<< <i>And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
AMEN! If the 'sheet' is good to buy then why is not good to sell from? >>
Because it is not a retail price list. These are for wholesale dealer-to-dealer transactions. >>
And, that makes it even funnier! I always laugh watching dealers do the "dealer to dealer" transactions and working to get a lower price than retail, especially early in a show. If a dealer is happy getting $x amount from a dealer, then why do they whine if that is the price a collector wants to pay?
I've been in sales before and didn't like a lot of the deceit. Now, I just look at things face value, ask the best price....if it isn't what I would pay, then I move on. If someone wants to sell something to a dealer...lower than what I would pay and have been "refused", then they get the lower price and less profit. If my money is good with them, then good. >>
<< <i>Thank you for the information regarding the type coin section of the Greysheet. I have to admit that I have been using the Greysheet for years and have never even noticed what was in this section. Your 1795 half dollar looks like a very attractive coin with relatively good surfaces and one that might find itself into a VG10 holder someday. In my opinion, given the current market you did not overpay for that piece.
If that half-dime is graded MS62 then it is either undergraded, again in my opinion, or there must be hidden wear or hairlines. It is simply too nice for the typical MS62. >>
Tom, its the only section I even care about as a purely type collector. Occasionally, i'll run into a coin I want and the price difference between sheet and dealer tag is huge. I then quickly realize its either a semi key date, or scarce variety. Getting back to the discussion though, bochiman made a good point. If a dealer is willing to sell X coin to another dealer at sheet ask, then why wouldnt he just sell it to me for 25% over sheet ask instead?
<< <i> Frank...I just lost all respect for you, and your credibility is now gone as well.....How can you say ANYTHING about the eye appeal of these coins without even knowing what the slabbed grade says, and subsequently what I paid? As an example....if all of those coins were slabbed as 58's, how do you like them now? I would expect more from an educated person than to say a coin has below average eye appeal without even knowing the grade. >>
You asked for opinions, I gave you mine based on 42 years in the coin business.
Eye appeal has NOTHING to do with either the number on the slab or the price paid. I guess you will have to learn that expensive lesson yourself.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i> Frank...I just lost all respect for you, and your credibility is now gone as well.....How can you say ANYTHING about the eye appeal of these coins without even knowing what the slabbed grade says, and subsequently what I paid? As an example....if all of those coins were slabbed as 58's, how do you like them now? I would expect more from an educated person than to say a coin has below average eye appeal without even knowing the grade. >>
You asked for opinions, I gave you mine based on 42 years in the coin business.
Eye appeal has NOTHING to do with either the number on the slab or the price paid. I guess you will have to learn that expensive lesson yourself. >>
Really Frank? Answer me this.....you commented on the lack of eye appeal on all 5 coins without knowing the grades, nor the prices I paid. Lets assume that each was an AU58, and I paid slightly more than AU sheet money on each. Big difference in how I did now, huh Frank? Lets assume they are all 65's and I paid 65 money for each? Do you understand the point? If I only had $165 to spend on a half dime, and not a penny more , how do you like my purchase of that 1858 HD Frank?
<< <i>Do dealers still have to pay for tables at shows or is that free now?
As with most businesses, the coin business would be better off without some of it's consumers. >>
Yes, they still charge for tables. Should the dealer make his first two customers pay his table fee? As with most businesses, the coin business would be better off without some of its dealers.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Hey Frank....3x sheet price on a PQ coin? Lets take my first coin I wanted to buy as an example. 1806 half cent, small 6, no stems. Sheet has EF40 at $210 and AU50 at $400. This coin was PCGS EF45, dealer was asking $485 for it. I come in off the street with same coin in hand, Im LUCKY if the dealer offers me $210!!! Even if this EF45 was PQ for the grade, lets just assume it gets bumped up to an AU50....he is still charging almost 20% over sheet on a 50!!!! Come on Frank, who is trying to fool whom? $400 would have been a very fair price on that coin. >>
You need to attend some major auctions. Some PQ coins sell for 3x to 7x RETAIL.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Hey Frank....3x sheet price on a PQ coin? Lets take my first coin I wanted to buy as an example. 1806 half cent, small 6, no stems. Sheet has EF40 at $210 and AU50 at $400. This coin was PCGS EF45, dealer was asking $485 for it. I come in off the street with same coin in hand, Im LUCKY if the dealer offers me $210!!! Even if this EF45 was PQ for the grade, lets just assume it gets bumped up to an AU50....he is still charging almost 20% over sheet on a 50!!!! Come on Frank, who is trying to fool whom? $400 would have been a very fair price on that coin. >>
You need to attend some major auctions. Some PQ coins sell for 3x to 7x RETAIL. >>
ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, 100% agree with you Frank! But not 1806 half cents in EF45, or common date indian head cents in 64 red.
Hey Frank....3x sheet price on a PQ coin? Lets take my first coin I wanted to buy as an example. 1806 half cent, small 6, no stems. Sheet has EF40 at $210 and AU50 at $400. This coin was PCGS EF45, dealer was asking $485 for it. I come in off the street with same coin in hand, Im LUCKY if the dealer offers me $210!!! Even if this EF45 was PQ for the grade, lets just assume it gets bumped up to an AU50....he is still charging almost 20% over sheet on a 50!!!! Come on Frank, who is trying to fool whom? $400 would have been a very fair price on that coin. >>
You need to attend some major auctions. Some PQ coins sell for 3x to 7x RETAIL. >>
What are you trying to say? Coins sometime sell at auction for way more than they are worth?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If you are finished with coin shows for good, that's your business...but that's too bad. I don't think you're being fair to yourself or to the dealers though. We all must make several decisions when we buy a coin, including: 1. Does it fit my collecting goals and interests? (rare or common, completing a set, popular vs. unpopular series, etc.) 2. Do I like THIS coin at THIS price? (Doesn't really matter what another coin would sell for because I'm buying THIS coin...) 3. Am I buying the coin as a collector or as an investor? (Am I holding or flipping?)
In my opinion, if you are buying common, widget coins that are not high end for the grade, have superb eye appeal or are otherwise special in some way, you are wasting your money. And if you are buying coins that are special, you should expect to pay more. Nice coins aren't cheap and cheap coins aren't nice.
Additionally, three previous posts nicely summarize my feelings on this subject...
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet.
Eye appeal has NOTHING to do with either the number on the slab or the price paid. >>
<< <i>If you are finished with coin shows for good, that's your business...but that's too bad. I don't think you're being fair to yourself or to the dealers though. We all must make several decisions when we buy a coin, including: 1. Does it fit my collecting goals and interests? (rare or common, completing a set, popular vs. unpopular series, etc.) 2. Do I like THIS coin at THIS price? (Doesn't really matter what another coin would sell for because I'm buying THIS coin...) 3. Am I buying the coin as a collector or as an investor? (Am I holding or flipping?)
In my opinion, if you are buying common, widget coins that are not high end for the grade, have superb eye appeal or are otherwise special in some way, you are wasting your money. And if you are buying coins that are special, you should expect to pay more. Nice coins aren't cheap and cheap coins aren't nice.
Additionally, three previous posts nicely summarize my feelings on this subject...
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet.
Eye appeal has NOTHING to do with either the number on the slab or the price paid. >>
>>
Of the 30 or so slabbed type coins in my collection that I aquired through ebay AT or NEAR sheet money, I have been satisfied with all of them. I have been to enough shows to know that it does not matter whether the coin is high end, or PQ for the grade when it comes to negotiating prices. The simple truth is that even average for the grade coins at shows have dealers asking way above sheet. Since my collecting abilities do not include me being able to tell if a 64 is really PQ (unless there were 10 coins from the series/date all in 64's side by side) then I must conclude that its better for me to continue purchasing PCGS/NGC type coins off ebay for around sheet money. At least that way, I dont have some vest pocket dealer who rented a table for $50 and is "magically" now a full time dealer exempt from selling near sheet, tell me where to stick my sheet.
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet... >>
And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
Last show I was at, I sold quite a few pieces. I believe all went well above what Sheet would have been. Then again, I paid such a premium for them, as well. Yes, 1881-S morgans come nice, but I still pay above sheet. Why? Because some come even nicer.
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet... >>
And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
Last show I was at, I sold quite a few pieces. I believe all went well above what Sheet would have been. Then again, I paid such a premium for them, as well. Yes, 1881-S morgans come nice, but I still pay above sheet. Why? Because some come even nicer.
Jeremy >>
Jeremy, would you pay $485 for an 1806 half cent in EF45 when the sheet lists an AU50 at $400? This thread is not about paying over sheet, but rather how much over sheet is appropriate.
<< <i>Do dealers still have to pay for tables at shows or is that free now?
As with most businesses, the coin business would be better off without some of it's consumers. >>
Table fees? Maybe $50 for a local 60 table show....I could only guess $300-$500 possibly for the CSNS (someone will correct me).
Better off without someone who has the cash, but not willing to pay 40-60% over sheet on widgets, sure.
Whens the last time you saw a new B&M pop up in your area? Does that mean anything to you? >>
Well you guessed wrong. The cost of a corner table for PNG day is $460 dollars. The cost for the Central States Show is $850 for a total of $1310. Much more then 300-500. Also that does not include other costs associated with a show that have been broken down many times in the past. Lastly have you considered that if you did not make demands and had made a respectful counter-offer, a dealer may be more inclined to give it to you. It is difficult for people to treat someone nicely when they are making very strong demands with a "the world owes me" attitude.
<< <i>This thread is not about paying over sheet, but rather how much over sheet is appropriate. >>
That's simple- as much as you *think* is appropriate. Your job as a buyer- collector, dealer, whatever- is to figure that out (there's no "sheet" for that).
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet... >>
And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
Last show I was at, I sold quite a few pieces. I believe all went well above what Sheet would have been. Then again, I paid such a premium for them, as well. Yes, 1881-S morgans come nice, but I still pay above sheet. Why? Because some come even nicer.
Jeremy >>
Jeremy, would you pay $485 for an 1806 half cent in EF45 when the sheet lists an AU50 at $400? This thread is not about paying over sheet, but rather how much over sheet is appropriate. >>
I'm not Jeremy and this question was not addressed to me but I'm going to answer it any way. And my answer to whether or not I would "pay $485 for an 1806 half cent in EF45 when the sheet lists an AU50 at $400?" The answer is absolutely if I felt the actual coin residing in the labeled holder merited it.
Hey Dizzy.....what if I found a very LOW for the grade EF40, same coin, same everything. Is there a dealer on that bourse floor who's gonna say "gimmie sheet ask of $210 for it"? You and I both know there is no way in hell! So forget the high/low end for the grade debate. Its all about greed at this point.
<< <i>I must be doing it all wrong because I have almost never looked at Greysheet prior to making a purchase. >>
Not all of us are doctors with deep pockets RYK. No disrespect, but I work DAMN hard for my money. I can only wish I didnt have to worry about the "what if I have to sell this coin in a hurry to pay for some type of personal catastrophe", but I do. And I want to make damn sure that if that time ever comes, I wont have a seriously rude awakening!
gecko109, man, I just read through the whole thread and confirmed what I already knew: this is a tough crowd! I suppose that's why we all come here, nobody's going to sugar coat anything for anybody. Don't get me wrong, I think that's a good thing.
Unless you're a repeat customer, it's unlikely that a dealer at a show is going to start you off with a quote in the realm of price guides....even on "common" coins that are slabbed by PCGS. You came back with your money, so no worries...you may now run into the perfect $1900 coin and you'll be happy that you didn't spend it on multiple lesser coins.
I checked out your youtube video for the 1795 half and it looks like a sweet coin....as you indicated, nice even wear and problem free. When you flipped it over I was thinking, "what the hell are those marks?".....but of course you wiped off the cigarette ash and then all was well...good thing that you buy 'em slabbed...looks like you might be hazardous to raw coins.
<< <i>I must be doing it all wrong because I have almost never looked at Greysheet prior to making a purchase. >>
Not all of us are doctors with deep pockets RYK. No disrespect, but I work DAMN hard for my money. I can only wish I didnt have to worry about the "what if I have to sell this coin in a hurry to pay for some type of personal catastrophe", but I do. And I want to make damn sure that if that time ever comes, I wont have a seriously rude awakening! >>
I am sorry, but that comment is out of line.
It has nothing to do with depths of pockets, who works harder, who has to worry more about money, etc., and everything to do with how absurd Greysheet is as a price guide. However, since you brought it up, if you are looking at your coin collection as a piggy bank or emergency fund, you may indeed be in for a rude awakening.
<< <i>gecko109, man, I just read through the whole thread and confirmed what I already knew: this is a tough crowd! I suppose that's why we all come here, nobody's going to sugar coat anything for anybody. Don't get me wrong, I think that's a good thing.
Unless you're a repeat customer, it's unlikely that a dealer at a show is going to start you off with a quote in the realm of price guides....even on "common" coins that are slabbed by PCGS. You came back with your money, so no worries...you may now run into the perfect $1900 coin and you'll be happy that you didn't spend it on multiple lesser coins.
I checked out your youtube video for the 1795 half and it looks like a sweet coin....as you indicated, nice even wear and problem free. When you flipped it over I was thinking, "what the hell are those marks?".....but of course you wiped off the cigarette ash and then all was well...good thing that you buy 'em slabbed...looks like you might be hazardous to raw coins. >>
Thanks for the compliment. On coins like that, I dont mind paying double sheet prices, but for common date 64 red indian head cents? I quit buying raw coins not because im a hazard to them, but because they were a hazard to my wallet!
<< <i>I must be doing it all wrong because I have almost never looked at Greysheet prior to making a purchase. >>
Not all of us are doctors with deep pockets RYK. No disrespect, but I work DAMN hard for my money. I can only wish I didnt have to worry about the "what if I have to sell this coin in a hurry to pay for some type of personal catastrophe", but I do. And I want to make damn sure that if that time ever comes, I wont have a seriously rude awakening! >>
I am sorry, but that comment is out of line.
It has nothing to do with depths of pockets, who works harder, who has to worry more about money, etc., and everything to do with how absurd Greysheet is as a price guide. However, since you brought it up, if you are looking at your coin collection as a piggy bank or emergency fund, you may indeed be in for a rude awakening. >>
Im out of line in that im certain that you "work hard" for your cash as well, and for that I do apologize. Greysheet is only "absurd" if you have never bought a coin off ebay. Then sheet becomes a reality, not an absurdity. Besides, I have NEVER been to a show and asked for any coin at sheet. I realize dealers need to make a profit, so I always offer higher depending on the particular coin. $40, or 25% above sheet on a common date IHC in 64 red was a very appropriate offer. More than fair. As far as looking at my collection as a "piggy bank", it certainley is not. However, I have a large sum of real money into my collection, and it would be comforting to know that I did not pay twice for it than what its currently worth, just in the event that funds needed to be raised quickly for whatever reason.
TDN, this is where you and I agree COMPLETELY! As I stated, I recently paid $1625 for a 1795 flowing hair half in VG8. At the time, sheet was $735. Was I "upset", or "angry" after I bought it? I couldnt stop smiling all the way home! I expect to pay way over sheet on flowing hair pieces, but not on indian head cents in 64 RD. Do you kind of get my point now?
CDN only recently updated FH half prices after being woefully off for 2 yrs. Fine's and VG's basically doubled overnight for example. A year ago I wholesaled a VG10 for $1575....against a $750 VG CDN list price. And at that time everyone knew a VG was worth $1200 min.....apparently everyone except the CDN.
CDN is off by 2X to 4X on much better date seated. The TOP 6 - S mint quarters in the 1860-1872 era for example are off by about that amount. So I'm not surprised the 70CC dollar in XF45 was quoted so high. I recently was quoted $1200 on an XF 1875cc quarter that I figured off-hand was worth $800. The price guides list it at $400-$600. I know I would pay $1000, but no so sure they're worth $1200+. I can recall selling my last XF/AU for $225 back in the later 1980's.
Had you seen me at a show, I could have sold you a MS64 RD Indian cent for $200 or less. For coins that are routine and nothing special, CDN works fine for me. Sometimes I sell really nice coins for CDN bid or ask. Just depends what they are and what is or isn't moving well.
I feel that the 3 silver coins posted are on the scuffy side for their grades. If I went by 1989 or earlier standards some of those might not be technically fully mint state. The dime in particular appears excessively chattered imo. All now have some secondary toning after being dipped at one time. I would have not paid any premiums to listed "bid" for them. And I think there are better values in those grades even if it means paying 10-30% for higher end specimens. Last year I paid $440 each for a pair of MS64 seated dimes that came from an original untouched hoard of 2 dozen or so pieces. I picked 2 clean ones that I could not distinguish from MS65 examples. But that cost me 30% more. But I felt they were worth it. It's hard to find clean and higher end orig specimens of anything for "ask" or "ask+10%" Funny that when they went back to NGC for regrades one of the graders noticed them and said, hmmm, look like MS65's to me. And then they came back as 64's again (lol). Looks like they'll have to be sent in raw (lol).
Gecko, the IHC in 4 RD is a widget, but a problem free early copper in any grade will usually sell at well over sheet. If you want to buy an early copper at sheet, you will get sheeit.
At the last show I attended, I saw all of ONE coin which interested me. The guy wanted $11K for it. I had the $, but thought it was too high, so I passed.
I was out of there in 4 hours and didn't buy anything. The only thing was I was mad about was how rudely I was treated at Kagin's table, but from what I understand, that seems to be the norm with them. Perhaps I would have been treated better if I offered him a gold bar near melt.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet... >>
And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
Last show I was at, I sold quite a few pieces. I believe all went well above what Sheet would have been. Then again, I paid such a premium for them, as well. Yes, 1881-S morgans come nice, but I still pay above sheet. Why? Because some come even nicer.
Jeremy >>
Jeremy, would you pay $485 for an 1806 half cent in EF45 when the sheet lists an AU50 at $400? This thread is not about paying over sheet, but rather how much over sheet is appropriate. >>
In all fairness Jeremy, you are not Joe "Average" Sixpack when it comes to selling your coins, so its not likely a dealer is going to stick it to you when you are selling.
<< <i>TDN, this is where you and I agree COMPLETELY! As I stated, I recently paid $1625 for a 1795 flowing hair half in VG8. At the time, sheet was $735. Was I "upset", or "angry" after I bought it? I couldnt stop smiling all the way home! I expect to pay way over sheet on flowing hair pieces, but not on indian head cents in 64 RD. Do you kind of get my point now?
CDN only recently updated FH half prices after being woefully off for 2 yrs. Fine's and VG's basically doubled overnight for example. A year ago I wholesaled a VG10 for $1575....against a $750 VG CDN list price. And at that time everyone knew a VG was worth $1200 min.....apparently everyone except the CDN.
CDN is off by 2X to 4X on much better date seated. The TOP 6 - S mint quarters in the 1860-1872 era for example are off by about that amount. So I'm not surprised the 70CC dollar in XF45 was quoted so high. I recently was quoted $1200 on an XF 1875cc quarter that I figured off-hand was worth $800. The price guides list it at $400-$600. I know I would pay $1000, but no so sure they're worth $1200+. I can recall selling my last XF/AU for $225 back in the later 1980's.
Had you seen me at a show, I could have sold you a MS64 RD Indian cent for $200 or less. For coins that are routine and nothing special, CDN works fine for me. Sometimes I sell really nice coins for CDN bid or ask. Just depends what they are and what is or isn't moving well.
I feel that the 3 silver coins posted are on the scuffy side for their grades. If I went by 1989 or earlier standards some of those might not be technically fully mint state. The dime in particular appears excessively chattered imo. All now have some secondary toning after being dipped at one time. I would have not paid any premiums to listed "bid" for them. And I think there are better values in those grades even if it means paying 10-30% for higher end specimens. Last year I paid $440 each for a pair of MS64 seated dimes that came from an original untouched hoard of 2 dozen or so pieces. I picked 2 clean ones that I could not distinguish from MS65 examples. But that cost me 30% more. But I felt they were worth it. It's hard to find clean and higher end orig specimens of anything for "ask" or "ask+10%" Funny that when they went back to NGC for regrades one of the graders noticed them and said, hmmm, look like MS65's to me. And then they came back as 64's again (lol). Looks like they'll have to be sent in raw (lol).
roadrunner >>
Honest assesment on my coins posted. Regarding your story on the PQ seated dimes, that somewhat relates to the deal on the 1806 half cent I wanted to purchase today. Sheet ask on EF40 was $210....ask on an AU50 was $400....dealer wanted $485. Now if it was a PQ coin in an AU50 slab, I'd be happy to pay the $485. But it was, in my eyes, just a typical 45 as he also had a 53 for sale, which I compared side by side. Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys???
<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level.
it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-)
gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that.
<< <i>Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
Of course not. But then, you didn't ask for prices on every single coin at the show, did you? You probably picked that particular coin out because you liked it, right? Well, it sounds like the dealer liked it, too.
The greysheet is a lot like the free maps you used to get at the gas station- they'll get you from LA to NY okay (probably), but if you want directions to a more specific address, you're going to have to do a little more work yourself.
<< <i>Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
Of course not. But then, you didn't ask for prices on every single coin at the show, did you? You probably picked that particular coin out because you liked it, right? Well, it sounds like the dealer liked it, too.
The greysheet is a lot like the free maps you used to get at the gas station- they'll get you from LA to NY okay (probably), but if you want directions to a more specific address, you're going to have to do a little more work yourself. >>
Actually you are wrong. I had it in my head on the way there that I wanted a 64 rd IHC, and thats the only one I happened to see (im sure there were more). And the dealer who I spoke with can attest that I gave the coin a quick once over on each side without a loupe. Secondly, I shouldnt have to ask the price of every coin at the show. Especially if the first coin I ask to see is tagged at $230 but is sheet valued at $160. Makes me assume (probably incorrectly) that every single other coin in his case is overpriced as well. If a dealer has a price tag on the back of a coin anyway, why not put it on the front instead. That would save alot of the B.S. on negotiating. In fact, i'd estimate that over 90% of the coins at the show were unmarked. How many coins am I going to ask for a price on before I say "the hell with these guys"? I would wager that if every single coin at the show had a price clearly marked, I wouldnt have walked out of that place with any of the $1,900 I brought. Do you think I went to the bank yesterday to withdraw that cash, then drove over an hour to get to the show so I could not buy anything? Window shopping is free and fun, but I was there to BUY.
<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets.
Not about asking the price of every coin at the show, I'm not. Nothing like setting up a strawman to help make your argument, right?
<< <i>And the dealer who I spoke with can attest that I gave the coin a quick once over on each side without a loupe. >>
You wanted to buy a coin you only glanced at? Okay.
<< <i>Secondly, I shouldnt have to ask the price of every coin at the show. >>
No, you shouldn't. But nobody said you should. Another one of those pesky strawmen...
<< <i>Especially if the first coin I ask to see is tagged at $230 but is sheet valued at $160. Makes me assume (probably incorrectly) that every single other coin in his case is overpriced as well. >>
Well, you know what they say about assuming...
<< <i>If a dealer has a price tag on the back of a coin anyway, why not put it on the front instead. >>
I don't know- you'd have to ask him. Did you?
<< <i>That would save alot of the B.S. on negotiating. >>
Maybe he likes negotiating?
<< <i>In fact, i'd estimate that over 90% of the coins at the show were unmarked. >>
I'd think that's not likely to change anytime soon. You can either accept it or not, I guess.
<< <i>How many coins am I going to ask for a price on before I say "the hell with these guys"? >>
I don't know- how many?
<< <i> I would wager that if every single coin at the show had a price clearly marked, I wouldnt have walked out of that place with any of the $1,900 I brought. >>
I'm sure that's possible.
<< <i> Do you think I went to the bank yesterday to withdraw that cash, then drove over an hour to get to the show so I could not buy anything? >>
No.
<< <i>Window shopping is free and fun, but I was there to BUY. >>
<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets. >>
Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red?
Sorry you had a bad experience. Sounds frustrating! But if he wanted $230, he knows it's a superior example, and will likely get it at some point. Nicer material commands a premium.
Greysheet prices are pretty bad. I've paid 3 times sheet for semi-key Barbers quarters and halves, without even flinching. It just goes with the territory.
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets. >>
Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets. >>
Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Where did I say sight unseen? >>
Well if you buy it off the website for $275, its considered sight unseen. Same as buying any coin off ebay, or any website.
<< <i>Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Okay, I see four of the five here. I also see two dozen more that closed from the high $200s up through $1000. I'm sure not all of those are common dates, but I'll gladly bet that most of these common dates in PCGS MS64 RD go to happy buyers for $275.
You must realize that it is not reasonable to compare ebay shopping to a show where dealers are there to meet with you, and who paid for that opportunity with considerable money and time well over an entire weekend.
I only read the opening post, and I am sure others have suggested the same, but I think you should go back on opening day when all of the dealers are there. I will agree that the shows of today are not the same as 10 years ago, but you can still snag a good deal here and there if you have patience. That's part of the thrill.
<< <i>Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Okay, I see four of the five here. I also see two dozen more that closed from the high $200s up through $1000. I'm sure not all of those are common dates, but I'll gladly bet that most of these common dates in PCGS MS64 RD go to happy buyers for $275.
You must realize that it is not reasonable to compare ebay shopping to a show where dealers are there to meet with you, and who paid for that opportunity with considerable money and time well over an entire weekend. >>
Point well taken. Just 2 quick points in retort. First, and most important, why should I pay dealer "X" at a coin show that I paid gas for to get to, and ate out lunch at $230 for the same coin I can order at home in my underwear with a single click for $180? Secondly, and not as important, if I was selling this coin to this dealer, would he give me full sheet bid of $150 for it? Maybe, but probably somewhat less than that. But even if he did give me full sheet bid of $150, and sold it to the next joe for $200, thats a tidy profit margin for ANY business.
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<< <i>And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
AMEN! If the 'sheet' is good to buy then why is not good to sell from? >>
Because it is not a retail price list. These are for wholesale dealer-to-dealer transactions. >>
And, that makes it even funnier! I always laugh watching dealers do the "dealer to dealer" transactions and working to get a lower price than retail, especially early in a show. If a dealer is happy getting $x amount from a dealer, then why do they whine if that is the price a collector wants to pay?
I've been in sales before and didn't like a lot of the deceit. Now, I just look at things face value, ask the best price....if it isn't what I would pay, then I move on. If someone wants to sell something to a dealer...lower than what I would pay and have been "refused", then they get the lower price and less profit. If my money is good with them, then good. >>
bingo. good post.
<< <i>Thank you for the information regarding the type coin section of the Greysheet. I have to admit that I have been using the Greysheet for years and have never even noticed what was in this section.
If that half-dime is graded MS62 then it is either undergraded, again in my opinion, or there must be hidden wear or hairlines. It is simply too nice for the typical MS62. >>
Tom, its the only section I even care about as a purely type collector. Occasionally, i'll run into a coin I want and the price difference between sheet and dealer tag is huge. I then quickly realize its either a semi key date, or scarce variety. Getting back to the discussion though, bochiman made a good point. If a dealer is willing to sell X coin to another dealer at sheet ask, then why wouldnt he just sell it to me for 25% over sheet ask instead?
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Frank...I just lost all respect for you, and your credibility is now gone as well.....How can you say ANYTHING about the eye appeal of these coins without even knowing what the slabbed grade says, and subsequently what I paid? As an example....if all of those coins were slabbed as 58's, how do you like them now? I would expect more from an educated person than to say a coin has below average eye appeal without even knowing the grade. >>
You asked for opinions, I gave you mine based on 42 years in the coin business.
Eye appeal has NOTHING to do with either the number on the slab or the price paid. I guess you will have to learn that expensive
lesson yourself.
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Frank...I just lost all respect for you, and your credibility is now gone as well.....How can you say ANYTHING about the eye appeal of these coins without even knowing what the slabbed grade says, and subsequently what I paid? As an example....if all of those coins were slabbed as 58's, how do you like them now? I would expect more from an educated person than to say a coin has below average eye appeal without even knowing the grade. >>
You asked for opinions, I gave you mine based on 42 years in the coin business.
Eye appeal has NOTHING to do with either the number on the slab or the price paid. I guess you will have to learn that expensive
lesson yourself. >>
Really Frank? Answer me this.....you commented on the lack of eye appeal on all 5 coins without knowing the grades, nor the prices I paid. Lets assume that each was an AU58, and I paid slightly more than AU sheet money on each. Big difference in how I did now, huh Frank? Lets assume they are all 65's and I paid 65 money for each? Do you understand the point? If I only had $165 to spend on a half dime, and not a penny more , how do you like my purchase of that 1858 HD Frank?
<< <i>Do dealers still have to pay for tables at shows or is that free now?
As with most businesses, the coin business would be better off without some of it's consumers. >>
Yes, they still charge for tables. Should the dealer make his first two customers pay his table fee? As with most businesses, the coin business would be better off without some of its dealers.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>If a dealer is willing to sell X coin to another dealer at sheet ask, then why wouldnt he just sell it to me for 25% over sheet ask instead? >>
Could be any number of reasons. Next time the situation presents itself, you should ask.
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Hey Frank....3x sheet price on a PQ coin? Lets take my first coin I wanted to buy as an example. 1806 half cent, small 6, no stems. Sheet has EF40 at $210 and AU50 at $400. This coin was PCGS EF45, dealer was asking $485 for it. I come in off the street with same coin in hand, Im LUCKY if the dealer offers me $210!!! Even if this EF45 was PQ for the grade, lets just assume it gets bumped up to an AU50....he is still charging almost 20% over sheet on a 50!!!! Come on Frank, who is trying to fool whom? $400 would have been a very fair price on that coin. >>
You need to attend some major auctions. Some PQ coins sell for 3x to 7x RETAIL.
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Hey Frank....3x sheet price on a PQ coin? Lets take my first coin I wanted to buy as an example. 1806 half cent, small 6, no stems. Sheet has EF40 at $210 and AU50 at $400. This coin was PCGS EF45, dealer was asking $485 for it. I come in off the street with same coin in hand, Im LUCKY if the dealer offers me $210!!! Even if this EF45 was PQ for the grade, lets just assume it gets bumped up to an AU50....he is still charging almost 20% over sheet on a 50!!!! Come on Frank, who is trying to fool whom? $400 would have been a very fair price on that coin. >>
You need to attend some major auctions. Some PQ coins sell for 3x to 7x RETAIL. >>
ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, 100% agree with you Frank! But not 1806 half cents in EF45, or common date indian head cents in 64 red.
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Hey Frank....3x sheet price on a PQ coin? Lets take my first coin I wanted to buy as an example. 1806 half cent, small 6, no stems. Sheet has EF40 at $210 and AU50 at $400. This coin was PCGS EF45, dealer was asking $485 for it. I come in off the street with same coin in hand, Im LUCKY if the dealer offers me $210!!! Even if this EF45 was PQ for the grade, lets just assume it gets bumped up to an AU50....he is still charging almost 20% over sheet on a 50!!!! Come on Frank, who is trying to fool whom? $400 would have been a very fair price on that coin. >>
You need to attend some major auctions. Some PQ coins sell for 3x to 7x RETAIL. >>
What are you trying to say? Coins sometime sell at auction for way more than they are worth?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1. Does it fit my collecting goals and interests? (rare or common, completing a set, popular vs. unpopular series, etc.)
2. Do I like THIS coin at THIS price? (Doesn't really matter what another coin would sell for because I'm buying THIS coin...)
3. Am I buying the coin as a collector or as an investor? (Am I holding or flipping?)
In my opinion, if you are buying common, widget coins that are not high end for the grade, have superb eye appeal or are otherwise special in some way, you are wasting your money. And if you are buying coins that are special, you should expect to pay more. Nice coins aren't cheap and cheap coins aren't nice.
Additionally, three previous posts nicely summarize my feelings on this subject...
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet.
Eye appeal has NOTHING to do with either the number on the slab or the price paid. >>
<< <i>What are you trying to say? Coins sometime sell at auction for way more than they are worth? >>
Unless someone is holding a gun to the bidder's head, coins sell at auction for *exactly* what they're worth.
To that bidder, at that particular point in time.
<< <i>What are you trying to say? Coins sometime sell at auction for way more than they are worth? >>
A coin is "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it, so the "worth" must be the auction results, not
some price guide.
<< <i>If you are finished with coin shows for good, that's your business...but that's too bad. I don't think you're being fair to yourself or to the dealers though. We all must make several decisions when we buy a coin, including:
1. Does it fit my collecting goals and interests? (rare or common, completing a set, popular vs. unpopular series, etc.)
2. Do I like THIS coin at THIS price? (Doesn't really matter what another coin would sell for because I'm buying THIS coin...)
3. Am I buying the coin as a collector or as an investor? (Am I holding or flipping?)
In my opinion, if you are buying common, widget coins that are not high end for the grade, have superb eye appeal or are otherwise special in some way, you are wasting your money. And if you are buying coins that are special, you should expect to pay more. Nice coins aren't cheap and cheap coins aren't nice.
Additionally, three previous posts nicely summarize my feelings on this subject...
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet.
Eye appeal has NOTHING to do with either the number on the slab or the price paid. >>
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Of the 30 or so slabbed type coins in my collection that I aquired through ebay AT or NEAR sheet money, I have been satisfied with all of them. I have been to enough shows to know that it does not matter whether the coin is high end, or PQ for the grade when it comes to negotiating prices. The simple truth is that even average for the grade coins at shows have dealers asking way above sheet. Since my collecting abilities do not include me being able to tell if a 64 is really PQ (unless there were 10 coins from the series/date all in 64's side by side) then I must conclude that its better for me to continue purchasing PCGS/NGC type coins off ebay for around sheet money. At least that way, I dont have some vest pocket dealer who rented a table for $50 and is "magically" now a full time dealer exempt from selling near sheet, tell me where to stick my sheet.
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<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
Last show I was at, I sold quite a few pieces. I believe all went well above what Sheet would have been. Then again, I paid such a premium for them, as well. Yes, 1881-S morgans come nice, but I still pay above sheet. Why? Because some come even nicer.
Jeremy
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<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
Last show I was at, I sold quite a few pieces. I believe all went well above what Sheet would have been. Then again, I paid such a premium for them, as well. Yes, 1881-S morgans come nice, but I still pay above sheet. Why? Because some come even nicer.
Jeremy >>
Jeremy, would you pay $485 for an 1806 half cent in EF45 when the sheet lists an AU50 at $400? This thread is not about paying over sheet, but rather how much over sheet is appropriate.
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<< <i>Do dealers still have to pay for tables at shows or is that free now?
As with most businesses, the coin business would be better off without some of it's consumers. >>
Table fees? Maybe $50 for a local 60 table show....I could only guess $300-$500 possibly for the CSNS (someone will correct me).
Better off without someone who has the cash, but not willing to pay 40-60% over sheet on widgets, sure.
Whens the last time you saw a new B&M pop up in your area? Does that mean anything to you?
Well you guessed wrong. The cost of a corner table for PNG day is $460 dollars. The cost for the Central States Show is $850 for a total of $1310. Much more then 300-500. Also that does not include other costs associated with a show that have been broken down many times in the past. Lastly have you considered that if you did not make demands and had made a respectful counter-offer, a dealer may be more inclined to give it to you. It is difficult for people to treat someone nicely when they are making very strong demands with a "the world owes me" attitude.
<< <i>This thread is not about paying over sheet, but rather how much over sheet is appropriate. >>
That's simple- as much as you *think* is appropriate. Your job as a buyer- collector, dealer, whatever- is to figure that out (there's no "sheet" for that).
<< <i>This thread seems to come up once a month. >>
Yeah, and it's fun to read every time.
Not counteroffering on the 1896 S Half Eagle I wanted.
But I don't regret the wad of bills still in my wallet, so it's all good.
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<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
Last show I was at, I sold quite a few pieces. I believe all went well above what Sheet would have been. Then again, I paid such a premium for them, as well. Yes, 1881-S morgans come nice, but I still pay above sheet. Why? Because some come even nicer.
Jeremy >>
Jeremy, would you pay $485 for an 1806 half cent in EF45 when the sheet lists an AU50 at $400? This thread is not about paying over sheet, but rather how much over sheet is appropriate. >>
I'm not Jeremy and this question was not addressed to me but I'm going to answer it any way. And my answer to whether or not I would "pay $485 for an 1806 half cent in EF45 when the sheet lists an AU50 at $400?" The answer is absolutely if I felt the actual coin residing in the labeled holder merited it.
<< <i>I must be doing it all wrong because I have almost never looked at Greysheet prior to making a purchase. >>
Not all of us are doctors with deep pockets RYK. No disrespect, but I work DAMN hard for my money. I can only wish I didnt have to worry about the "what if I have to sell this coin in a hurry to pay for some type of personal catastrophe", but I do. And I want to make damn sure that if that time ever comes, I wont have a seriously rude awakening!
man, I just read through the whole thread and confirmed what I already knew: this is a tough crowd! I suppose that's why we all come here, nobody's going to sugar coat anything for anybody. Don't get me wrong, I think that's a good thing.
Unless you're a repeat customer, it's unlikely that a dealer at a show is going to start you off with a quote in the realm of price guides....even on "common" coins that are slabbed by PCGS. You came back with your money, so no worries...you may now run into the perfect $1900 coin and you'll be happy that you didn't spend it on multiple lesser coins.
I checked out your youtube video for the 1795 half and it looks like a sweet coin....as you indicated, nice even wear and problem free. When you flipped it over I was thinking, "what the hell are those marks?".....but of course you wiped off the cigarette ash and then all was well...good thing that you buy 'em slabbed...looks like you might be hazardous to raw coins.
PS-I agree that it sure looks PQ for VG8
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<< <i>I must be doing it all wrong because I have almost never looked at Greysheet prior to making a purchase. >>
Not all of us are doctors with deep pockets RYK. No disrespect, but I work DAMN hard for my money. I can only wish I didnt have to worry about the "what if I have to sell this coin in a hurry to pay for some type of personal catastrophe", but I do. And I want to make damn sure that if that time ever comes, I wont have a seriously rude awakening! >>
I am sorry, but that comment is out of line.
It has nothing to do with depths of pockets, who works harder, who has to worry more about money, etc., and everything to do with how absurd Greysheet is as a price guide. However, since you brought it up, if you are looking at your coin collection as a piggy bank or emergency fund, you may indeed be in for a rude awakening.
<< <i>gecko109,
man, I just read through the whole thread and confirmed what I already knew: this is a tough crowd! I suppose that's why we all come here, nobody's going to sugar coat anything for anybody. Don't get me wrong, I think that's a good thing.
Unless you're a repeat customer, it's unlikely that a dealer at a show is going to start you off with a quote in the realm of price guides....even on "common" coins that are slabbed by PCGS. You came back with your money, so no worries...you may now run into the perfect $1900 coin and you'll be happy that you didn't spend it on multiple lesser coins.
I checked out your youtube video for the 1795 half and it looks like a sweet coin....as you indicated, nice even wear and problem free. When you flipped it over I was thinking, "what the hell are those marks?".....but of course you wiped off the cigarette ash and then all was well...good thing that you buy 'em slabbed...looks like you might be hazardous to raw coins.
Thanks for the compliment. On coins like that, I dont mind paying double sheet prices, but for common date 64 red indian head cents? I quit buying raw coins not because im a hazard to them, but because they were a hazard to my wallet!
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<< <i>I must be doing it all wrong because I have almost never looked at Greysheet prior to making a purchase. >>
Not all of us are doctors with deep pockets RYK. No disrespect, but I work DAMN hard for my money. I can only wish I didnt have to worry about the "what if I have to sell this coin in a hurry to pay for some type of personal catastrophe", but I do. And I want to make damn sure that if that time ever comes, I wont have a seriously rude awakening! >>
I am sorry, but that comment is out of line.
It has nothing to do with depths of pockets, who works harder, who has to worry more about money, etc., and everything to do with how absurd Greysheet is as a price guide. However, since you brought it up, if you are looking at your coin collection as a piggy bank or emergency fund, you may indeed be in for a rude awakening. >>
Im out of line in that im certain that you "work hard" for your cash as well, and for that I do apologize. Greysheet is only "absurd" if you have never bought a coin off ebay. Then sheet becomes a reality, not an absurdity. Besides, I have NEVER been to a show and asked for any coin at sheet. I realize dealers need to make a profit, so I always offer higher depending on the particular coin. $40, or 25% above sheet on a common date IHC in 64 red was a very appropriate offer. More than fair. As far as looking at my collection as a "piggy bank", it certainley is not. However, I have a large sum of real money into my collection, and it would be comforting to know that I did not pay twice for it than what its currently worth, just in the event that funds needed to be raised quickly for whatever reason.
CDN only recently updated FH half prices after being woefully off for 2 yrs. Fine's and VG's basically doubled overnight for example. A year ago I wholesaled a VG10 for $1575....against a $750 VG CDN list price. And at that time everyone knew a VG was worth $1200 min.....apparently everyone except the CDN.
CDN is off by 2X to 4X on much better date seated. The TOP 6 - S mint quarters in the 1860-1872 era for example are off by about that amount. So I'm not surprised the 70CC dollar in XF45 was quoted so high. I recently was quoted $1200 on an XF 1875cc quarter that I figured off-hand was worth $800. The price guides list it at $400-$600. I know I would pay $1000, but no so sure they're worth $1200+.
I can recall selling my last XF/AU for $225 back in the later 1980's.
Had you seen me at a show, I could have sold you a MS64 RD Indian cent for $200 or less. For coins that are routine and nothing special, CDN works fine for me. Sometimes I sell really nice coins for CDN bid or ask. Just depends what they are and what is or isn't moving well.
I feel that the 3 silver coins posted are on the scuffy side for their grades. If I went by 1989 or earlier standards some of those might not be technically fully mint state. The dime in particular appears excessively chattered imo. All now have some secondary toning after being dipped at one time. I would have not paid any premiums to listed "bid" for them. And I think there are better values in those grades even if it means paying 10-30% for higher end specimens. Last year I paid $440 each for a pair of MS64 seated dimes that came from an original untouched hoard of 2 dozen or so pieces. I picked 2 clean ones that I could not distinguish from MS65 examples. But that cost me 30% more. But I felt they were worth it. It's hard to find clean and higher end orig specimens of anything for "ask" or "ask+10%" Funny that when they went back to NGC for regrades one of the graders noticed them and said, hmmm, look like MS65's to me. And then they came back as 64's again (lol). Looks like they'll have to be sent in raw (lol).
roadrunner
At the last show I attended, I saw all of ONE coin which interested me. The guy wanted $11K for it. I had the $, but thought it was too high, so I passed.
I was out of there in 4 hours and didn't buy anything. The only thing was I was mad about was how rudely I was treated at Kagin's table, but from what I understand, that seems to be the norm with them. Perhaps I would have been treated better if I offered him a gold bar near melt.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
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<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
And what do dealers pay for "nice coins" when Joe Sixpack tries to sell them some coins? How about 10% back of bid if they are lucky? >>
Last show I was at, I sold quite a few pieces. I believe all went well above what Sheet would have been. Then again, I paid such a premium for them, as well. Yes, 1881-S morgans come nice, but I still pay above sheet. Why? Because some come even nicer.
Jeremy >>
Jeremy, would you pay $485 for an 1806 half cent in EF45 when the sheet lists an AU50 at $400? This thread is not about paying over sheet, but rather how much over sheet is appropriate. >>
In all fairness Jeremy, you are not Joe "Average" Sixpack when it comes to selling your coins, so its not likely a dealer is going to stick it to you when you are selling.
<< <i>TDN, this is where you and I agree COMPLETELY! As I stated, I recently paid $1625 for a 1795 flowing hair half in VG8. At the time, sheet was $735. Was I "upset", or "angry" after I bought it? I couldnt stop smiling all the way home! I expect to pay way over sheet on flowing hair pieces, but not on indian head cents in 64 RD. Do you kind of get my point now?
CDN only recently updated FH half prices after being woefully off for 2 yrs. Fine's and VG's basically doubled overnight for example. A year ago I wholesaled a VG10 for $1575....against a $750 VG CDN list price. And at that time everyone knew a VG was worth $1200 min.....apparently everyone except the CDN.
CDN is off by 2X to 4X on much better date seated. The TOP 6 - S mint quarters in the 1860-1872 era for example are off by about that amount. So I'm not surprised the 70CC dollar in XF45 was quoted so high. I recently was quoted $1200 on an XF 1875cc quarter that I figured off-hand was worth $800. The price guides list it at $400-$600. I know I would pay $1000, but no so sure they're worth $1200+.
I can recall selling my last XF/AU for $225 back in the later 1980's.
Had you seen me at a show, I could have sold you a MS64 RD Indian cent for $200 or less. For coins that are routine and nothing special, CDN works fine for me. Sometimes I sell really nice coins for CDN bid or ask. Just depends what they are and what is or isn't moving well.
I feel that the 3 silver coins posted are on the scuffy side for their grades. If I went by 1989 or earlier standards some of those might not be technically fully mint state. The dime in particular appears excessively chattered imo. All now have some secondary toning after being dipped at one time. I would have not paid any premiums to listed "bid" for them. And I think there are better values in those grades even if it means paying 10-30% for higher end specimens. Last year I paid $440 each for a pair of MS64 seated dimes that came from an original untouched hoard of 2 dozen or so pieces. I picked 2 clean ones that I could not distinguish from MS65 examples. But that cost me 30% more. But I felt they were worth it. It's hard to find clean and higher end orig specimens of anything for "ask" or "ask+10%" Funny that when they went back to NGC for regrades one of the graders noticed them and said, hmmm, look like MS65's to me. And then they came back as 64's again (lol). Looks like they'll have to be sent in raw (lol).
roadrunner >>
Honest assesment on my coins posted. Regarding your story on the PQ seated dimes, that somewhat relates to the deal on the 1806 half cent I wanted to purchase today. Sheet ask on EF40 was $210....ask on an AU50 was $400....dealer wanted $485. Now if it was a PQ coin in an AU50 slab, I'd be happy to pay the $485. But it was, in my eyes, just a typical 45 as he also had a 53 for sale, which I compared side by side. Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys???
<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a
thousand being above the ordinary level.
it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-)
gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers
know they have collectors right where they want them. they know
collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that
point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that.
<< <i>Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
Of course not. But then, you didn't ask for prices on every single coin at the show, did you? You probably picked that particular coin out because you liked it, right? Well, it sounds like the dealer liked it, too.
The greysheet is a lot like the free maps you used to get at the gas station- they'll get you from LA to NY okay (probably), but if you want directions to a more specific address, you're going to have to do a little more work yourself.
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<< <i>Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
Of course not. But then, you didn't ask for prices on every single coin at the show, did you? You probably picked that particular coin out because you liked it, right? Well, it sounds like the dealer liked it, too.
The greysheet is a lot like the free maps you used to get at the gas station- they'll get you from LA to NY okay (probably), but if you want directions to a more specific address, you're going to have to do a little more work yourself. >>
Actually you are wrong. I had it in my head on the way there that I wanted a 64 rd IHC, and thats the only one I happened to see (im sure there were more). And the dealer who I spoke with can attest that I gave the coin a quick once over on each side without a loupe. Secondly, I shouldnt have to ask the price of every coin at the show. Especially if the first coin I ask to see is tagged at $230 but is sheet valued at $160. Makes me assume (probably incorrectly) that every single other coin in his case is overpriced as well. If a dealer has a price tag on the back of a coin anyway, why not put it on the front instead. That would save alot of the B.S. on negotiating. In fact, i'd estimate that over 90% of the coins at the show were unmarked. How many coins am I going to ask for a price on before I say "the hell with these guys"? I would wager that if every single coin at the show had a price clearly marked, I wouldnt have walked out of that place with any of the $1,900 I brought. Do you think I went to the bank yesterday to withdraw that cash, then drove over an hour to get to the show so I could not buy anything? Window shopping is free and fun, but I was there to BUY.
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<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Actually you are wrong. >>
Not about asking the price of every coin at the show, I'm not. Nothing like setting up a strawman to help make your argument, right?
<< <i>And the dealer who I spoke with can attest that I gave the coin a quick once over on each side without a loupe. >>
You wanted to buy a coin you only glanced at? Okay.
<< <i>Secondly, I shouldnt have to ask the price of every coin at the show. >>
No, you shouldn't. But nobody said you should. Another one of those pesky strawmen...
<< <i>Especially if the first coin I ask to see is tagged at $230 but is sheet valued at $160. Makes me assume (probably incorrectly) that every single other coin in his case is overpriced as well. >>
Well, you know what they say about assuming...
<< <i>If a dealer has a price tag on the back of a coin anyway, why not put it on the front instead. >>
I don't know- you'd have to ask him. Did you?
<< <i>That would save alot of the B.S. on negotiating. >>
Maybe he likes negotiating?
<< <i>In fact, i'd estimate that over 90% of the coins at the show were unmarked. >>
I'd think that's not likely to change anytime soon. You can either accept it or not, I guess.
<< <i>How many coins am I going to ask for a price on before I say "the hell with these guys"? >>
I don't know- how many?
<< <i> I would wager that if every single coin at the show had a price clearly marked, I wouldnt have walked out of that place with any of the $1,900 I brought. >>
I'm sure that's possible.
<< <i> Do you think I went to the bank yesterday to withdraw that cash, then drove over an hour to get to the show so I could not buy anything? >>
No.
<< <i>Window shopping is free and fun, but I was there to BUY. >>
But you didn't.
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<< <i>
<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets. >>
Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red?
Greysheet prices are pretty bad. I've paid 3 times sheet for semi-key Barbers quarters and halves, without even flinching. It just goes with the territory.
Dave
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<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets. >>
Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Where did I say sight unseen?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets. >>
Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Where did I say sight unseen? >>
Well if you buy it off the website for $275, its considered sight unseen. Same as buying any coin off ebay, or any website.
<< <i>Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Okay, I see four of the five here. I also see two dozen more that closed from the high $200s up through $1000. I'm sure not all of those are common dates, but I'll gladly bet that most of these common dates in PCGS MS64 RD go to happy buyers for $275.
You must realize that it is not reasonable to compare ebay shopping to a show where dealers are there to meet with you, and who paid for that opportunity with considerable money and time well over an entire weekend.
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
I only read the opening post, and I am sure others have suggested the same, but I think you should go back on opening day when all of the dealers are there. I will agree that the shows of today are not the same as 10 years ago, but you can still snag a good deal here and there if you have patience. That's part of the thrill.
<< <i>
<< <i>Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Okay, I see four of the five here. I also see two dozen more that closed from the high $200s up through $1000. I'm sure not all of those are common dates, but I'll gladly bet that most of these common dates in PCGS MS64 RD go to happy buyers for $275.
You must realize that it is not reasonable to compare ebay shopping to a show where dealers are there to meet with you, and who paid for that opportunity with considerable money and time well over an entire weekend. >>
Point well taken. Just 2 quick points in retort. First, and most important, why should I pay dealer "X" at a coin show that I paid gas for to get to, and ate out lunch at $230 for the same coin I can order at home in my underwear with a single click for $180? Secondly, and not as important, if I was selling this coin to this dealer, would he give me full sheet bid of $150 for it? Maybe, but probably somewhat less than that. But even if he did give me full sheet bid of $150, and sold it to the next joe for $200, thats a tidy profit margin for ANY business.