are fake and altered it would trigger a massive amount of people sending in their cards for review or refunds.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
the way he looked away from the camera when speaking about the mantle.
when he was talking about not changing ebay titles or descriptions during an auction even if a card was proven altered, you could almost hear him working out in his mind real time, as he was speaking that ebay would not let him edit titles.
Has there been any implication anywhere that vintage graded wax material has been "doctored" in any way? Is that even possible? So far, fortunately, I have not seen any reference to that being so.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
I’m not - I would want to know the pulse of the customer - ALL DAY.
Sometimes, the best thing to do in business is to shut up and listen to the customer. The denouement in John Grisham’s The Firm happens when young attorney Mitch McDeere, deep in thought with his own situation, is snapped back into reality by his customer asking him if he’s even being listened to by him. Quite simply (and yes, I know it’s a story), the solution to Mitch’s problem presented itself to him once he opened his ears.
I know PSA is smart just as I know they read these boards and others. They’re listening. And they must fully grasp and realize that they have a business that is 100% based on reputation. After all, there are several companies out there that sell plastic and an opinion.
I don’t see folks lining up for PGS graded cards, though.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@JoeBanzai said:
If PWCC has a card I "need" (there are VERY VERY few left that I need) I will bid.
For example, I am looking for a complete 1964 Bazooka box with Killebrew, if one becomes available that was altered because someone tried to remove tape residue or a stain caused by ink used to mark the original price, I would bid on it without hesitation!
I don't think PWCC is altering any cards, and if I see a card I just can't locate that is altered, I would like the option to bid on it as opposed to it sitting in a drawer somewhere, or being destroyed.
Card doctoring has been going on for a LONG time. Up til now, you either got offered one that passed a TPG inspection, or a raw card that failed to do so.
I believe the collector should have the choice, as long as the alteration is declared.
I am certain most of us have graded cards in our collections that have been altered/conserved.
This is not the reason we buy graded cards, we were told that if we paid more for the graded version we "wouldn't get cheated".
So what are we paying for? A service that gets it right part of the time?
There is no disclaimer on PSA's site or the holders stating that the card in the holder may be altered or fake and that it is just their opinion that the cards are real and unaltered.
PSA also has a guarantee that basically states they don't make mistakes and if they do they will buy it back.
PSA has created a monster for themselves and if they go back now and state to their customers that, yes a percentage of cards in our holders are fake and altered it would trigger a massive amount of people sending in their cards for review or refunds.
I really don't understand your post.
No one gets it right ALL the time. PSA is the best TPG out there, but like everyone, they are not perfect.
You can bet on the fact that there are a LOT of graded cards out there that are "conserved". Many were sold in auctions.
I also think it's silly to call someone a card "grader" if they put a sticker on an already graded card, if they were grading they would put a sticker saying the grade was wrong and assigning their own numeric grade.
Bottom line, be educated and realistic, regardless of what comes out of this, "conserved" cards will make it into holders. Altered (hopefully) not so much.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
If PWCC has a card I "need" (there are VERY VERY few left that I need) I will bid.
For example, I am looking for a complete 1964 Bazooka box with Killebrew, if one becomes available that was altered because someone tried to remove tape residue or a stain caused by ink used to mark the original price, I would bid on it without hesitation!
I don't think PWCC is altering any cards, and if I see a card I just can't locate that is altered, I would like the option to bid on it as opposed to it sitting in a drawer somewhere, or being destroyed.
Card doctoring has been going on for a LONG time. Up til now, you either got offered one that passed a TPG inspection, or a raw card that failed to do so.
I believe the collector should have the choice, as long as the alteration is declared.
I am certain most of us have graded cards in our collections that have been altered/conserved.
This is not the reason we buy graded cards, we were told that if we paid more for the graded version we "wouldn't get cheated".
So what are we paying for? A service that gets it right part of the time?
There is no disclaimer on PSA's site or the holders stating that the card in the holder may be altered or fake and that it is just their opinion that the cards are real and unaltered.
PSA also has a guarantee that basically states they don't make mistakes and if they do they will buy it back.
PSA has created a monster for themselves and if they go back now and state to their customers that, yes a percentage of cards in our holders are fake and altered it would trigger a massive amount of people sending in their cards for review or refunds.
I really don't understand your post.
No one gets it right ALL the time. PSA is the best TPG out there, but like everyone, they are not perfect.
You can bet on the fact that there are a LOT of graded cards out there that are "conserved". Many were sold in auctions.
I also think it's silly to call someone a card "grader" if they put a sticker on an already graded card, if they were grading they would put a sticker saying the grade was wrong and assigning their own numeric grade.
Bottom line, be educated and realistic, regardless of what comes out of this, "conserved" cards will make it into holders. Altered (hopefully) not so much.
Show me were PSA states that they cannot detect all alterations and that some cards in their holders may be altered or fake?
Without this statement or disclaimer PSA is at major risk with their guarantee of being overwhelmed with returned cards.
PSA is the one stating they "guarantee" their grading not me.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
@JoeBanzai said:
If PWCC has a card I "need" (there are VERY VERY few left that I need) I will bid.
For example, I am looking for a complete 1964 Bazooka box with Killebrew, if one becomes available that was altered because someone tried to remove tape residue or a stain caused by ink used to mark the original price, I would bid on it without hesitation!
I don't think PWCC is altering any cards, and if I see a card I just can't locate that is altered, I would like the option to bid on it as opposed to it sitting in a drawer somewhere, or being destroyed.
Card doctoring has been going on for a LONG time. Up til now, you either got offered one that passed a TPG inspection, or a raw card that failed to do so.
I believe the collector should have the choice, as long as the alteration is declared.
I am certain most of us have graded cards in our collections that have been altered/conserved.
This is not the reason we buy graded cards, we were told that if we paid more for the graded version we "wouldn't get cheated".
So what are we paying for? A service that gets it right part of the time?
There is no disclaimer on PSA's site or the holders stating that the card in the holder may be altered or fake and that it is just their opinion that the cards are real and unaltered.
PSA also has a guarantee that basically states they don't make mistakes and if they do they will buy it back.
PSA has created a monster for themselves and if they go back now and state to their customers that, yes a percentage of cards in our holders are fake and altered it would trigger a massive amount of people sending in their cards for review or refunds.
I really don't understand your post.
No one gets it right ALL the time. PSA is the best TPG out there, but like everyone, they are not perfect.
You can bet on the fact that there are a LOT of graded cards out there that are "conserved". Many were sold in auctions.
I also think it's silly to call someone a card "grader" if they put a sticker on an already graded card, if they were grading they would put a sticker saying the grade was wrong and assigning their own numeric grade.
Bottom line, be educated and realistic, regardless of what comes out of this, "conserved" cards will make it into holders. Altered (hopefully) not so much.
Show me were PSA states that they cannot detect all alterations and that some cards in their holders may be altered or fake?
Without this statement or disclaimer PSA is at major risk with their guarantee of being overwhelmed with returned cards.
PSA is the one stating they "guarantee" their grading not me.
Sorry, I still don't see what you are getting at.
Cards that are not fakes get reviewed all the time and sometimes the grade changes. Some might get discovered as fakes (I am unaware of this happening).
If PSA actually claims to be perfect (they don't) there would be no need for the review. You would send it in and they would simply reholder the card and return it with the same grade(the .5 "bump" being an exception if a card was originally graded prior to the .5).
In your earlier post, you wrote; "PSA also has a guarantee that basically states they don't make mistakes and if they do they will buy it back."
Who on earth is going to send their already graded cards in hoping they will come back as "fake"? PSA holders cards (or used to) that are labeled "Authentic Altered".
I recently posted a PSA graded card on the Venezuelan thread that was called a fake. Is it? I don't know, I hope not.
I'll say it again......NO ONE gets it right 100% of the time. PSA does a great job, they are the best.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Biggest issue for me is the garbage he spouts about conservation being if a card is changed/altered but you can’t tell it is changed that is conservation. AlterIng a card in his opinion is ok as long as they (collectors/consumers) can’t tell it has been done. You have to be kidding me. Is this really who we want in the hobby selling cards at auction, assigning their own grades to cards despite constantly stating “we are not a third party grading company”, and accepting cards from known card doctors. Before and after photos of the 52 Mantle were made available and their position was that does not constitute evidence. I guess a corner going from dull and rough to a point is just conservation.
Brent did not pull the Mantle rookie because he said it would not have been fair to the submitter. What about the bidders and buyers who are spending $40k, $75k on grades? Is it fair to them they are buying cards that have evidence of being doctored, or are submitters the only ones being considered. Same thing happened with them back in 2016 with the shilling issues. They were presented with info and looked the other way - remember they found out who was doing it and they chose to “coach them up” rather than suspend them from bidding on auctions. Amazing how they keep this up. Another black eye for the hobby, and it is completely avoidable by just doing the right thing.
Comments
Well, what can he say? He issued a blanket statement, he didn't admit the card was altered. They are not a grading/authenticating company. Unless they absolutely know a card has been "fixed", they aren't going to say anything.
If, they do know, I would hope they would disclose the fact.
I am going to assume that if the card achieves a grade, it will be listed as unaltered EVERY time.
If a card gets slabbed enough times as altered, the submitter may give up and list it that way. THEN the next owner will try to get it graded. And on and on..........
Therein lies the problem and what is going to continue to cause major headaches for Brent. I think people would be a lot less harsh on PWCC if they simply behaved as a normal auction house and sold cards from consignors (not their own) and got rid of the stickers that are essentially psuedo grading opinions. But now that they've benefited enormously financially from the additional revenue it brings, it will be next to impossible for them to ween themselves off the revenue crack. That's their predicament.
Either you're a grading/authentication company or you're not. If you try to play in both areas by issuing stickers and weighing in on metallic Jordans being grade worthy even though they are already graded "AUTHENTIC" by PSA, you're playing in both arenas. They disclose in their product descriptions they are not a grading company, yet they render grading opinions all the time. This is what they said (in part) about the metallic jordan:
"PSA has referenced some irregular wear to the right edge as cause for the authentic assessment. We respect the opinion of PSA, though we attest that from our review this card does not appear altered and while we do see a higher degree of wear to the right edge, we consider this a condition flaw, not an alteration"
That, my friends, is a grading opinion.
Here's the original auction, FYI. https://ebay.com/itm/1997-Metal-Universe-Precious-Metal-Gems-Michael-Jordan-PMG-GREEN-10-PSA-PWCC-/352592905173?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true
^^^ this
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
PWCC should leave the grading to PSA. In my opinion they have stepped past the line.
Thunder Dan nailed it!
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
Then they shouldn’t be putting stickers on slabs noting premium quality or whatever. They don’t have that expertise as evidenced by the many blowout threads.
The only thing I would ask of a consigner is that they can:
That isn’t much. Most of us here could do that if it was our job. Many here do just that as a side job.
Hats off to Dan for his rational points on the matter. I would add that if PWCC continues to periodically change their grading program and the terminology used to describe it, then they are not building a solid secondary market for their own brand.
Yesterdays HE and PQ designations don't seamlessly link with today's PWCC A, E, and S designations. I believe there was a designation system before the HE and PQ designation as well that I have forgotten entirely what it was supposed to mean for the cards given the designation. I don't think this marketing ploy will age well, even though in the short term PWCC seems to be benefiting greatly from it.
On a positive note, I'm very happy with their high resolution scans. Huge props for implementing that. I don't even bother with the "PSA/SGC/BGS harsh assessment is a shame because in our opinion this card has the attributes of a higher grade" text and go straight to the scans.
-Nathanael
Brent Huigens
This and @thunderdan has the best sig pic!
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
Excellent points Dan and could not have said it better. You are either a seller/auction house or TPG not both. Huge conflict of interest. Don’t like the grade - render your own opinion about it being authentic despite PSA already making the determination. Determine that altered cards are not altered but “conserved”. How hard is it to be honest and reputable and disclose info. I think many would have no issue if they said the card had been preserved/altered.... but to take the route they did was ridiculous.
As successful as they have been in the card selling game this has been a bad business decision by Brent based on either bad advice or greed, and when people are spending $10k, $20k, $50k, $100k or more on a piece of cardboard encapsulated in a plastic case the quickest way for them to stop is when people are not being honest or ethical in the hobby. The idea is to increase the number of potential customers, and this episode has clearly run some people out of the hobby.
KC
If indeed some people reacted that way, I would really question anyone who lets what some eBay seller says or does run them out of a hobby they ostensibly have enjoyed for years. There's been a lot of histrionics in some corners of the internet lately; end of the day, as Abe Lincoln said: Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be. PWCC has their opinion on things. We each have our own. A grader has his/hers. Some random dude on the internet has his. The only real truth lies in the moment a collector is enjoying his cards. It's all about living there.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
PWCC can assign whatever opinion they want to the condition of a card. We all have eyes and can make our own assessment on what has superior or exceptional or whatever other arbitrary designation of eye appeal a card has.
In the case of the "Doctored Mantle", there is a system in place should the buyer feel the card has been worked and holdered in error. There has always been a buy back program for this. As a seller, PWCC should simple stand behind the opinions of the TPGers and honor their disclaimer of not being a TPGer. Some amateur photo matches on Blowout, in my opinion, don't amount to definitive proof. It's in a PSA holder so it was reviewed and assigned a grade. I don't feel PWCC needs to reference this in the listing based on some internet sleuths any more than they should list their own assessment to a Jordan PMG when it too is in a PSA holder. The biggest issue i have is the boneheaded decision to open up this conservation conversation.
End of the day, doctoring cards is nothing new. It's been happening for decades and those with the skills will occasionally slip one past the goalie. PSA isn't combing through worthpoint or photographing every card they grade for future comparisons. That is simply not feasible. PWCC and similar won't be either. The internet mob has gotten several of their "photo matches" dead wrong. This is a hobby, meant to be a pleasurable distraction from the real stresses of life. A few altered cards won't take that pleasure away.
I agree Matt. Those people who are collectors will stay in the hobby, those who see it as an investment piece will get scared out of it, those who see it as a little of both will have a hard decision. At the end of the day only Brent and PWCC have to either gain or lose by their actions and decisions. Me personally I would opt to do the right thing first and business second. I will still buy cards and enjoy the hobby, so what they do with their business is completely up to them.
Last night had a lot of fun and had dinner with a fellow board member and we discussed cards and had a couple of nice steaks and a great time. Food was great but the discussion of cards and sharing our experiences, just like we do on this board, is what makes this a fun hobby and will continue to do so. Amazing the amount of knowledge and expertise some people have on this board, and I know I appreciate the help I have been given. At one point we discussed how you (Matt) have an incredible eye for cards, and I know my collection is MUCH better the last couple of years from what I have picked up from you. If I had known this info about centering and eye appeal when I started buying graded cards 20 years ago 😳
KC
Very succinct and very accurate point. Has it been going on for a while - yes. Do people “doctor” cards by soaking them, trimming them, building up corners with a spoon... - yes. Your post states it very well. We can discuss ethics, good/bad... all day, but at the end of the day it is altering the card, and by PSA’s definition it should be noted as such. That point is very clear.
What makes all of this murky is once again you have the largest seller of graded cards on eBay/in the hobby putting $$ and sales ahead of doing what is right just like they did with shilling back in 2016. Had dinner the other night with a fellow CU poster and we were both discussing how successful could PWCC be if they combined their marketing and sales reach, and also had the integrity and treated people as well as someone like Jeff at Card Country. Can you imagine that. Would be the Amazon of the card business.
KC
I certainly think there's room for discussion.
I would have no problem with someone wiping wax of the front of a card as long as it doesn't scratch the gloss. If someone put a card in a dictionary to "dewarp" it, that wouldn't bother me either as long as the card thickness was unaffected.
Anything more than that, would bother me.
Agreed. The unique thing about cards is; they can be examined and encapsulated. You are getting an expert opinion on the item.
With larger items you would need to have an expert look at it, or trust in the seller's or consigner's integrity.
PWCC is purging certain auctions from their website. Seems odd.
They've been alerted about 100s of altered cards in their current and previous auctions with proof and are trying to do some PR.
I'm jumping in on this and will read from the beginning later. I conserve coins. NCS was started by me and one other person but I did the first coins that gave the company the idea for a conservation service in the first place. That said, I think I have "standing" in the discussion.
Yes, someone can argue that anything that is done to an object of any kind that changes it from its original, as made condition is an alteration! Getting stupid here but some will argue that even a little wear (a category all by itself) is a type of alteration. Thus, alterations of all kinds are very common in all fields of collecting. I'm going to leave out alterations done to defraud as then I'd need to write more. I'll just say that trimming a PPC or ball card to make it appear better is a crime.
I teach that there is a distinction between cleaning an object and conserving it. While in both cases we are "cleaning/altering" it, when something is **cleaned properly - in a way no one can tell - it has been conserved." That is a good thing. If a person is not knowledgeable enough to tell an object has been altered in such a way that it is evident to a knowledgeable person, that is their problem and that is the reason we have authentication services for ball cards.
Bad, BAD stuff!!
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
Any specific cards or auctions that have been pulled or alerted. Wonder if the timing of the Mantle 4.5 has anything to do with the sudden change if so. Large consignor gave them the Mantle, Feds alerted and possible non pay on a major or large lot... very interesting.
KC
Go to the bb, FB and bk subforums on blowout forums and check out all the threads about it.
93 proven conserved cards. Just in the modern basketball segment.
Which brings up a very interesting question. Do 2006 basketball cards really require “conserving”?
Thank you.
Just saw the interview Brent did on YouTube, and whoever advised him to do a 1 hour interview and make the claims he did needs to have their head examined IMO.
Stating (and I am paraphrasing) that if you alter something but can’t tell it has been altered it is ok and that is conversation. His exact words were it is ok as long as it is done in a way that does not leave any evidence? Also, he states that taking a spoon and rocking it back and forth on a corner to smooth it out has been going on forever so that makes it ok. So as a collector if I can alter my cards by erasing pen and pencil marks, soaking them to remove stains, spooning corners to build them up and make them sharper... so I can get a higher grade or not get it is ok.
Bold strategy Cotton.
KC
Agreed wholeheartedly.
A gut wrenching interview.
I thought it couldnt get any worse for PWCC.
I was wrong.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Agreed!
Wow...simply wow!
I will no longer participate in PWCC auctions. Good luck to those that do.
aconte
i'm still trying to clean up the mess my brain made after it detonated and seeped out of my ears onto the floor during that disturbingly riveting interview. few thoughts:
if i never hear the words "conservation" and "alteration" again, it'll be far too soon
the first half hour tried to convince me that it's completely acceptable for someone to be a full-fledged shyster as long as they don't leave behind remnants of their misdeeds
the second half hour tried to convince me that fear not, said shysters are not long for this world because the de facto vigilantes (pwcc) are here to purge the hobby
when it ended, for some unknown reason i immediately felt compelled to dig up the vid of that dude drinking a 20-yr-old bottle of crystal pepsi and ralphing it up everywhere moments later
in all seriousness, that was yet another reminder of how money all too often coerces people to say and do crazy things. i have been a proponent of pwcc for eons and have experienced countless silky smooth consignment jobs with them, but there were very few salient points made during that gigantic paradox of an interview that i could get on board with. brent is obviously a very sharp guy, but when he looked away pensively i could practically sense him pouring every ounce of intelligence he possessed into articulating a thought & stance that could be deemed ethically acceptable. instead, i found the entire hour to be nothing short of cringeworthy.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
If PWCC has a card I "need" (there are VERY VERY few left that I need) I will bid.
For example, I am looking for a complete 1964 Bazooka box with Killebrew, if one becomes available that was altered because someone tried to remove tape residue or a stain caused by ink used to mark the original price, I would bid on it without hesitation!
I don't think PWCC is altering any cards, and if I see a card I just can't locate that is altered, I would like the option to bid on it as opposed to it sitting in a drawer somewhere, or being destroyed.
Card doctoring has been going on for a LONG time. Up til now, you either got offered one that passed a TPG inspection, or a raw card that failed to do so.
I believe the collector should have the choice, as long as the alteration is declared.
I am certain most of us have graded cards in our collections that have been altered/conserved.
‘Yeah, I’m on a drug and it’s called conservation!’
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
li-a-ble
1.responsible by law ,legally answerable.
"the supplier of goods or services can become liable for breach of contract in a variety of ways"
I'll be the first to admit that I'm a big dummy but i can see this being a problem for PWCC on the cards that they have put their own "PWCC Certified" stickers on.
This is not the reason we buy graded cards, we were told that if we paid more for the graded version we "wouldn't get cheated".
So what are we paying for? A service that gets it right part of the time?
There is no disclaimer on PSA's site or the holders stating that the card in the holder may be altered or fake and that it is just their opinion that the cards are real and unaltered.
PSA also has a guarantee that basically states they don't make mistakes and if they do they will buy it back.
PSA has created a monster for themselves and if they go back now and state to their customers that, yes a percentage of cards in our holders are fake and altered it would trigger a massive amount of people sending in their cards for review or refunds.
The Wolf of Card Street is setting his own rules.
Boiled down all the gimmicks and labels, buyers groups, vaults and conservations end in money
cringe worthy for sure.
the way he looked away from the camera when speaking about the mantle.
when he was talking about not changing ebay titles or descriptions during an auction even if a card was proven altered, you could almost hear him working out in his mind real time, as he was speaking that ebay would not let him edit titles.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Stay tuned.
Something really big is on the horizon.
Depending on the time of day, that’s the sun.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
If cards from inventory rather than consignment get an unusually high percentage, there’s another potential problem.
Like always, hope for the best and expect the worst and chances are it lands in the middle.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Has there been any implication anywhere that vintage graded wax material has been "doctored" in any way? Is that even possible? So far, fortunately, I have not seen any reference to that being so.
The anticipation is killing me!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This is what's coming....
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
Surprised this has not gone poof yet...
I’m not - I would want to know the pulse of the customer - ALL DAY.
Sometimes, the best thing to do in business is to shut up and listen to the customer. The denouement in John Grisham’s The Firm happens when young attorney Mitch McDeere, deep in thought with his own situation, is snapped back into reality by his customer asking him if he’s even being listened to by him. Quite simply (and yes, I know it’s a story), the solution to Mitch’s problem presented itself to him once he opened his ears.
I know PSA is smart just as I know they read these boards and others. They’re listening. And they must fully grasp and realize that they have a business that is 100% based on reputation. After all, there are several companies out there that sell plastic and an opinion.
I don’t see folks lining up for PGS graded cards, though.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I really don't understand your post.
No one gets it right ALL the time. PSA is the best TPG out there, but like everyone, they are not perfect.
You can bet on the fact that there are a LOT of graded cards out there that are "conserved". Many were sold in auctions.
I also think it's silly to call someone a card "grader" if they put a sticker on an already graded card, if they were grading they would put a sticker saying the grade was wrong and assigning their own numeric grade.
Bottom line, be educated and realistic, regardless of what comes out of this, "conserved" cards will make it into holders. Altered (hopefully) not so much.
Show me were PSA states that they cannot detect all alterations and that some cards in their holders may be altered or fake?
Without this statement or disclaimer PSA is at major risk with their guarantee of being overwhelmed with returned cards.
PSA is the one stating they "guarantee" their grading not me.
Sorry, I still don't see what you are getting at.
Cards that are not fakes get reviewed all the time and sometimes the grade changes. Some might get discovered as fakes (I am unaware of this happening).
If PSA actually claims to be perfect (they don't) there would be no need for the review. You would send it in and they would simply reholder the card and return it with the same grade(the .5 "bump" being an exception if a card was originally graded prior to the .5).
In your earlier post, you wrote; "PSA also has a guarantee that basically states they don't make mistakes and if they do they will buy it back."
Who on earth is going to send their already graded cards in hoping they will come back as "fake"? PSA holders cards (or used to) that are labeled "Authentic Altered".
I recently posted a PSA graded card on the Venezuelan thread that was called a fake. Is it? I don't know, I hope not.
I'll say it again......NO ONE gets it right 100% of the time. PSA does a great job, they are the best.
Biggest issue for me is the garbage he spouts about conservation being if a card is changed/altered but you can’t tell it is changed that is conservation. AlterIng a card in his opinion is ok as long as they (collectors/consumers) can’t tell it has been done. You have to be kidding me. Is this really who we want in the hobby selling cards at auction, assigning their own grades to cards despite constantly stating “we are not a third party grading company”, and accepting cards from known card doctors. Before and after photos of the 52 Mantle were made available and their position was that does not constitute evidence. I guess a corner going from dull and rough to a point is just conservation.
Brent did not pull the Mantle rookie because he said it would not have been fair to the submitter. What about the bidders and buyers who are spending $40k, $75k on grades? Is it fair to them they are buying cards that have evidence of being doctored, or are submitters the only ones being considered. Same thing happened with them back in 2016 with the shilling issues. They were presented with info and looked the other way - remember they found out who was doing it and they chose to “coach them up” rather than suspend them from bidding on auctions. Amazing how they keep this up. Another black eye for the hobby, and it is completely avoidable by just doing the right thing.
KC