I have been systematically moving my coins to PCGS holders. I am generally not as concerned about the grade, as much as I am the uniformity of the holders. More recently, I have become interested in the PCGS registry, and, of course, only PCGS coins are accepted. I will still purchase NGC coins, but only if I do not expect to take a bath when they cross over--meaning, if I lose a grade or two on the cross.
This past month, I moved 8 NGC-graded coins to PCGS holders. Of the 147 coins in the core collection, I am down to three in NGC holders.
These two are keepers, but I am not sure what I am going to do about the holders:
Hey Ankur, If you saw a nice CBH that you wanted for your set in a 2X2 flip with a grade of AU55 handwritten on it, would you buy it ? >>
If it was an expensive coin, I would be hesitant. I was told when I first started collecting, that if a really nice coin is raw, there is a reason for that. The only exception I can think of are early american coppers.
Roadrunner: Excellent post! >>
Than please take this as a friend talking to a friend. Take that ANA grading course.
These two are keepers, but I am not sure what I am going to do about the holders
I'd just crack them and take what you get if a cross doesn't fly. That 1907 looks like a 65 in any holder. If it's in a 66 holder that could be a problem but it's certainly clean enough in the photo to make 66. Of course one benefit with NGC prices falling off so much is that the risk to crack them is now much less than what is was in 2007.....a side benefit....lol.
The 54-S $20 Lib is dirty/grungy and solid enough that it will get the right grade and still be worth the same money...even if it dropped 5 pts. PCGS XF40/45? Hopefully not an NGC AU50.
<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders for cross-overs and non crossed. These were absolutely gorgeous. Since then, I won't even bother with NGC !!! >>
PCGS comes across as more strict if they do not accept the grades of NGC even if they should. NGC is their competitor, this is not really surprising, PCGS just wants to keep an edge in the market.
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<< I am generally not as concerned about the grade, as much as I am the uniformity of the holders.>>
I totally understand the uniformity of the holder thing. I suspect we would be in the minority. You through me a curveball on the registry thing though. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>These two are keepers, but I am not sure what I am going to do about the holders
I'd just crack them and take what you get if a cross doesn't fly. That 1907 looks like a 65 in any holder. If it's in a 66 holder that could be a problem. Of course one benefit with NGC prices falling off so much is that the risk to crack them is now much less than what is was in 2007.....a side benefit....lol.
The 54-S $20 Lib is dirty/grungy and solid enough that it will get the right grade and still be worth the same money...even if it dropped 5 pts. XF45?
Because to Err is Human. I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading. Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
<< <i>These two are keepers, but I am not sure what I am going to do about the holders
I'd just crack them and take what you get if a cross doesn't fly. That 1907 looks like a 65 in any holder. If it's in a 66 holder that could be a problem. Of course one benefit with NGC prices falling off so much is that the risk to crack them is now much less than what is was in 2007.....a side benefit....lol.
The 54-S $20 Lib is dirty/grungy and solid enough that it will get the right grade and still be worth the same money...even if it dropped 5 pts. XF45?
roadrunner >>
62
40 >>
I think Brian owes you a Platinum sticker for the Indian
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i><< I am generally not as concerned about the grade, as much as I am the uniformity of the holders.>>
I totally understand the uniformity of the holder thing. I suspect we would be in the minority. You through me a curveball on the registry thing though. MJ >>
I am not so concerned about the competition aspect of the Registry as I am in the organization, display, and record-keeping features. The Registry does provide a useful framework for structuring an otherwise unstructured collection.
RYK, don't be surprised if you get an upgrade on that MS62 1907. Maybe there's some rub hidden on the highpts but it all looks like minor strike weakness to me. Those fields don't look like a 62 at all....nothing less than 64 or 65 quality unless hidden hairlines abound. 62 Indians are usually beat, scuffy, and have many luster grazes. The 64's I see have 3 or 4 major cuts on them. Your 62 has a single tiny one in the reverse field, acceptable for a 65 imo.
Sheesh, I'd probably buy your 1907 NGC62 for the going rate on a generic PCGS 62....you'd not lose a $1 in the holder swap...lol. NGC gold is not treated as badly as the other metals are, especially in lower MS grades. That's a plus for you.
<< <i><< I am generally not as concerned about the grade, as much as I am the uniformity of the holders.>>
I totally understand the uniformity of the holder thing. I suspect we would be in the minority. You through me a curveball on the registry thing though. MJ >>
I am not so concerned about the competition aspect of the Registry as I am in the organization, display, and record-keeping features. The Registry does provide a useful framework for structuring an otherwise unstructured collection. >>
Touché'. I never even thought of it from that aspect. I thought that was what I Photo was for
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i><<RYK, don't be surprised if you get an upgrade on that MS62 1907. Maybe there's some rub hidden on the highpts but it all looks like minor strike weakness to me. Those fields don't look like a 62 at all....nothing less than 64 or 65 quality unless hiddern hairlines are there.>>
<<That Indian is a 62?!?!?? What are we missing...>> >>
I am not 100% sure. I think that there might be some slight rub and some wispy hairlines. However, the fields are as clean as any I have seen, the color is terrific, and the eye appeal is off the charts. It is probably a technical AU64, so the grade is a compromise. The 62 was green-stickered, so there is some additional support for the grade.
As an "AU64" it's the type of coin that if auctioned could easily bring strong premium money considering that most 62's look like heck, and most are rubbed anyways. In the old days it would have gone into a gem raw type set as MS65 and earned the selling dealer a nice profit....lol.
It all depends on when the coin was graded. I purchased this NGC coin 3 years ago at our annual coin show. (I thought it was undergraded.) Last year I cracked it out and sent it in as one of my "freebies" to PCGS.
<< <i>There is a reason that NGC coins generally bring less at auction. >>
Agreed, but it's more than just the actual quality of all the coins. Marketing, peer pressure and other issues are at play here. The 2 tpg's can't have the exact same standard or they wouldn't be able to compete as effectively. NGC chose a different standard. It's worked for them in generating the revenues they desired. But it hasn't worked out for guys like Ankur...or me. It's tough to fight city hall even in those instances where you are right. The market doesn't care if you're right. And there will always be instances of NGC coins upgrading at PCGS. But those will pale compared to the other way around. Funny how NGC for years got all those 65+ and 66+ PCGS coins into their holders. And dealers paid handsome fees to get 'er done as they doubled up on those upgrades. Now they are going back the other way to get those same coins back into the 65+ and 66+ holders as the prices for the NGC 66's and 67's have plummeted to low enough levels where liquidity trumps the higher holder grade. Who woulda thunk?
<< <i>It all depends on when the coin was graded. I purchased this NGC coin 3 years ago at our annual coin show. (I thought it was undergraded.) Last year I cracked it out and sent it in as one of my "freebies" to PCGS.
Can't say I'm done with NGC. But, I certainly prefer PCGS. They are consistently nicer.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
Yeah, but send that same 35-s back a few more times and I bet it ends up in a 58 holder. I've always said that you can't grade a coin on one grading event done in seconds. Once a coin has been seen 3X or more, then you'd have a better idea of what it really is....an average of all those trips. Unfortunately, the system is too expensive to get 10 grading events and average them. The "market" grade is always the last trip in as the earlier 9 events are discarded.
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45 1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45 1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53 1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50 Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I understand leaving a hopeful upgrade in its NGC holder if you stipulate not to be downgraded, but what genius, willing to accept a downgrade, would send the coin in still in its NGC holder? Regardless of whom you prefer, a little common sense goes a long ways when submitting coins for a grade(even if crossover is your game of choice). Then that is just me. The act of cracking a coin out to submit for a grade would be the only possible method for me to expect a reasonably fair grade regardless of who the original grader was, unless that Kool Aid is really good, and sugar free of course. Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Do a search for NGC on VAMWorld. That's all I'm sayin.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
I have upgraded many NGC coins to PCGS and taken many downgrades.
I don''t mind NGC coins with a CAC sticker but have not been able to cross many. I have crossed EVERY NGC Star coin I ever submitted.
I recently had a lot I did not bid on sent to me (that is another mess) A seated dime graded MS65+ by NGC, I would not suspect it would cross as a 64+ at PCGS.
I seldom check PM's but do check emails often jason@seated.org
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
<< <i>I think you should spend more times honing in your own grading abilities rather than having to depend on the right mix of plastic and stickers.
-Paul >>
I was going to state the same thing. Too many dealers only believe what the holder tells them to believe. Don't be one of those people.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
What about all the NGC coins that we expect to cross to PCGS at lower grades, but instead PCGS bags them for questionable color? And I am including some stickered by CAC. It seems to me that PCGS is too critical on toning of two hundred year old coins.
If the PCGS Registry is of concern, best buy only PCGS encapsulated coins. Crossovers are a pain in the posterior.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
<< <i>Again people, these are MY OPINIONS. You are entitled to your own. I dont have a problem with NGC coins, but it seems they are off a higher percentage of the time compared to PCGS. >>
Here's what I don't understand....you keep saying "they are off" when referring to NGC. "off" as compared to whose standards? Yours? PCGS's? If your standards, then why are you buying them and paying the price for that level? You are buying sight seen or with a return policy, right?
If "off" as compared to PCGS's standards, and you aren't using any skills to grade them yourself but are just going by what is on the PCGS plastic, then I would agree with you to only buy PCGS plastic at the grade you are wanting and the price the dealer is asking
<< <i>I think you should spend more times honing in your own grading abilities rather than having to depend on the right mix of plastic and stickers.
-Paul >>
That is one approach but not the only approach. Grading services, especially PCGS, provide a very useful purpose. Most collectors would be lost without them. --Jerry
<< <i>I understand leaving a hopeful upgrade in its NGC holder if you stipulate not to be downgraded, but what genius, willing to accept a downgrade, would send the coin in still in its NGC holder? Regardless of whom you prefer, a little common sense goes a long ways when submitting coins for a grade(even if crossover is your game of choice). Then that is just me. The act of cracking a coin out to submit for a grade would be the only possible method for me to expect a reasonably fair grade regardless of who the original grader was, unless that Kool Aid is really good, and sugar free of course. Jim >>
That "genius" might be someone who didn't want to risk a bodybag for some reason.....
This is widely known in certain series, certain grades. Because of that NGC holdered coins often trade at a lower price than PCGS coins. It is not an apples to apples comparison.
For some coins there is little to no price difference. On a very few series, NGC coins might even trade for a slight premium. For some coins in some grades, the gulf might be 20%, or 50% or even 2x or 3x the price. It is up to the buyer to research those differences before dropping big money. Everyone on the Internet has access to auction archives. To post the rant after years of trading as a part-time dealer in high priced coins is mostly a reflection on the op, not on NGC, or PCGS. I am tempted to use stronger language, but the bottom line is that the perceived problem is 90% on the op, maybe 10% on the grading companies.
<< <i>Here are a few examples of crosses I have had:
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45 1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45 1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53 1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50 Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded. >>
With all due respect, this doesn't mean anything with respect to the ability of either PCGS or NGC to grade. On any or all of the coins, the following could be true:
1- PCGS undergraded them 2- NGC overgraded them 3- PCGS undergraded them and NGC overgraded them 4- PCGS was right 5- NGC was right
An elementary understanding of statistics and the coin market can easily show how anyone can skew these results. If the coins were sold in the NGC holders at the price consistent with the same grade at PCGS, then you overpaid. If they were sold at the same price as the PCGS grade, then you paid the right price. That scale is simply set on who is the baseline. If we call NGC the baseline, then the reverse is true. There are plenty of reasons why you, or anyone else, could end up with numerous coins that would not cross from NGC to PCGS:
1- In this day and age where everyone wants the best score, you paid too much for the coin. You convinced yourself that you were getting a PCGS [grade X] in an NGC [grade X] holder. 2- When an NGC coin is set to PCGS as a crossover, PCGS wants to show that they're stricter, so they grade the coin lower. Human nature dictates the graders do this, even if they try not to. If you want to be better than your competitor, there's no easier way than, when given the opportunity to say flat out, "our competitor has lower standards," you take it. 3- You're unlucky
But I doubt it's just #3. My collection has a large number of NGC coins, because I've found coins I like in NGC holders and saw no reason to cross them. I spent a lot of time looking for very high quality examples, and reject the vast majority of what I see in any holder as not meeting my personal standard. And that's the key. No matter what the holder says, whatever company the holder may be from, I am the final decision maker on all purchases. I don't let a label dictate what I do or don't like. All that matters to me is the coin and the price. If the coin meets my standard and is the right price, then I buy it. That could mean I "overpay" for an NGC coin that is exceptional, but that's fine.
The problem with the Kool Aid in this thread is that the vast majority of responses indicate an issue with NGC coins only with respect to the grades said coins may receive at PCGS. That means people are buying plastic and not coins. For the amount of money people spend on these little metal discs, I continue to be amazed at how much responsibility is placed on the grading company and not the collector. The grading companies most certainly have their place, but if you only know what you want based on how someone else describes it, I dare say perhaps you don't really know.
<<For some coins there is little to no price difference>>
This holds true for the series and degrees of toning I collect. The premium is on the eye appeal and not so much the grade or holder.
Jeremy, well said. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
With all due respect I don't see why you would have ever bought that FE cent as a 58. I agree with you, NGC really tripped up on grading that coin but did you buy it sight unseen???
<< <i>Last I checked, NGC is the grading company of choice of the ANA. So if I take an ANA grading course, that will show me how to grade the NGC way? No thanks. >>
Huh?
NGC paid the MOST for the privilege of being the ANA Grading Company and don't believe anything else.
I have absolutely nothing against NGC. I simply prefer PCGS for the prices the coins achieve at resale.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
My experience with crossing over NGC to PCGS has been good. I have sent in two Classic Commems in the NGC holders and both crossed at the same grade. The only other experience I have had was to break two MS-64 Commems out of their slabs, one was PCGS and one NGC, and submit them to our host. Both came back as 65's. Now I did buy all four coins from a reputable dealer and was told they were good for the grade when I purchased them.
Ron
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
<< <i>Last I checked, NGC is the grading company of choice of the ANA. So if I take an ANA grading course, that will show me how to grade the NGC way? No thanks. >>
The ANA Summer Seminar is well represented by NGC, PCGS and ANACS graders usually! They have all taught it over the years and often teach it together!
Because to Err is Human. I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading. Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
<< <i>For less than the price of a mistake, you can take a grading class with the ANA. In two weeks at their Summer Seminar, you can take an intro grading class and, if proficient, take an advanced grading class. It will be the best money you can spend to ensure you don't buy improperly graded coins. Education trumps labels and stickers. >>
If you buy coins you like, no matter what the the grade or the holder, the grade on the holder becomes less meaningful. Additionally, when I look to buy an NGC-graded coin, I give it my own grade and ask myself if I would be satisfied with the coin at that price, in a PCGS holder, at my grade minus 1or 2.
For example, late last year I purchased a coin in a NGC 53 holder. I graded the coin 50 but would have been satisfied owning the coin, at that price, in a PCGS 45 or 50 holder. In this case, I misjudged and the coin crossed at 53.
The other point is that I rarely would buy said coin in a grade where a step or two back would mean a huge financial hit (like a Dahlonega $5 in 63).
Finally, I have not found that the green sticker necessarily provides a safety net in the process of trying to cross a coin.
Comments
This past month, I moved 8 NGC-graded coins to PCGS holders. Of the 147 coins in the core collection, I am down to three in NGC holders.
These two are keepers, but I am not sure what I am going to do about the holders:
<< <i>
<< <i>
Hey Ankur,
If you saw a nice CBH that you wanted for your set in a 2X2 flip with a grade of AU55 handwritten on it, would you buy it ? >>
If it was an expensive coin, I would be hesitant. I was told when I first started collecting, that if a really nice coin is raw, there is a reason for that. The only exception I can think of are early american coppers.
Roadrunner: Excellent post! >>
Than please take this as a friend talking to a friend.
Take that ANA grading course.
I'd just crack them and take what you get if a cross doesn't fly. That 1907 looks like a 65 in any holder. If it's in a 66 holder that could be a problem but it's certainly clean
enough in the photo to make 66. Of course one benefit with NGC prices falling off so much is that the risk to crack them is now much less than what is was in 2007.....a side
benefit....lol.
The 54-S $20 Lib is dirty/grungy and solid enough that it will get the right grade and still be worth the same money...even if it dropped 5 pts. PCGS XF40/45? Hopefully not an
NGC AU50.
roadrunner
<< <i>I sent (3) Saints in NGC MS-65 holders
for cross-overs and non crossed. These
were absolutely gorgeous. Since then,
I won't even bother with NGC !!! >>
PCGS comes across as more strict if they do not accept the grades of NGC even if they should. NGC is their competitor, this is not really surprising, PCGS just wants to keep an edge in the market.
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I totally understand the uniformity of the holder thing. I suspect we would be in the minority. You through me a curveball on the registry thing though. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>These two are keepers, but I am not sure what I am going to do about the holders
I'd just crack them and take what you get if a cross doesn't fly. That 1907 looks like a 65 in any holder. If it's in a 66 holder that could be a problem. Of course one benefit
with NGC prices falling off so much is that the risk to crack them is now much less than what is was in 2007.....a side benefit....lol.
The 54-S $20 Lib is dirty/grungy and solid enough that it will get the right grade and still be worth the same money...even if it dropped 5 pts. XF45?
roadrunner >>
62
40
I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading.
Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
<< <i>
<< <i>These two are keepers, but I am not sure what I am going to do about the holders
I'd just crack them and take what you get if a cross doesn't fly. That 1907 looks like a 65 in any holder. If it's in a 66 holder that could be a problem. Of course one benefit
with NGC prices falling off so much is that the risk to crack them is now much less than what is was in 2007.....a side benefit....lol.
The 54-S $20 Lib is dirty/grungy and solid enough that it will get the right grade and still be worth the same money...even if it dropped 5 pts. XF45?
roadrunner >>
62
40 >>
I think Brian owes you a Platinum sticker for the Indian
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i><< I am generally not as concerned about the grade, as much as I am the uniformity of the holders.>>
I totally understand the uniformity of the holder thing. I suspect we would be in the minority. You through me a curveball on the registry thing though. MJ >>
I am not so concerned about the competition aspect of the Registry as I am in the organization, display, and record-keeping features. The Registry does provide a useful framework for structuring an otherwise unstructured collection.
Those fields don't look like a 62 at all....nothing less than 64 or 65 quality unless hidden hairlines abound. 62 Indians are usually beat, scuffy, and have many luster
grazes. The 64's I see have 3 or 4 major cuts on them. Your 62 has a single tiny one in the reverse field, acceptable for a 65 imo.
Sheesh, I'd probably buy your 1907 NGC62 for the going rate on a generic PCGS 62....you'd not lose a $1 in the holder swap...lol. NGC gold is not treated as badly as the other
metals are, especially in lower MS grades. That's a plus for you.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Consder yourself flamed.
Ray
<< <i>
<< <i><< I am generally not as concerned about the grade, as much as I am the uniformity of the holders.>>
I totally understand the uniformity of the holder thing. I suspect we would be in the minority. You through me a curveball on the registry thing though. MJ >>
I am not so concerned about the competition aspect of the Registry as I am in the organization, display, and record-keeping features. The Registry does provide a useful framework for structuring an otherwise unstructured collection. >>
Touché'. I never even thought of it from that aspect. I thought that was what I Photo was for
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i><<RYK, don't be surprised if you get an upgrade on that MS62 1907. Maybe there's some rub hidden on the highpts but it all looks like minor strike weakness to me.
Those fields don't look like a 62 at all....nothing less than 64 or 65 quality unless hiddern hairlines are there.>>
<<That Indian is a 62?!?!?? What are we missing...>> >>
I am not 100% sure. I think that there might be some slight rub and some wispy hairlines. However, the fields are as clean as any I have seen, the color is terrific, and the eye appeal is off the charts. It is probably a technical AU64, so the grade is a compromise. The 62 was green-stickered, so there is some additional support for the grade.
The newer NGC holdered coins do tend to be graded on a lower grading scale.
Don't get me started on NGC copper.
Lance.
In the old days it would have gone into a gem raw type set as MS65 and earned the selling dealer a nice profit....lol.
<< <i>There is a reason that NGC coins generally bring less at auction. >>
Is it because the holders are fugly?
I purchased this NGC coin 3 years ago at our annual coin show.
(I thought it was undergraded.)
Last year I cracked it out and sent it in as one of my "freebies" to PCGS.
This:
turned into this:
<< <i>There is a reason that NGC coins generally bring less at auction. >>
Agreed, but it's more than just the actual quality of all the coins. Marketing, peer pressure and other issues are at play here. The 2 tpg's can't have the exact same
standard or they wouldn't be able to compete as effectively. NGC chose a different standard. It's worked for them in generating the revenues they desired. But it hasn't
worked out for guys like Ankur...or me. It's tough to fight city hall even in those instances where you are right. The market doesn't care if you're right. And there will
always be instances of NGC coins upgrading at PCGS. But those will pale compared to the other way around. Funny how NGC for years got all those 65+ and 66+ PCGS
coins into their holders. And dealers paid handsome fees to get 'er done as they doubled up on those upgrades. Now they are going back the other way to get those same
coins back into the 65+ and 66+ holders as the prices for the NGC 66's and 67's have plummeted to low enough levels where liquidity trumps the higher holder grade.
Who woulda thunk?
roadrunner
<< <i>It all depends on when the coin was graded.
I purchased this NGC coin 3 years ago at our annual coin show.
(I thought it was undergraded.)
Last year I cracked it out and sent it in as one of my "freebies" to PCGS.
This:
turned into this:
Wow. Even the pictures upgraded!
Lance.
event done in seconds. Once a coin has been seen 3X or more, then you'd have a better idea of what it really is....an average of all those trips.
Unfortunately, the system is too expensive to get 10 grading events and average them. The "market" grade is always the last trip in as the earlier 9
events are discarded.
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45
1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45
1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53
1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50
Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
send the coin in still in its NGC holder? Regardless of whom you prefer, a little common sense goes a long ways when submitting coins for a grade(even if crossover is
your game of choice).
Then that is just me. The act of cracking a coin out to submit for a grade would be the only possible method for me to expect a reasonably fair grade regardless of who
the original grader was, unless that Kool Aid is really good, and sugar free of course.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>...Don't get me started on NGC copper. >>
I hear you, and second the motion.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I have upgraded many NGC coins to PCGS and taken many downgrades.
I don''t mind NGC coins with a CAC sticker but have not been able to cross many. I have crossed EVERY NGC Star coin I ever submitted.
I recently had a lot I did not bid on sent to me (that is another mess) A seated dime graded MS65+ by NGC, I would not suspect it would cross as a 64+ at PCGS.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>I think you should spend more times honing in your own grading abilities rather than having to depend on the right mix of plastic and stickers.
-Paul >>
I was going to state the same thing. Too many dealers only believe what the holder tells them to believe. Don't be one of those people.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
If the PCGS Registry is of concern, best buy only PCGS encapsulated coins. Crossovers are a pain in the posterior.
<< <i>Again people, these are MY OPINIONS. You are entitled to your own. I dont have a problem with NGC coins, but it seems they are off a higher percentage of the time compared to PCGS. >>
Here's what I don't understand....you keep saying "they are off" when referring to NGC. "off" as compared to whose standards? Yours? PCGS's?
If your standards, then why are you buying them and paying the price for that level? You are buying sight seen or with a return policy, right?
If "off" as compared to PCGS's standards, and you aren't using any skills to grade them yourself but are just going by what is on the PCGS plastic, then I would agree with you to only buy PCGS plastic at the grade you are wanting and the price the dealer is asking
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I think you should spend more times honing in your own grading abilities rather than having to depend on the right mix of plastic and stickers.
-Paul >>
That is one approach but not the only approach. Grading services, especially PCGS, provide a very useful purpose. Most collectors would be lost without them. --Jerry
<< <i>I understand leaving a hopeful upgrade in its NGC holder if you stipulate not to be downgraded, but what genius, willing to accept a downgrade, would
send the coin in still in its NGC holder? Regardless of whom you prefer, a little common sense goes a long ways when submitting coins for a grade(even if crossover is
your game of choice).
Then that is just me. The act of cracking a coin out to submit for a grade would be the only possible method for me to expect a reasonably fair grade regardless of who
the original grader was, unless that Kool Aid is really good, and sugar free of course.
Jim >>
That "genius" might be someone who didn't want to risk a bodybag for some reason.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
For some coins there is little to no price difference. On a very few series, NGC coins might even trade for a slight premium. For some coins in some grades, the gulf might be 20%, or 50% or even 2x or 3x the price. It is up to the buyer to research those differences before dropping big money. Everyone on the Internet has access to auction archives. To post the rant after years of trading as a part-time dealer in high priced coins is mostly a reflection on the op, not on NGC, or PCGS. I am tempted to use stronger language, but the bottom line is that the perceived problem is 90% on the op, maybe 10% on the grading companies.
<< <i>Here are a few examples of crosses I have had:
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45
1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45
1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53
1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50
Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded. >>
With all due respect, this doesn't mean anything with respect to the ability of either PCGS or NGC to grade. On any or all of the coins, the following could be true:
1- PCGS undergraded them
2- NGC overgraded them
3- PCGS undergraded them and NGC overgraded them
4- PCGS was right
5- NGC was right
An elementary understanding of statistics and the coin market can easily show how anyone can skew these results. If the coins were sold in the NGC holders at the price consistent with the same grade at PCGS, then you overpaid. If they were sold at the same price as the PCGS grade, then you paid the right price. That scale is simply set on who is the baseline. If we call NGC the baseline, then the reverse is true. There are plenty of reasons why you, or anyone else, could end up with numerous coins that would not cross from NGC to PCGS:
1- In this day and age where everyone wants the best score, you paid too much for the coin. You convinced yourself that you were getting a PCGS [grade X] in an NGC [grade X] holder.
2- When an NGC coin is set to PCGS as a crossover, PCGS wants to show that they're stricter, so they grade the coin lower. Human nature dictates the graders do this, even if they try not to. If you want to be better than your competitor, there's no easier way than, when given the opportunity to say flat out, "our competitor has lower standards," you take it.
3- You're unlucky
But I doubt it's just #3. My collection has a large number of NGC coins, because I've found coins I like in NGC holders and saw no reason to cross them. I spent a lot of time looking for very high quality examples, and reject the vast majority of what I see in any holder as not meeting my personal standard. And that's the key. No matter what the holder says, whatever company the holder may be from, I am the final decision maker on all purchases. I don't let a label dictate what I do or don't like. All that matters to me is the coin and the price. If the coin meets my standard and is the right price, then I buy it. That could mean I "overpay" for an NGC coin that is exceptional, but that's fine.
The problem with the Kool Aid in this thread is that the vast majority of responses indicate an issue with NGC coins only with respect to the grades said coins may receive at PCGS. That means people are buying plastic and not coins. For the amount of money people spend on these little metal discs, I continue to be amazed at how much responsibility is placed on the grading company and not the collector. The grading companies most certainly have their place, but if you only know what you want based on how someone else describes it, I dare say perhaps you don't really know.
This holds true for the series and degrees of toning I collect. The premium is on the eye appeal and not so much the grade or holder.
Jeremy, well said. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>Last I checked, NGC is the grading company of choice of the ANA. So if I take an ANA grading course, that will show me how to grade the NGC way? No thanks. >>
Huh?
NGC paid the MOST for the privilege of being the ANA Grading Company and don't believe anything else.
I have absolutely nothing against NGC. I simply prefer PCGS for the prices the coins achieve at resale.
The name is LEE!
Ron
<< <i>
<< <i>Last I checked, NGC is the grading company of choice of the ANA. So if I take an ANA grading course, that will show me how to grade the NGC way? No thanks. >>
The ANA Summer Seminar is well represented by NGC, PCGS and ANACS graders usually! They have all taught it over the years and often teach it together!
I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading.
Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
<< <i>For less than the price of a mistake, you can take a grading class with the ANA. In two weeks at their Summer Seminar, you can take an intro grading class and, if proficient, take an advanced grading class. It will be the best money you can spend to ensure you don't buy improperly graded coins. Education trumps labels and stickers. >>
Ive been telling him that since last year
It is truly amazing the concern for plastic instead of buying the right coin regardless of plastic
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
For example, late last year I purchased a coin in a NGC 53 holder. I graded the coin 50 but would have been satisfied owning the coin, at that price, in a PCGS 45 or 50 holder. In this case, I misjudged and the coin crossed at 53.
The other point is that I rarely would buy said coin in a grade where a step or two back would mean a huge financial hit (like a Dahlonega $5 in 63).
Finally, I have not found that the green sticker necessarily provides a safety net in the process of trying to cross a coin.