Legend “Supernova” Shipwreck $20 Gold

Justacommeman · May 16, 2019 5:43PM

@TradesWithChops said:
will this coin be at legends table in baltimore next week?

It’s being sold tonight

m

TradesWithChops · May 16, 2019 5:44PM

@Justacommeman said:

@TradesWithChops said:
will this coin be at legends table in baltimore next week?

It’s being sold tonight

m

awwww

cameonut2011 · May 16, 2019 5:46PM

Love the no nothings who comment. I don't think the people who have placed bids agree-and they are not dumb people.
Yes, the reserve was taken down when we realized there were several players on it and spoke to the owner. We do not do fixed price sales

I find it amusing that you refer to anyone who doesn't praise the coin as a "no nothing." There is a reason there was a reserve on the coin, and your admission that it was removed once you "realized there were several players on it" seems to imply that you may not have been so sure when you cataloged it. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the coin, but it suggests that the piece is an acquired taste much like the comments in this thread seem to suggest. Those "no nothings" might be a lot more intuitive than you give them credit for.

cameonut2011 · May 16, 2019 5:47PM

@Justacommeman said:

@TradesWithChops said:
will this coin be at legends table in baltimore next week?

It’s being sold tonight

m

I thought the bidding had already ended.

TradesWithChops · May 16, 2019 5:49PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@Justacommeman said:

@TradesWithChops said:
will this coin be at legends table in baltimore next week?

It’s being sold tonight

m

I thought the bidding had already ended.

nope. next bid is $250k. https://legendauctions.hibid.com/catalog/165351/the-regency-auction-32/?q=$20

Justacommeman · May 16, 2019 5:53PM

@TradesWithChops said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@Justacommeman said:

@TradesWithChops said:
will this coin be at legends table in baltimore next week?

It’s being sold tonight

m

I thought the bidding had already ended.

nope. next bid is $250k. https://legendauctions.hibid.com/catalog/165351/the-regency-auction-32/?q=$20

The lot is coming up shortly

m

cameonut2011 · May 16, 2019 5:55PM

Price Realized $240,000

TwoKopeiki · May 16, 2019 5:56PM

Hammered at 240k

edwardjulio · May 16, 2019 5:56PM

Sold $240,000 buyer #8062.

logger7 · May 16, 2019 5:58PM

I wish I could have seen it in person.

cameonut2011 · May 16, 2019 6:00PM

@logger7 said:
I wish I could have seen it in person.

For all we know maybe a dealer bought it and will have it at a future coin show. It will be interesting to see where it ends up.

Broadstruck · May 16, 2019 6:16PM

Wow $30K below original reserve... What happened there?

zodiac65 · May 16, 2019 6:17PM

OK, it did sell, awesome, now I can urinate safely again.

All that pee talk started to frighten me! LOL!

Justacommeman · May 16, 2019 6:28PM

$282 all in. Not shabby

m

Ronyahski · May 16, 2019 6:30PM

@Coinosaurus said:
No way to judge this coin w/o seeing in person. I'm guessing the luster is booming and really makes the colors pop.

Agree. Would love to see this coin in hand.

Ronyahski · May 16, 2019 6:36PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@RogerB said:
Looks like superficial rust stains. Should come off with proper conservation and stabilization. (See Kagin's Saddle Ridge hoard.)

I asked you before and never got an answer - when was the last time you saw blue rust? And if it were merely superficial rust stains then the luster would be muted. So at worst it’s thin film interference cause by a molecules thick layer....a freak of nature even if you’re correct.

Actually there is a process called "bluing" of steel in which steel oxidizes to protect itself from rusting. I wonder if this is nature's version of bluing. This supports RWB's hypothesis that it is remnant stains on the surface from metal that has partially rusted and/or blued and is not actually toning on the coin per se. I also don't agree that the if there are remnants of rust that it would necessarily mute the luster.

That sounds possible, but hard to tell without coin in hand. One thing for sure and I don't need coin in hand, that is definitely not thin film interference.

specialist · May 16, 2019 7:59PM

No, the new owner can't wait to get it. Its like a fantasy owning the coolest coin from a ship wreck

specialist · May 16, 2019 8:00PM

I'm sure the owner will let us display it down the road (we'd probably let the ANA do it)

PhilLynott · May 16, 2019 8:06PM

If I had that amount of money to spend on a coin that’s absolutely one I’d go after. Find me another one.

I also understand it’s not for everyone.

Grats to the new owner!

Zoins · May 16, 2019 8:07PM

@specialist said:
No, the new owner can't wait to get it. Its like a fantasy owning the coolest coin from a ship wreck

Will the owner be anonymous or not?

cameonut2011 · May 16, 2019 8:25PM

Now the real question is did this coin sell for a premium because of the color? It is higher than the PCGS Price Guide Value but that value is only a guess as the auction records are sparse. What is CACs generic bid for 67s?

ARCO · May 16, 2019 8:28PM

@TradesWithChops said:

@ARCO said:

@AngryTurtle said:

@ARCO said:
I wonder which is the most valuable aspect of the coin? Is it the coin or that little 67 printed in ink?

Your argument being, if it were graded 65, then the toning wouldnt bring the same money.

could be correct. could be wrong. We could test it. whoever buys it should have it regraded as a 65, and then do the whole auction re-do event to find out

My argument is that MS67 makes the coin a condition rarity, which brings the dollars more than anything. The provenance and color add a lot, but not 250K a lot. Go look at the population reports. Go look at MS66 coins that have sold on Heritage (60). There are coins so incredible it makes my eyes bleed, dripping with luster and priced around $20K-35K - even without those marks and large eyebrow gouge. The color makes the coin very special for those who appreciate it, but it is the grade on the holder that makes the coin a condition rarity.

Condition rarities sell for crazy money in every coin series, not the toning.

Aotearoa · May 16, 2019 10:08PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@specialist said:
Love the no nothings who comment.

What is a "no nothing?"

Double negative. Means “something”.

cameonut2011 · May 16, 2019 10:10PM

@ARCO said:

@TradesWithChops said:

@ARCO said:

@AngryTurtle said:

@ARCO said:
I wonder which is the most valuable aspect of the coin? Is it the coin or that little 67 printed in ink?

Your argument being, if it were graded 65, then the toning wouldnt bring the same money.

could be correct. could be wrong. We could test it. whoever buys it should have it regraded as a 65, and then do the whole auction re-do event to find out

My argument is that MS67 makes the coin a condition rarity, which brings the dollars more than anything. The provenance and color add a lot, but not 250K a lot. Go look at the population reports. Go look at MS66 coins that have sold on Heritage (60). There are coins so incredible it makes my eyes bleed, dripping with luster and priced around $20K-35K - even without those marks and large eyebrow gouge. The color makes the coin very special for those who appreciate it, but it is the grade on the holder that makes the coin a condition rarity.

Condition rarities sell for crazy money in every coin series, not the toning.

Unless it is a true monster and ravishing beauty in hand, I agree that the label and sticker made the difference here perhaps with an extra boost from the pedigree. With rare exceptions, toned gold doesn't tend to fetch large premiums in my experience, but of course, I have never handled a multicolor toned antebellum gold double eagle either.

cameonut2011 · May 16, 2019 10:11PM

@Aotearoa said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@specialist said:
Love the no nothings who comment.

What is a "no nothing?"

Double negative. Means “something”.

The grammar nerd in me is jumping with joy...

jedm · May 17, 2019 12:23AM

@PhilLynott said:
If I had that amount of money to spend on a coin that’s absolutely one I’d go after. Find me another one.

I also understand it’s not for everyone.

Grats to the new owner!

Absolutely! Congratulations to the new owner of a totally unique and imho gorgeous specimen.

batumi · May 17, 2019 5:23AM

@zodiac65 said:
OK, it did sell, awesome, now I can urinate safely again.

All that pee talk started to frighten me! LOL!

May need a House investigation on all the pee talk as well as the pee tapes.Contact Nafler or Muellar asap!

DCW · May 17, 2019 6:19AM

This is definitely one I hope to see in person one day. With all the publicity, though I would have thought the bidding would have went even higher. $280k is nothing to scoff at. I just thought a few big fish would be chasing the same line to the very end.
Congrats to the new owner.

Lakesammman · May 17, 2019 6:31AM

Paid a small fraction of the "supernova" price for this one and still love it.

At the time, the owner was told that it would upgrade if he allowed PCGS to remove the "rust stains". I guess the new management likes this look.

Boosibri · May 17, 2019 6:49AM

@Lakesammman said:
Paid a small fraction of the "supernova" price for this one and still love it.

At the time, the owner was told that it would upgrade if he allowed PCGS to remove the "rust stains". I guess the new management likes this look.

I like this coin a lot. The tendency of past management to reward bright shiny processed gold with higher grading was one of the most destructive forces in ruining many nice gold pieces.

amwldcoin · May 17, 2019 6:50AM

I wonder if the high bidder that hadn't met the reserve had an OH SH*T moment when the reserve was removed!

@cameonut2011 said:

Love the no nothings who comment. I don't think the people who have placed bids agree-and they are not dumb people.
Yes, the reserve was taken down when we realized there were several players on it and spoke to the owner. We do not do fixed price sales

I find it amusing that you refer to anyone who doesn't praise the coin as a "no nothing." There is a reason there was a reserve on the coin, and your admission that it was removed once you "realized there were several players on it" seems to imply that you may not have been so sure when you cataloged it. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the coin, but it suggests that the piece is an acquired taste much like the comments in this thread seem to suggest. Those "no nothings" might be a lot more intuitive than you give them credit for.

fc · May 17, 2019 6:55AM

Based on the amount of comments to this thread the coin has to be special to garner this much attention.

Me? I would save my nickels for a 54S HE if I was wealthy. We can dream right?

jwitten · May 17, 2019 9:52AM

@Lakesammman said:
Paid a small fraction of the "supernova" price for this one and still love it.

At the time, the owner was told that it would upgrade if he allowed PCGS to remove the "rust stains". I guess the new management likes this look.

Still one of my favorites!

Insider2 · May 17, 2019 10:50AM

@cameonut2011 said:

@Insider2 said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@Justacommeman said:
This wouldn’t be the first time a coin has been bumped due to color and in this case the color highlights and not hides any imperfections. ( which 67’s are allowed to have).

So you're saying that the grade has been color bumped? I have never seen a coin with darker color receive a color bump. Is it brighter in hand?

What about "rainbow, Cameo Morgans?

I never said color bumps didn't exist. I'm saying that color bumps are usually reserved for superior coins - those that EVERYONE tends to agree are eye appealing and not controversial pieces. I understand that gold is a different animal, but even as such, I would be surprised (if the coin is that dark) for it to have received a color bump rather than a bump for any number of other reasons including its pedigree. That's not slamming the color or coin per se, but I would call the color neutral at best. YMMV.

How close are the pictures that other posters have taken?

What about beautiful dark maroon-black Morgans? They get bumped much of the time.
Many knowledgeable folks love the color on the $20. It is special because an Internet search of the recovered $20's shows virtually all of them had any color from submersion removed! Many folks love iridescent blue proof Indians too.

robkool · May 17, 2019 12:59PM

One of the coolest coins I've seen at the Long Beach Coin Show... I got to see in person.

Insider2 · May 17, 2019 1:26PM

@DCW said:
This is definitely one I hope to see in person one day. With all the publicity, though I would have thought the bidding would have went even higher. $280k is nothing to scoff at. I just thought a few big fish would be chasing the same line to the very end.
Congrats to the new owner.

Uncle Billy (RIP ) would tell anyone who would listen that the big fish get to be that way because they know when to bite and when not to bite.

ACop · May 17, 2019 1:50PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@specialist said:
Love the no nothings who comment.

What is a "no nothing?"

its an old wooden ship

topstuf · May 17, 2019 1:56PM

I like toned gold.
However...this...

is where I like it to stop.

Stuart · May 17, 2019 2:27PM

Courtesy Photo Post — I have no skin in this game!!

IMO she appears to be Environmentally Damaged (or at least Altered) by Long Term Exposure in Sea Water, resulting from a famous ship wreck...

TradesWithChops · May 17, 2019 2:36PM

@Stuart said:
Courtesy Photo Post — I have no skin in this game!!

IMO she appears to be Environmentally Damaged (or at least Altered) by Long Term Exposure in Sea Water, resulting from a famous ship wreck...

spot(s) on

cameonut2011 · May 17, 2019 2:44PM

@Lakesammman said:
Paid a small fraction of the "supernova" price for this one and still love it.

At the time, the owner was told that it would upgrade if he allowed PCGS to remove the "rust stains". I guess the new management likes this look.

I'd take your coin over the supernova based on eye appeal 10 times out of 10.

Insider2 · May 17, 2019 3:22PM

@Stuart said:
Courtesy Photo Post — I have no skin in this game!!

IMO she appears to be Environmentally Damaged (or at least Altered) by Long Term Exposure in Sea Water, resulting from a famous ship wreck...

Come on guys. We can call any discolored gold environmentally damaged (or at least altered). There are many folks who consider any form of stain or chemical reaction to metal to be damage of some kind. Even anodizing aluminum that is done to protect it can be said to be a form of damage.

Since all the color will come right off in less that a minute or two revealing its "true" grade, the only actual damage to the coin are the bag marks and scratch across the neck. Assuming that this coin came out of the water with blue accents, there is a simple reason it was left the way it is and graded MS-67: $280K. Where are you going to get another one like it? SCORE, and congratulations to all concerned with this moneymaker! I call it the "Golden Egg."

Stuart · May 17, 2019 3:36PM

@Insider2 Numismatic Beauty is very subjective. — To each his own.😁👍

I personally would prefer this👇PCGS-66 because of the gorgeous Cartwheel Mint Luster.

@Insider2 said:

Come on guys. We can call any discolored gold environmentally damaged (or at least altered). There are many folks who consider any form of stain or chemical reaction to metal to be damage of some kind. Even anodizing aluminum that is done to protect it can be said to be a form of damage.

Since all the color will come right off in less that a minute or two revealing its "true" grade, the only actual damage to the coin are the bag marks and scratch across the neck. Assuming that this coin came out of the water with blue accents, there is a simple reason it was left the way it is and graded MS-67: $280K. Where are you going to get another one like it? SCORE, and congratulations to all concerned with this moneymaker! I call it the "Golden Egg."

Nic · May 17, 2019 3:52PM

@Justacommeman said:
$282 all in. Not shabby

m

A unique coin. Not shabby at all.

tradedollarnut · May 17, 2019 4:36PM

Those who love white Morgans and lustrous yellow gold - more power to ya as I agree that they’re pretty. But they’re not near unique at all. I’d never collect white Morgan’s - why bother?

specialist · May 17, 2019 4:53PM

OMG, shut up people. Yes, i said that. NO ONE can grade from an image. And to it seems few here can grade period.

PCGS and CAC have seen it and agreed about it. I forgot-the people here are smarter then them-NOT!

Bidders took it to $282,000.00.

This is equal to the 80S PCGS MS68+ toner that brought over $50G.....

I tried to buy that coin from the day I saw it. Last I know about my self, I know what I am doing.....

Get over your petty jealousies and accept it is a real treasure and phenomenal quality and toned coin.

MasonG · May 17, 2019 5:22PM

@Justacommeman said:

No nothings ( I would never say that BTW) or experts alike would be all be barking up the wrong tree if they only judged this coin by its online pictures.

There'd be a significant drop in the number of comments on this message board if people stopped judging coins based only on the pictures of them they see posted online.

MFeld · May 17, 2019 5:23PM

@specialist said:
OMG, shut up people. Yes, i said that. NO ONE can grade from an image. And to it seems few here can grade period.

PCGS and CAC have seen it and agreed about it. I forgot-the people here are smarter then them-NOT!

Bidders took it to $282,000.00.

This is equal to the 80S PCGS MS68+ toner that brought over $50G.....

I tried to buy that coin from the day I saw it. Last I know about my self, I know what I am doing.....

Get over your petty jealousies and accept it is a real treasure and phenomenal quality and toned coin.

Laura, I happen to love the look and uniqueness of the coin. However, just because a number of other people don’t like it (and/or disagree with the assigned grade) doesn’t mean they’re jealous. To each his (or her) own.

specialist · May 17, 2019 5:26PM

Mark,

No, they are spreading misinformation and fake news. I won't tolerate it on something that is clear cut.

I'm in the mood for a low level scrum this weekend....

BTW, RIP angry cat

roadrunner · May 17, 2019 5:27PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@specialist said:
Love the no nothings who comment.

What is a "no nothing?"

A no nothing.....is obviously a "smoething."

To truly judge this 1857-s, one should compare it to the former Oreville 1875-s $20 MS67 CAC Type 2 "moose." I think each of these coins is a pop 1 for type. I'd sort of expect them to be comparable.

Legend “Supernova” Shipwreck $20 Gold

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