I may get flamed for saying this, but I am done with NGC

AnkurJ

There have been so many coins I have purchased in NGC holders over the years, and 90% of them have come back significantly lower when crossed or cracked out and submitted to PCGS. Now many of these coins were purchased years ago when I started collecting and did not know how to grade as well as I do now. But it seems to me the newer holders contain many coins that are overgraded by more than one grade. I have seen multiple examples of this.

I know many here say buy the coin not the holder, but after being burned so many times, I am hesitant buying a coin in an NGC holder unless it is CAC'd. If the grade is on the borderline when you look at it, it most likely will be one grade less when you send it to PCGS. With this overgrading, it is no surprise that many major dealers send their coins to NGC in order to max out the coin.

Fire away.
AJ

Twobitcollector

its happen to me too

DNADave

For tokens, world, or other exo. they're pretty much large and in charge.

commoncents05

I think you should spend more times honing in your own grading abilities rather than having to depend on the right mix of plastic and stickers.

-Paul

MidLifeCrisis

I think PCGS is generally more accurate, more consistent, and more widely accepted in the market, so I prefer all my coins to be in PCGS plastic. Plus I'm severely OCD.

But nice coins can be found in NGC holders. I wouldn't make such a blanket rule if I were you.

mrpotatoheadd

Your complaint is based on the assumption that both services' grading standards are the same. Do you know for a fact this is true?

Justacommeman

Ankur, I've seen it cut both ways.

<But nice coins can be found in NGC holders. I wouldn't make such a blanket rule if I were you>

Yep.

MJ

JRocco

They grade to a different standard.
You didn't pay the same nor do they grade the same.
An NGC 53 CBH might cross to PCGS as a 50, but you only paid PCGS 50 money for that NCG 53

Problem is many try to save money on an NGC coin that is cheaper than the same graded PCGS coin...but they are not the same, and when they try to cross the less expensive coin they expect the same grade as the more expensive coin.

They grade to a different standard. It's easy once that is understood.

braddick

This is a freakin coincidence!
Just over on the Apple iPhone forum there is a poster complaining he's done with Android phones...

DIMEMAN

I completely agree with you on NGC and PCGS. NGC will hardly ever cross at grade. I do not pass on any dimes I need for my sets so I do buy ngc coins at times and cross them.

My rule is to buy at the grade I think it is rather than what ngc called it. That works for me.

Sometimes a coin in the ngc holder is what the label says, but most of the time ngc coins go for 1 grade lower in price.

deltadimeman

yes , the great upgrade rush is on at ngc. they do have very nice coins in ngc holders but i think the grading standards at pcgs are a little bit different and right now it is very easy to get a one or two point upgrade just by cracking pcgs coins and submitting to ngc. one example is bust halves, look at the difference in grading , before we know it all nice bust halves will be locked up in ngc holders for years !

not trying to slam ngc , but pcgs coins , too me , just look so much better for the assigned grade .

Sonorandesertrat

<< <i>They grade to a different standard.
You didn't pay the same nor do they grade the same.
An NGC 53 CBH might cross to PCGS as a 50, but you only paid PCGS 50 money for that NCG 53

Problem is many try to save money on an NGC coin that is cheaper than the same graded PCGS coin...but they are not the same, and when they try to cross the less expensive coin they expect the same grade as the more expensive coin.

They grade to a different standard. It's easy once that is understood. >>



I agree. This also makes it easy to understand why certain dealers strive to get their stock into NGC plastic---they count on many customers not understanding the differences in grading standards.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>not trying to slam ngc , but pcgs coins , too me , just look so much better for the assigned grade . >>

If your grading system requires a better condition coin than your competitor to get the same number on the holder, that's not a real surprise, is it?

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>This is a freakin coincidence!
Just over on the Apple iPhone forum there is a poster complaining he's done with Android phones... >>



I know what you mean. I just hate it when I don't forward those chain emails and I die the next day.

astrorat

For less than the price of a mistake, you can take a grading class with the ANA. In two weeks at their Summer Seminar, you can take an intro grading class and, if proficient, take an advanced grading class. It will be the best money you can spend to ensure you don't buy improperly graded coins. Education trumps labels and stickers.

Timbuk3

I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders
for cross-overs and non crossed. These
were absolutely gorgeous. Since then,
I won't even bother with NGC !!!

JRocco

<< <i>For less than the price of a mistake, you can take a grading class with the ANA. In two weeks at their Summer Seminar, you can take an intro grading class and, if proficient, take an advanced grading class. It will be the best money you can spend to ensure you don't buy improperly graded coins. Education trumps labels and stickers. >>

jayPem

It is possible to move past the OCD !
I'm no longer feeling the pressure to have all my coins in the same holders...and while I'd say my collection is over 90% pcgs at the moment, I will always look at any coin in any holder.

AnkurJ

Last I checked, NGC is the grading company of choice of the ANA. So if I take an ANA grading course, that will show me how to grade the NGC way? No thanks.

mrpotatoheadd

The fact you appear to not like NGC's grading system is not evidence that there is anything wrong with it.

AnkurJ

<< <i>The fact you appear to not like NGC's grading system is not evidence that there is anything wrong with it. >>



You are absolutely correct. These are my thoughts and my opinion. You are entitled to your own. Heck, you can feel that SEGS grades accurately, and that is your perogative.

Justacommeman

<sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders
for cross-overs and non crossed. These
were absolutely gorgeous. Since then,
I won't even bother with NGC !!!>

Are these coins no less gorgeous or did NGC, you or PCGS miss something? I'm pretty sure that if you asked your coins they won't know what clothes they were wearing. Naked and out of the holder these are still the same three gorgeous Saints you bought. Also, did you pay NGC or PCGS 65 money for them? There is a often a difference.

As TDN has often said, if you want a coin in a PCGS holder buy it in a PCGS holder. Those that pay NGC prices with the intent of getting it into a PCGS holder are often trying for coin arbitrage. Sometimes you reap what you sow.

Lane- fine response sir. MJ

chipper10

<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders
for cross-overs and non crossed. These
were absolutely gorgeous. Since then,
I won't even bother with NGC !!! >>



So let's dissect this. You send coins from one service to the "high and mighty" service that considers themselves superior (and in some ways are) and are surprised when "gorgeous" coins don't cross? Ever think that some of this might be due to the "high and mighty" service wanting to stamp into your mind they are better. If you want a true evaulation of how they compare then crack them out and send them in.

jdimmick

I had two coins which were purchased in NGC CAC holders. I knew if submitted to PCGS they would come in a graded lower, regardless of being CAC, but I liked these particular coins so I bought them anyway. Well guess what both coins went down a grade at PCGS as expected. FIO : Both were older gold .

deltadimeman

yes, you can learn ana grading standards but if a bust half is locked in a ngc holder as a ms62 and you really like the coin but, your collection is in pcgs holders what do you do ? if you submitt to pcgs for grading most likely you will receive an au58 grade and no amount of grading skills will help you ? i guess what i am trying to say is , the coin in a ngc ms62 holder will always be overpriced by pcgs grading standards ?

kimber45ACP

I got burned on a Peace dollar in 67 that would not cross at PCGS.
Took me awhile to sell it and did not break even.
PCGS only for me.

oakcoin

I always send in to or buy Pcgs becaus their market value is higher for the most part. Plus the new prong holders look really cool.

JRocco

<< <i>yes, you can learn ana grading standards but if a bust half is locked in a ngc holder as a ms62 and you really like the coin but, your collection is in pcgs holders what do you do ? if you submitt to pcgs for grading most likely you will receive an au58 grade and no amount of grading skills will help you ? i guess what i am trying to say is , the coin in a ngc ms62 holder will always be overpriced by pcgs grading standards ? >>

+

If you look at a coin, say a CBH in a 62 holder the first thing that should be done is to grade the coin.
Is it a 58 or a 62?
If it is a 58 then offer the dealer what you are willing to pay for a 58. He can either say yes or no.

If you want a 62 then look for a coin that is a 62...NO MATTER WHAT THE LABEL SAYS.
And when you see that 62 still try offering 58 money for it but now you can wiggle.

Hey Ankur,
If you saw a nice CBH that you wanted for your set in a 2X2 flip with a grade of AU55 handwritten on it, would you buy it ?

Bochiman

A wise forumite once gave this advice....

Learn to grade for yourself and pay based on the real grade.
If you buy in NGC, learn to grade as they do and pay based on that.
If you buy in PCGS, learn to grade as they do and pay based on that.

It's really pretty simple and it really boils down to you, the person.

We have seen people post on the forums that they attempted a crossover and:
* It didn't cross
* It crossed, but at a grade, or more, lower
* It crossed, at the same grade
* It crossed and went up a grade or more

Personally, I have had:
* Didn't cross for some reason (and I didn't feel like playing the crackout, or resubmit, games.
* Crossed at same grade (multiples of these, including my prize 55DDO Lincoln)

Do you think you have ONLY been "burned" buying NGC holdered coins? Have all your PCGS holdered sold for what you paid, or more?
What do you consider "burned"? Value received after selling them? Or is this a cross to PCGS type of complaint pure and simple?

I buy mainly PCGS but I don't mind paying for a nice NGC coin, and they are out there.....sometimes because of location for the submitter, sometimes for speed/specials, sometimes because the submitter isn't a member other than being ANA member and having the ability to submit to NGC that way, etc.

Sorry, but I think blanket statements are silly and that in something like generically attacking a well-respected grading company because of a relatively small pool of items, is even sillier.

mrpotatoheadd

Could it be that NGC isn't overgrading? Maybe they're actually correctly grading, and PCGS undergrades.

TheBigB

<< <i>There have been so many coins I have purchased in NGC holders over the years, and 90% of them have come back significantly lower when crossed or cracked out and submitted to PCGS.
AJ >>



If these are your results, you need to recalibrate your eyeballs. What was your opinion on these coins before sending them to PCGS for crossover?

EagleEye

Fly-In club members don't use NGC. They don't properly label their varieties.

WoodenJefferson

No bashing from me, but the host just might. It's all subjective anyway....man I hate that word.

robec

You are more likely than not getting what you pay for. Generic NGC MS65's sell for approximately what PCGS MS64's sell for. This has pretty much been talked about over and over again for years. If you do get one to cross at grade, you've hit a home run.

BG

I used to play the crossover game. I don't anymore.

This was my last one though:

Broadstruck

<< <i>I think you should spend more times honing in your own grading abilities rather than having to depend on the right mix of plastic and stickers. >>

coinbuf

Wow the kool-aid river is flowing high in here

JCMhouston

<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders >>



Try sending them in raw, I think there is a much better chance they would come back with the appropriate grade. I think NGC does the same, I know several people who have tried to cross PCGS coins to NGC and a very poor pass rate, basically the coin has to be the next grade up before they will cross it in the holder.

Pistareen

<< <i>Last I checked, NGC is the grading company of choice of the ANA. So if I take an ANA grading course, that will show me how to grade the NGC way? No thanks. >>



Not accurate in the least. Some instructors are PCGS graders, some are NGC graders, most are independent dealers who make their living grading and submit to both.

I would make a gentleman's wager that the first thing the OP would do after taking an ANA grading course is to sign up for another one.

coinkid855

<< <i>Last I checked, NGC is the grading company of choice of the ANA. So if I take an ANA grading course, that will show me how to grade the NGC way? No thanks. >>



I took Intermediate and Advanced last year. The teachers were made up of both NGC AND PCGS graders, as well as seasoned numismatists. They were all awesome graders and I gained a TON of knowledge there, as well as made some great contacts that I will hopefully be putting to use when I graduate in May.




-Paul

roadrunner

Yes, the standards are different, but in the pre-2008 era that difference was only worth about a 5-15% diff. in price. Today it's more like 25-50%. You lost on that
gamble even if the coin is nice. The only way out is to crack them and hope for the same grade. One cannot determine anything by crossing tough a small % of
coins do make it through those hoops. Even NGC crosses less than 50% of the coins it receives. How can both services cross < 50%? Think about it.

Yes, there are nice coins in NGC holders, they just always bring less money than similar or even lesser PCGS coins. Been there, done that, tired of doing that.

Buy the coin that pleases you. But don't be miffed when that equivalent NGC coin doesn't fetch near as much as its counterpart on the same % basis as when purchased.
I liked all the NGC coins I ever bought to keep longer term. But when it's time to sell it matters little what I or any other coin owner thinks. You may think a coin is a 65.5
while the sticker-house sees it as a 65.3. Anyone grading within .2 of the pros is doing a great job. But in this case that .2 will probably cost you 20% or more. And don't
think that buying +, star, or green/gold stickered coins will necessarily be your salvation. The rules as well as market conditions can change at any time.

You can take all the grading seminars you want and become quie an accomplished grader, but your carefully selected NGC coins still won't perform like they "should" or could
in the post 2008 era. As an example look at MS65 bust halves. Last I checked NGC had graded 4X as many as PCGS. That suggests that 75% of those coins could be of lesser
quality. How should the market rank those coins? We can't go back and give those 75% a diff grade...though that's essentially what a sticker does. Out of
the top 25%, only the truly superior ones will compete with the PCGS specimens. The other good ones that you carefully selected based on your well-honed grading skills will
underperform, even if stickered. Down the road, a stickered NGC65 bust half might be a rarity as there are so few of them around. I've always felt that the diff between
PCGS and NGC grading on MS 63-67 seated coins was probably 0.2-0.3 pts. It looks small but that's enough to get you into hot water at resale time. On generic coins like
MS61-66 common Morgans or Saints, the holder makes almost no difference as there are buyers for both product at equivalent market prices. Once you move away from
anything fully generic, spreads widen quickly.

I do think that NGC probably grades as consistently as PCGS, but again, on different standards. The issues above essentially negate any such consistency. The world changed
post-2008 and we knew it was coming. But I didn't forsee CAC coming about that would essentially put a dagger through good NGC coins as well. 5-15% has become 25-50%.
The rules all are all different now in the post-2008 world. And they have changed dramatically. We all knew 5-6 yrs ago that the dogs in holders were going to get plastered
down the road when the market cooled. It's too bad that many acceptable and nice coins in holders joined in the party. A seasoned dealer pro can navigate this market and
be successful. But I'd venture that 99% of collectors could not do that, including those with considerable grading skills. Having market outlets and sources for all types of coins
is a big help. Collectors as a rule have limited dealers they show coins to, or they can go the auction route. It's funny that when I'm on other PM websites there are a lot of
newbies that think PCGS = NGC = ANACS and even = ICG. As long as they are around, there are retail outlets for those coins at full PCGS market prices.

All of the above only applies to US coins. I have no clue as to how the standards for NGC foreign coinage has progressed.

mkman123

What if you take PCGS coins and try to cross it to NGC? Will they all cross or ? Probably not. I like both companies

secondrepublic

If you're talking world coins (non-US), this doesn't ring true at all.

mkman123

I agree with secondrepublic on world coins, NGC is the leader there.

Spooly

NGC grades to ANA grading standards. PCGS has it's own standard.

I really though after Rick left PCGS to go to NGC things would change for the better. Didn't happen

golfer72

There are just as many misgraded coins in PCGS holders as NGC. The reason people dont realize thius is peoeple seldom cross from PCGS to NGC. Baecuase of all the Koolaid drinkers coins in PCGS holders bring more money. people cant look at the coins with their own two eyes.

golfer72

<< <i>NGC grades to ANA grading standards. PCGS has it's own standard.

I really though after Rick left PCGS to go to NGC things would change for the better. Didn't happen >>

What standards? If you can send in a coin 7 times and get at least 5 different grades there are no standards.

ModernEagles

It's seems like for Modern Coins PCGS demands more of a premium. I also learned this the hard way when upgrading some of my NGC 70's to other coins. The funny part is there are some coins that almost the same as PCGS. I would say one example could be the 2009 UHR relief in 70. Most times the they are very close in price. Sometimes there seems to be a significant spread.

AnkurJ

<< <i>

<< <i>Last I checked, NGC is the grading company of choice of the ANA. So if I take an ANA grading course, that will show me how to grade the NGC way? No thanks. >>



Not accurate in the least. Some instructors are PCGS graders, some are NGC graders, most are independent dealers who make their living grading and submit to both.

I would make a gentleman's wager that the first thing the OP would do after taking an ANA grading course is to sign up for another one. >>



I was unaware of this. Thank you for clarifying.

Again people, these are MY OPINIONS. You are entitled to your own. I dont have a problem with NGC coins, but it seems they are off a higher percentage of the time compared to PCGS.

drddm

I happen to agree, to some extent, that NGC tends to overgrade, and that is why I search for PCGS graded coins whenever possible, however if I like the NGC coin (bust half in my case), then I will try to cross it, and will usually accept the point downgrade.

However, NGC does tend to get it right sometimes, albeit not that often I must admit.

Here are the results of my last 3 NGC bust half purchases.........


1808/7 crossed from NGC 58 (New Prong Holder) to PCGS 58



1810 crossed from NGC 58 (Old Fatty Holder) to PCGS 62



1814 E/A crossed from NGC 61 (New Prong Holder) to PCGS 61

AnkurJ

<< <i>

Hey Ankur,
If you saw a nice CBH that you wanted for your set in a 2X2 flip with a grade of AU55 handwritten on it, would you buy it ? >>



If it was an expensive coin, I would be hesitant. I was told when I first started collecting, that if a really nice coin is raw, there is a reason for that. The only exception I can think of are early american coppers.

Roadrunner: Excellent post!