FS S 70, 5383 of 10467 = 51.42% FS S 69, 4811 of 10467 = 45.96%
FS PR 70, 5550 of 10473 = 52.99% FS PR 69, 4641 of 10473 = 44.31%
NFS S 70, 103 of 391 = 26.34% NFS S 69, 272 of 391 = 69.57%
NFS PR 70, 127 of 374 = 33.96% NFS PR 69, 220 of 374 = 58.82%
Last week the percentages looked like this below, the NFS PR 70 results from 1/8/12 gained the most when compared to last week. Other than that, I don't see significant change in the comparison of result percentages from this week to last week.
<<For the 1/1/12, FS vs NFS results posted -
FS S 70 = 5167 of 9847 = 52.47% FS S 69 = 4462 0f 9847 = 45.31%
FS RP 70 = 5288 of 9854 = 53.66% FS RP 69 = 4319 of 9854 = 43.83%
NFS S 70 = 82 of 323 = 25.39% NFS S 69 = 227 0f 323 = 70.28%
NFS RP 70 = 94 of 306 = 30.72% NFS RP 69 = 190 of 306 = 62.09% >> >>
Concrete evidence as to why "buy the coin, not the slab" is rock solid advice.
A grade summary table shows appx 25,000 25th sets graded ATS. Add in the 10,000 sets by PCGS and it appears to be apprx 35% of the total mintage for these sets has been graded.
<< <i>A grade summary table shows appx 25,000 25th sets graded ATS. Add in the 10,000 sets by PCGS and it appears to be apprx 35% of the total mintage for these sets has been graded.
<< <i>It would appear that the folks ATS are ..MORE.. prone to the 70s with.. their.. Early Release program.... >>
Speaking of ATS + Early Release -
Monaco Gold Coins is running a new to me investment coin ad on Fox Business Channel that I noticed for the first time tonight. After the vault doors open, A $PRE-33 DOUBLE EAGLE IN AN NGC EARLY RELEASE SLAB EMERGES AND THE VIEWER IS TOLD THAT THESE COINS ARE GRADED BY NGC AND ARE "EARLY RELEASE".
I s*** you not.
Its round 10 of a 15 round Early Release vs. First Strike championship fight. ATS has delivered a strong uppercut in the battle with a pre 33 DE gold being designated early release, let's see if the other TPG stays on its feet, recovers in the corner and counters in round 11.
NJ Coin, I hope you're still holding out...those prices on eBay are climbing, now over $4k for an unopened box of 5 sets, FS eligible. Also, the trend continues higher on the PCGS complete 70 sets. This ought to make you feel good, if you held. The bottom appears to have been established in the latter week of Dec 2011, with the flippers moving out of the picture. There is no question demand is beginning to exerting pressure on supply and will continue to tighten as supply disappears into the collector hands. IMO, this silver eagle set will become extremely valuable with time, mainly because of the very low pop. This is only the beginning.
Wondercoin, your current eBay auctions of the 25th Anniversary ASE set, PCGS 70, with the Mercanti + Flag FS label is a first sight for me. Is it new or am I in a small world? Any grade premium on this particular label? I didn't know this existed with both Mercanti and the Flag together and really like it. I have to wonder what the pop on this label is?
<< <i>Wondercoin, your current eBay auctions of the 25th Anniversary ASE set, PCGS 70, with the Mercanti + Flag FS label is a first sight for me. Is it new or am I in a small world? Any grade premium on this particular label? I didn't know this existed with both Mercanti and the Flag together and really like it. I have to wonder what the pop on this label is? >>
How do you get that label? Do you have to request it? Or is it dependent on when PCGS gets the coins? They currently have my sets.... will I get the label?
Donato: This label was discussed extensively on the other 25th Anniv. thread over the past week. The long and the short of it is that I believe this label is available to anyone (collector or dealer alike) agreeing to submit a substantial amount of sealed 25th anniv. sets to PCGS bulk. In the other thread, I gave the phone number to the person at PCGS in charge of discussing the precise bulk requirements for this label and every other label produced at PCGS.
My "competition" has just come out with the Mercanti Flag set on ebay in 5 separate auctions starting at 99 cents (thank you OPA for alerting me to that). I wish them well and I hope their 5 coins sell for WAY more than my asking price on the 5 pc. set! Beats the alternative... right!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>NJ Coin, I hope you're still holding out...those prices on eBay are climbing, now over $4k for an unopened box of 5 sets, FS eligible. Also, the trend continues higher on the PCGS complete 70 sets. This ought to make you feel good, if you held. The bottom appears to have been established in the latter week of Dec 2011, with the flippers moving out of the picture. There is no question demand is beginning to exerting pressure on supply and will continue to tighten as supply disappears into the collector hands. IMO, this silver eagle set will become extremely valuable with time, mainly because of the very low pop. This is only the beginning. >>
Donato -- Thank you for thinking of me. Yes, I held. I was never looking to sell at the lows, or even now. I totally agree with you, and always thought the opened sets will eventually be worth over $1,000, which is why I politely refused previous generous offers privately made to me by a few dealers to take the sealed boxes off my hands for slightly above the going rate. I also (foolishly, as it turned out!) turned down $4,200 for my box of 5 at the November Baltimore show.
All of my agonizing was (and is) over where to have them graded, since I want to enjoy them rather than just sitting on sealed boxes for years on end. I have given up trying to understand the inexplicable with respect to the weekly PCGS pop reports, and will ultimately either just hand them over to PCGS at the Baltimore show in March, or send them ATS if the PCGS grading results keep trending down and it looks like I won't be able to at least get my grading money back with PCGS.
Standout pop? 2011-S Unc Non First Strike.....almost three to one 69 to 70!! edited to add: Also the First Strike 2011-S is closing in on one to one 69 to 70.
First Strike®.............. as of 01/15/12
Non First Strike............................ as of 01/15/12
Larry, not necessarily IMO. You’re opinion seems based on the grading standards changing with respect to time (current year). This is certainly a possibility. However, I look at it this way. If I were a grader grading the silver eagle for years, there would be a tendency to become quite familiar with the coin, lending to extensive experience and knowledge of the coin. Perhaps the pop results are reflective as to when the coins were stamped? This bears the question whether the early Nov due date boxes were actually the first coins stamped, considering there were only 100,000 each? How many sets of dies were there for each coin?
Just being the devil’s advocate, with an open mind. I believe again, there are too many unknowns, one way or another, to consider a reasonable conclusion for the changes. However, if your opinion reflects a trend from the graders year after year (FS to non-FS), it does provide supporting indication you are correct.
Donato.. ..While keeping an open mind about these first strike or first release issues One has to believe that they are actually First Minted coins as the original term means in earnest.The coins in question do not reflect the original meaning..only the time when the coins are released from the mint. ..and secondly if the graders are becoming more famailiar with these coins and therefore if the grades seem to show this then the first batches of coins might be ..inacurate...??!?!? I for one cannot be an advocate of the First Strike term on these slabs because it does not mean from which it was originally intended. .....JMHO....
And to beat this percentage result thing to death, when you look at the FS vs. NFS S MS67 grades you have =
FS 67 S, 25 of 10997 = 0.227% NFS 67 S, 5 of 482 = 1.04%
The result above is significant and tells the story IMHO.
I said it before, I'll say it again. Two different entities are grading FS and NFS and have different judgements of subjective criteria for coins that come from the same population. Don't know what else it could be.
edit to add - If you applied the NFS rate of 1.04% 67s to the FS total of 10997 graded results, you should have 114 coins graded 67, instead of the 25 recorded in the latest 1/15/12 update.
I agree the FS designation is only relevant as to when the coins were released and graded. With respect to the graders becoming more familiar with the coins and grading the first batches, a logical assumption can be made the grader knows the bulk of these early submissions are from authorized dealers, leading to a tendency of more favorable grades. With due consideration, this business is no differ than any other, your best customers get preferential treatment.
I also agree First Strike designation is not a true reflection of its meaning, whereas Early Release is more to the true meaning. Neither being reflective on the actual coin value itself. However, demand indicates a premium is willing to be paid based on the pop of the label.
I personally find it difficult to ignore these labels when the market takes them into consideration. However, I do agree with what was said earlier on the board regarding the potential label value damage with too many labels, destroying the very intention of the graders to add value to the label.
How about the new 2nd Generation Mercanti labels? The price seems to be climbing up every time i check it . It used to be $1699 per set and now its up to $1800+ Wish i had a set.
<< <i>I personally find it difficult to ignore these labels when the market takes them into consideration. However, I do agree with what was said earlier on the board regarding the potential label value damage with too many labels, destroying the very intention of the graders to add value to the label. >>
Perhaps that's what is destroying many of the prices of the moderns these days.Who wants coins graded only 68 or 69.These FS coins are like drugs to feed a frenzy of speculators and then after a while the price plummets due to reality...
CC2010, I look for the initial offering prices to be high, as usual, reflective of a new label release. However, it is most likely the price will settle in the tight range with the other sets, having some minor price variation. WC has been bumping the set price upwards but eBay doesn't reflect any sales. I have been unsuccessful in finding the set elsewhere. The individual coin auctions are increasing in number, we'll see how these prices compare to its counterparts. As usual, the sum of the unit prices should exceed the set price offering.
There was an auction a few days back for a NFS 70 set that yielded its seller $1277. It's hard to get scientific at this point with so few NFS sets selling (anomaly?). Still, that's mighty low compared to what the FS sets are selling for. Yet, one has to wonder how the coins look compared to their FS equivalents with it being much more difficult to get 70 NFS coins according to the pops.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
<< <i>CC2010, I look for the initial offering prices to be high, as usual, reflective of a new label release. However, it is most likely the price will settle in the tight range with the other sets, having some minor price variation. WC has been bumping the set price upwards but eBay doesn't reflect any sales. I have been unsuccessful in finding the set elsewhere. The individual coin auctions are increasing in number, we'll see how these prices compare to its counterparts. As usual, the sum of the unit prices should exceed the set price offering. >>
Just a guess.......but I would think WC is selling off his listing and doing deals off-site on his sets..........Well that's what I would be doing anyway..........so actual sales numbers would have to come from him
There is about -8- hours to go on another board member's offering of -5- individual Mercanti Flag 70 coins on ebay. It should be interesting to see where they close as a whole. Right now, the 5 coins are sitting at $1,416 combined.
I can say that the label has been well received by the marketplace to this point. I have raised my price on the product a number of times in the past week and have sold sets at all of the different pricing levels. But, in all fairness, that price hike is also, to a great extent, tied to my replacement cost on the sets as well, which keeps rising and rising and rising.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Just my luck. It looks like it's getting harder to get a FS 70 grade now. Does that typically happen? Are early submissions rewarded? Are they getting more strict at grading? Unintentional of course, i.e., Is it plausible that early submissions get an unintentional bonus due to a flood of coins being submitted?
Comments
<< <i>For 1/8/12 FS vs. NFS results -
FS S 70, 5383 of 10467 = 51.42%
FS S 69, 4811 of 10467 = 45.96%
FS PR 70, 5550 of 10473 = 52.99%
FS PR 69, 4641 of 10473 = 44.31%
NFS S 70, 103 of 391 = 26.34%
NFS S 69, 272 of 391 = 69.57%
NFS PR 70, 127 of 374 = 33.96%
NFS PR 69, 220 of 374 = 58.82%
Last week the percentages looked like this below, the NFS PR 70 results from 1/8/12 gained the most when compared to last week. Other than that, I don't see significant change in the comparison of result percentages from this week to last week.
<<For the 1/1/12, FS vs NFS results posted -
FS S 70 = 5167 of 9847 = 52.47%
FS S 69 = 4462 0f 9847 = 45.31%
FS RP 70 = 5288 of 9854 = 53.66%
FS RP 69 = 4319 of 9854 = 43.83%
NFS S 70 = 82 of 323 = 25.39%
NFS S 69 = 227 0f 323 = 70.28%
NFS RP 70 = 94 of 306 = 30.72%
NFS RP 69 = 190 of 306 = 62.09% >> >>
Concrete evidence as to why "buy the coin, not the slab" is rock solid advice.
.....for those that missed the new Pops on Sunday!
Waiting on 08HALA20's spreadsheet!
Here they are again!!!!
First Strike®..............
As of 01/08/12
Non First Strike............................
As of 01/08/12
70's % dropping.
Only 550 sets graded.
On a different note I started using Google Chrome and it is wicked fast and I love it.
Joe
table
<< <i>A grade summary table shows appx 25,000 25th sets graded ATS. Add in the 10,000 sets by PCGS and it appears to be apprx 35% of the total mintage for these sets has been graded.
table >>
Anyone have a similar table with percentages for ATS?
Thanks for the graphs and tables!
<< <i>It would appear that the folks ATS are ..MORE.. prone to the 70s with.. their.. Early Release program.... >>
Speaking of ATS + Early Release -
Monaco Gold Coins is running a new to me investment coin ad on Fox Business Channel that I noticed for the first time tonight. After the vault doors open, A $PRE-33 DOUBLE EAGLE IN AN NGC EARLY RELEASE SLAB EMERGES AND THE VIEWER IS TOLD THAT THESE COINS ARE GRADED BY NGC AND ARE "EARLY RELEASE".
I s*** you not.
Its round 10 of a 15 round Early Release vs. First Strike championship fight. ATS has delivered a strong uppercut in the battle with a pre 33 DE gold being designated early release, let's see if the other TPG stays on its feet, recovers in the corner and counters in round 11.
This fight ain't over, not by a longshot.
<< <i>Wondercoin, your current eBay auctions of the 25th Anniversary ASE set, PCGS 70, with the Mercanti + Flag FS label is a first sight for me. Is it new or am I in a small world? Any grade premium on this particular label? I didn't know this existed with both Mercanti and the Flag together and really like it. I have to wonder what the pop on this label is? >>
How do you get that label? Do you have to request it? Or is it dependent on when PCGS gets the coins? They currently have my sets.... will I get the label?
Mercanti Flag Label
There is also thread from Wondercoin on BST advertising them.... Mercanti Flag BST
To save you some searching the minimum for this label was 250 sets (not 250 coins)
My "competition" has just come out with the Mercanti Flag set on ebay in 5 separate auctions starting at 99 cents (thank you OPA for alerting me to that). I wish them well and I hope their 5 coins sell for WAY more than my asking price on the 5 pc. set! Beats the alternative... right!
Wondercoin
<< <i>This is the thread that beat it to death Mercanti Flag
There is also thread from Wondercoin on BST advertising them.... Mercanti Flag BST
To save you some searching the minimum for this label was 250 sets (not 250 coins) >>
Ouch.
<< <i>250 set minimum...Hogwash! It's getting to be a label collecting game. Thanks for the links and saving the research time. >>
Reminds me of when I collected sports cards in the 90s. Companies went crazy with inserts. Became so expensive and unfun. Stop dangling the carrot!
<< <i>
<< <i>250 set minimum...Hogwash! It's getting to be a label collecting game. Thanks for the links and saving the research time. >>
Reminds me of when I collected sports cards in the 90s. Companies went crazy with inserts. Became so expensive and unfun. Stop dangling the carrot!
I am just going to buy one coin, crack it out and keep submitting until i collect all the labels , muuuuuwaaahhhaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>250 set minimum...Hogwash! It's getting to be a label collecting game. Thanks for the links and saving the research time. >>
Reminds me of when I collected sports cards in the 90s. Companies went crazy with inserts. Became so expensive and unfun. Stop dangling the carrot!
I am just going to buy one coin, crack it out and keep submitting until i collect all the labels , muuuuuwaaahhhaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAHAHA!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>250 set minimum...Hogwash! It's getting to be a label collecting game. Thanks for the links and saving the research time. >>
Reminds me of when I collected sports cards in the 90s. Companies went crazy with inserts. Became so expensive and unfun. Stop dangling the carrot!
I am just going to buy one coin, crack it out and keep submitting until i collect all the labels , muuuuuwaaahhhaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You won't get them all with one coin.
<< <i>NJ Coin, I hope you're still holding out...those prices on eBay are climbing, now over $4k for an unopened box of 5 sets, FS eligible. Also, the trend continues higher on the PCGS complete 70 sets. This ought to make you feel good, if you held. The bottom appears to have been established in the latter week of Dec 2011, with the flippers moving out of the picture. There is no question demand is beginning to exerting pressure on supply and will continue to tighten as supply disappears into the collector hands. IMO, this silver eagle set will become extremely valuable with time, mainly because of the very low pop. This is only the beginning. >>
Donato -- Thank you for thinking of me.
All of my agonizing was (and is) over where to have them graded, since I want to enjoy them rather than just sitting on sealed boxes for years on end. I have given up trying to understand the inexplicable with respect to the weekly PCGS pop reports, and will ultimately either just hand them over to PCGS at the Baltimore show in March, or send them ATS if the PCGS grading results keep trending down and it looks like I won't be able to at least get my grading money back with PCGS.
edited to add: Also the First Strike 2011-S is closing in on one to one 69 to 70.
First Strike®..............
as of 01/15/12
Non First Strike............................
as of 01/15/12
70's back up to about 50% this past week with just under 500 sets graded.
There was only about 30 extra singles from the "S" and "RP"
Joe
Just being the devil’s advocate, with an open mind. I believe again, there are too many unknowns, one way or another, to consider a reasonable conclusion for the changes. However, if your opinion reflects a trend from the graders year after year (FS to non-FS), it does provide supporting indication you are correct.
<< <i>Standout pop? 2011-S Unc Non First Strike.....almost three to one 69 to 70!! >>
Yeah, a change of about 1.25% for the worse. Didn't the NFS graders get the memo?
1/15/12 -
NFS S 70, 120 of 482 = 24.90%
NFS S 69, 341 of 482 = 70.75%
1/8/12 -
NFS S 70, 103 of 391 = 26.34%
NFS S 69, 272 of 391 = 69.57%
<< <i>edited to add: Also the First Strike 2011-S is closing in on one to one 69 to 70. >>
I don't think there is a significant change in the results this week vs. last week.
1/15/12 -
FS S 70, 5671 of 10997 = 51.57%
FS S 69, 5055 of 10997 = 45.97%
1/8/12 -
FS S 70, 5383 of 10467 = 51.42%
FS S 69, 4811 of 10467 = 45.96%
<< <i>1/15/12 -
NFS S 70, 120 of 482 = 24.90%
NFS S 69, 341 of 482 = 70.75%
1/8/12 -
NFS S 70, 103 of 391 = 26.34%
NFS S 69, 272 of 391 = 69.57%
>>
When you compare the NFS S results from this week to last week, it appears that 91 S coins received either 70, 69, 68 or 67 grades.
482 - 391 = 91 total, 120 - 103 = 17 coins graded 70, 341 - 272 = 69 coins graded 69.
Those percentages =
17 of 91 = 18.68%
69 of 91 = 75.82%
Tough week for NFS S coins in the grading room. Quite remarkable.
..While keeping an open mind about these first strike or first release issues One has to believe that they are actually First Minted coins as the original term means in earnest.The coins in question do not reflect the original meaning..only the time when the coins are released from the mint.
..and secondly if the graders are becoming more famailiar with these coins and therefore if the grades seem to show this then the first batches of coins might be ..inacurate...??!?!?
I for one cannot be an advocate of the First Strike term on these slabs because it does not mean from which it was originally intended.
.....JMHO....
FS 67 S, 25 of 10997 = 0.227%
NFS 67 S, 5 of 482 = 1.04%
The result above is significant and tells the story IMHO.
I said it before, I'll say it again. Two different entities are grading FS and NFS and have different judgements of subjective criteria for coins that come from the same population. Don't know what else it could be.
edit to add - If you applied the NFS rate of 1.04% 67s to the FS total of 10997 graded results, you should have 114 coins graded 67, instead of the 25 recorded in the latest 1/15/12 update.
I agree the FS designation is only relevant as to when the coins were released and graded. With respect to the graders becoming more familiar with the coins and grading the first batches, a logical assumption can be made the grader knows the bulk of these early submissions are from authorized dealers, leading to a tendency of more favorable grades. With due consideration, this business is no differ than any other, your best customers get preferential treatment.
I also agree First Strike designation is not a true reflection of its meaning, whereas Early Release is more to the true meaning. Neither being reflective on the actual coin value itself. However, demand indicates a premium is willing to be paid based on the pop of the label.
I personally find it difficult to ignore these labels when the market takes them into consideration. However, I do agree with what was said earlier on the board regarding the potential label value damage with too many labels, destroying the very intention of the graders to add value to the label.
or, is it a discrepancy between bulk and non-bulk? We have no real way of knowing the pops for each label.
Either way, interesting.
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
<< <i>I personally find it difficult to ignore these labels when the market takes them into consideration. However, I do agree with what was said earlier on the board regarding the potential label value damage with too many labels, destroying the very intention of the graders to add value to the label. >>
Perhaps that's what is destroying many of the prices of the moderns these days.Who wants coins graded only 68 or 69.These FS coins are like drugs to feed a frenzy of speculators and then after a while the price plummets due to reality...
<< <i>
<< <i>Standout pop? 2011-S Unc Non First Strike.....almost three to one 69 to 70!! >>
Yeah, a change of about 1.25% for the worse. Didn't the NFS graders get the memo?
1/15/12 -
NFS S 70, 120 of 482 = 24.90%
NFS S 69, 341 of 482 = 70.75%
1/8/12 -
NFS S 70, 103 of 391 = 26.34%
NFS S 69, 272 of 391 = 69.57%
<< <i>edited to add: Also the First Strike 2011-S is closing in on one to one 69 to 70. >>
I don't think there is a significant change in the results this week vs. last week.
1/15/12 -
FS S 70, 5671 of 10997 = 51.57%
FS S 69, 5055 of 10997 = 45.97%
1/8/12 -
FS S 70, 5383 of 10467 = 51.42%
FS S 69, 4811 of 10467 = 45.96% >>
Good analysis epcjimi1...thanks for giving some focus to the pops.
Thanks 08HALA20 for your spreadsheet update.
<< <i>CC2010, I look for the initial offering prices to be high, as usual, reflective of a new label release. However, it is most likely the price will settle in the tight range with the other sets, having some minor price variation. WC has been bumping the set price upwards but eBay doesn't reflect any sales. I have been unsuccessful in finding the set elsewhere. The individual coin auctions are increasing in number, we'll see how these prices compare to its counterparts. As usual, the sum of the unit prices should exceed the set price offering. >>
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
I can say that the label has been well received by the marketplace to this point. I have raised my price on the product a number of times in the past week and have sold sets at all of the different pricing levels. But, in all fairness, that price hike is also, to a great extent, tied to my replacement cost on the sets as well, which keeps rising and rising and rising.
Wondercoin
bullion = 281.99
W PRDCAM = 295.99
S = 680.00
W = 160.50
RP = 645.00
thanks for the math epcjimi1
Wondercoin
<< <i>$2062.38 for the Mercanti Flag set:
bullion = 281.99
W PRDCAM = 295.99
S = 680.00
W = 160.50
RP = 645.00
thanks for the math epcjimi1
Wondercoin >>
Over 2 grand, hot digity dog
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>
<< <i>$2062.38 for the Mercanti Flag set:
bullion = 281.99
W PRDCAM = 295.99
S = 680.00
W = 160.50
RP = 645.00
thanks for the math epcjimi1
Wondercoin >>
Over 2 grand, hot digity dog >>
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
Meanwhile, I personally continue to sell complete sets.
Wondercoin
This is a good thing, WC!!!!