<< <i>There have been so many coins I have purchased in NGC holders over the years, and 90% of them have come back significantly lower when crossed or cracked out and submitted to PCGS. >>
You should learn to grade to PCGS standard and not rely on another grading company if you want your coins to end-up in PCGS holders.
Summary: One coin upgraded up by three grades, 6 coins upgraded by two grades, 28 coins upgraded by one grade, 23 coins crossed at same grade, and one coin downgraded by one grade.
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
All the time dealers overprice coins, whether they are dogs, glorious, correctly graded, damaged, etc. You are going to pay what you are going to pay, and the dealer is going to accept what he is going to accept. If the numbers line up, you can buy the coin. Everything else is irrelevant.
Look at it another (extreme) way. Suppose a coin is graded MS67 by NGC and then graded MS64 by PCGS.
A- If the coin is really a 67, then asking 67 money is right, regardless of the holder. If the dealer can only get MS64 money for the coin in the PCGS holder, then PCGS has done him a disservice. But anyone buying the coin should know it is beyond amazing for the grade, and the cost should change with that knowledge. This coin would sell in seconds at the 64 level.
B- If the coin really is a 64, then anyone who buys it as a 67 has no idea what to look for when grading. NGC has done a disservice to the buyer, but the buyer has done a disservice to himself. This is going to be a very hard coin to move at the 67 price level.
C- If the coin is really a 65 or 66, there's a combination of the two scenarios above.
What do we learn from this? The coin itself is important. The number may help an unskilled (or unscrupulous) dealer determine a price, but however they arrive at a price, and however the buyer arrives at a price, the coin only sells if an agreement is made.
Besides, how often do we hear stories where a dealer will say any coin they have for sale is undergraded, and any coin they are buying is overgraded? If you're not dealing with someone who is going to be honest with the coins he is handling, what difference does the slab make?
Summary: One coin upgraded up by three grades, 6 coins upgraded by two grades, 28 coins upgraded by one grade, 23 coins crossed at same grade, and one coin downgraded by one grade. >>
<< <i>How many all NGC registry sets have we seen come to the national auctions each year? None that I can think of. I think back to Dick Osburn's seated half set at last summer's ANA. Only 3% of the NGC coins stickered while 38% of the PCGS ones did. Those numbers fall far outside any bell curve and outside anyone picking purely at random. 55% of the 150 coins in that set were NGC.
>>
Say I open my own TPG and call it JRCGS I am a tough grader and regularly grade on a strict curve. What you call a 50 I label a 45, what you call a 58 I label a 53, you 65 me 63 and so on. Chances are a large percentage of my slabs will sticker, bean, star, plus whatever your flavor of the year is. Does that mean all the other TPG's should start grading to my standard to please those that like stickers and put the actual coin second?
Grade the darn coin like a coin collector should and price/value it based on the coin. If you buy an XF45 coin that is in an AU 55 holder than you need to look in the mirror not at the label.
<< <i> You should learn to grade to PCGS standard and not rely on another grading company if you want your coins to end-up in PCGS holders. Just a thought. >>
All very true. But don't we all preach to buy the coin first, holder second?
What the real answer is as many have already stated, is to buy them in PCGS holders to begin with. Then no fuss, no muss later on.
Ironically, for a brief shining moment back in late 1987 and early 1988, NGC coins were actually preferred to PCGS, and bringing premiums. Their grading standards were a bit tight out of the gate. I recall getting a PF65 on my toner 1904 barber half that came from a gem superb orig proof set 5 yrs earlier in 1983. I paid 67 money back then. I nearly died when I first saw it in a 65 holder and now "worth 40% less" on paper. I had the coin regraded months later and it went NGC PF66. Today it resides in a 67 holder though I'm not sure which one. It would be anyone's 67 today.
JRocco's idea of grading tougher than anyone works well in a down market. But don't try that in a bull market where higher grades are desired by everyone as the grading envelope gets pushed out. Grading tough in 2005-2008 would have just lead to your business failing. No one wanted tight grades then.
I decided to limit my slab purchases to PCGS about 15 years ago, due to what I perceived to be tighter standards (closer to how I graded in the pre-slab era). Granted, there are many nice coins in NGC slabs, but I would only consider buying them if I was reasonably confident that they would cross.
<< <i>If you send any coin for an upgrade in one holder or another, without the stipulation of no grade degradation, then the coin could possibly "gennie" or BB, right. As I stated, if you are sending the coin in it's NGC holder willing to accept whatever PCGS grade that it gets, couldn't it possibly get a "gennie" or BB? I really have not heard anyone complaining of getting their NGC coins BB'd, while I am sure it has happened. >>
I do not believe this is correct.
If you try a cross at any grade and PCGS feels it should BB it will be returned in the original holder. Lance. >>
Thats only if you select "do not holder genuine". >>
No. "Do not holder genuine" is for use with raw coins you want returned raw if they have problems.
PCGS will not break out a coin from a problem-free holder to place it in a BB or "genuine" holder.
I suppose you could ask to have this done but why would you? Lance.
<< <i> You should learn to grade to PCGS standard and not rely on another grading company if you want your coins to end-up in PCGS holders. Just a thought. >>
All very true. But don't we all preach to buy the coin first, holder second?
What the real answer is as many have already stated, is to buy them in PCGS holders to begin with. Then no fuss, no muss later on. >>
This would work for US coins, for sure.
Majority of graded world coins are unfortunately in NGC holders. That's one of the reasons I prefer to buy world coins raw based on the merits of the coin itself and have it slabbed. At this point, looking at a raw 8 Reales in-hand, I can pretty accurately tell you what grade it would receive if i was to send it to NGC or PCGS. Quite often there's at least a 1-2 point difference between the two, as was discussed already. The problem with PCGS when it comes to World coins is the lack of expertise in more specialized areas of world coin collecting (like, for example, my area of collecting - Mexico War of Independence 1811-1821).
I might use NGC more if I they offered a wider choice of inserts. IMO a black surround shows off silver coins better than a clear or white one - especially if the coin is toned or colorized. Sadly neither PCGS nor NGC has yet to offer this service.
As for the grading: it cuts both ways. I have had NGC-slabbed silver coins bumped up a notch by PCGS.
Salute the automobile: The greatest anti-pollution device in human history! (Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
I will confess to not having read all of these posts, but I will add my own perspective anyway. A number of years ago I had a fairly decent no bands Mercury collection. At that time there were a group of folks here we called the Mercateers and while the registry was in its infancy, we had a great set of folks sharing information, trading between ourselves...etc.
At this point, in that one series, I felt I could grade reasonably well. It is my opinion that for high grade Mercs NGC was typically one point higher on quite a consistent basis. This opinion was typical of the group and expressed often. It was not a bash at NGC, but rather a view of how they grade and their standards up to that time. I do not believe things have changed much over the years and to get "all the money" a coin will typically reside in a PCGS holder, often with a CAC bean.
You really have to know the grading standards for the series you are interested in to buy or sell at the proper price point and apply that to both the grade on the holder and the holder it is in. That is why in many series NGC trades for less than PCGS. These are generalities, but they hold over the long run and over a a large group of coins. Does that mean NGC will never cross, NO. It does mean you have to have a good eye for what is in the holder and how PCGS will view that coin. The true test is cracking the coin out when you submit it as then it becomes a blind test for PCGS.
So my final comments are, good coins are good coins, but you have to know the standard of the grading service and price them accordingly. No one is shocked when a coin does not cross from NGC, although MANY do. It is also why I only keep PCGS slabs in my collection long term, but that is my preference and not necessarily a recommendation for all.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
Summary: One coin upgraded up by three grades, 6 coins upgraded by two grades, 28 coins upgraded by one grade, 23 coins crossed at same grade, and one coin downgraded by one grade. >>
Wow.... I know it doesn't matter to some here, but I can bet most of the upgrades wouldn't CAC. Talk about maxing out. Probably why some big coin brokerage carry mostly NGC coins even though they're located in California.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Ah...but just wait until the coin market weakens in the future and both of these companies decide/need to merge to survive (or grow revenue)...then suddenly all their slabs will instantly become valid at any and all grades!
<< <i>Wow.... I know it doesn't matter to some here, but I can bet most of the upgrades wouldn't CAC. Talk about maxing out. Probably why some big coin brokerage carry mostly NGC coins even though they're located in California. >>
You're right, it doesn't matter. With or without a sticker, a coin is either low, normal, or great for the grade. Numerous people have already written here that their NGC + CAC coins didn't cross to PCGS, so maybe you should consider that a reason to no longer trust CAC, either. And besides, a coin not stickering doesn't mean it doesn't merit the grade it received. You do understand CAC's scale, right?
And yes, do talk about maxing out. Someone made the decision that this move was in their financial interest. The coins haven't changed, and if you're a buyer at $3MM, then I sure as anything hope you know what you're doing, plastic notwithstanding.
And finally, as far as a CA company sending coins all the way to FL, let me just say that aviation really made the world a smaller place...
<< <i>Ah...but just wait until the coin market weakens in the future and both of these companies decide/need to merge to survive (or grow revenue)...then suddenly all their slabs will instantly become valid at any and all grades!
I'm sure employees at Northrop/Grumman, United/Continental Airlines and Macy's/Bambergers/Filenes/May/Jordan Marsh/Marshall Field (and countless others) might have said the same thing too...!
<< <i>I'm sure employees at Northrop/Grumman, United/Continental Airlines and Macy's/Bambergers/Filenes/May/Jordan Marsh/Marshall Field (and countless others) might have said the same thing too...!
$ makes for strange bedfellows! >>
Apples and oranges. You can't compare an industry with two major players (and that has stayed steady basically for the entire duration those companies have existed) whose business relies in large part to their competition to much broader industries where mergers are required to stay competitive in an ever-changing market with new needs and players emerging often.
<< <i>Ah...but just wait until the coin market weakens in the future and both of these companies decide/need to merge to survive (or grow revenue)...then suddenly all their slabs will instantly become valid at any and all grades!
And don't tell me that will never happen. >>
It will never happen. >>
At least in our lifetime.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>In slabs of BOTH top tier grading companies you can find:
- beautiful coins - ugly coins - overgraded coins - undergraded coins - problem coins in normal holders - problem-free coins in problem holders
As one forum member recently said, "Cool coins are cool coins regardless of grade and designations." People get so caught up in whether a coin is the "correct" slab or not. How many times have we heard it: "Buy the coin, not the holder."
You know what I do when I'm looking for coins to buy? I completely ignore the slab and I make my decision solely based on if I like the coin's merits compared to its price. I couldn't care less what some anonymous-to-me group of coin graders thinks; it's about what *I* think. As long as I purchase according to this standard, I'll be happy with my coins and I should be fine when it comes time to sell. By playing the crossover game, one has to know that they take a risk: you may come out ahead, but you may also come out behind. If you take the risk and then complain about the results, you have nobody to blame but yourself. If some people refuse to buy coins in other TPG slabs, that's all the better for me because it means less competition for some coins. >>
".....I should be fine when it comes time to sell."While I agree with the oft cited 'buy the coin not the holder' , I am not sure I agree with this comment
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The thread makes it painfully obvious who some of the real collectors of coins are....and who some of the plastic slaves are. I don't profess to be close to professional in my grading abilities, but I have no problems in buying what I like raw/ngc/pcgs or whatnot, as long as I understand the risks and am comfortable with the coin myself.
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to be truly saddened by the folks who NEED a certain plastic or sticker in order to feel like they are ok with their purchase, but I am shocked and a bit saddened. Kind of like asking a kid to use a rotary style phone now...they are so used to cellphone and wireless that they may not know how to do it. Stuck on plastic and live/die by that label.
<< <i>I think you should spend more times honing in your own grading abilities rather than having to depend on the right mix of plastic and stickers.
-Paul >>
This.
In the late 90s, I decided to buy some Unc. Large and Half Cents. Braided Hair and Coronet Type Unc Large Cents were readily available. Half-Cents, not so much so, but you could find them. So I went to Long Beach Shows, and looked at as many of these coins as I could find in grades of MS 64 and MS 65.
After looking at between 60 and 100 of these coins, I noticed some trends. Mainly, the PCGS coins in these grades usually -- but not always -- had a contact mark or two less which one could spot with the naked eye than their NGC counterparts. They often had one less speck of carbon as well. I said 'usually,' because this was not always the case.
What you probably did was buy some low end for the grade NGC coins and when you tried to sell them, you got screwed.
There are plenty of nice for the grade NGC coins out there that people didn't want to be bothered with spending money getting them stickered, or trying to upgrade or cross these coins. People making comments like the OP have made such coins attractive to individuals who can distinguish what is a nice for the grade coin.
A nice coin will bring a price to match. The rest of it is marketing.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>The thread makes it painfully obvious who some of the real collectors of coins are....and who some of the plastic slaves are. I don't profess to be close to professional in my grading abilities, but I have no problems in buying what I like raw/ngc/pcgs or whatnot, as long as I understand the risks and am comfortable with the coin myself.
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to be truly saddened by the folks who NEED a certain plastic or sticker in order to feel like they are ok with their purchase, but I am shocked and a bit saddened. Kind of like asking a kid to use a rotary style phone now...they are so used to cellphone and wireless that they may not know how to do it. Stuck on plastic and live/die by that label. >>
Bochiman, to each their own. You can buy your way, and I will buy my way. For investment liquidity, I will stick to the plastic and sticker. No need for you to be shocked or saddend. When down the line my collection is sold, you will see the difference what the right plastic and sticker can do. Then, you will be shocked as to how right I was.
The series I collect I know how to grade for the most part. But with coin doctors becoming so good at what they do, I am hesitant buying higher priced raw coins.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Ankur, in all candor, I don't think one should confuse the purchase of coins with investments. Unless you are a dealer, coins should be a discretionary purchase with money that in the worst case scenario, you can afford to lose.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Call is whatever you want. I know I love my coins and have no plans to sell them in the near future. However if something were to happen to me, the liquidity of my investments will mean a great deal to my wife and kids. I would hate for them to be left with utter crap which is worthless. If you are spending money on anything other than food and clothing, you are investing your time and money. At the end of the day, we are all investors and collectors.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
As a collector there are benefits in ownership such as personal enjoyement during the stewardship. How much is that worth?
As an investor I suppose it's much different.
As a collector/investor I bet it can get confusing. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I would hate for them to be left with utter crap which is worthless. >>
So now coins that aren't PCGS & CAC are utter crap and worthless? >>
No, I never said that. I am talking about the overgraded maxed out and problem coins in problem free holders as discussed earlier. Maybe worthless is a harsh word to use. So let me rephrase that. I wouldnt want them to be left with overgraded or problem coins where the initial investment cant be recovered, even after a number of years.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these."
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these." >>
He also says in the first paragraph on his website the following:
Additionally, it may serve one well to remember the phrase "buy what you like with money you can afford to lose."
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these." >>
He also says in the first paragraph on his website the following:
Additionally, it may serve one well to remember the phrase "buy what you like with money you can afford to lose."
MJ >>
Leave it to TomB to talk out of both sides of his mouth.
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these." >>
He also says in the first paragraph on his website the following:
Additionally, it may serve one well to remember the phrase "buy what you like with money you can afford to lose."
MJ >>
Leave it to TomB to talk out of both sides of his mouth. >>
He is usually the smartest guy in the room and for good reason
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Let's assume that we all accept the fact that there are two top-tier grading services.
Here's an interesting thought experiment. Suppose one of them suddenly went out of business. With only one top service, would their standards stand up over years and decades or would they start to drift? Without another standard to "calibrate" from, I'd guess the remaining service would become less consistent over time. Competition drives quality and consistency.
Any way I look at this thread there really isn't any way to get around the fact that an average collector is not guaranteed success when buying coins based purely on a TPG's assesment. It's enormously better than the world that used to exist when everything was raw, but there is still room enough to get into trouble. This is true for the average collector who is only looking to get their money back when it's time to cash in and even more true for someone who is deluded enough to think they're actually making money while playing the game.
...so if we all snuck over to NGC boards and lurked quietly, how long before we'd hit a thread titled "I'm Done with PCGS' because of their cronic undergrading"
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
I would evaluate that position again if I were you. Every dealer on the planet will want more for a coin that "may" be undergraded by telling you it has a shot at an upgrade. They will all use OGH's, Rattlers and beans as selling points. Dealers who price coins high that have a shot at upgrade but won't discount coins that are weak for the grade are dealers you should not be dealing with.
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these." >>
He also says in the first paragraph on his website the following:
Additionally, it may serve one well to remember the phrase "buy what you like with money you can afford to lose."
MJ >>
Leave it to TomB to talk out of both sides of his mouth. "
REALLY .... ALL OF THAT IS CONSISTENT ... nearly everyone should expect to lose on their purchases (and if they gain ... fantastic!) other than the 5% of the "best and the brightest" out there. TomB is in that 5% ... no question. The other 95% .... TomB has given them fair warning
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
This is a good thread. In it some have put their foot in their mouth and then needed a dozen posts to try to remove it, others have stated their positions clearly with examples and yet others have faced the corner put their index fingers in each ear and did the LaLaLa chorus not even listening to some well thought, logical replies...Jeremy's come to mind as usual.
I am a little perplexed that on a board like this that attracts coin collectors who are in the top end of the hobby, there are so many who have such little faith in their own abilities to look at something...a coin, appraise it for its own attributes....it's grade, and make a decision on their own...not be a weenie for a specific Logo on a label stating an opinion.
<< <i>There have been so many coins I have purchased in NGC holders over the years, and 90% of them have come back significantly lower when crossed or cracked out and submitted to PCGS. Now many of these coins were purchased years ago when I started collecting and did not know how to grade as well as I do now. But it seems to me the newer holders contain many coins that are overgraded by more than one grade. I have seen multiple examples of this.
I know many here say buy the coin not the holder, but after being burned so many times, I am hesitant buying a coin in an NGC holder unless it is CAC'd. If the grade is on the borderline when you look at it, it most likely will be one grade less when you send it to PCGS. With this overgrading, it is no surprise that many major dealers send their coins to NGC in order to max out the coin.
Fire away. AJ >>
Ankur,
Lately, I have been having the opposite effect recently.
The overriding message I have seen in this thread: Buy nice coins and learn to grade yourself. Grading is subjective no matter what anyone else tries to tell you.
I recently purchased a partial set of walkers in mint state, all MS 65 or better. All but 14 were in PCGS holders. I sent the 14 coins in NGC holders in for crossing over to PCGS, still in the holders. All fourteen crossed, and two or three upgraded, these upgrades ranged from a plus to a full grade.
These were nice coins. The professionals that grade at PCGS and NGC do a darn good job on the overwhelimng majority of the coins they grade.
Comments
<< <i>There have been so many coins I have purchased in NGC holders over the years, and 90% of them have come back significantly lower when crossed or cracked out and submitted to PCGS. >>
You should learn to grade to PCGS standard and not rely on another grading company if you want your coins to end-up in PCGS holders.
Just a thought.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Instagram: 8 Reales Numis
Summary:
One coin upgraded up by three grades, 6 coins upgraded by two grades, 28 coins upgraded by one grade, 23 coins crossed at same grade, and one coin downgraded by one grade.
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
All the time dealers overprice coins, whether they are dogs, glorious, correctly graded, damaged, etc. You are going to pay what you are going to pay, and the dealer is going to accept what he is going to accept. If the numbers line up, you can buy the coin. Everything else is irrelevant.
Look at it another (extreme) way. Suppose a coin is graded MS67 by NGC and then graded MS64 by PCGS.
A- If the coin is really a 67, then asking 67 money is right, regardless of the holder. If the dealer can only get MS64 money for the coin in the PCGS holder, then PCGS has done him a disservice. But anyone buying the coin should know it is beyond amazing for the grade, and the cost should change with that knowledge. This coin would sell in seconds at the 64 level.
B- If the coin really is a 64, then anyone who buys it as a 67 has no idea what to look for when grading. NGC has done a disservice to the buyer, but the buyer has done a disservice to himself. This is going to be a very hard coin to move at the 67 price level.
C- If the coin is really a 65 or 66, there's a combination of the two scenarios above.
What do we learn from this? The coin itself is important. The number may help an unskilled (or unscrupulous) dealer determine a price, but however they arrive at a price, and however the buyer arrives at a price, the coin only sells if an agreement is made.
Besides, how often do we hear stories where a dealer will say any coin they have for sale is undergraded, and any coin they are buying is overgraded? If you're not dealing with someone who is going to be honest with the coins he is handling, what difference does the slab make?
<< <i>Here's what happened when one major Dahlonega collection was crossed from PCGS to NGC.
Summary:
One coin upgraded up by three grades, 6 coins upgraded by two grades, 28 coins upgraded by one grade, 23 coins crossed at same grade, and one coin downgraded by one grade. >>
Thanks - Case Closed.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>How many all NGC registry sets have we seen come to the national auctions each year? None that I can think of. I think back to Dick Osburn's seated half set at last summer's ANA. Only 3% of the NGC coins stickered while 38% of the PCGS ones did. Those numbers fall far outside any bell curve and outside anyone picking purely at random. 55% of the 150 coins
in that set were NGC.
>>
Say I open my own TPG and call it JRCGS
I am a tough grader and regularly grade on a strict curve. What you call a 50 I label a 45, what you call a 58 I label a 53, you 65 me 63 and so on.
Chances are a large percentage of my slabs will sticker, bean, star, plus whatever your flavor of the year is.
Does that mean all the other TPG's should start grading to my standard to please those that like stickers and put the actual coin second?
Grade the darn coin like a coin collector should and price/value it based on the coin.
If you buy an XF45 coin that is in an AU 55 holder than you need to look in the mirror not at the label.
Great line!
There's nothing wrong with buying an XF45 coin in an AU55 holder if:
1. You know it and do not care or
2. You care and you pay XF45 money for it
The real problem is buying an AU55 coin in an XF45 holder and thinking you are getting an AU55 coin.
<< <i> You should learn to grade to PCGS standard and not rely on another grading company if you want your coins to end-up in PCGS holders.
Just a thought. >>
All very true. But don't we all preach to buy the coin first, holder second?
What the real answer is as many have already stated, is to buy them in PCGS holders to begin with. Then no fuss, no muss later on.
Ironically, for a brief shining moment back in late 1987 and early 1988, NGC coins were actually preferred to PCGS, and bringing premiums.
Their grading standards were a bit tight out of the gate. I recall getting a PF65 on my toner 1904 barber half that came from a gem superb orig proof
set 5 yrs earlier in 1983. I paid 67 money back then. I nearly died when I first saw it in a 65 holder and now "worth 40% less" on paper. I had the coin
regraded months later and it went NGC PF66. Today it resides in a 67 holder though I'm not sure which one. It would be anyone's 67 today.
JRocco's idea of grading tougher than anyone works well in a down market. But don't try that in a bull market where higher grades are desired by everyone
as the grading envelope gets pushed out. Grading tough in 2005-2008 would have just lead to your business failing. No one wanted tight grades then.
Jim
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If you send any coin for an upgrade in one holder or another, without the stipulation of no grade degradation, then the coin
could possibly "gennie" or BB, right. As I stated, if you are sending the coin in it's NGC holder willing to accept whatever PCGS
grade that it gets, couldn't it possibly get a "gennie" or BB? I really have not heard anyone complaining of getting their NGC coins
BB'd, while I am sure it has happened. >>
I do not believe this is correct.
If you try a cross at any grade and PCGS feels it should BB it will be returned in the original holder.
Lance. >>
Thats only if you select "do not holder genuine". >>
No. "Do not holder genuine" is for use with raw coins you want returned raw if they have problems.
PCGS will not break out a coin from a problem-free holder to place it in a BB or "genuine" holder.
I suppose you could ask to have this done but why would you?
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i> You should learn to grade to PCGS standard and not rely on another grading company if you want your coins to end-up in PCGS holders.
Just a thought. >>
All very true. But don't we all preach to buy the coin first, holder second?
What the real answer is as many have already stated, is to buy them in PCGS holders to begin with. Then no fuss, no muss later on. >>
This would work for US coins, for sure.
Majority of graded world coins are unfortunately in NGC holders. That's one of the reasons I prefer to buy world coins raw based on the merits of the coin itself and have it slabbed. At this point, looking at a raw 8 Reales in-hand, I can pretty accurately tell you what grade it would receive if i was to send it to NGC or PCGS. Quite often there's at least a 1-2 point difference between the two, as was discussed already. The problem with PCGS when it comes to World coins is the lack of expertise in more specialized areas of world coin collecting (like, for example, my area of collecting - Mexico War of Independence 1811-1821).
8 Reales Madness Collection
Instagram: 8 Reales Numis
As for the grading: it cuts both ways. I have had NGC-slabbed silver coins bumped up a notch by PCGS.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
At this point, in that one series, I felt I could grade reasonably well. It is my opinion that for high grade Mercs NGC was typically one point higher on quite a consistent basis. This opinion was typical of the group and expressed often. It was not a bash at NGC, but rather a view of how they grade and their standards up to that time. I do not believe things have changed much over the years and to get "all the money" a coin will typically reside in a PCGS holder, often with a CAC bean.
You really have to know the grading standards for the series you are interested in to buy or sell at the proper price point and apply that to both the grade on the holder and the holder it is in. That is why in many series NGC trades for less than PCGS. These are generalities, but they hold over the long run and over a a large group of coins. Does that mean NGC will never cross, NO. It does mean you have to have a good eye for what is in the holder and how PCGS will view that coin. The true test is cracking the coin out when you submit it as then it becomes a blind test for PCGS.
So my final comments are, good coins are good coins, but you have to know the standard of the grading service and price them accordingly. No one is shocked when a coin does not cross from NGC, although MANY do. It is also why I only keep PCGS slabs in my collection long term, but that is my preference and not necessarily a recommendation for all.
<< <i>Here's what happened when one major Dahlonega collection was crossed from PCGS to NGC.
Summary:
One coin upgraded up by three grades, 6 coins upgraded by two grades, 28 coins upgraded by one grade, 23 coins crossed at same grade, and one coin downgraded by one grade. >>
Wow....
I know it doesn't matter to some here, but I can bet most of the upgrades wouldn't CAC.
Talk about maxing out. Probably why some big coin brokerage carry mostly NGC coins even though they're located in California.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
And don't tell me that will never happen.
<< <i>Wow....
I know it doesn't matter to some here, but I can bet most of the upgrades wouldn't CAC.
Talk about maxing out. Probably why some big coin brokerage carry mostly NGC coins even though they're located in California.
>>
You're right, it doesn't matter. With or without a sticker, a coin is either low, normal, or great for the grade. Numerous people have already written here that their NGC + CAC coins didn't cross to PCGS, so maybe you should consider that a reason to no longer trust CAC, either. And besides, a coin not stickering doesn't mean it doesn't merit the grade it received. You do understand CAC's scale, right?
And yes, do talk about maxing out. Someone made the decision that this move was in their financial interest. The coins haven't changed, and if you're a buyer at $3MM, then I sure as anything hope you know what you're doing, plastic notwithstanding.
And finally, as far as a CA company sending coins all the way to FL, let me just say that aviation really made the world a smaller place...
<< <i>Ah...but just wait until the coin market weakens in the future and both of these companies decide/need to merge to survive (or grow revenue)...then suddenly all their slabs will instantly become valid at any and all grades!
And don't tell me that will never happen. >>
It will never happen.
$ makes for strange bedfellows!
<< <i>I'm sure employees at Northrop/Grumman, United/Continental Airlines and Macy's/Bambergers/Filenes/May/Jordan Marsh/Marshall Field (and countless others) might have said the same thing too...!
$ makes for strange bedfellows! >>
Apples and oranges. You can't compare an industry with two major players (and that has stayed steady basically for the entire duration those companies have existed) whose business relies in large part to their competition to much broader industries where mergers are required to stay competitive in an ever-changing market with new needs and players emerging often.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ah...but just wait until the coin market weakens in the future and both of these companies decide/need to merge to survive (or grow revenue)...then suddenly all their slabs will instantly become valid at any and all grades!
And don't tell me that will never happen. >>
It will never happen. >>
At least in our lifetime.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>In slabs of BOTH top tier grading companies you can find:
- beautiful coins
- ugly coins
- overgraded coins
- undergraded coins
- problem coins in normal holders
- problem-free coins in problem holders
As one forum member recently said, "Cool coins are cool coins regardless of grade and designations."
People get so caught up in whether a coin is the "correct" slab or not.
How many times have we heard it: "Buy the coin, not the holder."
You know what I do when I'm looking for coins to buy?
I completely ignore the slab and I make my decision solely based on if I like the coin's merits compared to its price.
I couldn't care less what some anonymous-to-me group of coin graders thinks; it's about what *I* think.
As long as I purchase according to this standard, I'll be happy with my coins and I should be fine when it comes time to sell.
By playing the crossover game, one has to know that they take a risk: you may come out ahead, but you may also come out behind.
If you take the risk and then complain about the results, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
If some people refuse to buy coins in other TPG slabs, that's all the better for me because it means less competition for some coins. >>
".....I should be fine when it comes time to sell."While I agree with the oft cited 'buy the coin not the holder' , I am not sure I agree with this comment
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I don't profess to be close to professional in my grading abilities, but I have no problems in buying what I like raw/ngc/pcgs or whatnot, as long as I understand the risks and am comfortable with the coin myself.
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to be truly saddened by the folks who NEED a certain plastic or sticker in order to feel like they are ok with their purchase, but I am shocked and a bit saddened.
Kind of like asking a kid to use a rotary style phone now...they are so used to cellphone and wireless that they may not know how to do it. Stuck on plastic and live/die by that label.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I think you should spend more times honing in your own grading abilities rather than having to depend on the right mix of plastic and stickers.
-Paul >>
This.
In the late 90s, I decided to buy some Unc. Large and Half Cents. Braided Hair and Coronet Type Unc Large Cents were readily available. Half-Cents, not so much so, but you could find them. So I went to Long Beach Shows, and looked at as many of these coins as I could find in grades of MS 64 and MS 65.
After looking at between 60 and 100 of these coins, I noticed some trends. Mainly, the PCGS coins in these grades usually -- but not always -- had a contact mark or two less which one could spot with the naked eye than their NGC counterparts. They often had one less speck of carbon as well. I said 'usually,' because this was not always the case.
What you probably did was buy some low end for the grade NGC coins and when you tried to sell them, you got screwed.
There are plenty of nice for the grade NGC coins out there that people didn't want to be bothered with spending money getting them stickered, or trying to upgrade or cross these coins. People making comments like the OP have made such coins attractive to individuals who can distinguish what is a nice for the grade coin.
A nice coin will bring a price to match. The rest of it is marketing.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>The thread makes it painfully obvious who some of the real collectors of coins are....and who some of the plastic slaves are.
I don't profess to be close to professional in my grading abilities, but I have no problems in buying what I like raw/ngc/pcgs or whatnot, as long as I understand the risks and am comfortable with the coin myself.
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to be truly saddened by the folks who NEED a certain plastic or sticker in order to feel like they are ok with their purchase, but I am shocked and a bit saddened.
Kind of like asking a kid to use a rotary style phone now...they are so used to cellphone and wireless that they may not know how to do it. Stuck on plastic and live/die by that label. >>
Bochiman, to each their own. You can buy your way, and I will buy my way. For investment liquidity, I will stick to the plastic and sticker. No need for you to be shocked or saddend. When down the line my collection is sold, you will see the difference what the right plastic and sticker can do. Then, you will be shocked as to how right I was.
The series I collect I know how to grade for the most part. But with coin doctors becoming so good at what they do, I am hesitant buying higher priced raw coins.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>For investment liquidity >>
Ah, so you're not a collector. Noted.
<< <i>
<< <i>For investment liquidity >>
Ah, so you're not a collector. Noted. >>
Call is whatever you want. I know I love my coins and have no plans to sell them in the near future. However if something were to happen to me, the liquidity of my investments will mean a great deal to my wife and kids. I would hate for them to be left with utter crap which is worthless. If you are spending money on anything other than food and clothing, you are investing your time and money. At the end of the day, we are all investors and collectors.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>I would hate for them to be left with utter crap which is worthless. >>
So now coins that aren't PCGS & CAC are utter crap and worthless?
As an investor I suppose it's much different.
As a collector/investor I bet it can get confusing. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>I would hate for them to be left with utter crap which is worthless. >>
So now coins that aren't PCGS & CAC are utter crap and worthless? >>
No, I never said that. I am talking about the overgraded maxed out and problem coins in problem free holders as discussed earlier. Maybe worthless is a harsh word to use. So let me rephrase that. I wouldnt want them to be left with overgraded or problem coins where the initial investment cant be recovered, even after a number of years.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these."
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Well said Alan!
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these." >>
He also says in the first paragraph on his website the following:
Additionally, it may serve one well to remember the phrase "buy what you like with money you can afford to lose."
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>Well said Alan!
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these." >>
He also says in the first paragraph on his website the following:
Additionally, it may serve one well to remember the phrase "buy what you like with money you can afford to lose."
MJ >>
Leave it to TomB to talk out of both sides of his mouth.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well said Alan!
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these." >>
He also says in the first paragraph on his website the following:
Additionally, it may serve one well to remember the phrase "buy what you like with money you can afford to lose."
MJ >>
Leave it to TomB to talk out of both sides of his mouth.
He is usually the smartest guy in the room and for good reason
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Here's an interesting thought experiment. Suppose one of them suddenly went out of business. With only one top service, would their standards stand up over years and decades or would they start to drift? Without another standard to "calibrate" from, I'd guess the remaining service would become less consistent over time. Competition drives quality and consistency.
Any way I look at this thread there really isn't any way to get around the fact that an average collector is not guaranteed success when buying coins based purely on a TPG's assesment. It's enormously better than the world that used to exist when everything was raw, but there is still room enough to get into trouble. This is true for the average collector who is only looking to get their money back when it's time to cash in and even more true for someone who is deluded enough to think they're actually making money while playing the game.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Maybe a hour or two...?
<< <i>Some here have said that when you look at a coin, grade it with the scrutiny that PCGS grades it. How many of you have tried purchasing a coin from a dealer and have started negotiations by saying the coin is overgraded? I doubt you will get far. I think very few dealers will openly admit a coin is overgraded and be willing to accept less for it. >>
I would evaluate that position again if I were you. Every dealer on the planet will want more for a coin that "may" be undergraded by telling you it has a shot at an upgrade. They will all use OGH's, Rattlers and beans as selling points. Dealers who price coins high that have a shot at upgrade but won't discount coins that are weak for the grade are dealers you should not be dealing with.
A very wise forum member, TomB said this in regards to coins as investments:
"Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I believe that at least part of the reason that the idea that numismatics is not an investment has been hammered at collectors over the decades is so that those collectors will not seek a positive return on their investment when it comes time to sell and that those collectors will be of a mindset that it is not only okay to lose part of the initial investment, but that one should expect to lost part of the initial investment. For me, I invest time, money and energy in numismatics and I wish to waste none of these." >>
He also says in the first paragraph on his website the following:
Additionally, it may serve one well to remember the phrase "buy what you like with money you can afford to lose."
MJ >>
Leave it to TomB to talk out of both sides of his mouth. "
REALLY .... ALL OF THAT IS CONSISTENT ... nearly everyone should expect to lose on their purchases (and if they gain ... fantastic!) other than the 5% of the "best and the brightest" out there. TomB is in that 5% ... no question. The other 95% .... TomB has given them fair warning
Wondercoin
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
In it some have put their foot in their mouth and then needed a dozen posts to try to remove it, others have stated their positions clearly with examples and yet others have faced the corner put their index fingers in each ear and did the LaLaLa chorus not even listening to some well thought, logical replies...Jeremy's come to mind as usual.
I am a little perplexed that on a board like this that attracts coin collectors who are in the top end of the hobby, there are so many who have such little faith in their own abilities to look at something...a coin, appraise it for its own attributes....it's grade, and make a decision on their own...not be a weenie for a specific Logo on a label stating an opinion.
<< <i>There have been so many coins I have purchased in NGC holders over the years, and 90% of them have come back significantly lower when crossed or cracked out and submitted to PCGS. Now many of these coins were purchased years ago when I started collecting and did not know how to grade as well as I do now. But it seems to me the newer holders contain many coins that are overgraded by more than one grade. I have seen multiple examples of this.
I know many here say buy the coin not the holder, but after being burned so many times, I am hesitant buying a coin in an NGC holder unless it is CAC'd. If the grade is on the borderline when you look at it, it most likely will be one grade less when you send it to PCGS. With this overgrading, it is no surprise that many major dealers send their coins to NGC in order to max out the coin.
Fire away.
AJ >>
Ankur,
Lately, I have been having the opposite effect recently.
I recently purchased a partial set of walkers in mint state, all MS 65 or better. All but 14 were in PCGS holders. I sent the 14 coins in NGC holders in for crossing over to PCGS, still in the holders. All fourteen crossed, and two or three upgraded, these upgrades ranged from a plus to a full grade.
These were nice coins. The professionals that grade at PCGS and NGC do a darn good job on the overwhelimng majority of the coins they grade.
<< <i>Just over on the Apple iPhone forum there is a poster complaining he's done with Android phones... >>
Koolaid comes in multiple flavors.
Right?
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>Just over on the Apple iPhone forum there is a poster complaining he's done with Android phones... >>
Koolaid comes in multiple flavors. >>
Complainers are everywhere!