<< <i>Here is my last crack out I ever did!! I believe that pcgs gives bulk submitters better grades.
Well I recently picked up 20 1975-S Roosevelts all in PCGS holders. I ended up cracking out 8 of them and submitted them to NGC......well I was totally shocked by the results. I will never play the crack out game again. I though all of them were ultra cameo or I wouldn't of even submitted them!! >>
I don't understand this at all, what did you hope to gain? 70? >>
The way some people prefer to have all their coin graded by company A, others may prefer to have all their coins graded by company B
If you go to company A's site, they are the bomb. If you go to company B's site, they are the bomb.
Me - I try to be my own boss. If I screw up I blame myself and don't run around blaming others that I blindly trusted.
<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders for cross-overs and non crossed. These were absolutely gorgeous. Since then, I won't even bother with NGC !!! >>
This is the type of statement that rings quite hollow. Sorry. But, you liked the coins you bought in gem NGC holders and now you don't like them because PCGS refused to cross them. WTH?
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade. I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS. I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
Why are you immediately assuming the NGC higher grade is wrong and the correct grade is the lower PCGS grade? Could it be possible that the NGC grade is correct and the PCGS grade is under-grading the coin? Or maybe an average of the two? Or maybe PCGS errs on the side of a lower grade and NGC errs on the side of a higher grade? Or maybe they are both consistent to their own grading standards. Yours may fall in line with TPG-A while mine may fall in line with TPG-B. You are making a blanket assumption that may not be correct and may be misleading in one direction. >>
I was going on TDNs opinion. He has a lot of experience in these series. --Jerry
My differences have more to do with how much unoriginality is allowed at the gem grade and less to do with numerical issues. I often disagree with BOTH services on the latter.
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade. I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS. I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
But that goes against Ankur's own example. When PCGS graded his coin, he had to know that the coin was better than the grade and sell it higher (and the buyer had to know that, too), or else Ankur would have left money on the table given the PCGS grade. If everyone in a transaction puts blind faith in the grade, undergrading and overgrading differ only in which of the two parties are hurt or helped by the grade being wrong.
<< <i>If you buy coins you like, no matter what the the grade or the holder, the grade on the holder becomes less meaningful. Additionally, when I look to buy an NGC-graded coin, I give it my own grade and ask myself if I would be satisfied with the coin at that price, in a PCGS holder, at my grade minus 1or 2.
For example, late last year I purchased a coin in a NGC 53 holder. I graded the coin 50 but would have been satisfied owning the coin, at that price, in a PCGS 45 or 50 holder. In this case, I misjudged and the coin crossed at 53.
The other point is that I rarely would buy said coin in a grade where a step or two back would mean a huge financial hit (like a Dahlonega $5 in 63).
Finally, I have not found that the green sticker necessarily provides a safety net in the process of trying to cross a coin. >>
Hmmmm,Doesn't CAC gaurantee the grade? If not what's the point of CAC ing a coin?????
Out of those four coins in the op's post two seem to not have enough luster for pcgs's taste i bet for a higher grade. On a tablet so keeping it short.
I actually went through and read nearly this entire thread. Ankur, I will give you credit for starting and interesting and informative thread, at the risk at taking some criticism.
Here are some thoughts from my experiences, which I would say are more than some and less than others.
Grading is an art, not a science. Because of this, all grading services and all individual graders have a level of inconsistency in grading. How many of you have looked at a coin and graded it one way a certain day, then looked back at the coin on a later date and graded it differently.......I know I have. A lot of collectors and dealers alike have made (and lost) money due to the inconsistency of grading. It's not an indictment against the services, just reality.
For example, here are a few experiences from grading resubmissions in the past year:
- A coin broken out of a SEGS holder upgraded 2 grades at PCGS - Several circulated coins broken out of NGC holders went from AG to G at and VG to F at PCGS - A coin broken out of a new ANACS AU-58 holder graded MS-63 at PCGS - An expensive $10 Indian in an NGC MS-66 holder did not CAC, then was crossed successfully to PCGS plastic and did CAC (sorry Ankur, even CAC is not 100%, although I respect their ability to judge freshness) - A coin in a PCGS MS-65 holder did not CAC, then upgraded to MS-66 and CAC'd - A couple coins in NGC holders did not cross at PCGS - A very nice Morgan crossed from NGC to PCGS as a MS-66 - PCGS called a coin "questionable color" and NGC graded it. - NGC called a coin cleaned and PCGS graded it. - The same coin graded questionable color, MS-62, MS-63 & MS-64 at PCGS over a 6 month period.
My point is just to show that coins can be viewed differently on different days and that grading is NOT a science. That said PCGS and NGC do seem to have differing standards regarding how they grade certain series at present. For example, my experiences have been that NGC grades early gold on a looser curve than PCGS. NGC is more likey to bump a grade on a coin with nice color than PCGS, although both services do award originality on coins. In my experience, NGC is grading circulated silver tighther than PCGS in grades of XF and lower. PCGS will reward a blast white Morgan dollar with dripping luster, while NGC will reward a Morgan with color or original skin. There are (and likely always will be) coins in all holders that shouldn't be, and there are some expensive coins out there in holders that have problems (as TDN mentioned).
All of that said, the market certainly favors coins that are PCGS and CAC'd at present....that combination realizes the highest price in most cases. That said, if you watch auctions, an exceptional NGC coin will bring a lot of money of it is viewed as nice........as will an exceptional raw coin. While I think it is important to understand how the grading services differ in certain coin series and how the market view coins in different holders, to only look at coins in one holder or one holder/sticker combination will cause someone to miss a lot of opportunities.
Just my two cents and young experiences and not intended to offend anyone. I encourage all collectors to educate themselves and learn as much about grading as possible.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
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You know what is funny...as I read through this thread I realize that someone could start another one titled "I'm done with PCGS, they undergrade way too much".
Because most everyone here seems to think that what PCGS says the grade is on a coin is absolute gospel. Does PCGS get it right 100% of the time? Obvioulsy not and when you send in a CAC stickered NGC coin and it doesn't cross you really have to ask yourself why that is. Standards are one thing, but graders move around quite a bit from place to place. Ans so some here seem to believe that when a grader enters the door at PCGS he/she instantly has a 100% accuracy in grading and when they leave to go to NGC they suddenly get stupid by a factor of 50.
The reality is that both companies are guilty of overgrading and undergrading coins. I've seen overgraded NGC coins and PCGS coins. In fact most of the CBH's I've see in PCGS MS holders look like they've been run over by a train and thrown down six flights of stairs. So as a result I don't own any PCGS MS CBH's for that reason. If/when I find one I like then great. As many have said there it is about buying the coin. I am by no means the world's leading grader and I do put a strong emphasis on the TPG's grade, but I use it as a baseline and work from there. If it doesn't look NGC?PCGS 63 then I won't pay 63 money for it, it's that simple.
So let the war rage on. For me I own coins in both types of holders, though I do prefer the new NGC Edgeviews. I didn't like their older ones. Just keep in mind that TPG is still suggestive and seems to be a phenomenon closer to art than science.
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade. I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS. I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
When PCGS graded his coin, he had to know that the coin was better than the grade and sell it higher (and the buyer had to know that, too), or else Ankur would have left money on the table given the PCGS grade. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from PCGS for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was better than PCGS thought that it was.
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade. I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS. I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
When PCGS graded his coin, he had to know that the coin was better than the grade and sell it higher (and the buyer had to know that, too), or else Ankur would have left money on the table given the PCGS grade. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from PCGS for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was better than PCGS thought that it was. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from NGC for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was lower than NGC thought that it was.
Excellent posts Robbie and Phantom. I agree that there seems to be an ever changing standard and a grade can change from one day to the next. I guess the main thing is to trust your eye. I too have had coins that did not grade at NGC that did at PCGS. I have also had coins that were CACd in lower grade NGC holders, upgraded at PCGS, and CACd again. I guess nothing can be 100% in grading.
I am not completely dismissing coins in NGC holders. But I feel that I just need to be much more critical of them because I seem to find more inconsistencies, especially with Bust coinage. I currently have a 1795 Flowing hair dollar NGC XF45 CAC at PCGS at an attempt to cross it. PCGS would not cross it at the same grade, so I wrote in that I would accept one grade lower. Its purely for registry reasons. When I saw the coin and compared it to images in photograde, I felt it was a XF45. Will see what happens.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade. I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS. I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
When PCGS graded his coin, he had to know that the coin was better than the grade and sell it higher (and the buyer had to know that, too), or else Ankur would have left money on the table given the PCGS grade. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from PCGS for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was better than PCGS thought that it was. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from NGC for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was lower than NGC thought that it was. >>
I can understand the resentment over your large cent ordeal. I agree that the mark was unacceptable at the grade. I hope you were able to recoup your money. >>
Ha. You remember that one. An NGC-graded petite, head large letters, AU58. With a big rim ding hidden under the prong. Discovered after cracking.
NGC wouldn't agree that the cent was overgraded. They offered to reholder it so I could sell it to the next sucker. I said no thanks. It's still a great coin I like very much. It's just not an AU58.
It's probably just me but I have never gotten satisfaction from NGC on overgraded copper. PCGS has come through on their guarantee more than a dozen times. Lance.
I have found and purchased rather nice coins in NGC slabs, but I'd prefer to have them in PCGS slabs, if for nothing else I like the style, dimensions and look of the PCGS slab better, and I love the look of Gold and nicely toned coins in the old rattlers.
I have been extremely glad that NGC made the effort to grade Tokens and Medals.
NumbersUsa, FairUs, Alipac, CapsWeb, and TeamAmericaPac
<< <i>I actually went through and read nearly this entire thread. Ankur, I will give you credit for starting and interesting and informative thread, at the risk at taking some criticism.
Here are some thoughts from my experiences, which I would say are more than some and less than others.
Grading is an art, not a science. Because of this, all grading services and all individual graders have a level of inconsistency in grading. How many of you have looked at a coin and graded it one way a certain day, then looked back at the coin on a later date and graded it differently.......I know I have. A lot of collectors and dealers alike have made (and lost) money due to the inconsistency of grading. It's not an indictment against the services, just reality.
For example, here are a few experiences from grading resubmissions in the past year:
- A coin broken out of a SEGS holder upgraded 2 grades at PCGS - Several circulated coins broken out of NGC holders went from AG to G at and VG to F at PCGS - A coin broken out of a new ANACS AU-58 holder graded MS-63 at PCGS - An expensive $10 Indian in an NGC MS-66 holder did not CAC, then was crossed successfully to PCGS plastic and did CAC (sorry Ankur, even CAC is not 100%, although I respect their ability to judge freshness) - A coin in a PCGS MS-65 holder did not CAC, then upgraded to MS-66 and CAC'd - A couple coins in NGC holders did not cross at PCGS - A very nice Morgan crossed from NGC to PCGS as a MS-66 - PCGS called a coin "questionable color" and NGC graded it. - NGC called a coin cleaned and PCGS graded it. - The same coin graded questionable color, MS-62, MS-63 & MS-64 at PCGS over a 6 month period.
My point is just to show that coins can be viewed differently on different days and that grading is NOT a science. That said PCGS and NGC do seem to have differing standards regarding how they grade certain series at present. For example, my experiences have been that NGC grades early gold on a looser curve than PCGS. NGC is more likey to bump a grade on a coin with nice color than PCGS, although both services do award originality on coins. In my experience, NGC is grading circulated silver tighther than PCGS in grades of XF and lower. PCGS will reward a blast white Morgan dollar with dripping luster, while NGC will reward a Morgan with color or original skin. There are (and likely always will be) coins in all holders that shouldn't be, and there are some expensive coins out there in holders that have problems (as TDN mentioned).
All of that said, the market certainly favors coins that are PCGS and CAC'd at present....that combination realizes the highest price in most cases. That said, if you watch auctions, an exceptional NGC coin will bring a lot of money of it is viewed as nice........as will an exceptional raw coin. While I think it is important to understand how the grading services differ in certain coin series and how the market view coins in different holders, to only look at coins in one holder or one holder/sticker combination will cause someone to miss a lot of opportunities.
Just my two cents and young experiences and not intended to offend anyone. I encourage all collectors to educate themselves and learn as much about grading as possible. >>
I think this is well written and share these thoughts as well
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Grading certainly isn't a science, all third party grading services overgrade and undergrade coins frequently. Grading consistency is for the most part non-existent. What is really surprising is when a coin is clearly overgraded and then is CAC'd. A perfect example of this can be found on Heritage's sight right now. Check out the 1903 barber quarter XF40 CAC listing in the coming soon auctions at Heritage. I will say that PCGS has the highest level of consistency among third party graders in my opinion.
Some of the very best coins I have been able to buy started out in NGC holders. That is all I am going to say.
Yep - I want that J211 NGC 67 back!
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
That was some good read. I particularly liked the following points made by Greg Reynolds;
Since 2009, there has been a trend of fewer buyers blindly accepting certified grades without thinking about the physical characteristics of the respective coins. More buyers now seek to learn about the details of the coins that they are considering buying.
In regards to expensive coins being offered at auction, each collector-bidder should consult an expert before committing to pay a large sum. Two coins of the same type and date that have received the same numerical grade from the same service may be very different
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I may get flamed for saying this, but I am done with NGC >>
I might get flamed for saying this, but I'm pretty much done with PCGS, and NGC will be getting most of my submission money in the near future.
Really.
I can explain, though. Note that this is not necessarily PCGS's fault. It's just what I'm collecting. My slab needs run primarily to ancient coins right now, and... well... PCGS doesn't go there. So there you have it. If they ever hired up the requisite brain trust necessary andstarted grading ancients, I'd probably come back aboard for at least a few submissions.
For the small scale of what I do, though, I've come around (again) to the idea that I'm better off just buying the slabworthy stuff I want already slabbed. Saves on some of the hassle, expense, and guesswork, though it also takes the "windfall" option off the table.
Ancient coins, it ain't so easy to do. Everything slabbed there tends to be grossly overpriced, and it's still a new game so the selection is small. You want slabbed ancients, you pretty much have to "make" 'em yourself with submissions, or pay out the wazoo for 'em.
This is going to sound very superficial, but this is where I stand. There are two varieties that I prefer in an NGC holder. Franklin FBL's, and Seated Liberty Halves. I'm quite happy with the standards, PCGS grading standards, and PCGS holders. My fear is that PCGS will dampen its professionalism with marketing or become to powerful. What I mean by this is that while I believe it to be an outstanding service, the buyer dictates the coin world, not a TPG.
You know when you just crack coins out of 3rd party service holders and put them into nice 3 X 3 screw together Capital holders, you can then just admire and be happy with your coins in a nice high quality holder and not concern yourself with arbitrary numbers, designations, crossovers, bodybags, little colored stickers, upgrades, downgrades, no grades, etc.
I have a 5" stack of grading tags in my desk drawer going back to 1987. It's just too bad that PCGS / NGC don't have little books you can paste all your grading tags in like the old S&H green stamp books. I figure I have enough for at least a new toaster and a set of Libby glassware by now.
<< <i>You know when you just crack coins out of 3rd party service holders and put them into nice 3 X 3 screw together Capital holders, you can then just admire and be happy with your coins in a nice high quality holder and not concern yourself with arbitrary numbers, designations, crossovers, bodybags, little colored stickers, upgrades, downgrades, no grades, etc.
I have a 5" stack of grading tags in my desk drawer going back to 1987. It's just too bad that PCGS / NGC don't have little books you can paste all your grading tags in like the old S&H green stamp books. I figure I have enough for at least a new toaster and a set of Libby glassware by now. >>
They will pay a bounty for those tags! I think it's 50 cents a piece.
<< <i>You know when you just crack coins out of 3rd party service holders and put them into nice 3 X 3 screw together Capital holders, you can then just admire and be happy with your coins in a nice high quality holder and not concern yourself with arbitrary numbers, designations, crossovers, bodybags, little colored stickers, upgrades, downgrades, no grades, etc.
I have a 5" stack of grading tags in my desk drawer going back to 1987. It's just too bad that PCGS / NGC don't have little books you can paste all your grading tags in like the old S&H green stamp books. I figure I have enough for at least a new toaster and a set of Libby glassware by now. >>
They will pay a bounty for those tags! I think it's 50 cents a piece. >>
My cert stack is only 2" tall and half are NGC. I can stack gaskets more than a foot, though.
I keep the certs for the raw coins in my collection. Those from resubmissions go back to the TPG's. Lance.
I have no opinion on PCGS vs. NGC because my collection is evenly divided between the two, and I've tried to adhere to the golden rule of buying the coin and not the kool-aid, but I was curious on an average across the board comparison, of what the difference is in prices realized is between the two services? Again I must stress that I try to keep an open mind that there are quality coins in both companies holders.
Beer is Proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy -Benjamin Franklin-
<< <i>Ah...but just wait until the coin market weakens in the future and both of these companies decide/need to merge to survive (or grow revenue)...then suddenly all their slabs will instantly become valid at any and all grades!
And don't tell me that will never happen. >>
That will never happen.
"Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end."
<<Why are the lowballers conspicuously absent from this thread?
Are they over in the corner licking their chops?>>
<< <i>What and who are the lowballers you speak of, and why would they be licking their chops to this thread? >>
The low ballers are the collectors that aspire to have complete set(S) in a series with coins bearing the lowest possible grades. Facetiously I remarked that they must be licking their chops. After all, if you have some NGC coins that you would prefer to be designated a point or three lower. Just send them to PCGS and chances are you will receive the grade(s) you want. Should work like magic!
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is my last crack out I ever did!!
I believe that pcgs gives bulk submitters better grades.
Well I recently picked up 20 1975-S Roosevelts all in PCGS holders.
I ended up cracking out 8 of them and submitted them to NGC......well I was totally
shocked by the results. I will never play the crack out game again.
I though all of them were ultra cameo or I wouldn't of even submitted them!!
I don't understand this at all, what did you hope to gain? 70? >>
The way some people prefer to have all their coin graded by company A, others may prefer to
have all their coins graded by company B
If you go to company A's site, they are the bomb.
If you go to company B's site, they are the bomb.
Me - I try to be my own boss.
If I screw up I blame myself and don't run around blaming others that I blindly trusted.
<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders
for cross-overs and non crossed. These
were absolutely gorgeous. Since then,
I won't even bother with NGC !!! >>
This is the type of statement that rings quite hollow. Sorry. But, you liked the coins you bought in gem NGC holders and now you don't like them because PCGS refused to cross them. WTH?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade.
I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS.
I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
Why are you immediately assuming the NGC higher grade is wrong and the correct grade is the lower PCGS grade? Could it be possible that the NGC grade is correct and the PCGS grade is under-grading the coin? Or maybe an average of the two? Or maybe PCGS errs on the side of a lower grade and NGC errs on the side of a higher grade?
Or maybe they are both consistent to their own grading standards. Yours may fall in line with TPG-A while mine may fall in line with TPG-B.
You are making a blanket assumption that may not be correct and may be misleading in one direction. >>
I was going on TDNs opinion. He has a lot of experience in these series. --Jerry
I could fan that flame for a long time, but I have a lot of respect for you.
Sometimes I amaze myself at how much restraint I have when such a nice softball is tossed over the middle of the plate.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade.
I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS.
I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
But that goes against Ankur's own example. When PCGS graded his coin, he had to know that the coin was better than the grade and sell it higher (and the buyer had to know that, too), or else Ankur would have left money on the table given the PCGS grade. If everyone in a transaction puts blind faith in the grade, undergrading and overgrading differ only in which of the two parties are hurt or helped by the grade being wrong.
<< <i>If you buy coins you like, no matter what the the grade or the holder, the grade on the holder becomes less meaningful. Additionally, when I look to buy an NGC-graded coin, I give it my own grade and ask myself if I would be satisfied with the coin at that price, in a PCGS holder, at my grade minus 1or 2.
For example, late last year I purchased a coin in a NGC 53 holder. I graded the coin 50 but would have been satisfied owning the coin, at that price, in a PCGS 45 or 50 holder. In this case, I misjudged and the coin crossed at 53.
The other point is that I rarely would buy said coin in a grade where a step or two back would mean a huge financial hit (like a Dahlonega $5 in 63).
Finally, I have not found that the green sticker necessarily provides a safety net in the process of trying to cross a coin. >>
Hmmmm,Doesn't CAC gaurantee the grade? If not what's the point of CAC ing a coin?????
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<< <i>Here is a big problem I have.....the coins were cac'd and got a lower grade.....what's the use of cac then?? >>
Reread the thread, the coins were not cac'd before. They were cracked out years ago and sent to PCGS raw.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Here are some thoughts from my experiences, which I would say are more than some and less than others.
Grading is an art, not a science. Because of this, all grading services and all individual graders have a level of inconsistency in grading. How many of you have looked at a coin and graded it one way a certain day, then looked back at the coin on a later date and graded it differently.......I know I have. A lot of collectors and dealers alike have made (and lost) money due to the inconsistency of grading. It's not an indictment against the services, just reality.
For example, here are a few experiences from grading resubmissions in the past year:
- A coin broken out of a SEGS holder upgraded 2 grades at PCGS
- Several circulated coins broken out of NGC holders went from AG to G at and VG to F at PCGS
- A coin broken out of a new ANACS AU-58 holder graded MS-63 at PCGS
- An expensive $10 Indian in an NGC MS-66 holder did not CAC, then was crossed successfully to PCGS plastic and did CAC (sorry Ankur, even CAC is not 100%, although I respect their ability to judge freshness)
- A coin in a PCGS MS-65 holder did not CAC, then upgraded to MS-66 and CAC'd
- A couple coins in NGC holders did not cross at PCGS
- A very nice Morgan crossed from NGC to PCGS as a MS-66
- PCGS called a coin "questionable color" and NGC graded it.
- NGC called a coin cleaned and PCGS graded it.
- The same coin graded questionable color, MS-62, MS-63 & MS-64 at PCGS over a 6 month period.
My point is just to show that coins can be viewed differently on different days and that grading is NOT a science. That said PCGS and NGC do seem to have differing standards regarding how they grade certain series at present. For example, my experiences have been that NGC grades early gold on a looser curve than PCGS. NGC is more likey to bump a grade on a coin with nice color than PCGS, although both services do award originality on coins. In my experience, NGC is grading circulated silver tighther than PCGS in grades of XF and lower. PCGS will reward a blast white Morgan dollar with dripping luster, while NGC will reward a Morgan with color or original skin. There are (and likely always will be) coins in all holders that shouldn't be, and there are some expensive coins out there in holders that have problems (as TDN mentioned).
All of that said, the market certainly favors coins that are PCGS and CAC'd at present....that combination realizes the highest price in most cases. That said, if you watch auctions, an exceptional NGC coin will bring a lot of money of it is viewed as nice........as will an exceptional raw coin. While I think it is important to understand how the grading services differ in certain coin series and how the market view coins in different holders, to only look at coins in one holder or one holder/sticker combination will cause someone to miss a lot of opportunities.
Just my two cents and young experiences and not intended to offend anyone. I encourage all collectors to educate themselves and learn as much about grading as possible.
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Because most everyone here seems to think that what PCGS says the grade is on a coin is absolute gospel. Does PCGS get it right 100% of the time? Obvioulsy not and when you send in a CAC stickered NGC coin and it doesn't cross you really have to ask yourself why that is. Standards are one thing, but graders move around quite a bit from place to place. Ans so some here seem to believe that when a grader enters the door at PCGS he/she instantly has a 100% accuracy in grading and when they leave to go to NGC they suddenly get stupid by a factor of 50.
The reality is that both companies are guilty of overgrading and undergrading coins. I've seen overgraded NGC coins and PCGS coins. In fact most of the CBH's I've see in PCGS MS holders look like they've been run over by a train and thrown down six flights of stairs. So as a result I don't own any PCGS MS CBH's for that reason. If/when I find one I like then great. As many have said there it is about buying the coin. I am by no means the world's leading grader and I do put a strong emphasis on the TPG's grade, but I use it as a baseline and work from there. If it doesn't look NGC?PCGS 63 then I won't pay 63 money for it, it's that simple.
So let the war rage on. For me I own coins in both types of holders, though I do prefer the new NGC Edgeviews. I didn't like their older ones. Just keep in mind that TPG is still suggestive and seems to be a phenomenon closer to art than science.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade.
I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS.
I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
When PCGS graded his coin, he had to know that the coin was better than the grade and sell it higher (and the buyer had to know that, too), or else Ankur would have left money on the table given the PCGS grade. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from PCGS for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was better than PCGS thought that it was.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade.
I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS.
I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
When PCGS graded his coin, he had to know that the coin was better than the grade and sell it higher (and the buyer had to know that, too), or else Ankur would have left money on the table given the PCGS grade. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from PCGS for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was better than PCGS thought that it was. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from NGC for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was lower than NGC thought that it was.
Great post shortgapbob, both companies make mistakes. I will continue to buy ngc coins as well as pcgs ones.
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I am not completely dismissing coins in NGC holders. But I feel that I just need to be much more critical of them because I seem to find more inconsistencies, especially with Bust coinage. I currently have a 1795 Flowing hair dollar NGC XF45 CAC at PCGS at an attempt to cross it. PCGS would not cross it at the same grade, so I wrote in that I would accept one grade lower. Its purely for registry reasons. When I saw the coin and compared it to images in photograde, I felt it was a XF45. Will see what happens.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have looked at many NGC finest known or nearabouts bust dollars. Many I simply refused to buy as the problems were just too severe. So far I've kept one as is and downgraded two to what I felt was the proper grade.
I have looked at many more NGC finest known or nearabouts seated dollars. Many from private collections crossed at the same grade, several downgrade crossed. A few I wouldn't purchase even at a lower grade. A few downgrade crossed and were later upgraded at PCGS.
I have looked at a few NGC finest known or nearabouts trade dollars. Two crossed at the same grade and a few I refused to buy.
I will ALWAYS look at an NGC graded coin as many of the finest knowns are in NGC holders - they may just be optimistically graded by my standards. As long as the price is commensurate to the quality, I'm game. Plastic is transient, a coin's quality is forever... >>
What you're saying is that to buy NCG coins correctly, the buyer must have their own expertise. The mission statement of TPGs is to provide a 3rd party opinion on a coin to help people buy and sell without having to be and expert grader themselves. Seems NGC is not accomplishing this mission in your (expert) opinion. --Jerry >>
When PCGS graded his coin, he had to know that the coin was better than the grade and sell it higher (and the buyer had to know that, too), or else Ankur would have left money on the table given the PCGS grade. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from PCGS for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was better than PCGS thought that it was. >>
Unless one has a written explanation from NGC for why they gave the coin the grade that they did, it isn't necessarily true that either party knew that the coin was lower than NGC thought that it was. >>
That is true as well.
<< <i>
<< <i>+100 and counting.
Don't get me started on NGC copper.
Lance. >>
I can understand the resentment over your large cent ordeal. I agree that the mark was unacceptable at the grade. I hope you were able to recoup your money. >>
Ha. You remember that one. An NGC-graded petite, head large letters, AU58. With a big rim ding hidden under the prong. Discovered after cracking.
NGC wouldn't agree that the cent was overgraded. They offered to reholder it so I could sell it to the next sucker. I said no thanks. It's still a great coin I like very much. It's just not an AU58.
It's probably just me but I have never gotten satisfaction from NGC on overgraded copper. PCGS has come through on their guarantee more than a dozen times.
Lance.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
and look of the PCGS slab better, and I love the look of Gold and nicely toned coins in the old rattlers.
I have been extremely glad that NGC made the effort to grade Tokens and Medals.
<< <i>I actually went through and read nearly this entire thread. Ankur, I will give you credit for starting and interesting and informative thread, at the risk at taking some criticism.
Here are some thoughts from my experiences, which I would say are more than some and less than others.
Grading is an art, not a science. Because of this, all grading services and all individual graders have a level of inconsistency in grading. How many of you have looked at a coin and graded it one way a certain day, then looked back at the coin on a later date and graded it differently.......I know I have. A lot of collectors and dealers alike have made (and lost) money due to the inconsistency of grading. It's not an indictment against the services, just reality.
For example, here are a few experiences from grading resubmissions in the past year:
- A coin broken out of a SEGS holder upgraded 2 grades at PCGS
- Several circulated coins broken out of NGC holders went from AG to G at and VG to F at PCGS
- A coin broken out of a new ANACS AU-58 holder graded MS-63 at PCGS
- An expensive $10 Indian in an NGC MS-66 holder did not CAC, then was crossed successfully to PCGS plastic and did CAC (sorry Ankur, even CAC is not 100%, although I respect their ability to judge freshness)
- A coin in a PCGS MS-65 holder did not CAC, then upgraded to MS-66 and CAC'd
- A couple coins in NGC holders did not cross at PCGS
- A very nice Morgan crossed from NGC to PCGS as a MS-66
- PCGS called a coin "questionable color" and NGC graded it.
- NGC called a coin cleaned and PCGS graded it.
- The same coin graded questionable color, MS-62, MS-63 & MS-64 at PCGS over a 6 month period.
My point is just to show that coins can be viewed differently on different days and that grading is NOT a science. That said PCGS and NGC do seem to have differing standards regarding how they grade certain series at present. For example, my experiences have been that NGC grades early gold on a looser curve than PCGS. NGC is more likey to bump a grade on a coin with nice color than PCGS, although both services do award originality on coins. In my experience, NGC is grading circulated silver tighther than PCGS in grades of XF and lower. PCGS will reward a blast white Morgan dollar with dripping luster, while NGC will reward a Morgan with color or original skin. There are (and likely always will be) coins in all holders that shouldn't be, and there are some expensive coins out there in holders that have problems (as TDN mentioned).
All of that said, the market certainly favors coins that are PCGS and CAC'd at present....that combination realizes the highest price in most cases. That said, if you watch auctions, an exceptional NGC coin will bring a lot of money of it is viewed as nice........as will an exceptional raw coin. While I think it is important to understand how the grading services differ in certain coin series and how the market view coins in different holders, to only look at coins in one holder or one holder/sticker combination will cause someone to miss a lot of opportunities.
Just my two cents and young experiences and not intended to offend anyone. I encourage all collectors to educate themselves and learn as much about grading as possible. >>
I think this is well written and share these thoughts as well
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
What is really surprising is when a coin is clearly overgraded and then is CAC'd. A perfect example of this can be found on Heritage's sight right now. Check out the
1903 barber quarter XF40 CAC listing in the coming soon auctions at Heritage. I will say that PCGS has the highest level of consistency among third party graders
in my opinion.
Doug
Yep - I want that J211 NGC 67 back!
<< <i>This article is relevant to the topic of this thread:
Early Silver Dollars & Grading Issues >>
That was some good read. I particularly liked the following points made by Greg Reynolds;
Since 2009, there has been a trend of fewer buyers blindly accepting certified grades without thinking about the physical characteristics of the respective coins. More buyers now seek to learn about the details of the coins that they are considering buying.
In regards to expensive coins being offered at auction, each collector-bidder should consult an expert before committing to pay a large sum. Two coins of the same type and date that have received the same numerical grade from the same service may be very different
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I may get flamed for saying this, but I am done with NGC >>
I might get flamed for saying this, but I'm pretty much done with PCGS, and NGC will be getting most of my submission money in the near future.
Really.
I can explain, though. Note that this is not necessarily PCGS's fault. It's just what I'm collecting. My slab needs run primarily to ancient coins right now, and... well... PCGS doesn't go there. So there you have it. If they ever hired up the requisite brain trust necessary andstarted grading ancients, I'd probably come back aboard for at least a few submissions.
For the small scale of what I do, though, I've come around (again) to the idea that I'm better off just buying the slabworthy stuff I want already slabbed. Saves on some of the hassle, expense, and guesswork, though it also takes the "windfall" option off the table.
Ancient coins, it ain't so easy to do. Everything slabbed there tends to be grossly overpriced, and it's still a new game so the selection is small. You want slabbed ancients, you pretty much have to "make" 'em yourself with submissions, or pay out the wazoo for 'em.
I have a 5" stack of grading tags in my desk drawer going back to 1987. It's just too bad that PCGS / NGC don't have little books you can paste all your grading tags in like the old S&H green stamp books. I figure I have enough for at least a new toaster and a set of Libby glassware by now.
<< <i>You know when you just crack coins out of 3rd party service holders and put them into nice 3 X 3 screw together Capital holders, you can then just admire and be happy with your coins in a nice high quality holder and not concern yourself with arbitrary numbers, designations, crossovers, bodybags, little colored stickers, upgrades, downgrades, no grades, etc.
I have a 5" stack of grading tags in my desk drawer going back to 1987. It's just too bad that PCGS / NGC don't have little books you can paste all your grading tags in like the old S&H green stamp books. I figure I have enough for at least a new toaster and a set of Libby glassware by now. >>
They will pay a bounty for those tags! I think it's 50 cents a piece.
<< <i>
<< <i>You know when you just crack coins out of 3rd party service holders and put them into nice 3 X 3 screw together Capital holders, you can then just admire and be happy with your coins in a nice high quality holder and not concern yourself with arbitrary numbers, designations, crossovers, bodybags, little colored stickers, upgrades, downgrades, no grades, etc.
I have a 5" stack of grading tags in my desk drawer going back to 1987. It's just too bad that PCGS / NGC don't have little books you can paste all your grading tags in like the old S&H green stamp books. I figure I have enough for at least a new toaster and a set of Libby glassware by now. >>
They will pay a bounty for those tags! I think it's 50 cents a piece. >>
My cert stack is only 2" tall and half are NGC. I can stack gaskets more than a foot, though.
I keep the certs for the raw coins in my collection. Those from resubmissions go back to the TPG's.
Lance.
Are they over in the corner licking their chops?
<< <i>Ah...but just wait until the coin market weakens in the future and both of these companies decide/need to merge to survive (or grow revenue)...then suddenly all their slabs will instantly become valid at any and all grades!
And don't tell me that will never happen. >>
That will never happen.
While you may get flamed, I'd guess that the thread title makes it "unpoofable".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> PCGS doesn't go there. So there you have it. >>
oh no they didn't girlfriend, they went there!
Are they over in the corner licking their chops?>>
<< <i>What and who are the lowballers you speak of, and why would they be licking their chops to this thread?
The low ballers are the collectors that aspire to have complete set(S) in a series with coins bearing the lowest possible grades. Facetiously I remarked that they must be licking their chops. After all, if you have some NGC coins that you would prefer to be designated a point or three lower. Just send them to PCGS and chances are you will receive the grade(s) you want. Should work like magic!