The cream rises to the top and thankfully in this show, we have good supporting actresses and actors. NGC does a lot of good things and some really odd things. So does ours truly, imo. It's business before logic sometimes.
The only reason I use plastic is because people do not trust me or any dealers with coins. I wonder why
<< <i>Here are a few examples of crosses I have had:
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45 1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45 1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53 1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50 Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded. >>
With all due respect, this doesn't mean anything with respect to the ability of either PCGS or NGC to grade. On any or all of the coins, the following could be true:
1- PCGS undergraded them 2- NGC overgraded them
3- PCGS undergraded them and NGC overgraded them 4- PCGS was right 5- NGC was right
An elementary understanding of statistics and the coin market can easily show how anyone can skew these results. If the coins were sold in the NGC holders at the price consistent with the same grade at PCGS, then you overpaid. If they were sold at the same price as the PCGS grade, then you paid the right price. That scale is simply set on who is the baseline. If we call NGC the baseline, then the reverse is true. There are plenty of reasons why you, or anyone else, could end up with numerous coins that would not cross from NGC to PCGS:
1- In this day and age where everyone wants the best score, you paid too much for the coin. You convinced yourself that you were getting a PCGS [grade X] in an NGC [grade X] holder. 2- When an NGC coin is set to PCGS as a crossover, PCGS wants to show that they're stricter, so they grade the coin lower. Human nature dictates the graders do this, even if they try not to. If you want to be better than your competitor, there's no easier way than, when given the opportunity to say flat out, "our competitor has lower standards," you take it. 3- You're unlucky
But I doubt it's just #3. My collection has a large number of NGC coins, because I've found coins I like in NGC holders and saw no reason to cross them. I spent a lot of time looking for very high quality examples, and reject the vast majority of what I see in any holder as not meeting my personal standard. And that's the key. No matter what the holder says, whatever company the holder may be from, I am the final decision maker on all purchases. I don't let a label dictate what I do or don't like. All that matters to me is the coin and the price. If the coin meets my standard and is the right price, then I buy it. That could mean I "overpay" for an NGC coin that is exceptional, but that's fine.
The problem with the Kool Aid in this thread is that the vast majority of responses indicate an issue with NGC coins only with respect to the grades said coins may receive at PCGS. That means people are buying plastic and not coins. For the amount of money people spend on these little metal discs, I continue to be amazed at how much responsibility is placed on the grading company and not the collector. The grading companies most certainly have their place, but if you only know what you want based on how someone else describes it, I dare say perhaps you don't really know. >>
Awesome Jeremy. Everyone should read, then re-read this reply by Jeremy.
Ankur - Why did you buy a 37 CBH that was labeled AU 55 when it was really a 45? Were you not able to see the coin was not a 55 or is 45 maybe a little off ? Why in the world did you buy the 57 Flyer labeled AU 58 if it was only a 45? Just that question only? The 35 and 36 CBH being 5 points off in grade? You should have looked at the coins and known immediately they were overgraded and reduced the price accordingly. The bust dime. No comment, they are too small to grade accurately. A 32 CBH from 53 to 45. Again -What were you thinking buying an XF coin mislabeled that much. Learn how to grade man ! Problem solved.
<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders for cross-overs and non crossed. These were absolutely gorgeous. Since then, I won't even bother with NGC !!! >>
Are you sure there isn't politics involved here? Crack them out and try again. You did say they were Absolutely gorgeous, didn't you?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
AnkurJ-- thanks for starting this thread, you knew from the o.p. you were going to have to take some knocks, and you have, but I have found the replies and the discussion extremely useful. Thanks to all who have taken the time to share your insights and to compose well thought out posts, it has been very helpful to this beginner.
<< <i>Wow the kool-aid river is flowing high in here >>
You ain't kidding!!!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I may get flamed for saying this, but I am done with NGC
The reason for TPGs in the first place was to insure a known quality in coins so that "sight unseen trading" could take place in the coin market, right? I'm not convinced that this objective has ever really been actualized.
I do understand that you do buy the coin and not the holder. Nevertheless, when I buy a TPG graded coin, I expect some semblance of consistancy and quality. In most cases, I've found that my own standards are more exacting than any TPGs standards, when I am considering high-grade Moderns.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it. Or is PCGS wrong? Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
It should have crossed imho. But I don't work in Newport Beach! I'm just posting it FWIW!! Beans on NGC coins means nothing to our host. >>
Thanks for the honest reply. I knew you would.
Without talking negatively about our hosts, the OP as well as quite a few of the other Kool Aid drinkers should read and re-read this one also. And then take it to the next level and consider the possibility of what it might mean.
<< <i>Here are a few examples of crosses I have had:
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45 1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45 1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53 1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50 Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded. >>
Ankur ... seriously, consider a grading class. You are spending a lot of money on labels. As somebody who was trained in critical thinking as part of your professional education, the evidence should be obvious to you. Based on the few examples above, you could have paid for the basic grading course!
Oh, and to comment on your NGC - ANA grading connection ... NGC paid the most for ANA's endorsement (sort of numismatic sluttery on ANA's part). NGC does not follow ANA grading standards, but they use their own standards just as the other major TPGs. What a grading class at the ANA will teach you is how to grade in the reality of TODAY'S market, not the market years ago when the ANA "revised" their grading standards.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>....or maybe the NGC graders couldn't tell strike from wear. >>
Perhaps NGC used market grading and thought such an extremely weak strike with so much missing detail (why doesn't Liberty have a hand?) is only worth AU55 money.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>....or maybe the NGC graders couldn't tell strike from wear. >>
Perhaps NGC used market grading and thought such an extremely weak strike with so much missing detail (why doesn't Liberty have a hand?) is only worth AU55 money. >>
And I was thinking that PCGS thought the coin was a 58, but should be priced at the 62 level. NGC does that a lot with Standing Liberty quarters in my experience.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
For example, late last year I purchased a coin in a NGC 53 holder. I graded the coin 50 but would have been satisfied owning the coin, at that price, in a PCGS 45 or 50 holder. In this case, I misjudged and the coin crossed at 53.
Same here. I bought a coin in an NGC 63 holder about two years ago. I bought it because the coin was a perfect fit for my collection and I was happy to own it regardless of the holder or the grade, the coin is just beautiful. I thought I would loose a point on the cross but I was wrong, the coin crossed at the same grade.
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it. Or is PCGS wrong? Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
Which is more likely: both NGC and CAC were wrong or PCGS was wrong? What would the result be if this coin were submitted raw?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>That "genius" might be someone who didn't want to risk a bodybag for some reason..... >>
If you send any coin for an upgrade in one holder or another, without the stipulation of no grade degradation, then the coin could possibly "gennie" or BB, right. As I stated, if you are sending the coin in it's NGC holder willing to accept whatever PCGS grade that it gets, couldn't it possibly get a "gennie" or BB? I really have not heard anyone complaining of getting their NGC coins BB'd, while I am sure it has happened. I'm just saying that, although now impossible, I wonder what grades would have been given had the coins in question been sent in cracked out rather than in plastic. Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it. Or is PCGS wrong? Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
Which is more likely: both NGC and CAC were wrong or PCGS was wrong? What would the result be if this coin were submitted raw? >>
Can an opinion on a subjective matter be wrong? >>
Yes. While grading can be subjective, I've see raw coins that were grossly overgraded by dealers. I saw a commem once at a coin show that was heavily polished and the dealer graded it as a Choice Proof.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it. Or is PCGS wrong? Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
Which is more likely: both NGC and CAC were wrong or PCGS was wrong? What would the result be if this coin were submitted raw? >>
Can an opinion on a subjective matter be wrong? >>
Yes. While grading can be subjective, I've see raw coins that were grossly overgraded by dealers. I saw a commem once at a coin show that was heavily polished and the dealer graded it as a Choice Proof. >>
In this context, we are talking about the difference between an XF-45 and an AU-50 or 53. Your anecdote does not belong in this discussion.
<< <i>Your complaint is based on the assumption that both services' grading standards are the same. Do you know for a fact this is true? >>
Why shouldn't they be grading to a common standard? Is there a Sheldon scale for PCGS and a different one for NGC? Does 99.9999% fine mean something different to Englehard than it does to Johnson-Matthey?
In my opinion grading is subjective. An art if you will. One man's (read grader) opinion may differ from another's. The ANA's grading classes are designed to help you interpet what both of the major grading services see in a coin and how that pertains to today's market place. There are plenty of coins that create quite a stir in the classes, even amongst the instructors. PCGS, NGC, as well as the ANA's own grading set alike.
With the amount of information available to todays collectors via many channels (ANA grading classes for one), the playing field is becoming more even everyday. Use the tools available, just as you do in your profession, and you will see your success rate climb. If you don't you will continue to be left behind, in the dark...
Having PCGS, NGC, and independent dealers as instructors gives the students the ability to learn from each of the major grading services what they are looking for in a coin. This, I think, is a good thing.
And for those of you, young numismatist included, who don't think you can afford it, I say you can't afford not to. There are hardship scholarships available to adults through the ANA, virtually all YNs that apply for a scholarship gets one, and several other numismatics associations and coin clubs have scholarships for their members. Heck even the PNG sends collectors to the summer seminar.
I have been told that instructors are told to check their egos at the door. As hard as this might sound to you, sometimes it is even harder for the collector. Without doing this though makes it even more difficult for students and collectors to be open minded enough to learn.
Think about it. What do you have to lose, except maybe a week or so of your life in beautiful Colorado Springs?
Fair enough, but there are some nice, properly graded coins in NGC holders.
MS-67, CAC
MS-65
MS-65
VF-35
AU-53
“Optimistic grades” can be found in any TPG holder. The secret is that you have to know how to grade coins. When you do, you will save a lot of money, not just from the mistakes and under grades, but also because of brand loyalty to place premiums on certain kinds of holders. Buy the coin, not the holder.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Just playing devil's advocate here...but maybe NGC is correctly grading while the other major service (who shall remain nameless) is deliberately undergrading crossovers in an attempt to sway market opinion and give NGC a bad rep among dealers and collectors. It wouldn't be the first time that the marketing/finance aspects of a company got to trump business ethics.
And PS...I buy from both and see both under and overgraded coins in both type slabs.
<< <i>I have been told that instructors are told to check their egos at the door. As hard as this might sound to you, sometimes it is even harder for the collector. Without doing this though makes it even more difficult for students and collectors to be open minded enough to learn. >>
And those students who do just that, reap the reward of knowledge and confidence.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>For NGC holdered coins that crossed PCGS in the same grade, my hunch is that they would be very strong for the grade....maybe even gold bean strong. >>
There is nothing that I have seen that would lend support to that statement.
<< <i>Just playing devil's advocate here...but maybe NGC is correctly grading while the other major service (who shall remain nameless) is deliberately undergrading crossovers in an attempt to sway market opinion and give NGC a bad rep among dealers and collectors. It wouldn't be the first time that the marketing/finance aspects of a company got to trump business ethics.
And PS...I buy from both and see both under and overgraded coins in both type slabs. >>
My view is that many of the nice NGC coins get crossed, and the "mistakes" stay in NGC holders. I'm not the only one who has noted that. I've heard it from dealers as well.
And yes, I've seen under graded and over graded coins in both brands of slabs.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>I will post images of the bust halves in question. Many of them I feel are undergraded by PCGS. >>
You wrote the following in your OP: "But it seems to me the newer holders contain many coins that are overgraded by more than one grade. I have seen multiple examples of this."
So what are you trying to say? Your whole thread is about NGC overgrading, but here your best example also involves PCGS undergrading. What sense does it make to say NGC is consistently wrong if you're also going to say that your baseline, PCGS, is also consistently wrong but with a different bias?
<< <i>
<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders for cross-overs and non crossed. These were absolutely gorgeous. Since then, I won't even bother with NGC !!! >>
Are you sure there isn't politics involved here? Crack them out and try again. You did say they were Absolutely gorgeous, didn't you? >>
Not necessarily relevant. He said the coins were gorgeous. He didn't say they were gem. Lots of coins are gorgeous for what they are, but that doesn't define their grade. Politics very well may play a role here, but this goes right back to what I said before. Look at the coins, not the plastic. The coins didn't change because the holder changed (or didn't change).
<< <i>So what are you trying to say? Your whole thread is about NGC overgrading, but here your best example also involves PCGS undergrading. What sense does it make to say NGC is consistently wrong if you're also going to say that your baseline, PCGS, is also consistently wrong but with a different bias? >>
Jeremy ... please, please ... PLEASE stop using that big MIT brain of yours! Your logic is overpowering!
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
The last thing the duopoly of PCGS and NGC would want is a strict industry grading standard, that would ruin all of the resubmission revenue. TPG's were created for the dealers, and PCGS and NGC have done well by marketing to different segments, along with subtly changing their grading "standards" (or more accurately, opinions) over time. That keeps the game going.
Very nice coins can be found in either NGC or PCGS holders.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
1. learn how to grade and don't stop practicing the skill 2. learn how to negotiate purchases and sales 3. buy what pleases you
the rest is all marketing and market perception. the fact that people are saying you have a better chance a nice grade by cracking coins out instead of crossing them makes me think this is especially true.
I'll also add to my Devil's Advocate role with this comment...it wasn't very long ago that a 1 grade nmueric deviation would not result in a massive difference in price...and that's still the case in many instances. But maybe...just maybe...it's the industry and collectors who are expecting absolute "perfection" when dealing with a subjective art, namely grading (and you people who think you can tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 with a regular loupe know who you are).
Until a computer program is developed, and both TPGs decide to use the same program without human intervention, these issues are unavoidable.
Lots of excellent points made by many people. But my bottom line is still this. The market says an equivalent or slightly finer NGC coin, even beaned, will bring less money, sometimes significanlty less money than its counterpart. So one can be very selective in their NGC choices based on many years of grading experience, and still lose out. That's a personal choice that each one has to make. You can be right, but in the end the market not only fail to reward you for your keen selections, it may punish you. This is the paradox that I can't quite get over. I don't care how many grading seminars you attend, this issue will still be staring you in the face when you get back. It still tells me to buy nice coins but ensure that they are in the right holders. PCGS and NGC each know how to grade fairly consistently to their own standards, as does each one of us. The problem remains of bringing those slight differences to market when it's time to sell. This is where it can all fall apart even if you did everything right up to that point. It seems to me that NGC coins are already starting out with a 1/3 rd of a point handicap out of the gate, regardless of the coin's quality. Guilt by association. In this case buyers are ignoring the assigned grade, ignoring the coin, and starting from somewhere else totally unknown to me. This wasn't in the charter back in 1986-1987. I was always happy with my NGC purchases, esp. those that stickered. What I wasn't so happy with was how the market treated them pricewise. It's also been instructive to see some of them start to appear in higher holders, not that it surprises me any.
How many all NGC registry sets have we seen come to the national auctions each year? None that I can think of. I think back to Dick Osburn's seated half set at last summer's ANA. Only 3% of the NGC coins stickered while 38% of the PCGS ones did. Those numbers fall far outside any bell curve and outside anyone picking purely at random. 55% of the 150 coins in that set were NGC.
1 pt gradations in MS63-68 18th to early 20th century type coins has basically been a doubling in price since 1986. And I would contend that it probably goes all the way back to 1980 or the late 1970's. 1 pt in grade makes a huge difference. It meant more in the 1988-1990 era when the supergrades of 66-68 were rarely assigned as they are today. A doubling in price is serious money. That's why 2 tenths of a point can easily mean 20% in value.
Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
Then make your offer and move along. All you are paying for is their opinion. iIf you don't like their opinion, either make your own, or drink kool-aid exclusively.
Unfortunately, the most blatant, obviously over graded coins in my collection are in PCGS holders. I'm sure all of us possess both under and over graded material in all types of holders. Personally, I don't trust anyones grading other than my own. After all, I'm the one that has to be happy with my purchases.
<< <i>If you send any coin for an upgrade in one holder or another, without the stipulation of no grade degradation, then the coin could possibly "gennie" or BB, right. As I stated, if you are sending the coin in it's NGC holder willing to accept whatever PCGS grade that it gets, couldn't it possibly get a "gennie" or BB? I really have not heard anyone complaining of getting their NGC coins BB'd, while I am sure it has happened. >>
I do not believe this is correct.
If you try a cross at any grade and PCGS feels it should BB it will be returned in the original holder. Lance.
In slabs of BOTH top tier grading companies you can find:
- beautiful coins - ugly coins - overgraded coins - undergraded coins - problem coins in normal holders - problem-free coins in problem holders
As one forum member recently said, "Cool coins are cool coins regardless of grade and designations." People get so caught up in whether a coin is the "correct" slab or not. How many times have we heard it: "Buy the coin, not the holder."
You know what I do when I'm looking for coins to buy? I completely ignore the slab and I make my decision solely based on if I like the coin's merits compared to its price. I couldn't care less what some anonymous-to-me group of coin graders thinks; it's about what *I* think. As long as I purchase according to this standard, I'll be happy with my coins and I should be fine when it comes time to sell. By playing the crossover game, one has to know that they take a risk: you may come out ahead, but you may also come out behind. If you take the risk and then complain about the results, you have nobody to blame but yourself. If some people refuse to buy coins in other TPG slabs, that's all the better for me because it means less competition for some coins.
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
"Then make your offer and move along. All you are paying for is their opinion. iIf you don't like their opinion, either make your own, or drink kool-aid exclusively."
Exactly. Most coins that collectors are chasing after aren't rare, so if a dealer refuses your offer, move on. OTOH, you will likely have to pay an 'opportunity cost' when you run across an item that you realize is infrequently traded---this is one reason why spending time studying specialized aspects of numismatics is important.
There are dealers who actually arrive at a grade opinion independent of what the slab insert states, sometimes acknowledging that the coin is overgraded. This is a key reason why figuring out who the good dealers are is a priority. Stay away from dealers who merely push slabs across counters (QDB terms these dealers 'monkeys').
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>If you send any coin for an upgrade in one holder or another, without the stipulation of no grade degradation, then the coin could possibly "gennie" or BB, right. As I stated, if you are sending the coin in it's NGC holder willing to accept whatever PCGS grade that it gets, couldn't it possibly get a "gennie" or BB? I really have not heard anyone complaining of getting their NGC coins BB'd, while I am sure it has happened. >>
I do not believe this is correct.
If you try a cross at any grade and PCGS feels it should BB it will be returned in the original holder. Lance. >>
Thats only if you select "do not holder genuine".
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
When I was dealer, I freely admitted it when a coin was over graded IMO. The price started with the market price for the actual coin grade, and we worked from there. Sometimes I got coins raw, had them graded and they came back over graded. Sometimes I had to take something in trade from a collector - customer.
Here's an example. The 1829 to 1834 Reduced Diameter Capped Bust half eagle is one of the toughest type coins in the whole U.S. series. It is the toughest half eagle type coin by far. This 1834 piece is the "common" date and variety with an estimated 40 or so pieces known in all grades. NGC called this an MS-61, which it is not. But it is worth AU money. I paid less than AU money for this piece and was very happy. This is a type that can cost a six figure number to fill the slot.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
How many all NGC registry sets have we seen come to the national auctions each year? None that I can think of. I think back to Dick Osburn's seated half set at last summer's ANA. Only 3% of the NGC coins stickered while 38% of the PCGS ones did. Those numbers fall far outside any bell curve and outside anyone picking purely at random. 55% of the 150 coins in that set were NGC.
Comments
NGC does a lot of good things and some really odd things. So does ours truly, imo. It's business before logic sometimes.
The only reason I use plastic is because people do not trust me or any dealers with coins. I wonder why
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>Here are a few examples of crosses I have had:
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45
1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45
1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53
1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50
Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded. >>
With all due respect, this doesn't mean anything with respect to the ability of either PCGS or NGC to grade. On any or all of the coins, the following could be true:
1- PCGS undergraded them
2- NGC overgraded them
3- PCGS undergraded them and NGC overgraded them
4- PCGS was right
5- NGC was right
An elementary understanding of statistics and the coin market can easily show how anyone can skew these results. If the coins were sold in the NGC holders at the price consistent with the same grade at PCGS, then you overpaid. If they were sold at the same price as the PCGS grade, then you paid the right price. That scale is simply set on who is the baseline. If we call NGC the baseline, then the reverse is true. There are plenty of reasons why you, or anyone else, could end up with numerous coins that would not cross from NGC to PCGS:
1- In this day and age where everyone wants the best score, you paid too much for the coin. You convinced yourself that you were getting a PCGS [grade X] in an NGC [grade X] holder.
2- When an NGC coin is set to PCGS as a crossover, PCGS wants to show that they're stricter, so they grade the coin lower. Human nature dictates the graders do this, even if they try not to. If you want to be better than your competitor, there's no easier way than, when given the opportunity to say flat out, "our competitor has lower standards," you take it.
3- You're unlucky
But I doubt it's just #3. My collection has a large number of NGC coins, because I've found coins I like in NGC holders and saw no reason to cross them. I spent a lot of time looking for very high quality examples, and reject the vast majority of what I see in any holder as not meeting my personal standard. And that's the key. No matter what the holder says, whatever company the holder may be from, I am the final decision maker on all purchases. I don't let a label dictate what I do or don't like. All that matters to me is the coin and the price. If the coin meets my standard and is the right price, then I buy it. That could mean I "overpay" for an NGC coin that is exceptional, but that's fine.
The problem with the Kool Aid in this thread is that the vast majority of responses indicate an issue with NGC coins only with respect to the grades said coins may receive at PCGS. That means people are buying plastic and not coins. For the amount of money people spend on these little metal discs, I continue to be amazed at how much responsibility is placed on the grading company and not the collector. The grading companies most certainly have their place, but if you only know what you want based on how someone else describes it, I dare say perhaps you don't really know. >>
Awesome Jeremy.
Everyone should read, then re-read this reply by Jeremy.
Ankur - Why did you buy a 37 CBH that was labeled AU 55 when it was really a 45? Were you not able to see the coin was not a 55 or is 45 maybe a little off ?
Why in the world did you buy the 57 Flyer labeled AU 58 if it was only a 45? Just that question only?
The 35 and 36 CBH being 5 points off in grade? You should have looked at the coins and known immediately they were overgraded and reduced the price accordingly.
The bust dime. No comment, they are too small to grade accurately.
A 32 CBH from 53 to 45. Again -What were you thinking buying an XF coin mislabeled that much.
Learn how to grade man !
Problem solved.
<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders
for cross-overs and non crossed. These
were absolutely gorgeous. Since then,
I won't even bother with NGC !!! >>
Are you sure there isn't politics involved here? Crack them out and try again. You did say they were Absolutely gorgeous, didn't you?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it.
Or is PCGS wrong?
Has to be one of the above. Which one is it?
<< <i>Wow the kool-aid river is flowing high in here
You ain't kidding!!!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it.
Or is PCGS wrong?
Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
It should have crossed imho. But I don't work in Newport Beach! I'm just posting it FWIW!! Beans on NGC coins means nothing to our host.
The reason for TPGs in the first place was to insure a known quality in coins so that "sight unseen trading" could take place in the coin market, right? I'm not convinced that this objective has ever really been actualized.
I do understand that you do buy the coin and not the holder. Nevertheless, when I buy a TPG graded coin, I expect some semblance of consistancy and quality. In most cases, I've found that my own standards are more exacting than any TPGs standards, when I am considering high-grade Moderns.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it.
Or is PCGS wrong?
Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
It should have crossed imho. But I don't work in Newport Beach! I'm just posting it FWIW!! Beans on NGC coins means nothing to our host. >>
Thanks for the honest reply. I knew you would.
Without talking negatively about our hosts, the OP as well as quite a few of the other Kool Aid drinkers should read and re-read this one also.
And then take it to the next level and consider the possibility of what it might mean.
<< <i>Here are a few examples of crosses I have had:
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45
1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45
1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53
1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50
Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded. >>
Ankur ... seriously, consider a grading class. You are spending a lot of money on labels. As somebody who was trained in critical thinking as part of your professional education, the evidence should be obvious to you. Based on the few examples above, you could have paid for the basic grading course!
Oh, and to comment on your NGC - ANA grading connection ... NGC paid the most for ANA's endorsement (sort of numismatic sluttery on ANA's part). NGC does not follow ANA grading standards, but they use their own standards just as the other major TPGs. What a grading class at the ANA will teach you is how to grade in the reality of TODAY'S market, not the market years ago when the ANA "revised" their grading standards.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>....or maybe the NGC graders couldn't tell strike from wear. >>
Perhaps NGC used market grading and thought such an extremely weak strike with so much missing detail (why doesn't Liberty have a hand?) is only worth AU55 money.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>....or maybe the NGC graders couldn't tell strike from wear. >>
Perhaps NGC used market grading and thought such an extremely weak strike with so much missing detail (why doesn't Liberty have a hand?) is only worth AU55 money. >>
And I was thinking that PCGS thought the coin was a 58, but should be priced at the 62 level. NGC does that a lot with Standing Liberty quarters in my experience.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Same here. I bought a coin in an NGC 63 holder about two years ago. I bought it because the coin was a perfect fit for my collection and I was happy to own it regardless of the holder or the grade, the coin is just beautiful. I thought I would loose a point on the cross but I was wrong, the coin crossed at the same grade.
In response to the FE cent, I bought it as an AU50.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it.
Or is PCGS wrong?
Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
Which is more likely: both NGC and CAC were wrong or PCGS was wrong? What would the result be if this coin were submitted raw?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it.
Or is PCGS wrong?
Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
Which is more likely: both NGC and CAC were wrong or PCGS was wrong? What would the result be if this coin were submitted raw? >>
Can an opinion on a subjective matter be wrong?
<< <i>That "genius" might be someone who didn't want to risk a bodybag for some reason..... >>
If you send any coin for an upgrade in one holder or another, without the stipulation of no grade degradation, then the coin
could possibly "gennie" or BB, right. As I stated, if you are sending the coin in it's NGC holder willing to accept whatever PCGS
grade that it gets, couldn't it possibly get a "gennie" or BB? I really have not heard anyone complaining of getting their NGC coins
BB'd, while I am sure it has happened. I'm just saying that, although now impossible, I wonder what grades would
have been given had the coins in question been sent in cracked out rather than in plastic.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it.
Or is PCGS wrong?
Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
Which is more likely: both NGC and CAC were wrong or PCGS was wrong? What would the result be if this coin were submitted raw? >>
Can an opinion on a subjective matter be wrong? >>
Yes. While grading can be subjective, I've see raw coins that were grossly overgraded by dealers. I saw a commem once at a coin show that was heavily polished and the dealer graded it as a Choice Proof.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it.
Or is PCGS wrong?
Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
Which is more likely: both NGC and CAC were wrong or PCGS was wrong? What would the result be if this coin were submitted raw? >>
Can an opinion on a subjective matter be wrong? >>
Yes. While grading can be subjective, I've see raw coins that were grossly overgraded by dealers. I saw a commem once at a coin show that was heavily polished and the dealer graded it as a Choice Proof. >>
In this context, we are talking about the difference between an XF-45 and an AU-50 or 53. Your anecdote does not belong in this discussion.
<< <i>Your complaint is based on the assumption that both services' grading standards are the same. Do you know for a fact this is true? >>
Why shouldn't they be grading to a common standard? Is there a Sheldon scale for PCGS and a different one for NGC? Does 99.9999% fine mean something different to Englehard than it does to Johnson-Matthey?
<< <i>I will post images of the bust halves in question. Many of them I feel are undergraded by PCGS. >>
And this leads you to the conclusion that you are done with NGC ?
With the amount of information available to todays collectors via many channels (ANA grading classes for one), the playing field is becoming more even everyday. Use the tools available, just as you do in your profession, and you will see your success rate climb. If you don't you will continue to be left behind, in the dark...
Having PCGS, NGC, and independent dealers as instructors gives the students the ability to learn from each of the major grading services what they are looking for in a coin. This, I think, is a good thing.
And for those of you, young numismatist included, who don't think you can afford it, I say you can't afford not to. There are hardship scholarships available to adults through the ANA, virtually all YNs that apply for a scholarship gets one, and several other numismatics associations and coin clubs have scholarships for their members. Heck even the PNG sends collectors to the summer seminar.
I have been told that instructors are told to check their egos at the door. As hard as this might sound to you, sometimes it is even harder for the collector. Without doing this though makes it even more difficult for students and collectors to be open minded enough to learn.
Think about it. What do you have to lose, except maybe a week or so of your life in beautiful Colorado Springs?
NJCC
MS-67, CAC
MS-65
MS-65
VF-35
AU-53
“Optimistic grades” can be found in any TPG holder. The secret is that you have to know how to grade coins. When you do, you will save a lot of money, not just from the mistakes and under grades, but also because of brand loyalty to place premiums on certain kinds of holders. Buy the coin, not the holder.
And PS...I buy from both and see both under and overgraded coins in both type slabs.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just tried to cross a NGC coin with a green bean................DNC. >>
Should it have ?
Or did you buy an overgraded coin and not realize it.
Or is PCGS wrong?
Has to be one of the above. Which one is it? >>
Which is more likely: both NGC and CAC were wrong or PCGS was wrong? What would the result be if this coin were submitted raw? >>
Can an opinion on a subjective matter be wrong? >>
That's utter heresy!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>I have been told that instructors are told to check their egos at the door. As hard as this might sound to you, sometimes it is even harder for the collector. Without doing this though makes it even more difficult for students and collectors to be open minded enough to learn. >>
And those students who do just that, reap the reward of knowledge and confidence.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>For NGC holdered coins that crossed PCGS in the same grade, my hunch is that they would be very strong for the grade....maybe even gold bean strong. >>
There is nothing that I have seen that would lend support to that statement.
<< <i>Just playing devil's advocate here...but maybe NGC is correctly grading while the other major service (who shall remain nameless) is deliberately undergrading crossovers in an attempt to sway market opinion and give NGC a bad rep among dealers and collectors. It wouldn't be the first time that the marketing/finance aspects of a company got to trump business ethics.
And PS...I buy from both and see both under and overgraded coins in both type slabs. >>
My view is that many of the nice NGC coins get crossed, and the "mistakes" stay in NGC holders. I'm not the only one who has noted that. I've heard it from dealers as well.
And yes, I've seen under graded and over graded coins in both brands of slabs.
<< <i>Could it be that NGC isn't overgrading? Maybe they're actually correctly grading, and PCGS undergrades.
Now that's an interesting perspective!
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
<< <i>I will post images of the bust halves in question. Many of them I feel are undergraded by PCGS. >>
You wrote the following in your OP:
"But it seems to me the newer holders contain many coins that are overgraded by more than one grade. I have seen multiple examples of this."
So what are you trying to say? Your whole thread is about NGC overgrading, but here your best example also involves PCGS undergrading. What sense does it make to say NGC is consistently wrong if you're also going to say that your baseline, PCGS, is also consistently wrong but with a different bias?
<< <i>
<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders
for cross-overs and non crossed. These
were absolutely gorgeous. Since then,
I won't even bother with NGC !!! >>
Are you sure there isn't politics involved here? Crack them out and try again. You did say they were Absolutely gorgeous, didn't you? >>
Not necessarily relevant. He said the coins were gorgeous. He didn't say they were gem. Lots of coins are gorgeous for what they are, but that doesn't define their grade. Politics very well may play a role here, but this goes right back to what I said before. Look at the coins, not the plastic. The coins didn't change because the holder changed (or didn't change).
<< <i>So what are you trying to say? Your whole thread is about NGC overgrading, but here your best example also involves PCGS undergrading. What sense does it make to say NGC is consistently wrong if you're also going to say that your baseline, PCGS, is also consistently wrong but with a different bias? >>
Jeremy ... please, please ... PLEASE stop using that big MIT brain of yours! Your logic is overpowering!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Very nice coins can be found in either NGC or PCGS holders.
I agree, but they do not last long in NGC holders in my collection.
1. learn how to grade and don't stop practicing the skill
2. learn how to negotiate purchases and sales
3. buy what pleases you
the rest is all marketing and market perception. the fact that people are saying you have a better chance a nice grade by cracking coins out instead of crossing them makes me think this is especially true.
Until a computer program is developed, and both TPGs decide to use the same program without human intervention, these issues are unavoidable.
sometimes significanlty less money than its counterpart. So one can be very selective in their NGC choices based on many years of grading experience, and still lose out. That's
a personal choice that each one has to make. You can be right, but in the end the market not only fail to reward you for your keen selections, it may punish you. This is the paradox
that I can't quite get over. I don't care how many grading seminars you attend, this issue will still be staring you in the face when you get back. It still tells me to buy nice coins
but ensure that they are in the right holders. PCGS and NGC each know how to grade fairly consistently to their own standards, as does each one of us. The problem remains of
bringing those slight differences to market when it's time to sell. This is where it can all fall apart even if you did everything right up to that point. It seems to me that NGC coins
are already starting out with a 1/3 rd of a point handicap out of the gate, regardless of the coin's quality. Guilt by association. In this case buyers are ignoring the assigned grade,
ignoring the coin, and starting from somewhere else totally unknown to me. This wasn't in the charter back in 1986-1987. I was always happy with my NGC purchases, esp. those
that stickered. What I wasn't so happy with was how the market treated them pricewise. It's also been instructive to see some of them start to appear in higher holders, not that it
surprises me any.
How many all NGC registry sets have we seen come to the national auctions each year? None that I can think of. I think back to Dick Osburn's seated half set at last summer's ANA.
Only 3% of the NGC coins stickered while 38% of the PCGS ones did. Those numbers fall far outside any bell curve and outside anyone picking purely at random. 55% of the 150 coins
in that set were NGC.
1 pt gradations in MS63-68 18th to early 20th century type coins has basically been a doubling in price since 1986. And I would contend that it probably goes all the
way back to 1980 or the late 1970's. 1 pt in grade makes a huge difference. It meant more in the 1988-1990 era when the supergrades of 66-68 were rarely assigned as they are today.
A doubling in price is serious money. That's why 2 tenths of a point can easily mean 20% in value.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
Then make your offer and move along. All you are paying for is their opinion. iIf you don't like their opinion, either make your own, or drink kool-aid exclusively.
-Paul
<< <i>If you send any coin for an upgrade in one holder or another, without the stipulation of no grade degradation, then the coin
could possibly "gennie" or BB, right. As I stated, if you are sending the coin in it's NGC holder willing to accept whatever PCGS
grade that it gets, couldn't it possibly get a "gennie" or BB? I really have not heard anyone complaining of getting their NGC coins
BB'd, while I am sure it has happened. >>
I do not believe this is correct.
If you try a cross at any grade and PCGS feels it should BB it will be returned in the original holder.
Lance.
- beautiful coins
- ugly coins
- overgraded coins
- undergraded coins
- problem coins in normal holders
- problem-free coins in problem holders
As one forum member recently said, "Cool coins are cool coins regardless of grade and designations."
People get so caught up in whether a coin is the "correct" slab or not.
How many times have we heard it: "Buy the coin, not the holder."
You know what I do when I'm looking for coins to buy?
I completely ignore the slab and I make my decision solely based on if I like the coin's merits compared to its price.
I couldn't care less what some anonymous-to-me group of coin graders thinks; it's about what *I* think.
As long as I purchase according to this standard, I'll be happy with my coins and I should be fine when it comes time to sell.
By playing the crossover game, one has to know that they take a risk: you may come out ahead, but you may also come out behind.
If you take the risk and then complain about the results, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
If some people refuse to buy coins in other TPG slabs, that's all the better for me because it means less competition for some coins.
JJ
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
"Then make your offer and move along. All you are paying for is their opinion. iIf you don't like their opinion, either make your own, or drink kool-aid exclusively."
Exactly. Most coins that collectors are chasing after aren't rare, so if a dealer refuses your offer, move on. OTOH, you will likely have to pay an 'opportunity cost' when you run across an item that you realize is infrequently traded---this is one reason why spending time studying specialized aspects of numismatics is important.
There are dealers who actually arrive at a grade opinion independent of what the slab insert states, sometimes acknowledging that the coin is overgraded. This is a key reason why figuring out who the good dealers are is a priority. Stay away from dealers who merely push slabs across counters (QDB terms these dealers 'monkeys').
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>If you send any coin for an upgrade in one holder or another, without the stipulation of no grade degradation, then the coin
could possibly "gennie" or BB, right. As I stated, if you are sending the coin in it's NGC holder willing to accept whatever PCGS
grade that it gets, couldn't it possibly get a "gennie" or BB? I really have not heard anyone complaining of getting their NGC coins
BB'd, while I am sure it has happened. >>
I do not believe this is correct.
If you try a cross at any grade and PCGS feels it should BB it will be returned in the original holder.
Lance. >>
Thats only if you select "do not holder genuine".
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
When I was dealer, I freely admitted it when a coin was over graded IMO. The price started with the market price for the actual coin grade, and we worked from there. Sometimes I got coins raw, had them graded and they came back over graded. Sometimes I had to take something in trade from a collector - customer.
Here's an example. The 1829 to 1834 Reduced Diameter Capped Bust half eagle is one of the toughest type coins in the whole U.S. series. It is the toughest half eagle type coin by far. This 1834 piece is the "common" date and variety with an estimated 40 or so pieces known in all grades. NGC called this an MS-61, which it is not. But it is worth AU money. I paid less than AU money for this piece and was very happy. This is a type that can cost a six figure number to fill the slot.
in that set were NGC.
Those are two excellent, excellent points.