@specialist said:
We are in talks w/the ANA to display it this summer
That would be awesome
Will it be kept in the gold pinch slab?
Seems like it would be classy if they did a single coin gold foil insert for it with the Black Cat provenance.
Even better to crack it out from the plastic, put it on a revolving (and tipping at the same time) display with very bright lights to show it off in all of its splendor.
Even better to put it in a tank of salt water like at the aquarium?
Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm just happy it's going to be displayed.
@specialist said:
We are in talks w/the ANA to display it this summer
That would be awesome
Will it be kept in the gold pinch slab?
Seems like it would be classy if they did a single coin gold foil insert for it with the Black Cat provenance.
Even better to crack it out from the plastic, put it on a revolving (and tipping at the same time) display with very bright lights to show it off in all of its splendor.
Just like the 1933 Double Eagles at last year's ANA
@specialist said:
We are in talks w/the ANA to display it this summer
That would be awesome
Will it be kept in the gold pinch slab?
Seems like it would be classy if they did a single coin gold foil insert for it with the Black Cat provenance.
Even better to crack it out from the plastic, put it on a revolving (and tipping at the same time) display with very bright lights to show it off in all of its splendor.
Both of us came back from vacation a day too early
What vacation? I was at work using Google Translate on a bunch of Russian medals.
@Insider2 said:
Even better to crack it out from the plastic, put it on a revolving (and tipping at the same time) display with very bright lights to show it off in all of its splendor.
The light would scatter on all those hits and accentuate its flaws. It would probably look better in the dark. Then again, they could take a huge blow up of it, Photoshop it, and air brush it like they do the pictures of models for the magazines.
I think they should sell giclee paintings of the coin using the PCGS glamour shots.
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
My thought is that getting people to start appreciating coins as art can help increase interest in coins.
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
@specialist said:
We are in talks w/the ANA to display it this summer
That would be awesome
Will it be kept in the gold pinch slab?
Seems like it would be classy if they did a single coin gold foil insert for it with the Black Cat provenance.
Even better to crack it out from the plastic, put it on a revolving (and tipping at the same time) display with very bright lights to show it off in all of its splendor.
Both of us came back from vacation a day too early
What vacation? I was at work using Google Translate on a bunch of Russian medals.
Neat! How do you input Cyrillic characters on a normal American/US keyboard?
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
You’re really starting to cross the line. Quit being an ass
@specialist said:
We are in talks w/the ANA to display it this summer
That would be awesome
Will it be kept in the gold pinch slab?
Seems like it would be classy if they did a single coin gold foil insert for it with the Black Cat provenance.
Even better to crack it out from the plastic, put it on a revolving (and tipping at the same time) display with very bright lights to show it off in all of its splendor.
Both of us came back from vacation a day too early
What vacation? I was at work using Google Translate on a bunch of Russian medals.
Neat! How do you input Cyrillic characters on a normal American/US keyboard?
Google translate has a screen with the characters. You can type the Russian letters on one side and the translation comes up in English. One problem is some of the letters are "artsy" on the coin and do not match exactly. Another problem is a few letters on coins are not in the Google list.
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
You’re really starting to cross the line. Quit being an ass
Sometimes I come off the wrong way in text. I meant that in jest, which you had no way of knowing when written in dry prose. Sorry. Nevertheless, I stand by my assertion that it was a strong price when guide is $175,000 for any coin in a 67 holder.
How many of those have color? How many of ANY gold coin has color? Whether you or I appreciate that color palette, it’s still near unique. Celebrate it for what it is, rather than denigrate it for what it is not.
@tradedollarnut said:
How many of those have color? How many of ANY gold coin has color? Whether you or I appreciate that color palette, it’s still near unique. Celebrate it for what it is, rather than denigrate it for what it is not.
The devil is making me post this: That coin IS WHAT IT IS - including its color and uniqueness. I'm happy for all involved with its sale price.
Ive never been that interested in coins with wild toning. However, when Black Cat shows his collection to someone---I guarantee this one will stand out, will be one that everyone wants to see first hand, will have one of the most interesting stories attached to it, and certainly be one of the coins I would love to see. From that perspective, I understand the desire to own it and the price it realized.
@Zoins said: "Even better to put it in a tank of salt water like at the aquarium? Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm just happy it's going to be displayed."
I like it! Not salt water but definitely in a tank of distilled water with sand, etc. The water will magnify the coin and the liquid will highlight the color under the bright lighting.
@Insider2 said: @Zoins said: "Even better to put it in a tank of salt water like at the aquarium? Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm just happy it's going to be displayed."
I like it! Not salt water but definitely in a tank of distilled water with sand, etc. The water will magnify the coin and the liquid will highlight the color under the bright lighting.
@Insider2 said: @Zoins said: "Even better to put it in a tank of salt water like at the aquarium? Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm just happy it's going to be displayed."
I like it! Not salt water but definitely in a tank of distilled water with sand, etc. The water will magnify the coin and the liquid will highlight the color under the bright lighting.
I believe the newest slabs are waterproof...
I thought this was understood...Crack it out first. IMO, the holder it is in is unattractive and therefore distracts from the coin.
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
You’re really starting to cross the line. Quit being an ass
Not only do I agree, but I have proof that $284K was both a score for the seller AND a score for the buyer not seller.
Useful metricsNone exist
Let's throw out the Norweb Pacquet 67 for its gazillionaire tendency.
Further available anecdotal evidence - One other MS67 of the type exists, a rich orange gold 1861 which Eric Streiner "made" sometime in the very late 80's from the only 66 of that date.
It sold for $352,500 Stacks Bowers 7/13 lot 4585 - now current PCGS Price Guide at $350,000.
It's tomorrow. See continuation below.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
You’re really starting to cross the line. Quit being an ass
Not only do I agree, but I have proof that $284K was both a score for the seller AND a score for the seller.
@ColonelJessup said:
Not only do I agree, but I have proof that $284K was both a score for the seller AND a score for the seller. Useful metricsNone exist
Let's throw out the Norweb Pacquet 67 for its gazillionaire tendency.
Further available anecdotal evidence - One other MS67 of the type exists, a rich orange gold 1861 which Eric Streiner "made" sometime in the very late 80's from the only 66 of that date.
It sold for $352,500 Stacks Bowers 7/13 lot 4585 with the then-current PCGS Price Guide at $350,000.
Today's price Guide is $150K for a 67 (pop13) with $250K for a (the) 67+
Under construction - will finish tomorrow
I respectfully disagree:
There are 17 type 1 Liberty Double Eagles in PCGS MS67 and a single coin in MS67+. Of those, 15 MS67 coins and the MS67+ are 1857-S coins. Many of them can be found online and also hail from the SS Central America. Many of them (also available as True Views or through auction images) have cleaner fields, CAC stickers, and PCGS special labels. One of them even has some very minor coloration or "toning." The coin is the "common date" (tongue in cheek) for MS67 type I Libs and is not top pop for the date; thus, it is more surprising to me that it would be an auction outlier (toning excepted - I'll get there in a minute).
I think your comparison to the 1861 $20 (pop 1/0 - finest by 2 points) and 1861 $20 pacquet (pop 1/0 - finest by 6 points and only 2 known) is not apt. The 1861 coins look superior to my eye and have cleaner fields. Moreover as the finest known with no known equals, you would expect that the coins would fetch much more than a "common" date 67 from a hoard not to mention that the quality is better IMHO (toning excepted).
There is ample data to support the PCGS Price Guide value. Some of the prices below may be for minor varieties which shouldn't affect the price, or if it does, should only increase it over the generic subject coin. (Actually 2 appear to be Spiked Shield too like the Legend coin). Keep in mind these are SS Central America, PCGS, CAC, and in MS67 holders. Some of them and the True Views of their cousins also look to have cleaner fields than the Legend piece. Here are some of the examples I found:
1857-S SS Central America PCGS MS67 - Stack's December 2000, Lot #1504, realized - $63,250
(There was no CAC way back then as you obviously know). I agree this is too old to be of use.
With auction records in the $100k-$150k range, I do not think my comment or the Price Guide is based on nothing. $150k-$170k is a reasonable expectation for a retail price. Again, the pedigree is the same, there are special labels, the coins are CAC/PCGS, etc. The coins were also clean mark wise. The only meaningful distinction here is the toning.
Color bumping was suggested by TDN; however, this practice is usually for coins that almost all would agree are superior. This coin was controversial (i.e. like it or hate it - no in between based on the in hand comments) and usually such coins do not receive a color bump so there is a dissent as to whether it should sell for the same as cleaner 67s. Assuming that we accept it as solid or high end for a 67, then the extra $132k or so was for the toning. Fifty percent is not a trivial color premium on a six figure coin.
We can also argue about time. The last few auction records are stable. Given the lack of top pop status, relatively "common date" status as a hoard coin, and overall deterioration of the coin market, I do not think it is reasonable to assume a $132k jump in value. I, thus, disagree that there are no useful metrics.
It is not unreasonable to criticize my tone which may have been unprofessional (although half-hearted and triggered by an old thread containing comments by his business partner). The substance of my comment, however, was not wrong. The price was strong, and yes, if I was an auction house, I'd advertise it as such. If you sold a coin for $282k when the other examples were selling for $100k-$150k, why wouldn't you tout it?
The purchaser was revealed to be a wealthy collector who won't notice the money expended is even missing. As long as he is happy, I'm happy for him. I would not necessarily conclude that it was a score for the buyer (assuming that you meant a likely appreciation in value) as that is too speculative. Only time will tell.
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
@Zoins said:
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
You’re really starting to cross the line. Quit being an ass
Not only do I agree, but I have proof that $284K was both a score for the seller AND a score for the buyer not seller.
Useful metricsNone exist Let's throw out the Norweb Pacquet 67 for its gazillionaire tendency.
Further available anecdotal evidence - One other MS67 of the type exists, a rich orange gold 1861 which Eric Streiner "made" sometime in the very late 80's from the only 66 of that date.
It sold for $352,500 Stacks Bowers 7/13 lot 4585 - now current PCGS Price Guide at $350,000.
It's tomorrow.
I want to express my personal disappointment with @cameonut2011's decision to use a very clearly incomplete 10,000 word essay on this subject as a starting point. I happen to agree with some of what he said and thank him for saving me the typing. Abusive PM sent, Now, because you are a wise-ass with good intentions, I will correct some of the assumptions you made without reading paragraphs effin' number 1 plus putative numbers 17 and 23.
Gazillionaire seems to separate this from the pack. I was, as usual, overly subtle (for you). Sorry
I've known this coin since having seen it at Norweb, bought by Jerry Bauman of MTB for $550K (IIRC).
I've known the current owner for 40 years. He believes, and rightly so, that it ranks with Teddy's coin as being eligible for the $10MM club. It doesn't compare to anything. It takes nothing less than a totally careless misreading to imagine that I meant otherwise.
If you've been following me, you should already have figured out that, throughout the 80's, I was one of the top 20 been-there-done-that traders and auction buyers as well as being JA's first grader at NGC.
If I were to further expand on the 61 regular issue in 67, it would only be to REPEAT that I knew Eric Streiner (I bought Norman Stack's Gem (then MS64 1795 $10 from him) made the coin and you really should just assume that, like this, the raw King of Siam set, Garrett, Eliasberg, Norweb, Pittman, Childs, Bass, the Apostrophe's, I saw it ALL in-hand and as it happened.
And who, and colluded and partnered and competed with and against the best aggregated group of skilled knowledgeable dealers to ever assemble in major auction rooms. if it's a iconic headliner from that period, assume personally acquired knowledge . Lucky me. Both seriously and sardonically. The confluences, the opportunities... never happened before and never will again.
I could go on, I could make more points about the "Super" and sound like I care.
But I care less and less, because so few of you are actually here to pick up some knowledge.
There's always fun and games, and I like to have sometimes-silly fun too.
But, today, rather than further wasting my time expounding upon my self-pity about wasting my time, I will explore the experience of "Pfffffttt"
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@ColonelJessup said:
I've known the current owner for 40 years. He believes, and rightly so, that it ranks with Teddy's coin as being eligible for the $10MM club. It doesn't compare to anything.
For better or worse, there are only 2 coins in the $10MM club, the Cardinal-TDN 1794 Dollar and the 2012 Australia $1M face value coin.
If this is another $10MM coin, it would be great to see that realized at some point, however even Laura mentioned the coin market may not be ready for the $10MM level. It would be great if it happened.
@ColonelJessup said:
I've known the current owner for 40 years. He believes, and rightly so, that it ranks with Teddy's coin as being eligible for the $10MM club. It doesn't compare to anything.
For better or worse, there are only 2 coins in the $10MM club, the Cardinal-TDN 1794 Dollar and the 2012 Australia $1M face value coin.
If this is another $10MM coin, it would be great to see that realized at some point, however even Laura mentioned the coin market may not be ready for the $10MM level. It would be great if it happened.
If J-1776 were to come up for public sale, I believe that it would reach $10,000,000, fairly easily.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@ColonelJessup said:
I've known the current owner for 40 years. He believes, and rightly so, that it ranks with Teddy's coin as being eligible for the $10MM club. It doesn't compare to anything.
For better or worse, there are only 2 coins in the $10MM club, the Cardinal-TDN 1794 Dollar and the 2012 Australia $1M face value coin.
If this is another $10MM coin, it would be great to see that realized at some point, however even Laura mentioned the coin market may not be ready for the $10MM level. It would be great if it happened.
You are now officially an nit-picking idiot (NPI). And, since Laurie only rarely has the cojones to disagree, knowing me longer and how well I marshal my factoids and how she runs like the wind from my arguments, why would you imagine I would consider her THE authority. My guess is that I've known (and done business with) almost all if not every member of the Million Dollar Coin Club panel for most of 40 years, should they have been around that long.
Would you, today, call the Carter-(et al) '94 a $10M coin? Today? Negatory. Is it only a member of the $7.5M club?.
Are there four of those on the planet? Five? NPI
Gazillionaire is a nuance, not an amount. It's in the sui generis hierarchy, which is without hierarchy.
While not in the hierarchy, the Super is sui generis. There is no other US coin that even suggests its existence. I didn't say I liked the coin. I'm simply saying it's beyond very special, as did @tradedollarnut and @specialist. Since JA is always complaining that I'm too hard on her, she might appreciate that my point suggests that her empathy for the Black Cat as someone with a "Precious" is greater than you apparently have for some poor SOB who, no matter how poor or wealthy, is carrying around a coin Jones on his back.
Lotta nit picking idiots here? You betcha! Next NPI, have at it!!!
A personal Pffffftt to this thread, and, hopefully, many others I might foolishly carpal myself out on.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Mark, I presume you’re referring to the 1907 Saint Gaudens Pattern $20 Gold (pictured👇below).
@MFeld said:
If J-1776 were to come up for public sale, I believe that it would reach $10,000,000, fairly easily.
(Image Credit: PCGS CoinFacts)
The owner, who also has three Extremely High Reliefs, the Norweb 1911-D $10, which many graded raw MS68 at that sale and a lot of other similarly classy Saint-Gaudens stuff, has placed this specific coin in a multi-generational trust, I think my old thermonuclear 1907 Wire Edge $10 from Christie's 1987 (graded 67 in '88 or so) is in there too. He had my old '21 Saint (MS64), but the last time I saw it as part of his holdings was likely over a dozen years ago when it was offered back to me. I bought it from @MrEureka (a year-set of Saints has some really neat P-Mints) and sold to Mr. V thru Triple in 1988.
Teddy's Coin could eventually be the first $100 million coin, but maybe not till the year an off-quality Gutenberg or super-quality Duesenberg tallies $250M.
Side bet: Laurie has a customer who's already offered over $10M and been turned down.
Andy, was that Saint set Karler-Goldman-Garrett-you-me "Gone in 60 Seconds" in 24 hours at the '88 ANA?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@ColonelJessup said:
I want to express my personal disappointment with *cameonut decide to use a very clearly incomplete 10,000 word essay on this subject as a starting point.
Please add the rest of the numerals to my moniker to prevent the other poster from going on a tirade.
If J-1776 were to come up for public sale, I believe that it would reach $10,000,000, fairly easily.
Legend Numismatics offered $15 million for this coin about 6 years ago and the owner laughed at us. Sadly, it is in a trust now for his grand kids we've been told
Big ticket coins are suddenly strong again. Things have been beaten down so bad you forget how cheap coins are
@specialist said: If J-1776 were to come up for public sale, I believe that it would reach $10,000,000, fairly easily.
Legend Numismatics offered $15 million for this coin about 6 years ago and the owner laughed at us. Sadly, it is in a trust now for his grand kids we've been told
Big ticket coins are suddenly strong again. Things have been beaten down so bad you forget how cheap coins are
That was, as you know, a sucker bet. You've mentioned it before, Remarkably, we agree (mostly) on most things
I will PM you a funny story that will give you the opportunity to laugh at the conniptions of one of your favorite rivals while keeping "Mr. V's" privacy intact, which is part of the fun of the story.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
5th result down on a generic search for oreville 1875 I think is what you wanted to find
I wish PCGS would fix the search function that was built into the software. I too long gave up on it and have resorted to Google to spider search the forums.
@ColonelJessup said:
I could go on, I could make more points about the "Super" and sound like I care.
But I care less and less, because so few of you are actually here to pick up some knowledge.
I love to learn. I wasn't dismissing your discussion of the 1861 coins in 67. I was only saying that comparing those two coins to any of the 1857-S coins in 67 is sort of like comparing a gem 1893-S Morgan to a gem 1881-S (all other factors equal). Sometimes tangents in a thread can be quite educational and useful (compare the Indian proof gold NCS discussion in the superb gem quarter eagle thread in the last couple of weeks which I learned from - thank you for indulging all of my questions in that thread!).
I think there is a certain amount of emotion that goes into coin grading and coin collecting in general. when we see a coin, we react almost immediately in some emotional degree. certain coins have the power to evoke that emotion more, much more, than others. for some in the Hobby this "Shipwreck Gold" probably has that "power" when they hear, read or think about it. it is just too nostalgic and romantic for some to bear.
toning has the same affect, a series or design can have that affect. for me right now it seems to be certain Medals and the look of a near Gem/Gem quality Walker. they "get" me.
@ColonelJessup said:
I've known the current owner for 40 years. He believes, and rightly so, that it ranks with Teddy's coin as being eligible for the $10MM club. It doesn't compare to anything.
For better or worse, there are only 2 coins in the $10MM club, the Cardinal-TDN 1794 Dollar and the 2012 Australia $1M face value coin.
If this is another $10MM coin, it would be great to see that realized at some point, however even Laura mentioned the coin market may not be ready for the $10MM level. It would be great if it happened.
You are now officially an nit-picking idiot (NPI). And, since Laurie only rarely has the cojones to disagree, knowing me longer and how well I marshal my factoids and how she runs like the wind from my arguments, why would you imagine I would consider her THE authority. My guess is that I've known (and done business with) almost all if not every member of the Million Dollar Coin Club panel for most of 40 years, should they have been around that long.
Would you, today, call the Carter-(et al) '94 a $10M coin? Today? Negatory. Is it only a member of the $7.5M club?.
Are there four of those on the planet? Five? NPI
Gazillionaire is a nuance, not an amount. It's in the sui generis hierarchy, which is without hierarchy.
While not in the hierarchy, the Super is sui generis. There is no other US coin that even suggests its existence. I didn't say I liked the coin. I'm simply saying it's beyond very special, as did @tradedollarnut and @specialist. Since JA is always complaining that I'm too hard on her, she might appreciate that my point suggests that her empathy for the Black Cat as someone with a "Precious" is greater than you apparently have for some poor SOB who, no matter how poor or wealthy, is carrying around a coin Jones on his back.
Lotta nit picking idiots here? You betcha! Next NPI, have at it!!!
A personal Pffffftt to this thread, and, hopefully, many others I might foolishly carpal myself out on.
Looks like I got under your skin there Colonel. I agree the coin is special and I'm sure Black Cat would love it.
My point is that $10MM is a special price level the hobby has been waiting to surpassed again since 2013. Since it's an important level and has been mentioned as such for the growth of the hobby, in my mind, it's better not to cheapen it up with "ownership adds a point" type of speculation. I'm eagerly looking forward to the day when the next coin does cross the $10MM level.
As for the Carter/Cardinal/TDN dollar, are you claiming there are 4-5 first struck silver dollars now? To me, "first" means one here
Again, I think this is a great coin and we should be celebrating that.
@specialist said: If J-1776 were to come up for public sale, I believe that it would reach $10,000,000, fairly easily.
Legend Numismatics offered $15 million for this coin about 6 years ago and the owner laughed at us. Sadly, it is in a trust now for his grand kids we've been told
Big ticket coins are suddenly strong again. Things have been beaten down so bad you forget how cheap coins are
I hope "sadly" is being said in jest. You, as someone who loves and praises "fresh" coins, should appreciate that coin will be totally fresh if it ever comes back on the market.
Personally, I'm a big fan of multi-generational collections and think it's great it will be off the market for a long time. I just hope they get a TrueView for it
@specialist said:
colonel: FACT: I have SOLD more $1 million plus coins to more DIFFERENT collectors then any dealer EVER has. Yeah, I know something. Sorry old chap.
Time for this thread to end. Its off course.
I never said anything to the contrary, I just know more about a few things than you do. How deep is your sense of humiliation at not being recognized as powerful that you take offense at such a triviality? Have I ever said I know more about today's market? At least your part of it?
Remember you made it to my level 15 years after I did. Rookie, you were a wannabe when this old chap was a Master of the Universe. Now I'm a has-been and you're Queen of the Hill.
What's your partner say? /Yawn ?
I muscled John Pittman. Once. I chose, and choose my battles. He knew mega-shitloads more than I.
I cooperated with and competed against Dave Akers. He knew even more.
You will never catch up, even as you exceed me in other things.
You gotta stop snorting your own Kool-Aid. All the grandiosely great eventually come down to Earth. Trust me on that. @notTheRealDonnaChump is not your best mode.
Now shut up and I'll pay for your massage tomorrow.
Or else
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@specialist said:
colonel: FACT: I have SOLD more $1 million plus coins to more DIFFERENT collectors then any dealer EVER has. Yeah, I know something. Sorry old chap.
Time for this thread to end. Its off course.
Yawn.
@ColonelJessup made me do it... (just kidding with both of you)
@specialist said:
We are in talks w/the ANA to display it this summer
That would be awesome
Will it be kept in the gold pinch slab?
Seems like it would be classy if they did a single coin gold foil insert for it with the Black Cat provenance.
Even better to crack it out from the plastic, put it on a revolving (and tipping at the same time) display with very bright lights to show it off in all of its splendor.
Both of us came back from vacation a day too early
What vacation? I was at work using Google Translate on a bunch of Russian medals.
Neat! How do you input Cyrillic characters on a normal American/US keyboard?
Google translate has a screen with the characters. You can type the Russian letters on one side and the translation comes up in English. One problem is some of the letters are "artsy" on the coin and do not match exactly. Another problem is a few letters on coins are not in the Google lis @cameonut2011 said:
While much of the banter on this thread is definitely out of my league, it has been entertaining to get a glimpse at how knowledgeable some of our fellow posters are.
Our hobby owes a debt of gratitude to the likes of the Colonel, Laura and the Cameo crew.
I am not quite sure how selling million dollar coins somehow makes one a better scholar or numismatist, but more power to threatened egos.
This thread has gotten off the tracks and it seems about all that can reasonably said has been.
FWIW, the aesthetics of J-1776 obverse leave a bit to be desired. Very heavy mandible and jaw structure, nose a bit overwhelming. Think I'd rather have a lovely house on the beach in a secret tropical setting....Relative values, and that does bring the discussion full circle as to whether the OP coin is somehow "worth it". Obviously to the buyer, though I'd confess to rather being the seller...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
The idea of placing a coin or coins into a trust for the benefit of future generations of the current owner of the coin (even if it the J-1776 Pattern) on the surface seems odd.
Placing this coin into a trust does not insure that the coin will remain in the family after the death of the current collector that owns same. It is an asset that will be inherited. If it is inherited by one person it may be kept by that person if he or she is a collector. If he or she is not a collector then it may likely be sold.
If it is inherited by multiple persons, coownership of a non income producing asset usually results in a sale of the asset since most if not all coowners would like to realize the value of the inherited asset in order to use same to meet other needs, wants and desires.
Of course the current owner of the coin can consult with family members (or not) and determine to structure his or her estate in a manner that meets his or her goals, including tax planning in order to minimize the estate and other taxes that will have to be paid his or her death. From a financial planning perspective putting this coin into a trust may make perfect sense.
Comments
Even better to put it in a tank of salt water like at the aquarium?
Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm just happy it's going to be displayed.
Hype, shipwreck affect, just sayin'........
Just like the 1933 Double Eagles at last year's ANA
What vacation? I was at work using Google Translate on a bunch of Russian medals.
.
I think they should sell giclee paintings of the coin using the PCGS glamour shots.
And I think Legend should hang one in their offices
My thought is that getting people to start appreciating coins as art can help increase interest in coins.
It would definitely be a good story for posterity/any grandchildren. "Hey Laura, remember when we sold that for $282,000!!!" I would brag about that one too.
Neat! How do you input Cyrillic characters on a normal American/US keyboard?
You’re really starting to cross the line. Quit being an ass
Google translate has a screen with the characters. You can type the Russian letters on one side and the translation comes up in English. One problem is some of the letters are "artsy" on the coin and do not match exactly. Another problem is a few letters on coins are not in the Google list.
Sometimes I come off the wrong way in text. I meant that in jest, which you had no way of knowing when written in dry prose. Sorry. Nevertheless, I stand by my assertion that it was a strong price when guide is $175,000 for any coin in a 67 holder.
How many of those have color? How many of ANY gold coin has color? Whether you or I appreciate that color palette, it’s still near unique. Celebrate it for what it is, rather than denigrate it for what it is not.
The devil is making me post this: That coin IS WHAT IT IS - including its color and uniqueness. I'm happy for all involved with its sale price.
Ive never been that interested in coins with wild toning. However, when Black Cat shows his collection to someone---I guarantee this one will stand out, will be one that everyone wants to see first hand, will have one of the most interesting stories attached to it, and certainly be one of the coins I would love to see. From that perspective, I understand the desire to own it and the price it realized.
@Zoins said: "Even better to put it in a tank of salt water like at the aquarium? Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm just happy it's going to be displayed."
I like it! Not salt water but definitely in a tank of distilled water with sand, etc. The water will magnify the coin and the liquid will highlight the color under the bright lighting.
I believe the newest slabs are waterproof...
My YouTube Channel
I thought this was understood...Crack it out first. IMO, the holder it is in is unattractive and therefore distracts from the coin.
I agree. A normal slab I would prefer, too.
My YouTube Channel
Not only do I agree, but I have proof that $284K was both a score for the seller AND a score for the buyer not seller.
Useful metrics None exist
Let's throw out the Norweb Pacquet 67 for its gazillionaire tendency.
Further available anecdotal evidence - One other MS67 of the type exists, a rich orange gold 1861 which Eric Streiner "made" sometime in the very late 80's from the only 66 of that date.
It sold for $352,500 Stacks Bowers 7/13 lot 4585 - now current PCGS Price Guide at $350,000.
It's tomorrow. See continuation below.
Nice to get two scores for the seller
I respectfully disagree:
There are 17 type 1 Liberty Double Eagles in PCGS MS67 and a single coin in MS67+. Of those, 15 MS67 coins and the MS67+ are 1857-S coins. Many of them can be found online and also hail from the SS Central America. Many of them (also available as True Views or through auction images) have cleaner fields, CAC stickers, and PCGS special labels. One of them even has some very minor coloration or "toning." The coin is the "common date" (tongue in cheek) for MS67 type I Libs and is not top pop for the date; thus, it is more surprising to me that it would be an auction outlier (toning excepted - I'll get there in a minute).
I think your comparison to the 1861 $20 (pop 1/0 - finest by 2 points) and 1861 $20 pacquet (pop 1/0 - finest by 6 points and only 2 known) is not apt. The 1861 coins look superior to my eye and have cleaner fields. Moreover as the finest known with no known equals, you would expect that the coins would fetch much more than a "common" date 67 from a hoard not to mention that the quality is better IMHO (toning excepted).
There is ample data to support the PCGS Price Guide value. Some of the prices below may be for minor varieties which shouldn't affect the price, or if it does, should only increase it over the generic subject coin. (Actually 2 appear to be Spiked Shield too like the Legend coin). Keep in mind these are SS Central America, PCGS, CAC, and in MS67 holders. Some of them and the True Views of their cousins also look to have cleaner fields than the Legend piece. Here are some of the examples I found:
1857-S SS Central America PCGS MS67 CAC - August 7, 2014, Heritage Auctions - $152,750
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/1857-s-20-spiked-shield-ms67-pcgs-cac-variety-20a/a/1208-5692.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
1857-S SS Central America PCGS MS67 CAC - January 2012, Heritage, $138,000
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/1857-s-20-spiked-shield-ms67-pcgs-cac/a/1166-5034.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
1857-S SS Central America PCGS MS67 PCGS MS67 *CAC, January 2008, $103,500
(The title says CAC, but the slab is missing a sticker, not sure what happened there)
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/1857-s-20-ms67-pcgs-cac/a/454-3306.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
1857-S SS Central America PCGS MS67 - Stack's December 2000, Lot #1504, realized - $63,250
(There was no CAC way back then as you obviously know). I agree this is too old to be of use.
With auction records in the $100k-$150k range, I do not think my comment or the Price Guide is based on nothing. $150k-$170k is a reasonable expectation for a retail price. Again, the pedigree is the same, there are special labels, the coins are CAC/PCGS, etc. The coins were also clean mark wise. The only meaningful distinction here is the toning.
Color bumping was suggested by TDN; however, this practice is usually for coins that almost all would agree are superior. This coin was controversial (i.e. like it or hate it - no in between based on the in hand comments) and usually such coins do not receive a color bump so there is a dissent as to whether it should sell for the same as cleaner 67s. Assuming that we accept it as solid or high end for a 67, then the extra $132k or so was for the toning. Fifty percent is not a trivial color premium on a six figure coin.
We can also argue about time. The last few auction records are stable. Given the lack of top pop status, relatively "common date" status as a hoard coin, and overall deterioration of the coin market, I do not think it is reasonable to assume a $132k jump in value. I, thus, disagree that there are no useful metrics.
It is not unreasonable to criticize my tone which may have been unprofessional (although half-hearted and triggered by an old thread containing comments by his business partner). The substance of my comment, however, was not wrong. The price was strong, and yes, if I was an auction house, I'd advertise it as such. If you sold a coin for $282k when the other examples were selling for $100k-$150k, why wouldn't you tout it?
The purchaser was revealed to be a wealthy collector who won't notice the money expended is even missing. As long as he is happy, I'm happy for him. I would not necessarily conclude that it was a score for the buyer (assuming that you meant a likely appreciation in value) as that is too speculative. Only time will tell.
@tradedollarnut
In Google search:
Search criteria site:forums.collectors.com
Use Google to search this forum and you will do much better.
https://www.google.com/search?q=oreville+1875+site:forums.collectors.com&oq=oreville+1875+site:forums.collectors.com&aqs=chrome..69i57.13077j0j7&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
5th result down on a generic search for oreville 1875 I think is what you wanted to find
It's tomorrow.
I want to express my personal disappointment with @cameonut2011's decision to use a very clearly incomplete 10,000 word essay on this subject as a starting point. I happen to agree with some of what he said and thank him for saving me the typing. Abusive PM sent, Now, because you are a wise-ass with good intentions, I will correct some of the assumptions you made without reading paragraphs effin' number 1 plus putative numbers 17 and 23.
Gazillionaire seems to separate this from the pack. I was, as usual, overly subtle (for you). Sorry
I've known this coin since having seen it at Norweb, bought by Jerry Bauman of MTB for $550K (IIRC).
I've known the current owner for 40 years. He believes, and rightly so, that it ranks with Teddy's coin as being eligible for the $10MM club. It doesn't compare to anything. It takes nothing less than a totally careless misreading to imagine that I meant otherwise.
If you've been following me, you should already have figured out that, throughout the 80's, I was one of the top 20 been-there-done-that traders and auction buyers as well as being JA's first grader at NGC.
If I were to further expand on the 61 regular issue in 67, it would only be to REPEAT that I knew Eric Streiner (I bought Norman Stack's Gem (then MS64 1795 $10 from him) made the coin and you really should just assume that, like this, the raw King of Siam set, Garrett, Eliasberg, Norweb, Pittman, Childs, Bass, the Apostrophe's, I saw it ALL in-hand and as it happened.
. Lucky me. Both seriously and sardonically. The confluences, the opportunities... never happened before and never will again.
And who, and colluded and partnered and competed with and against the best aggregated group of skilled knowledgeable dealers to ever assemble in major auction rooms. if it's a iconic headliner from that period, assume personally acquired knowledge
I could go on, I could make more points about the "Super" and sound like I care.
But I care less and less, because so few of you are actually here to pick up some knowledge.
There's always fun and games, and I like to have sometimes-silly fun too.
But, today, rather than further wasting my time expounding upon my self-pity about wasting my time, I will explore the experience of "Pfffffttt"
For better or worse, there are only 2 coins in the $10MM club, the Cardinal-TDN 1794 Dollar and the 2012 Australia $1M face value coin.
If this is another $10MM coin, it would be great to see that realized at some point, however even Laura mentioned the coin market may not be ready for the $10MM level. It would be great if it happened.
If J-1776 were to come up for public sale, I believe that it would reach $10,000,000, fairly easily.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You are now officially an nit-picking idiot (NPI). And, since Laurie only rarely has the cojones to disagree, knowing me longer and how well I marshal my factoids and how she runs like the wind from my arguments, why would you imagine I would consider her THE authority. My guess is that I've known (and done business with) almost all if not every member of the Million Dollar Coin Club panel for most of 40 years, should they have been around that long.
Would you, today, call the Carter-(et al) '94 a $10M coin? Today? Negatory. Is it only a member of the $7.5M club?.
Are there four of those on the planet? Five? NPI
Gazillionaire is a nuance, not an amount. It's in the sui generis hierarchy, which is without hierarchy.
While not in the hierarchy, the Super is sui generis. There is no other US coin that even suggests its existence. I didn't say I liked the coin. I'm simply saying it's beyond very special, as did @tradedollarnut and @specialist. Since JA is always complaining that I'm too hard on her, she might appreciate that my point suggests that her empathy for the Black Cat as someone with a "Precious" is greater than you apparently have for some poor SOB who, no matter how poor or wealthy, is carrying around a coin Jones on his back.
Lotta nit picking idiots here? You betcha! Next NPI, have at it!!!
A personal Pffffftt to this thread, and, hopefully, many others I might foolishly carpal myself out on.
I love me some well rested Colonel
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@MFeld
Mark, I presume you’re referring to the 1907 Saint Gaudens Pattern $20 Gold (pictured👇below).
(Image Credit: PCGS CoinFacts)
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
The owner, who also has three Extremely High Reliefs, the Norweb 1911-D $10, which many graded raw MS68 at that sale and a lot of other similarly classy Saint-Gaudens stuff, has placed this specific coin in a multi-generational trust, I think my old thermonuclear 1907 Wire Edge $10 from Christie's 1987 (graded 67 in '88 or so) is in there too. He had my old '21 Saint (MS64), but the last time I saw it as part of his holdings was likely over a dozen years ago when it was offered back to me. I bought it from @MrEureka (a year-set of Saints has some really neat P-Mints) and sold to Mr. V thru Triple in 1988.
Teddy's Coin could eventually be the first $100 million coin, but maybe not till the year an off-quality Gutenberg or super-quality Duesenberg tallies $250M.
Side bet: Laurie has a customer who's already offered over $10M and been turned down.
Andy, was that Saint set Karler-Goldman-Garrett-you-me "Gone in 60 Seconds" in 24 hours at the '88 ANA?
Please add the rest of the numerals to my moniker to prevent the other poster from going on a tirade.
If J-1776 were to come up for public sale, I believe that it would reach $10,000,000, fairly easily.
Legend Numismatics offered $15 million for this coin about 6 years ago and the owner laughed at us. Sadly, it is in a trust now for his grand kids we've been told
Big ticket coins are suddenly strong again. Things have been beaten down so bad you forget how cheap coins are
That was, as you know, a sucker bet. You've mentioned it before, Remarkably, we agree (mostly) on most things
I will PM you a funny story that will give you the opportunity to laugh at the conniptions of one of your favorite rivals while keeping "Mr. V's" privacy intact, which is part of the fun of the story.
I wish PCGS would fix the search function that was built into the software. I too long gave up on it and have resorted to Google to spider search the forums.
I love to learn. I wasn't dismissing your discussion of the 1861 coins in 67. I was only saying that comparing those two coins to any of the 1857-S coins in 67 is sort of like comparing a gem 1893-S Morgan to a gem 1881-S (all other factors equal). Sometimes tangents in a thread can be quite educational and useful (compare the Indian proof gold NCS discussion in the superb gem quarter eagle thread in the last couple of weeks which I learned from - thank you for indulging all of my questions in that thread!).
I think there is a certain amount of emotion that goes into coin grading and coin collecting in general. when we see a coin, we react almost immediately in some emotional degree. certain coins have the power to evoke that emotion more, much more, than others. for some in the Hobby this "Shipwreck Gold" probably has that "power" when they hear, read or think about it. it is just too nostalgic and romantic for some to bear.
toning has the same affect, a series or design can have that affect. for me right now it seems to be certain Medals and the look of a near Gem/Gem quality Walker. they "get" me.
I rate this thread EEE+.
Educational, Enlightening and Entertaining, plus a unique looking coin with lots of history attached to it.
Looks like I got under your skin there Colonel. I agree the coin is special and I'm sure Black Cat would love it.
My point is that $10MM is a special price level the hobby has been waiting to surpassed again since 2013. Since it's an important level and has been mentioned as such for the growth of the hobby, in my mind, it's better not to cheapen it up with "ownership adds a point" type of speculation. I'm eagerly looking forward to the day when the next coin does cross the $10MM level.
As for the Carter/Cardinal/TDN dollar, are you claiming there are 4-5 first struck silver dollars now? To me, "first" means one here
Again, I think this is a great coin and we should be celebrating that.
I hope "sadly" is being said in jest. You, as someone who loves and praises "fresh" coins, should appreciate that coin will be totally fresh if it ever comes back on the market.
Personally, I'm a big fan of multi-generational collections and think it's great it will be off the market for a long time. I just hope they get a TrueView for it
colonel: FACT: I have SOLD more $1 million plus coins to more DIFFERENT collectors then any dealer EVER has. Yeah, I know something. Sorry old chap.
Time for this thread to end. Its off course.
Does anyone know why this design was never used? The Mint should make a revival of this pattern on a gold commemorative.
I never said anything to the contrary, I just know more about a few things than you do. How deep is your sense of humiliation at not being recognized as powerful that you take offense at such a triviality? Have I ever said I know more about today's market? At least your part of it?
Remember you made it to my level 15 years after I did. Rookie, you were a wannabe when this old chap was a Master of the Universe. Now I'm a has-been and you're Queen of the Hill.
What's your partner say? /Yawn ?
I muscled John Pittman. Once. I chose, and choose my battles. He knew mega-shitloads more than I.
I cooperated with and competed against Dave Akers. He knew even more.
You will never catch up, even as you exceed me in other things.
You gotta stop snorting your own Kool-Aid. All the grandiosely great eventually come down to Earth. Trust me on that.
@notTheRealDonnaChump is not your best mode.
Now shut up and I'll pay for your massage tomorrow.
Or else
Yawn.
@ColonelJessup made me do it...
(just kidding with both of you)
I have no idea on why not, but count me in for at least one if they ever do.
While much of the banter on this thread is definitely out of my league, it has been entertaining to get a glimpse at how knowledgeable some of our fellow posters are.
Our hobby owes a debt of gratitude to the likes of the Colonel, Laura and the Cameo crew.
I am not quite sure how selling million dollar coins somehow makes one a better scholar or numismatist, but more power to threatened egos.
This thread has gotten off the tracks and it seems about all that can reasonably said has been.
FWIW, the aesthetics of J-1776 obverse leave a bit to be desired. Very heavy mandible and jaw structure, nose a bit overwhelming. Think I'd rather have a lovely house on the beach in a secret tropical setting....Relative values, and that does bring the discussion full circle as to whether the OP coin is somehow "worth it". Obviously to the buyer, though I'd confess to rather being the seller...
Well, just Love coins, period.
The idea of placing a coin or coins into a trust for the benefit of future generations of the current owner of the coin (even if it the J-1776 Pattern) on the surface seems odd.
Placing this coin into a trust does not insure that the coin will remain in the family after the death of the current collector that owns same. It is an asset that will be inherited. If it is inherited by one person it may be kept by that person if he or she is a collector. If he or she is not a collector then it may likely be sold.
If it is inherited by multiple persons, coownership of a non income producing asset usually results in a sale of the asset since most if not all coowners would like to realize the value of the inherited asset in order to use same to meet other needs, wants and desires.
Of course the current owner of the coin can consult with family members (or not) and determine to structure his or her estate in a manner that meets his or her goals, including tax planning in order to minimize the estate and other taxes that will have to be paid his or her death. From a financial planning perspective putting this coin into a trust may make perfect sense.