I can tell you from personal experience that the best values overall I have ever gotten, apart obviously form variety cherrypicking, have been exceptional or extremely rare coins that I stretched and bought for, not 20% or 50% over sheet but, several times the stated sheet price. That 1806 half cent might not be a condition rarity but was it exceptional in quality of the surfaces, color, centering, originality, ....?
<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets. >>
Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Where did I say sight unseen? >>
Well if you buy it off the website for $275, its considered sight unseen. Same as buying any coin off ebay, or any website. >>
Have you ever actually bought a coin from a specialist dealer that makes a market?
I'll guarantee you that I can sell back the majority of the coins that I have bought from Rick for between what I paid and a profit.
Equating Ebay and buying from someone like Rick, even off of his website on full approval reflects pure ignorance, plain and simple.
<< <i>Point well taken. Just 2 quick points in retort. First, and most important, why should I pay dealer "X" at a coin show that I paid gas for to get to, and ate out lunch at $230 for the same coin I can order at home in my underwear with a single click for $180? Secondly, and not as important, if I was selling this coin to this dealer, would he give me full sheet bid of $150 for it? Maybe, but probably somewhat less than that. But even if he did give me full sheet bid of $150, and sold it to the next joe for $200, thats a tidy profit margin for ANY business. >>
That $50 is a markup, not a profit. The gas and food is a wash because the dealer is buying the same -- and for that you get face-to-face contact with other enthusiasts who are mostly dressed up beyond just their undies -- and I'm sure the dealers here can weigh in on their other costs, not the least of which included taxes.
If you want to sell coins and you don't think bid is fair, consider consigning. I've sold my mistakes at bid and shrugged it off as a learning experience, and sold a couple of PQ coins at much, much more than bid by consigning.
<< <i>First, and most important, why should I pay dealer "X" at a coin show that I paid gas for to get to, and ate out lunch at $230 for the same coin I can order at home in my underwear with a single click for $180? >>
I don't think there's anybody here who has said you should. If you don't like the dealer's price, you don't have to buy the coin. The flip side of this is that the dealer is under no obligation to make coins available to you at the price you want to pay.
<< <i>Secondly, and not as important, if I was selling this coin to this dealer, would he give me full sheet bid of $150 for it? Maybe, but probably somewhat less than that. But even if he did give me full sheet bid of $150, and sold it to the next joe for $200, thats a tidy profit margin for ANY business. >>
The greysheet doesn't buy or sell coins- they sell a price guide. It's up to each individual to decide how to use the information they provide. And as far as profit margins are concerned- as a buyer, you're looking to buy coins as cheaply as possible, so it seems only reasonable to conclude that sellers are going to try to get as much for them as they can.
What is lost in all of this is that a coin show is basically an open market bazaar. Everyone prices their wares as THEY choose, not according to any reference material. You either dicker and come to agreement or decline the opportunity. No one says that ANY dealer must be reasonable or fair, only that they pay the entry fee for their table.
Economic markets soon sift out those who cannot make a market or who are unreasonable. My only question would be, does the dealer still have these coins for sale? With all of the web sites, it might be simple to check. If he got his price from someone else, then it was just the market at work. It is common knowledge that the "sheet" is often out of date in many areas and some use it and some dont. Either way, no one is REQUIRED to use it as the basis for their pricing.
I am sorry you feel abused, but this is how it is. I suspect the prices become more flexible as the show wears on and the availability of desirable coins goes down. Friday afternoon at the Baltimore shows have been good to me and I have passed on some coins I thought were over priced and bought some that I believed were fairly priced. It is the nature of shows. Yes, I have left with almost all the money I have brought a couple of times when I was looking for a very specific coin or two, but I still had a GREAT time.
Good luck in the future
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
I really disagree with your view in connection with coin shows. First, its okay not to buy a coin because one believes it is overpriced. Further, it is okay to return home without buying a coin.
Coin shows serve multiple purposes. One can learn by looking at coins, sharpen grading skills, learn alittle more about a series from someone that just may know more. It also give one the chance to ask questions not just to dealers, but other collectors. My favorite is looking for what I might like because its not just about coins, its about the design, art and history that makes this the hobby it is. Usually at shows one will make the best contacts to develop a better appreciation of the hobby...
Give it another chance and choose not to live or die by the greysheet...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Okay, I see four of the five here. I also see two dozen more that closed from the high $200s up through $1000. I'm sure not all of those are common dates, but I'll gladly bet that most of these common dates in PCGS MS64 RD go to happy buyers for $275.
You must realize that it is not reasonable to compare ebay shopping to a show where dealers are there to meet with you, and who paid for that opportunity with considerable money and time well over an entire weekend. >>
Point well taken. Just 2 quick points in retort. First, and most important, why should I pay dealer "X" at a coin show that I paid gas for to get to, and ate out lunch at $230 for the same coin I can order at home in my underwear with a single click for $180? Secondly, and not as important, if I was selling this coin to this dealer, would he give me full sheet bid of $150 for it? Maybe, but probably somewhat less than that. But even if he did give me full sheet bid of $150, and sold it to the next joe for $200, thats a tidy profit margin for ANY business. >>
25% margin on cost is a tidy margin? On what strange business planet do you reside, anyway?
for what it's worth , on dealer day at a large show , would not most all above posts apply to dealers beating up on each other on sheet pricing then using the same 'tactics' on the collector/investor?
Anyone buying his or her collection off of ebay or using ebay as a market "maker," will wake up one day to be quite disillusioned. About the only exception are slabbed widgets or slabbed generic gold. Most don't vary a whole lot from a base price.
If most of what one buys is at near sheet bid levels, and you haven't sold anything to check on your grading skills, there could be a costly lesson that follows.
Speaking as a dealer, I can only hope that you never attend any show that I am set up at! You complain about your costs to attend the show but do you even consider that the dealers cost just to do the show to put up with ijits like you are probably well over $1000? Stop & think for a moment, transportation to the show is easily 200-300 unless driving a short distance. At least 3 to 5 nights in the hotel with the added room taxes is another 200-350 the table rent is at least 350 and then you have the misc expenses of parking, eating, etc. God forbid he might make $50 on a coin! As to graysheet bid prices, even a fairly new dealer quickly learns he could be a millionaire in a month if he could only buy coins at bid - and I'm not talking about just picking out the rare & esoteric stuff. It never ceases to amaze me how some coin collectors have a disconnect between the fact that because it is a 'hobby' to them that the dealer who is there for them day in & day out should just be doing everything at cost with no regard to the fact that this is his/her profession and they need to earn a living to provide for their families and their own 'hobby' as well. As to your pictured ebay coins consider this......it is possible to get a 'steal' or bargain now & then just from the sheer amount of product that is up for sale there as no one I know has time to check and follow every listing. Perhaps they were from a fellow collector who didn't have access to a good dealer to sell them to or went to a dealer who did indeed try to rip them off. I'll tell you this though - I find it impossible to believe you could take those coins to a show like Central States, Long Beach or Baltimore and NOT be able to find more than a few dealers there who would happily pay bid for them before you left. Next time sir please stop and take the time to think before going off on a silly rant like that.
buying Rhode Island Nationals please email, PM or call 401-295-3000
I can't wait to go to a few more and find more dealers who treat me fairly and take the time to talk about the coins I'm interested in.
I thought it was a given that special coins were valued more than Greysheet pricing.I guess it's dummies like me who keep the lights on. >>
Is a common date IHC in 64 red a "special" coin? And I DID value it more than sheet....I valued it at 125% of sheet in fact. But that STILL wasnt enough!
Here are two Indian cents PCGS 64 RD from Teletrade
The first hammered for $240, which is about $270 with juice and shipping:
The second hammered for $190, about $225 to take home, not as nice as the first
So the $230 dealer ask, lowered to $215 best price, was not out of line. Grey sheet price for any decent looking half cent, or any really nice full red Indians, and a long list of other coins is going to be a non-starter. Widget or non-widget.
The other issue is that a percentage of Ebay items go unsold because the starting price, or the reserve is too high for the market at the moment. Same deal at a show. A percentage will go unsold or the dealer knows they have customers coming later that may want them at the high price. Another possibility is that the dealer smelled money on the customer, sized him up and figured the customer to be a newbie. Worth taking a shot with a full retail price, for the profit. Dealers size up customers all the time, and that is a big part of how they stay in business.
One other point, that most dealers will work a better deal for known customers. Someone walking in off the street usually pays more to buy, and gets less when they sell, than a good steady customer. Some dealers sell at full retail price. Try and buy at sheet price from one of them, and you are likely going to be asked to politely move on. Same as on Ebay where some start their bids very high, or have a high buy it now, but rarely sell anything.
"But even if he did give me full sheet bid of $150, and sold it to the next joe for $200, thats a tidy profit margin for ANY business. "
As others have pointed out this is not profit. Take into to consideration the overhead of being a seller and add into the mix the dealer's time (I really don't know anyone that wants to be paid nothing per hour whether as an employee or self employed) . Finally being self employed the dealer gets to contribute to the tax coffers of both state and federal governments.
I'm not a dealer myself, but have been self employed these past twenty years and I pay a tad over 51% of my income to taxes, good ol social security takes a nice 15% all by itself.
So in retro spec perhaps you are correct $50 is not really the approriate amount, should be some higher figure when all said and done.
<< <i>Anyone buying his or her collection off of ebay or using ebay as a market "maker," will wake up one day to be quite disillusioned. About the only exception are slabbed widgets or slabbed generic gold. Most don't vary a whole lot from a base price.
If most of what one buys is at near sheet bid levels, and you haven't sold anything to check on your grading skills, there could be a costly lesson that follows.
roadrunner >>
The absolute truth. Nice coins don't sell for bargain prices. Coins with serious investment potential never sell at a discount or anywhere near greysheet bid. Coins that will drive a bidding war in the future due to overall eye appeal are had for significant premiums. I shouldn't make an absolute statement of never, as there are always the stories anyone who's been doing this for a while can tell, but they are by far the exceptions. The greysheet is for widgets. Widgets aren't bad but they are still widgets.
<< <i>Here are two Indian cents PCGS 64 RD from Teletrade
The first hammered for $240, which is about $270 with juice and shipping:
The second hammered for $190, about $225 to take home, not as nice as the first
So the $230 dealer ask, lowered to $215 best price, was not out of line. Grey sheet price for any decent looking half cent, or any really nice full red Indians, and a long list of other coins is going to be a non-starter. Widget or non-widget.
The other issue is that a percentage of Ebay items go unsold because the starting price, or the reserve is too high for the market at the moment. Same deal at a show. A percentage will go unsold or the dealer knows they have customers coming later that may want them at the high price. Another possibility is that the dealer smelled money on the customer, sized him up and figured the customer to be a newbie. Worth taking a shot with a full retail price, for the profit. Dealers size up customers all the time, and that is a big part of how they stay in business.
One other point, that most dealers will work a better deal for known customers. Someone walking in off the street usually pays more to buy, and gets less when they sell, than a good steady customer. Some dealers sell at full retail price. Try and buy at sheet price from one of them, and you are likely going to be asked to politely move on. Same as on Ebay where some start their bids very high, or have a high buy it now, but rarely sell anything. >>
Are there any recent teletrade 64 reds that sold for $200 or less WITH the juice? Or did you just pick out the two highest closers among the common dates (one with Rick's sticker to boot)?
<< <i>Anyone buying his or her collection off of ebay or using ebay as a market "maker," will wake up one day to be quite disillusioned. About the only exception are slabbed widgets or slabbed generic gold. Most don't vary a whole lot from a base price.
If most of what one buys is at near sheet bid levels, and you haven't sold anything to check on your grading skills, there could be a costly lesson that follows.
roadrunner >>
The absolute truth. Nice coins don't sell for bargain prices. Coins with serious investment potential never sell at a discount or anywhere near greysheet bid. Coins that will drive a bidding war in the future due to overall eye appeal are had for significant premiums. I shouldn't make an absolute statement of never, as there are always the stories anyone who's been doing this for a while can tell, but they are by far the exceptions. The greysheet is for widgets. Widgets aren't bad but they are still widgets. >>
Take a look at my sigline that i've had for the 6 months I have been here. Now take a guess at what I collect.
I was in a Vegas at a nice shop and came across an 1870-CC Seated Dollar - PCGS XF45. Sheet has these, and forgive me I dont have it in front of me, at about $1700. So, I ask to see it and, it was very nice-I would even go so far as to say that it might undergraded. But, when I look at the price and this guy has it at over $4700!!!!!
Wow, I literally looked several times at the price to make sure I was seeing correctly! Now, as others have said I can understand that things that are hard to come by and are nice for the grade, that you cannot expect to pay sheet. However, at nearly 3x sheet I thought this was ridiculous. Needless to say I passed and went on my way.
I also consider myself an avid collector so I feel your pain. >>
With all due repect for any collector out there, to buy nice attractive coins, you have to pay for them. eBay is not a market and the stuff that sells there does not dictate what anything is worth. As a specialist market-maker I have to balance my buy price with the sell price based on past sales and the difficulty in replacing what I sell. If I raise my sell price, it means I am having to pay more. The market today is super-heated, so the cost of replacement is very high.
As an astute buyer, you can make money knowing that I am buying MS-64RD's for $205 (or more). Just learn how to grade and try and buy the coins for $150 and send them to me. I wish you would, I would make my job much, much easier.
As a collector building a collection, if you bought all your MS64RD's from me at $250 last year, I bet you would not lose a cent in selling them back to me. Why, because as a valued customer, I feel like you should be treated with the utmost respect and frankly, I need the coins.
Coin collecting should be fun, not a for-profit endeavor. If you have fun and break even you are ahead, really. If you make a killing, great. The people who lose are the ones who are trying to be too smart. They buy overgraded coins because they are cheap, get burnt on eBay looking for a deal and are too fickle with their buying to actually form a real collection.
I personally cannot think of a better, more efficient collector market than coins.
- Baseball cards - Stamps - Comic books - Vinyl Records - You name it...
For anyone who thinks a coin is over-priced, there is a simple question to ask the seller: "Where did you arrive at that price"
For the record, my PNG day was very good. I bought a ton of great stuff, attractively priced too.
I bought a lovely top grade type coin out of the Bowers sale that has a (Retail) PCGS Price Guide value of under $9,000 and it cost me over $27,500. More than triple guide - let alone 25% or 33% premiums. If you want beautiful coins, sometimes that is what it takes.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement.
<< <i>I bought a lovely finest known type coin out of the Bowers sale that has a (Retail) PCGS Price Guide value of under $9,000 and it cost me over $27,500. More than triple guide - let alone 25% or 33% premiums. If you want beautiful coins, sometimes that is what it takes.
Wondercoin >>
You are talking about a top pop, im talking about a common date 64 red indian. Just a tad different scenario here. And Rick, would you like that link to the 5 common date PCGS 64 red indians that all closed for at or less than $203 in the past 2 weeks? Unless PCGS is really just blowing the grades on those, it seems to me like they are attractive deals. Its also very unfair Rick to assume that every slabbed coin sold on ebay is somehow subpar, or even immune to being PQ.
No it's not. It's at least 10 times rarer than the Huge O.
Ray >>
doh! i am stumped then. how about fake? that would make it a rare tough coin to find ;-)
i am curious now! >>
It's the "crumbled die" 1854-O. Only a couple a year will come across Ebay. I've been collecting this series for 20 years and this makes 3 that I have been able to aquire.
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement. >>
But if I drive for over an hour to meet some pretentious dealer whose merchandise is out of line with reality, I get the same coin for $230.....unless I "grovel" and get him to give me a "deal" at $215. There is a real $35 difference between the 2 coins. And thats just sales price, lets not even fudge with the convienence issues.
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement. >>
But if I drive for over an hour to meet some pretentious dealer whose merchandise is out of line with reality, I get the same coin for $230.....unless I "grovel" and get him to give me a "deal" at $215. There is a real $35 difference between the 2 coins. And thats just sales price, lets not even fudge with the convienence issues. >>
I don't collect cents, but that coin don't look Red to me.
<< <i>Its also very unfair Rick to assume that every slabbed coin sold on ebay is somehow subpar, or even immune to being PQ. >>
It doesn't appear to me that Rick assumed any such thing. >>
The people who lose are the ones who are trying to be too smart. They buy overgraded coins because they are cheap, get burnt on eBay looking for a deal and are too fickle with their buying to actually form a real collection.
Seems to me that he is implying that one will get "burnt" by purchasing from an ebay auction. Unless he specifically means buying raw coins, I have to disagree with him. I have lost more money in this hobby from buying raw overgraded coins from a particular local B&M than I ever have buying my slabbed widget type coins off ebay.
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement. >>
But if I drive for over an hour to meet some pretentious dealer whose merchandise is out of line with reality, I get the same coin for $230.....unless I "grovel" and get him to give me a "deal" at $215. There is a real $35 difference between the 2 coins. And thats just sales price, lets not even fudge with the convienence issues. >>
I don't collect cents, but that coin don't look Red to me. >>
Lets see, PCGS had this coin in hand and three seperate pro graders all thought it was red. You saw one picture, and dont even collect cents, yet you say it doesnt look to be red. I wonder whose opinion I value more?
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement. >>
But if I drive for over an hour to meet some pretentious dealer whose merchandise is out of line with reality, I get the same coin for $230.....unless I "grovel" and get him to give me a "deal" at $215. There is a real $35 difference between the 2 coins. And thats just sales price, lets not even fudge with the convienence issues. >>
I don't collect cents, but that coin don't look Red to me. >>
Lets see, PCGS had this coin in hand and three seperate pro graders all thought it was red. You saw one picture, and dont even collect cents, yet you say it doesnt look to be red. I wonder whose opinion I value more? >>
Fair argument, but one that isn't going to convince collectors like me to buy your coins once you decide to sell them. We need to perceive the coin as being Red, like those pictured by Stacks and Heritage. If you want to take a chance on a coin like that, God bless you, but I think you are making a mistake. You are 33, so I'll probably be dead long before you decide to sell, but keep me in mind when that time comes. Are people fighting over your collection, or telling you thanks but no thanks? If it is the former, congratulation, if it is the latter, you'll know the importance of seeing a coin in hand before making a purchase. Or, at the very least, an image nicer than the one in that eBay listing.
Edited to ask... Honestly, does that coin look Red to you? Forget what PCGS says. Does it look like other cents graded Red that you have seen? Would you honestly claim that that coin deserves the same premium as one that is truely a vibrant, full Red coin?
<< <i>Seems to me that he is implying that one will get "burnt" by purchasing from an ebay auction. >>
There's a difference between "will get burnt" and "can get burnt". I still don't see where he specifically claimed the former, but if that's what you take from his post, I guess that's up to you.
Hey Timcoin....if you really are interested in seeing a large part of my collection, I welcome you to look at any or all 6 of my coin videos I made for youtube. Use the search box and type in "U.S. Type" and you should see the videos by me, geckster109. There is a decent mix of raw and slabbed. I bought only raw coins for my first couple years of collecting, then switched to slabbed coins the past 2 years. What you will see in the videos is the passion and plain ole fun I have had in putting together the collection thus far. What you wont see are the number of dollars that have gone into it. Many, many thousands. I take pride in my collection even though most of the coins are simple widgets. Im just a type collector on a modest budget who wants a fair shake, nothing more, nothing less. I hope you enjoy the videos if you choose to view them. Hell, maybe afterward, you can tell me if my collections is one that people would want, or one that nobody would want.
<< <i>you brought 1900 dollars for your hobby to spend..you should have spent it.... >>
I wish I could have. If I was a golfer instead of a coin collector, and I saw a set of fancy clubs for $1,900 at a trade show, but I knew I could get them for $1,600 through a different venue, my choice is easy. Im no stranger to paying above sheet and even above retail on a special coin like my flowing hair half....but I refuse to pad the pockets of pretentious dealers for common as dirt coins like a 1905 IHC in 64 red.
<< <i>Hey Timcoin....if you really are interested in seeing a large part of my collection, I welcome you to look at any or all 6 of my coin videos I made for youtube. Use the search box and type in "U.S. Type" and you should see the videos by me, geckster109. There is a decent mix of raw and slabbed. I bought only raw coins for my first couple years of collecting, then switched to slabbed coins the past 2 years. What you will see in the videos is the passion and plain ole fun I have had in putting together the collection thus far. What you wont see are the number of dollars that have gone into it. Many, many thousands. I take pride in my collection even though most of the coins are simple widgets. Im just a type collector on a modest budget who wants a fair shake, nothing more, nothing less. I hope you enjoy the videos if you choose to view them. Hell, maybe afterward, you can tell me if my collections is one that people would want, or one that nobody would want. >>
Just watched the one on gold. I like it. Very nice Saint.
<< <i> Im no stranger to paying above sheet and even above retail on a special coin like my flowing hair half....but I refuse to pad the pockets of pretentious dealers for common as dirt coins like a 1905 IHC in 64 red. >>
Sounds like you've got it all figured out. Good job!
<< <i>Hey Timcoin....if you really are interested in seeing a large part of my collection, I welcome you to look at any or all 6 of my coin videos I made for youtube. Use the search box and type in "U.S. Type" and you should see the videos by me, geckster109. There is a decent mix of raw and slabbed. I bought only raw coins for my first couple years of collecting, then switched to slabbed coins the past 2 years. What you will see in the videos is the passion and plain ole fun I have had in putting together the collection thus far. What you wont see are the number of dollars that have gone into it. Many, many thousands. I take pride in my collection even though most of the coins are simple widgets. Im just a type collector on a modest budget who wants a fair shake, nothing more, nothing less. I hope you enjoy the videos if you choose to view them. Hell, maybe afterward, you can tell me if my collections is one that people would want, or one that nobody would want. >>
Just watched the one on gold. I like it. Very nice Saint. >>
Thanks. I'd like to think that my videos are among the finest on all of youtube (Edited to add: as far as coin collections)...not based on content alone, but rather based on quality of the production itself. If you liked the 12 piece gold type set, you might enjoy the others as well. Cant remember off hand if I included the story of the Saint in the video, but I actually bought that coin while my wife was in labor! Dont worry, she was (according to the doctor) "at least 8 hours from delivering", and she was knocked out from some pain killer they dripped into her IV. So why go buy a coin at that time? I had it predetermined in my mind that I would buy the most beautiful coin ever made on the most beautiful day of my life. It just so happened that my son turned out to be the most beautiful baby boy in the world as well. He is 11 months old now.
Gecko- I hear your frustrations but you need to relax and let it roll off you. Take up meditation, yoga, or some such activity. Walking away from a coin show empty handed because you could not come to terms on a price... well that is no reason to swear them off. It happens.
half cents and the prices you quote- I collect these primarily and I couldnt for the life of me tell you what the sheet is on these right now. I have "the sheet", but the reality is, as others have probably alluded to is, it is not a realistic pricing tool if you really expect to walk away with a decent coin. For the dogs, the sluff, and the behind the pulse of the market folks, the sheet might be a tool. However for pq and average for the grade coins it's not. At least in my experiences. Forget PQ, I am happy to buy even "average" half cents at somewhere slightly north of grey sheet- bring them on I will take them all.
If you are basing your ability to snag stuff off ebay at sheet, in particular half cents, then you should proceed cautiously.Ebay is swarming with swill as far as half cents go.
you compared a XF45 to another coin slabbed au and then comapred price and this and that to determine that the dealer was way off based on the sheet. Are you sure you know what you were looking at aside from the grades posted on the slab in terms of making an assessment of value? I dont mean that as an insult because it is not. Was there a die state factored in? was the strike or lack of marks a factor, was the color a factor original or recolor, dark or chocolate. These are all issues in pricing this stuff beyond what the slab factory gives as a grade and what that coloumn in the greysheet indicates. Give me a PQ xf over a mediocre AU any day of the week and I will happily pay strong!!
The 1829 you display- I would guess its in ngc plasitc and probably a 62 grade attached to it. Technically the coin is not MS it has wear. It has a fair amount of detracting spotting. Not a great looking coin, not a real bad looking coin. But that is what surfaces in NGC plastic more often than not. If you picked it up on ebay for somewhere near sheet I would say you did well, but probably not "as well" as you might be thinking.
As for the widget indian cent- well, sounds like you should have excused yourself politely and sought out another dealer more willing to work with greysheet on the price. Some dealers just are reluctant to work with greysheet and the public, they feel that is a price tool reserved for fellow dealers.
you should always leave a coin show happy. Go to the next one, enjoy yourself whether you walk out with something or not. Stop on the way home and get yourself an ice cream cone, and think back about those cool stella's you got to look at it.....enjoy yourself.
Interesting that the OP cannot or will not elaborate on the argument that Ebay does not make a market for coins; that all coins graded in the same number holders (even PCGS) are not equal; and that GS is not the end all/ be all price list. He keeps falling back on "I can get it cheaper on Ebay", without addressing the counterpoints.
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points.
Comments
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Do they have a forum he could go to?
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> Is every single coin at every single show considered PQ guys??? >>
from what i read here most every coin is ordinary stuff with one in a thousand being above the ordinary level. it is PQ when selling and a ordinary widget when buying for dealers ;-) gecko, you are trying to buy in a heated coin market where dealers know they have collectors right where they want them. they know collectors want to add coins and you are a captive audience at that point. imagine you came to them! hoho, they must enjoy that. >>
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, fc. I agree with many of your setiments. The OP's points are well taken... that is if one lived in a communist country where a third party could compel an owner to sell at a fixed price. In an open market, you can beatch all you want, but the ultimate choice is to negotiate well or walk away. Walking away mad is pointless...
Indiancent.com here shows that he will sell a properly graded 1905 RD MS64 in PCGS (or NGC) plastic for $275. Rick is a market maker in IHC's - Greysheet isn't. His buy price, sight seen and good for the grade, is 75% or more of his sell price. That means that at minimum he will pay $206 and change for the coin - and in my experience, he has ALWAYS paid more, often WAY more.
About the only thing I've found the sheet good for is to set up values for trading parameters on widgets - that, and to cherrypick the he!! out of a couple of dealers that live by the sheet, buy OR sell. This is a great thread; though the issue comes up often you really get a chance to see where people stand. As you might tell, I'm mostly on the side of free markets. >>
Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Where did I say sight unseen? >>
Well if you buy it off the website for $275, its considered sight unseen. Same as buying any coin off ebay, or any website. >>
Have you ever actually bought a coin from a specialist dealer that makes a market?
I'll guarantee you that I can sell back the majority of the coins that I have bought from Rick for between what I paid and a profit.
Equating Ebay and buying from someone like Rick, even off of his website on full approval reflects pure ignorance, plain and simple.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>You could always take up deer hunting!!
Do they have a forum he could go to?
Steve >>
Sorry Gecko, but I gotta say
<< <i>Point well taken. Just 2 quick points in retort. First, and most important, why should I pay dealer "X" at a coin show that I paid gas for to get to, and ate out lunch at $230 for the same coin I can order at
home in my underwear with a single click for $180? Secondly, and not as important, if I was selling this coin to this dealer, would he give me full sheet bid of $150 for it? Maybe, but probably somewhat less than that. But even if he did give me full sheet bid of $150, and sold it to the next joe for $200, thats a tidy profit margin for ANY business. >>
That $50 is a markup, not a profit. The gas and food is a wash because the dealer is buying the same -- and for that you get face-to-face contact with other enthusiasts who are mostly dressed up beyond just their undies
If you want to sell coins and you don't think bid is fair, consider consigning. I've sold my mistakes at bid and shrugged it off as a learning experience, and sold a couple of PQ coins at much, much more than bid by consigning.
<< <i>First, and most important, why should I pay dealer "X" at a coin show that I paid gas for to get to, and ate out lunch at $230 for the same coin I can order at home in my underwear with a single click for $180? >>
I don't think there's anybody here who has said you should. If you don't like the dealer's price, you don't have to buy the coin. The flip side of this is that the dealer is under no obligation to make coins available to you at the price you want to pay.
<< <i>Secondly, and not as important, if I was selling this coin to this dealer, would he give me full sheet bid of $150 for it? Maybe, but probably somewhat less than that. But even if he did give me full sheet bid of $150, and sold it to the next joe for $200, thats a tidy profit margin for ANY business. >>
The greysheet doesn't buy or sell coins- they sell a price guide. It's up to each individual to decide how to use the information they provide. And as far as profit margins are concerned- as a buyer, you're looking to buy coins as cheaply as possible, so it seems only reasonable to conclude that sellers are going to try to get as much for them as they can.
Economic markets soon sift out those who cannot make a market or who are unreasonable. My only question would be, does the dealer still have these coins for sale? With all of the web sites, it might be simple to check. If he got his price from someone else, then it was just the market at work. It is common knowledge that the "sheet" is often out of date in many areas and some use it and some dont. Either way, no one is REQUIRED to use it as the basis for their pricing.
I am sorry you feel abused, but this is how it is. I suspect the prices become more flexible as the show wears on and the availability of desirable coins goes down. Friday afternoon at the Baltimore shows have been good to me and I have passed on some coins I thought were over priced and bought some that I believed were fairly priced. It is the nature of shows. Yes, I have left with almost all the money I have brought a couple of times when I was looking for a very specific coin or two, but I still had a GREAT time.
Good luck in the future
I really disagree with your view in connection with coin shows. First, its okay not to buy a coin because one believes it is overpriced. Further, it is okay to return home without buying a coin.
Coin shows serve multiple purposes. One can learn by looking at coins, sharpen grading skills, learn alittle more about a series from someone that just may know more. It also give one the chance to ask questions not just to dealers, but other collectors. My favorite is looking for what I might like because its not just about coins, its about the design, art and history that makes this the hobby it is. Usually at shows one will make the best contacts to develop a better appreciation of the hobby...
Give it another chance and choose not to live or die by the greysheet...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Thats fine and good, but I can link you to ebay's completed listings that show five (5) common date indian head cents in PCGS 64RD that all closed at or below $203 in the past 2 weeks. I didnt even look for NGC 64 reds, but imagine there are a few of them under $203 as well. So why would anyone pay that $275 that you referenced for a sight unseen indian in 64 red? >>
Okay, I see four of the five here. I also see two dozen more that closed from the high $200s up through $1000. I'm sure not all of those are common dates, but I'll gladly bet that most of these common dates in PCGS MS64 RD go to happy buyers for $275.
You must realize that it is not reasonable to compare ebay shopping to a show where dealers are there to meet with you, and who paid for that opportunity with considerable money and time well over an entire weekend. >>
Point well taken. Just 2 quick points in retort. First, and most important, why should I pay dealer "X" at a coin show that I paid gas for to get to, and ate out lunch at $230 for the same coin I can order at home in my underwear with a single click for $180? Secondly, and not as important, if I was selling this coin to this dealer, would he give me full sheet bid of $150 for it? Maybe, but probably somewhat less than that. But even if he did give me full sheet bid of $150, and sold it to the next joe for $200, thats a tidy profit margin for ANY business. >>
25% margin on cost is a tidy margin? On what strange business planet do you reside, anyway?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
Grade this coin off this image:
Sweet
Herb
above posts apply to dealers beating up on each other on sheet pricing
then using the same 'tactics' on the collector/investor?
If most of what one buys is at near sheet bid levels, and you haven't sold anything to check on your grading skills, there could be a costly lesson that follows.
roadrunner
As to graysheet bid prices, even a fairly new dealer quickly learns he could be a millionaire in a month if he could only buy coins at bid - and I'm not talking about just picking out the rare & esoteric stuff.
It never ceases to amaze me how some coin collectors have a disconnect between the fact that because it is a 'hobby' to them that the dealer who is there for them day in & day out should just be doing everything at cost with no regard to the fact that this is his/her profession and they need to earn a living to provide for their families and their own 'hobby' as well.
As to your pictured ebay coins consider this......it is possible to get a 'steal' or bargain now & then just from the sheer amount of product that is up for sale there as no one I know has time to check and follow every listing. Perhaps they were from a fellow collector who didn't have access to a good dealer to sell them to or went to a dealer who did indeed try to rip them off. I'll tell you this though - I find it impossible to believe you could take those coins to a show like Central States, Long Beach or Baltimore and NOT be able to find more than a few dealers there who would happily pay bid for them before you left.
Next time sir please stop and take the time to think before going off on a silly rant like that.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I can't wait to go to a few more and find more dealers who treat me fairly and take the time to talk about the coins I'm interested in.
I thought it was a given that special coins were valued more than Greysheet pricing.I guess it's dummies like me who keep the lights on.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>I love shows.
I can't wait to go to a few more and find more dealers who treat me fairly and take the time to talk about the coins I'm interested in.
I thought it was a given that special coins were valued more than Greysheet pricing.I guess it's dummies like me who keep the lights on. >>
Is a common date IHC in 64 red a "special" coin? And I DID value it more than sheet....I valued it at 125% of sheet in fact.
Look what I paid for this POS.
Anybody know what this is?
Ray
The first hammered for $240, which is about $270 with juice and shipping:
The second hammered for $190, about $225 to take home, not as nice as the first
So the $230 dealer ask, lowered to $215 best price, was not out of line. Grey sheet price for any decent looking half cent, or any really nice full red Indians, and a long list of other coins is going to be a non-starter. Widget or non-widget.
The other issue is that a percentage of Ebay items go unsold because the starting price, or the reserve is too high for the market at the moment. Same deal at a show. A percentage will go unsold or the dealer knows they have customers coming later that may want them at the high price. Another possibility is that the dealer smelled money on the customer, sized him up and figured the customer to be a newbie. Worth taking a shot with a full retail price, for the profit. Dealers size up customers all the time, and that is a big part of how they stay in business.
One other point, that most dealers will work a better deal for known customers. Someone walking in off the street usually pays more to buy, and gets less when they sell, than a good steady customer. Some dealers sell at full retail price. Try and buy at sheet price from one of them, and you are likely going to be asked to politely move on. Same as on Ebay where some start their bids very high, or have a high buy it now, but rarely sell anything.
<< <i>Do like I do and pay huge premiums for crappy coins.
Look what I paid for this POS.
Anybody know what this is?
Ray >>
Its the huge O....nice pick up at that price!
As others have pointed out this is not profit. Take into to consideration the overhead of being a seller and add into the mix the dealer's time (I really don't know anyone that wants to be paid nothing per hour whether as an employee or self employed) . Finally being self employed the dealer gets to contribute to the tax coffers of both state and federal governments.
I'm not a dealer myself, but have been self employed these past twenty years and I pay a tad over 51% of my income to taxes, good ol social security takes a nice 15% all by itself.
So in retro spec perhaps you are correct $50 is not really the approriate amount, should be some higher figure when all said and done.
<< <i>Do like I do and pay huge premiums for crappy coins.
Look what I paid for this POS.
Anybody know what this is?
Ray >>
huge O daddio
<< <i>Anyone buying his or her collection off of ebay or using ebay as a market "maker," will wake up one day to be quite disillusioned. About the only exception are slabbed widgets or slabbed generic gold. Most don't vary a whole lot from a base price.
If most of what one buys is at near sheet bid levels, and you haven't sold anything to check on your grading skills, there could be a costly lesson that follows.
roadrunner >>
The absolute truth. Nice coins don't sell for bargain prices. Coins with serious investment potential never sell at a discount or anywhere near greysheet bid. Coins that will drive a bidding war in the future due to overall eye appeal are had for significant premiums. I shouldn't make an absolute statement of never, as there are always the stories anyone who's been doing this for a while can tell, but they are by far the exceptions. The greysheet is for widgets. Widgets aren't bad but they are still widgets.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>
<< <i>Do like I do and pay huge premiums for crappy coins.
Look what I paid for this POS.
Anybody know what this is?
Ray >>
Its the huge O....nice pick up at that price! >>
No it's not. It's at least 10 times rarer than the Huge O.
Ray
<< <i>Here are two Indian cents PCGS 64 RD from Teletrade
The first hammered for $240, which is about $270 with juice and shipping:
The second hammered for $190, about $225 to take home, not as nice as the first
So the $230 dealer ask, lowered to $215 best price, was not out of line. Grey sheet price for any decent looking half cent, or any really nice full red Indians, and a long list of other coins is going to be a non-starter. Widget or non-widget.
The other issue is that a percentage of Ebay items go unsold because the starting price, or the reserve is too high for the market at the moment. Same deal at a show. A percentage will go unsold or the dealer knows they have customers coming later that may want them at the high price. Another possibility is that the dealer smelled money on the customer, sized him up and figured the customer to be a newbie. Worth taking a shot with a full retail price, for the profit. Dealers size up customers all the time, and that is a big part of how they stay in business.
One other point, that most dealers will work a better deal for known customers. Someone walking in off the street usually pays more to buy, and gets less when they sell, than a good steady customer. Some dealers sell at full retail price. Try and buy at sheet price from one of them, and you are likely going to be asked to politely move on. Same as on Ebay where some start their bids very high, or have a high buy it now, but rarely sell anything. >>
Are there any recent teletrade 64 reds that sold for $200 or less WITH the juice? Or did you just pick out the two highest closers among the common dates (one with Rick's sticker to boot
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Do like I do and pay huge premiums for crappy coins.
Look what I paid for this POS.
Anybody know what this is?
Ray >>
Its the huge O....nice pick up at that price! >>
No it's not. It's at least 10 times rarer than the Huge O.
Ray >>
doh! i am stumped then. how about fake? that would make it a rare
tough coin to find ;-)
i am curious now!
<< <i>
<< <i>Anyone buying his or her collection off of ebay or using ebay as a market "maker," will wake up one day to be quite disillusioned. About the only exception are slabbed widgets or slabbed generic gold. Most don't vary a whole lot from a base price.
If most of what one buys is at near sheet bid levels, and you haven't sold anything to check on your grading skills, there could be a costly lesson that follows.
roadrunner >>
The absolute truth. Nice coins don't sell for bargain prices. Coins with serious investment potential never sell at a discount or anywhere near greysheet bid. Coins that will drive a bidding war in the future due to overall eye appeal are had for significant premiums. I shouldn't make an absolute statement of never, as there are always the stories anyone who's been doing this for a while can tell, but they are by far the exceptions. The greysheet is for widgets. Widgets aren't bad but they are still widgets. >>
Take a look at my sigline that i've had for the 6 months I have been here. Now take a guess at what I collect.
<< <i>gecko109,
I was in a Vegas at a nice shop and came across an 1870-CC Seated Dollar - PCGS XF45. Sheet has these, and forgive me I dont have it in front of me, at about $1700. So, I ask to see it and, it was very nice-I would even go so far as to say that it might undergraded. But, when I look at the price and this guy has it at over $4700!!!!!
Wow, I literally looked several times at the price to make sure I was seeing correctly! Now, as others have said I can understand that things that are hard to come by and are nice for the grade, that you cannot expect to pay sheet. However, at nearly 3x sheet I thought this was ridiculous. Needless to say I passed and went on my way.
I also consider myself an avid collector so I feel your pain. >>
What does the coin sheet for in AU?
With all due repect for any collector out there, to buy nice attractive coins, you have to pay for them. eBay is not a market and the stuff that sells there does not dictate what anything is worth. As a specialist market-maker I have to balance my buy price with the sell price based on past sales and the difficulty in replacing what I sell. If I raise my sell price, it means I am having to pay more. The market today is super-heated, so the cost of replacement is very high.
As an astute buyer, you can make money knowing that I am buying MS-64RD's for $205 (or more). Just learn how to grade and try and buy the coins for $150 and send them to me. I wish you would, I would make my job much, much easier.
As a collector building a collection, if you bought all your MS64RD's from me at $250 last year, I bet you would not lose a cent in selling them back to me. Why, because as a valued customer, I feel like you should be treated with the utmost respect and frankly, I need the coins.
Coin collecting should be fun, not a for-profit endeavor. If you have fun and break even you are ahead, really. If you make a killing, great. The people who lose are the ones who are trying to be too smart. They buy overgraded coins because they are cheap, get burnt on eBay looking for a deal and are too fickle with their buying to actually form a real collection.
I personally cannot think of a better, more efficient collector market than coins.
- Baseball cards
- Stamps
- Comic books
- Vinyl Records
- You name it...
For anyone who thinks a coin is over-priced, there is a simple question to ask the seller: "Where did you arrive at that price"
For the record, my PNG day was very good. I bought a ton of great stuff, attractively priced too.
Wondercoin
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement.
<< <i>I bought a lovely finest known type coin out of the Bowers sale that has a (Retail) PCGS Price Guide value of under $9,000 and it cost me over $27,500. More than triple guide - let alone 25% or 33% premiums. If you want beautiful coins, sometimes that is what it takes.
Wondercoin >>
You are talking about a top pop, im talking about a common date 64 red indian. Just a tad different scenario here. And Rick, would you like that link to the 5 common date PCGS 64 red indians that all closed for at or less than $203 in the past 2 weeks? Unless PCGS is really just blowing the grades on those, it seems to me like they are attractive deals. Its also very unfair Rick to assume that every slabbed coin sold on ebay is somehow subpar, or even immune to being PQ.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Are these "nice" coins? All of these were bought off ebay at or slightly (5% or less) above CDN sheet.
>>
Most collectors would reject all of these.
They are all below average in eye appeal, with weak strikes, gouges, spots and stains.
But there are always buyers looking only for the grade on the slab and a cheap price. >>
I wouldn't reject them. Maybe the half cent, but I think they are all very nice type coins. I'd be proud to have any of them in my type set!
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
Rick excellent suggestion (I may use that line in the future) and excellent post all around.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Do like I do and pay huge premiums for crappy coins.
Look what I paid for this POS.
Anybody know what this is?
Ray >>
Its the huge O....nice pick up at that price! >>
No it's not. It's at least 10 times rarer than the Huge O.
Ray >>
doh! i am stumped then. how about fake? that would make it a rare
tough coin to find ;-)
i am curious now! >>
It's the "crumbled die" 1854-O. Only a couple a year will come across Ebay.
I've been collecting this series for 20 years and this makes 3 that I have been able to aquire.
Ray
<< <i>
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement. >>
All depends on the market.....from the comfort of my home with a few click of the mouse, the "market" bears this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1907-Indian-Cent-PCGS-MS-64-Red-Beautiful-Coin_W0QQitemZ150231129315QQihZ005QQcategoryZ41086QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
But if I drive for over an hour to meet some pretentious dealer whose merchandise is out of line with reality, I get the same coin for $230.....unless I "grovel" and get him to give me a "deal" at $215. There is a real $35 difference between the 2 coins. And thats just sales price, lets not even fudge with the convienence issues.
<< <i>Its also very unfair Rick to assume that every slabbed coin sold on ebay is somehow subpar, or even immune to being PQ. >>
It doesn't appear to me that Rick assumed any such thing.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement. >>
All depends on the market.....from the comfort of my home with a few click of the mouse, the "market" bears this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1907-Indian-Cent-PCGS-MS-64-Red-Beautiful-Coin_W0QQitemZ150231129315QQihZ005QQcategoryZ41086QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
But if I drive for over an hour to meet some pretentious dealer whose merchandise is out of line with reality, I get the same coin for $230.....unless I "grovel" and get him to give me a "deal" at $215. There is a real $35 difference between the 2 coins. And thats just sales price, lets not even fudge with the convienence issues.
I don't collect cents, but that coin don't look Red to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>Its also very unfair Rick to assume that every slabbed coin sold on ebay is somehow subpar, or even immune to being PQ. >>
It doesn't appear to me that Rick assumed any such thing. >>
The people who lose are the ones who are trying to be too smart. They buy overgraded coins because they are cheap, get burnt on eBay looking for a deal and are too fickle with their buying to actually form a real collection.
Seems to me that he is implying that one will get "burnt" by purchasing from an ebay auction. Unless he specifically means buying raw coins, I have to disagree with him. I have lost more money in this hobby from buying raw overgraded coins from a particular local B&M than I ever have buying my slabbed widget type coins off ebay.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement. >>
All depends on the market.....from the comfort of my home with a few click of the mouse, the "market" bears this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1907-Indian-Cent-PCGS-MS-64-Red-Beautiful-Coin_W0QQitemZ150231129315QQihZ005QQcategoryZ41086QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
But if I drive for over an hour to meet some pretentious dealer whose merchandise is out of line with reality, I get the same coin for $230.....unless I "grovel" and get him to give me a "deal" at $215. There is a real $35 difference between the 2 coins. And thats just sales price, lets not even fudge with the convienence issues.
I don't collect cents, but that coin don't look Red to me. >>
Lets see, PCGS had this coin in hand and three seperate pro graders all thought it was red. You saw one picture, and dont even collect cents, yet you say it doesnt look to be red. I wonder whose opinion I value more?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The greysheet is only a guide to prices. And maybe its usefulness in that regard is limited even more due to the fact that it gets used in ways not intended by the publisher.
A seller has every right to ask whatever he wants for a coin. And a buyer has every right to offer whatever he wants for a coin. Neither party (whether collector or dealer) has an obligation to buy or sell for any particular amount, regardless of what is printed in the greysheet. >>
Thank you for the Economics 101 lession. Doesn't anyone here remember the simple economics lession about "what the market will bear"? I swear, I will give $2,500 to whichever Presidential candidate says they will make Economics a manditory four year high school requirement. >>
All depends on the market.....from the comfort of my home with a few click of the mouse, the "market" bears this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1907-Indian-Cent-PCGS-MS-64-Red-Beautiful-Coin_W0QQitemZ150231129315QQihZ005QQcategoryZ41086QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
But if I drive for over an hour to meet some pretentious dealer whose merchandise is out of line with reality, I get the same coin for $230.....unless I "grovel" and get him to give me a "deal" at $215. There is a real $35 difference between the 2 coins. And thats just sales price, lets not even fudge with the convienence issues.
I don't collect cents, but that coin don't look Red to me. >>
Lets see, PCGS had this coin in hand and three seperate pro graders all thought it was red. You saw one picture, and dont even collect cents, yet you say it doesnt look to be red. I wonder whose opinion I value more? >>
Fair argument, but one that isn't going to convince collectors like me to buy your coins once you decide to sell them. We need to perceive the coin as being Red, like those pictured by Stacks and Heritage. If you want to take a chance on a coin like that, God bless you, but I think you are making a mistake. You are 33, so I'll probably be dead long before you decide to sell, but keep me in mind when that time comes. Are people fighting over your collection, or telling you thanks but no thanks? If it is the former, congratulation, if it is the latter, you'll know the importance of seeing a coin in hand before making a purchase. Or, at the very least, an image nicer than the one in that eBay listing.
Edited to ask... Honestly, does that coin look Red to you? Forget what PCGS says. Does it look like other cents graded Red that you have seen? Would you honestly claim that that coin deserves the same premium as one that is truely a vibrant, full Red coin?
<< <i>Seems to me that he is implying that one will get "burnt" by purchasing from an ebay auction. >>
There's a difference between "will get burnt" and "can get burnt". I still don't see where he specifically claimed the former, but if that's what you take from his post, I guess that's up to you.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>you brought 1900 dollars for your hobby to spend..you should have spent it.... >>
I wish I could have. If I was a golfer instead of a coin collector, and I saw a set of fancy clubs for $1,900 at a trade show, but I knew I could get them for $1,600 through a different venue, my choice is easy. Im no stranger to paying above sheet and even above retail on a special coin like my flowing hair half....but I refuse to pad the pockets of pretentious dealers for common as dirt coins like a 1905 IHC in 64 red.
<< <i>Hey Timcoin....if you really are interested in seeing a large part of my collection, I welcome you to look at any or all 6 of my coin videos I made for youtube. Use the search box and type in "U.S. Type" and you should see the videos by me, geckster109. There is a decent mix of raw and slabbed. I bought only raw coins for my first couple years of collecting, then switched to slabbed coins the past 2 years. What you will see in the videos is the passion and plain ole fun I have had in putting together the collection thus far. What you wont see are the number of dollars that have gone into it. Many, many thousands. I take pride in my collection even though most of the coins are simple widgets. Im just a type collector on a modest budget who wants a fair shake, nothing more, nothing less. I hope you enjoy the videos if you choose to view them. Hell, maybe afterward, you can tell me if my collections is one that people would want, or one that nobody would want. >>
Just watched the one on gold. I like it. Very nice Saint.
<< <i> Im no stranger to paying above sheet and even above retail on a special coin like my flowing hair half....but I refuse to pad the pockets of pretentious dealers for common as dirt coins like a 1905 IHC in 64 red. >>
Sounds like you've got it all figured out. Good job!
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey Timcoin....if you really are interested in seeing a large part of my collection, I welcome you to look at any or all 6 of my coin videos I made for youtube. Use the search box and type in "U.S. Type" and you should see the videos by me, geckster109. There is a decent mix of raw and slabbed. I bought only raw coins for my first couple years of collecting, then switched to slabbed coins the past 2 years. What you will see in the videos is the passion and plain ole fun I have had in putting together the collection thus far. What you wont see are the number of dollars that have gone into it. Many, many thousands. I take pride in my collection even though most of the coins are simple widgets. Im just a type collector on a modest budget who wants a fair shake, nothing more, nothing less. I hope you enjoy the videos if you choose to view them. Hell, maybe afterward, you can tell me if my collections is one that people would want, or one that nobody would want. >>
Just watched the one on gold. I like it. Very nice Saint. >>
Thanks. I'd like to think that my videos are among the finest on all of youtube (Edited to add: as far as coin collections)...not based on content alone, but rather based on quality of the production itself. If you liked the 12 piece gold type set, you might enjoy the others as well. Cant remember off hand if I included the story of the Saint in the video, but I actually bought that coin while my wife was in labor! Dont worry, she was (according to the doctor) "at least 8 hours from delivering", and she was knocked out from some pain killer they dripped into her IV. So why go buy a coin at that time? I had it predetermined in my mind that I would buy the most beautiful coin ever made on the most beautiful day of my life. It just so happened that my son turned out to be the most beautiful baby boy in the world as well.
half cents and the prices you quote- I collect these primarily and I couldnt for the life of me tell you what the sheet is on these right now. I have "the sheet", but the reality is, as others have probably alluded to is, it is not a realistic pricing tool if you really expect to walk away with a decent coin. For the dogs, the sluff, and the behind the pulse of the market folks, the sheet might be a tool. However for pq and average for the grade coins it's not. At least in my experiences. Forget PQ, I am happy to buy even "average" half cents at somewhere slightly north of grey sheet- bring them on I will take them all.
If you are basing your ability to snag stuff off ebay at sheet, in particular half cents, then you should proceed cautiously.Ebay is swarming with swill as far as half cents go.
you compared a XF45 to another coin slabbed au and then comapred price and this and that to determine that the dealer was way off based on the sheet. Are you sure you know what you were looking at aside from the grades posted on the slab in terms of making an assessment of value? I dont mean that as an insult because it is not. Was there a die state factored in? was the strike or lack of marks a factor, was the color a factor original or recolor, dark or chocolate. These are all issues in pricing this stuff beyond what the slab factory gives as a grade and what that coloumn in the greysheet indicates. Give me a PQ xf over a mediocre AU any day of the week and I will happily pay strong!!
The 1829 you display- I would guess its in ngc plasitc and probably a 62 grade attached to it. Technically the coin is not MS it has wear. It has a fair amount of detracting spotting. Not a great looking coin, not a real bad looking coin. But that is what surfaces in NGC plastic more often than not. If you picked it up on ebay for somewhere near sheet I would say you did well, but probably not "as well" as you might be thinking.
As for the widget indian cent- well, sounds like you should have excused yourself politely and sought out another dealer more willing to work with greysheet on the price. Some dealers just are reluctant to work with greysheet and the public, they feel that is a price tool reserved for fellow dealers.
you should always leave a coin show happy. Go to the next one, enjoy yourself whether you walk out with something or not. Stop on the way home and get yourself an ice cream cone, and think back about those cool stella's you got to look at it.....enjoy yourself.
so when is the next show in your town?
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1