Any remotely interesting US coin is very expensive and that's just the way it is. I started looking around the darkside and there's plenty of historic and beautifull coins that are cheap. I bought a 1915 Revolutionary Mexican peso for under a hundred dollars. A US coin with that historical significance would be at least 100 times that price.
<< <i>Interesting that the OP cannot or will not elaborate on the argument that Ebay does not make a market for coins; that all coins graded in the same number holders (even PCGS) are not equal; and that GS is not the end all/ be all price list. He keeps falling back on "I can get it cheaper on Ebay", without addressing the counterpoints.
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points. >>
While ebay does not "make a market" (hype and imagination make markets) for coins, it DOES provide a marketplace to purchase coins. I will concede to you that not all PCGS MS64 RD Indians are of equal quality. But you MUST concede to me that not every coin at a major show is PQ for the grade just cuz it sits in so and so's case. I have a great story similar to my experience today. For a LONG time, I had wanted a Vermont half. I decided on a 64 as my goal because 62-64 have a tiny difference in price, but a 65 is about double the price of a 64. I had a dealer at a local show push a raw Vermont on me for a week (earlier in the week I saw it in his shop). He swore up and down it was 64 all day long. He wanted above sheet on it, at the time CDN had it at $290, he was asking $330 firm. After contemplating it deeply, I passed on it. Two weeks later, I found this PCGS 64 Vermont on ebay, and snagged it for $255. So again, although smoke and mirrors "make a market" (think first strikes), ebay provides a market. Its a market that cuts the greedy middleman, also known as the dealer.
<< <i>Interesting that the OP cannot or will not elaborate on the argument that Ebay does not make a market for coins; that all coins graded in the same number holders (even PCGS) are not equal; and that GS is not the end all/ be all price list. He keeps falling back on "I can get it cheaper on Ebay", without addressing the counterpoints.
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points. >>
A big "so what" to a coin in the same grade that sells for $180 plus $7 shipping. The two coins that I linked at the same grade from Teletrade auctioned at $225 and $270. Nice full Red Indian cents aren't widgets, not at greysheet price they aren't. Go to any show and try to find them at sheet prices and see how many a person can buy.
Buy the lower priced ones if that is what a person likes. Some dealers at shows will have them, though a person may have to go to more than one show and some of the coins will be nicer than others. Some dealers won't EVER have coins for sale to new retail customers at grey sheet. After a while, a person figures it out.
<< <i>Interesting that the OP cannot or will not elaborate on the argument that Ebay does not make a market for coins; that all coins graded in the same number holders (even PCGS) are not equal; and that GS is not the end all/ be all price list. He keeps falling back on "I can get it cheaper on Ebay", without addressing the counterpoints.
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points. >>
A big "so what" to a coin in the same grade that sells for $180 plus $7 shipping. The two coins that I linked at the same grade from Teletrade auctioned at $225 and $270. Nice full Red Indian cents aren't widgets, not at greysheet price they aren't. Go to any show and try to find them at sheet prices and see how many a person can buy.
Buy the lower priced ones if that is what a person likes. Some dealers at shows will have them, though a person may have to go to more than one show and some of the coins will be nicer than others. Some dealers won't EVER have coins for sale to new retail customers at grey sheet. After a while, a person figures it out. >>
If you do not think a common date indian cent in 64 red is a widget, then you have no idea what a widget is.
Edited to add: I did not want the coin at sheet, I offered 125% of sheet ask.
<< <i>Interesting that the OP cannot or will not elaborate on the argument that Ebay does not make a market for coins; that all coins graded in the same number holders (even PCGS) are not equal; and that GS is not the end all/ be all price list. He keeps falling back on "I can get it cheaper on Ebay", without addressing the counterpoints.
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points. >>
While ebay does not "make a market" (hype and imagination make markets) for coins, it DOES provide a marketplace to purchase coins. I will concede to you that not all PCGS MS64 RD Indians are of equal quality. But you MUST concede to me that not every coin at a major show is PQ for the grade just cuz it sits in so and so's case. I have a great story similar to my experience today. For a LONG time, I had wanted a Vermont half. I decided on a 64 as my goal because 62-64 have a tiny difference in price, but a 65 is about double the price of a 64. I had a dealer at a local show push a raw Vermont on me for a week (earlier in the week I saw it in his shop). He swore up and down it was 64 all day long. He wanted above sheet on it, at the time CDN had it at $290, he was asking $330 firm. After contemplating it deeply, I passed on it. Two weeks later, I found this PCGS 64 Vermont on ebay, and snagged it for $255. So again, although smoke and mirrors "make a market" (think first strikes), ebay provides a market. Its a market that cuts the greedy middleman, also known as the dealer.
>>
that might not be the best choice to display a good buy on ebay gecko. people are going to say it has spots on it that are distracting and thus people did not bid strongly on it!
ebay is a strange place. you win some and you lose some... but i think you could come up with a better example if you tried.
Gecko190- I am with you. While i do expect to pay over sheet for some items, not the common stuff. I have bought very little from the last 4 or 5 shows that i have gone to. Forget selling to dealers with slabs. I have had this pulled on me way to many times. Hi- would you be interested in this blank blank pcgs 65 coin? Dealer looks at it and says overgraded, it is a 63 and i can give you XX. So i pick up one of his PCGS blank blank 65's and he says undergaded and i have to have 66 plus money. LOL. I am sick of that. I am glad that i have a few local dealers that do not do me that way. I get good stuff for fair money on a 2 way street. Sometimes it just takes a while to get it. I am not a big spender, i never buy more than 2 to 3 thousand dollars a month for the last few years. I look at things different than most. If i had to bail in 6 months to a year can i get out of that 4 times sheet coin?? If the answer is yes or close i will buy, other wise no. I have to really want something to over pay big.
I was at the color of money show in houston 2 years ago and the big Standing Liberty Quarter man was there selling his book and coins. He had tubes of AU dates at 3 times greysheet. LOL, LOL That stuff is not hard to find and it was not because of head detail either.
As long as people are willing to over pay the dealers will wait for the money. It can change in a hurry though.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
I go to the shows to look and if i get lucky i can even buy something. Last time i was in Houston at the color of money show Anaconda coins gave me a half dozen coffee cups cause he did not want to carry them back. LOL. He has been one dealer to treat me right.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
For those coins that a dealer asked a premium price for, you have to ask yourself a few questions including "is this coin nicer than average?" If you answer is yes then the coin may be worth a premium. Remember that premium coins are always sold for over sheet (whatever that may be) and mediocre coins can be found for less than sheet.
Also remember this one important point when attending a coin show...at a coin show you have the chance to view and study all coins in person. It's something that is impossible to do when buying off of Ebay.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
A big "so what" to a coin in the same grade that sells for $180 plus $7 shipping. The two coins that I linked at the same grade from Teletrade auctioned at $225 and $270. Nice full Red Indian cents aren't widgets, not at greysheet price they aren't. Go to any show and try to find them at sheet prices and see how many a person can buy.
Buy the lower priced ones if that is what a person likes. Some dealers at shows will have them, though a person may have to go to more than one show and some of the coins will be nicer than others. Some dealers won't EVER have coins for sale to new retail customers at grey sheet. After a while, a person figures it out. >>
If you do not think a common date indian cent in 64 red is a widget, then you have no idea what a widget is.
Edited to add: I did not want the coin at sheet, I offered 125% of sheet ask. >>
A widget is something that a person will find ten or more of at every larger show, and/or find in under an hour on the Internet. It may be a widget coin with an unlimited budget, but not with the price constraint.
You proved the point that at the price you are willing to pay that it may not be a widget. You went to a fair sized show, looked around and came home empty. How many in that grade did you find? Or one grade lower or higher? How many have you found on the Internet since going to the show? I found two on Teletrade in the past 60 days and they sold much higher than you were willing to pay. The nicer one sold for over 50% more than your highest offer, over 70% over greysheet. The one you found on Ebay fits the price, but to some buyers may not fit the quality, or the established dealer (seller started Jan 2008). If you really want the coin and can't tell the difference, maybe go to RB or BN and then you'll find lots and lots. In nice red, they are hard to find, and usually command a premium if nice.
How many have you been offered from dealers with inventory since you started the thread? If the answer is that you found lots at the show at a good price, but they didn't meet your quality requirement, and also have lots of offers via PM, then I am wrong and admit as much. Since you came home empty and dealers with coins to sell aren't throwing them at you, maybe you are the one who is wrong? Is that possible?
I don't agree with much of what you have written - for example, equating market makers and first stikes makes zero sense - but I do respect that you have a position that you have taken. Time will tell how the market will treat your particular purchases...
At the end of the day, it's your money. Personally, an extra few bucks if the coin is solid doesn't come up on my radar. I'd rather like what I buy, and buy what I like.
I won't pile on as I have no problem with folks buying off Ebay and I have bought and sold many extremely nice coins on there. I will say I love shows and I almost always find something I like and I typically do coming away with some knowledge I didn't have before I went to the show.
Now here's my question to you gecko...
You just paid $144 dollars for a modern commem with a PCGS price gide value of $15 so I was quite suprised to see you have an issue with paying above sheet. Yes to be fair I know it's a toners and their are no price guides for toned coins....which is one of the things I like most about collecting them...I pay what I feel the coin is worth. It would seem with a few of your recent purchases that you do the same and I commend you for it.....but why get uptight about paying above greysheet when you shelled out crazy money for a super common commem?
<< <i>I won't pile on as I have no problem with folks buying off Ebay and I have bought and sold many extremely nice coins on there. I will say I love shows and I almost always find something I like and I typically do coming away with some knowledge I didn't have before I went to the show.
Now here's my question to you gecko...
You just paid $144 dollars for a modern commem with a PCGS price gide value of $15 so I was quite suprised to see you have an issue with paying above sheet. Yes to be fair I know it's a toners and their are no price guides for toned coins....which is one of the things I like most about collecting them...I pay what I feel the coin is worth. It would seem with a few of your recent purchases that you do the same and I commend you for it.....but why get uptight about paying above greysheet when you shelled out crazy money for a super common commem? >>
A super common commem? Try finding another with that color intensity in a PCGS slab. I could go to a thousand shows and not find one, literally! Just about EVERY show will have at least 1, if not multiples of a common date IHC in 64 red. I refuse to pay more than 125% of sheet for coins that I can find by the handful either on ebay, or at a show. I will however stretch on more esoteric, and rare items such as that washie commem.
There is more to be gained at shows than just purchasing coins... it seems that this discussion is really focused on buying side and where the greysheet fits in for collectors.
Unfortunately, this is a very short sided view
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Doesn't the fact that Rick Snow has said he will pay $205 for it wholesale suggest your retail offer of $200 was a bit low, in this market? Perhaps greysheet is a bit behind on these?
Really,at a show be prepared to spend retail,or close to it, for the nicest stuff. Leave your graysheet at home and take the latest copy of Coin Values with you.
If you manage to buy below Coin Values prices that's a good thing given that you know how to grade and can recognize quality when you see it.
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."
Dwight D. Eisenhower Speech in Washington, 16 Apr. 1953, in Public Papers of Presidents 1953 (1960) p. 182
<< <i>Doesn't the fact that Rick Snow has said he will pay $205 for it wholesale suggest your retail offer of $200 was a bit low, in this market? Perhaps greysheet is a bit behind on these? >>
No Gecko insists he can find them find them by the handful, there is no possibility that he is wrong. Even if a major dealer is offering 30% over sheet wholesale, and his offer is 25% over sheet. He expects dealers to sell their nice coins to him for a lower price, instead of going to Rick and getting a higher price (and no aggravation).
Maybe Gecko will start collecting better date Barber halves next, and there will be a 200 post thread about how dealers are charging outrageous prices for those.
<< Doesn't the fact that Rick Snow has said he will pay $205 for it wholesale suggest your retail offer of $200 was a bit low, in this market? Perhaps greysheet is a bit behind on these? >>
No Gecko insists he can find them find them by the handful, there is no possibility that he is wrong. Even if a major dealer is offering 30% over sheet wholesale, and his offer is 25% over sheet. He expects dealers to sell their nice coins to him for a lower price, instead of going to Rick and getting a higher price (and no aggravation).
It also sounds like Gecko wants his widgets in widget condition for the grade. I'm just not consistently reading or seeing much of a desire for anything more than the vaguely "nice." That's cool, but much different my experience; I wish I was willing to buy at least one in ten of the MS66 mercs and walkers I look at just so the dealers get something out of their gymnastics over their glass cases.
If that's not the case, Gecko, maybe it would help to ask yourself this question before buying: "Would I be pissed if I was offered Greysheet bid if I tried to sell this coin?" If the answer is yes, maybe you should put the Greysheet away. If not, well, maybe we're not really talking about high-end coins here.
It’s a mixed bag and everyone has to draw the line at the premium they will pay for quality. I recently started a thread entitled “just say no to higher coin prices” after leaving a show with my money in my pocket. I found two coins of outstanding quality for the grade and worthy of a significant premium over retail (let alone over bid), but I did not think it wise to pay 3x retail. Neither coin was rare (one was a scarcer variety) and I felt that there was very little likelihood of ever recovering a significant portion of the premium—at least not through a sale to a dealer.
On the other hand, I also walked out of two other shows feeling like a schnook for paying too much for the coins I bought. By too much in this case I mean about 20 to 30% above what lesser examples might sell for. However, I then researched the Heritage archives and found that both coins had just sold at premium prices -- presumably purchased by the dealers I bought them from. So the dealers stepped up and paid more for a better coin. In one case, the dealer actually paid too much and made little profit on the sale to me. The other dealer made about the expected 20%. Sure I could have saved some money buying sight unseen in the Heritage auctions, but (1) I have gotten burned doing that in the past, and (2) the Heritage pictures sucked so bad that I would have passed on both coins based on the photos.
By the way, I still would like to own the coins I passed on. They were great coins, and just because I could not justify paying the price asked at the time does not mean that someone else will not feel that the coins actually are a good value.
<< <i>I won't pile on as I have no problem with folks buying off Ebay and I have bought and sold many extremely nice coins on there. I will say I love shows and I almost always find something I like and I typically do coming away with some knowledge I didn't have before I went to the show.
Now here's my question to you gecko...
You just paid $144 dollars for a modern commem with a PCGS price gide value of $15 so I was quite suprised to see you have an issue with paying above sheet. Yes to be fair I know it's a toners and their are no price guides for toned coins....which is one of the things I like most about collecting them...I pay what I feel the coin is worth. It would seem with a few of your recent purchases that you do the same and I commend you for it.....but why get uptight about paying above greysheet when you shelled out crazy money for a super common commem? >>
A super common commem? Try finding another with that color intensity in a PCGS slab. I could go to a thousand shows and not find one, literally! Just about EVERY show will have at least 1, if not multiples of a common date IHC in 64 red. I refuse to pay more than 125% of sheet for coins that I can find by the handful either on ebay, or at a show. I will however stretch on more esoteric, and rare items such as that washie commem. >>
The coin itself is one of the most common commems in existance.....please prove me wrong...I said nothing about the toning being common. Think of it this way.......the reason you won't find too many 1982 dated coins with super toning is that the coin is a modern and the only way they could acquire color now days is frankly albums or improper storage. The coin is just too common even in high grade for most folks to even worry about popping them out of their original mint packaging etc. Don't get me wrong....the coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, but it is the epitime of a widget....it just has the added bonus of having color. A collector could pay $10 to $15 for one and put it in an old wayte raymond or similar album and potentially get another colorful example in a few years. The reason they don't is again.....frankly the coin has little to no value so most folks would never consider trying to tone an example like they do with say ASE's. Now when we are talking about a rainbow bag toned Morgan....the coin may also be common in collecting termse but the toning sure as heck isn't as it can't be duplicated within a few years.
Please do not mistake this as me bashing your coin.....I am sure it's a super attractive example in hand.....and remember I have paid hefty premiums myself for tons of toned material......but it is for that reason alone that I find your complaint to be strange since your willing to pay moon money for this coins regardless of guide but then want to pay what a piece of paper says for another. Your contention that you are talking about common widgets shouldn't matter.....buy the coin and not the paper or stick to Ebay where you seem to be happy with the quality of your purchases
So, let me get this straight... a guy goes to a major show, on PNG setup day, before the show's even begun, in a strong market, and thinks he's going to have his pick of nice quality accurately graded slabbed stuff (common date or no) at or around wholesale Greysheet money (but preferably less) and the dealers should be drooling like Pavlovian dogs as he dangles his $1900 cash money in front of them? Alrighty then. Good luck with that. (FYI, the average dealer at that show likely has that much invested in show expenses alone.)
In reply to your title "I might be finished with coin shows for good!"... as a 25+ year B+M dealer, and on behalf of many of my fellow dealers everywhere, I say "Thank you." That means one less in the horde of dealer wannabes with month-old Greysheets that think taking 20 minutes to cherrypick one coin is a wholesale purchase deserving of a wholesale price, regardless of the dealer's time and investment.
And...using "I can buy them on Ebay cheaper" as a retort holds no cache' whatsoever... I've done Ebay for 10 years, and the "new" Ebay is a cornucopia of end-of-the-road overgrades, both in and out of slabs, along with dealers getting rid of their junk, plus, as a bonus, there's now a profusion of counterfeits, both slabbed and raw. Good dealers are gradually leaving. The only things we sell there now are items where we no longer care what they bring. And before the inevitable littany of stories begins about how "I got this and that cheap on ebay"... don't bother. Trust me, I believe you when you say you got it "cheap".
"In reply to your title "I might be finished with coin shows for good!"... as a 25+ year B+M dealer, and on behalf of many of my fellow dealers everywhere, I say "Thank you." That means one less in the horde of dealer wannabes with month-old Greysheets that think taking 20 minutes to cherrypick one coin is a wholesale purchase deserving of a wholesale price, regardless of the dealer's time and investment."
Congratulations on tour 25 year run - I'm surprised you made it this long with that condescending attitude. While I do not agree with the OP in his assessment, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with all to many today. While $1900 is not moon money by any means, anyone with a lick of business sense recognizes the value in the smallest of customers.
<< <i>Congratulations on tour 25 year run - I'm surprised you made it this long with that condescending attitude. While I do not agree with the OP in his assessment, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with all to many today. While $1900 is not moon money by any means, anyone with a lick of business sense recognizes the value in the smallest of customers. >>
I fully recognize the value in ALL my customers, large and small; the point I was making was about people who think that subscribing to a Greysheet instantly makes them a dealer, that buying one coin is a wholesale purchase, and more importantly, those who don't grasp the concept that a dealer's time, overhead, and investment have value.
If you want to label that as condescension, so be it.
I recently stopped into a B & M in southern Cal last week and took a look at a dealers' 1878 Deep Cam IHC. I almost got weak kneed. Throw away the sheet.
<< <i>Congratulations on tour 25 year run - I'm surprised you made it this long with that condescending attitude. While I do not agree with the OP in his assessment, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with all to many today. While $1900 is not moon money by any means, anyone with a lick of business sense recognizes the value in the smallest of customers. >>
I fully recognize the value in ALL my customers, large and small; the point I was making was about people who think that subscribing to a Greysheet instantly makes them a dealer, that buying one coin is a wholesale purchase, and more importantly, those who don't grasp the concept that a dealer's time, overhead, and investment have value.
If you want to label that as condescension, so be it. >>
FWIW, I didn't find your post condescending at all. I rather enjoyed its directness.
<< <i>So, let me get this straight... a guy goes to a major show, on PNG setup day, before the show's even begun, in a strong market, and thinks he's going to have his pick of nice quality accurately graded slabbed stuff (common date or no) at or around wholesale Greysheet money (but preferably less) and the dealers should be drooling like Pavlovian dogs as he dangles his $1900 cash money in front of them? Alrighty then. Good luck with that. (FYI, the average dealer at that show likely has that much invested in show expenses alone.)
In reply to your title "I might be finished with coin shows for good!"... as a 25+ year B+M dealer, and on behalf of many of my fellow dealers everywhere, I say "Thank you." That means one less in the horde of dealer wannabes with month-old Greysheets that think taking 20 minutes to cherrypick one coin is a wholesale purchase deserving of a wholesale price, regardless of the dealer's time and investment.
And...using "I can buy them on Ebay cheaper" as a retort holds no cache' whatsoever... I've done Ebay for 10 years, and the "new" Ebay is a cornucopia of end-of-the-road overgrades, both in and out of slabs, along with dealers getting rid of their junk, plus, as a bonus, there's now a profusion of counterfeits, both slabbed and raw. Good dealers are gradually leaving. The only things we sell there now are items where we no longer care what they bring. And before the inevitable littany of stories begins about how "I got this and that cheap on ebay"... don't bother. Trust me, I believe you when you say you got it "cheap". >>
You are not very bright at all. If you either took the time to read my post, or raised the level of your reading comprehension, you would clearly have seen that I WAS NOT expecting to buy the 2 coins in question "at or preferably below" CDN sheet money. In fact, I offered 125% of sheet on a common date MS64 red IHC widget, not an 1877 IHC in a PQ VF35. And on the nice, but not exceptional 1806 common variety half cent, the dealer wanted 160% of CDN sheet.
And in reply to the "but Rick Snow is paying $205 on those coins" debate, allow me to remind you once again that no fewer than FIVE common date IHC's in PCGS MS64 red have sold recently on ebay for $203 and less. In fact one went for $180. Your counter argument will be "but those are probably average for the grade 64's" and you are probably right. But allow me to inform some of the more naive respondents to this thread.....just because a coin sits in a dealer's case at a higher end show does NOT automatically make it some kind of superior PQ for the grade monster. There are PLENTY of average for the grade coins even at shows, and even quite a few overgraded pieces as well. My 125% of sheet offer on an easy to find WIDGET was completely fair, and if a certain dealer doesnt want my $200, I'll just throw $180 at an ebay auction and save myself both the gas AND frustration that is a direct result of greedy dealers trying to milk collectors for every last drop they can squeeze.
You know- for somebody who has repeatedly criticized others for their reading comprehension, I'm wondering why you'd feel the need to refute a claim that nobody is making:
<< <i>But allow me to inform some of the more naive respondents to this thread.....just because a coin sits in a dealer's case at a higher end show does NOT automatically make it some kind of superior PQ for the grade monster. >>
<< <i>You know- for somebody who has repeatedly criticized others for their reading comprehension, I'm wondering why you'd feel the need to refute a claim that nobody is making:
<< <i>But allow me to inform some of the more naive respondents to this thread.....just because a coin sits in a dealer's case at a higher end show does NOT automatically make it some kind of superior PQ for the grade monster. >>
>>
Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows.
Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
I agree with TDN completely. The sheet represents WHOLESALE, DEALER-to-DEALER prices. If these are the prices that dealers pay, how can they sell it for that (or less) and still be in business??? The costs of flying cross country, setting up at these shows, grading, etc. Dealers need to make a living too.
<< <i>Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows. >>
I'm not going to reread this whole thread to be sure, but I'm pretty confident that even though people do claim that there are lots of inferior coins on eBay, they're not typically making the argument that all coins on eBay are inferior to all coins at shows.
I love the way dealers always downplay collectors using the greysheet to get an idea of a coins worth when they run to it anytime a customer makes an offer or wants to sell a coin. Gecko is right on, I can see more coins of common type and grade on Ebay in 10 minutes than I can see at a show in hours of browsing. I remember buying coins 30 years ago from B+M dealers that were inferior but that was all I could get in that area. Thankfully I have found a dealer here in Florida who is honest and takes care of me and explains why a coin goes for over greysheet on occasion but usually we deal in greysheet prices. He knows I will come in every week and spend $50+. By watching E-Bay I can see when a coin is a good deal at the dealer also. Just my opinion from a collector who has never gotten a coin slabbed and never will!
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
I agree with TDN completely. The sheet represents WHOLESALE, DEALER-to-DEALER prices. If these are the prices that dealers pay, how can they sell it for that (or less) and still be in business??? The costs of flying cross country, setting up at these shows, grading, etc. Dealers need to make a living too. >>
Kindly quote me where I ever once said I offered or expected to pat sheet or below sheet. I offered 125% of CDN ask on a common coin.
<< <i>Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows. >>
I'm not going to reread this whole thread to be sure, but I'm pretty confident that even though people do claim that there are lots of inferior coins on eBay, they're not typically making the argument that all coins on eBay are inferior to all coins at shows.
Google "strawman"... >>
When I link a recent ebay sale of a $180 IHC in PCGS 64 red, and then post the question "whats my incentive to pay more than $200 for a like coin at a show", out come the claims that all ebay coins are drecks and bottom dwelling, low end for the grade, crap coins. Whats really going on is just collaboration of a small, yet tight group of dealers here who feel threatened by the fact that I am making mention of these types of discrepencies. Then people like Mr. Snow, who I have alot of respect for, comes in telling me he is a "market maker" for IHC's, and he will buy any properly graded like coin at $205. I dont doubt Mr. Snow's veracity as far as his buy prices, and in fact, I commend him for being a fair dealer. I'd guesstimate through my personal experiences that the VAST majority of dealers would MAYBE offer me sheet bid of $150 on the same coin if I walked in off the street. I do however challange the fact that Mr. Snow is a "market maker" of these coins. Forgive me Rick, but I believe IHC's have been bought and sold for the past 150 years or so. No doubt that you are a major, if not THE major player in the game today, but you did not "make" that market. PCGS is a "market maker" with first strike designations as an example. There was no market for them prior to PCGS, and now there is. Thats a true "market maker".
I see Gecko's point, but I also must say that a dealer who is setting up at a show is entitled to ask whatever price he wants, any time or place he wants, for any coin that he has out.
As far as Greysheet and dealer wannabes - I've also seen dealers who can't even function on either the buy side or the sell side without consulting Greysheet. Every collector has just as much right to consult Greysheet as a price reference as any dealer does - so I'm not sure how Gecko's consulting a Greysheet makes him a dealer wannabe (as if that's a big deal).
Lastly, calling the coin in question a "widget" simply cheapens the whole hobby. If you want to buy your coins cheap, call them widgets. If you want to sell your coins high, call them exquisite gems. Either way, the coin should speak for itself and it doesn't need that kind of "help" - thank you very much.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>I see Gecko's point, but I also must say that a dealer who is setting up at a show is entitled to ask whatever price he wants, any time or place he wants, for any coin that he has out.
As far as Greysheet and dealer wannabes - I've also seen dealers who can't even function on either the buy side or the sell side without consulting Greysheet. Every collector has just as much right to consult Greysheet as a price reference as any dealer does - so I'm not sure how Gecko's consulting a Greysheet makes him a dealer wannabe (as if that's a big deal).
Lastly, calling the coin in question a "widget" simply cheapens the whole hobby. If you want to buy your coins cheap, call them widgets. If you want to sell your coins high, call them exquisite gems. Either way, the coin should speak for itself and it doesn't need that kind of "help" - thank you very much. >>
Your 1st point: Yes, you are correct. And if I can get the same coin for 15-20% cheaper on ebay, thats the crux of my post. Your 2nd point: Sheet is not some "secret handshake" publication for dealers only. And to reiterate, I did not even offer near sheet, I offered 25% above on a common coin. Your 3rd point: My definition of widget is not derogatory, nor meant to be. A widget by my defenition is simply any commonly available coin, regardless of condition or price, that I can find a half dozen of on ebay, or at any given show at any given time. Such as a 1905 64 red IHC. Im proud of my collection, which is 90% made up of such widgets.
<< <i>"Ebay is not for everyone, and coin shows are not for everyone."
(modified quote from Meg Whitman)
I am curious to know if you have purchased your 64 Red IHC yet. You need not answer (obviously) if you are not comfortable doing so. >>
Not yet....was snubbed Wednesday at the CSNS, and was on a 24 hour work shift yesterday (relieved this morning at 7am). If you have an extra for sale, and thats what you may be getting at, PM me and we can negotiate.
<< <i>Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows. >>
This isn't true... there's some good stuff on Ebay!
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows. >>
This isn't true... there's some good stuff on Ebay! >>
And with 99% of sellers happy to take returns, why not take a shot? nothing to lose except a possible trip to the post office right?
<< <i>When I link a recent ebay sale of a $180 IHC in PCGS 64 red, and then post the question "whats my incentive to pay more than $200 for a like coin at a show", out come the claims that all ebay coins are drecks and bottom dwelling, low end for the grade, crap coins. >>
I just went through every page of this thread and did a search on the word "eBay". There is not a single post here including that word which makes the claim: "all ebay coins are drecks and bottom dwelling, low end for the grade, crap coins".
<< <i>"Ebay is not for everyone, and coin shows are not for everyone." >>
Comments
<< <i>Interesting that the OP cannot or will not elaborate on the argument that Ebay does not make a market for coins; that all coins graded in the same number holders (even PCGS) are not equal; and that GS is not the end all/ be all price list. He keeps falling back on "I can get it cheaper on Ebay", without addressing the counterpoints.
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points. >>
While ebay does not "make a market" (hype and imagination make markets) for coins, it DOES provide a marketplace to purchase coins. I will concede to you that not all PCGS MS64 RD Indians are of equal quality. But you MUST concede to me that not every coin at a major show is PQ for the grade just cuz it sits in so and so's case. I have a great story similar to my experience today. For a LONG time, I had wanted a Vermont half. I decided on a 64 as my goal because 62-64 have a tiny difference in price, but a 65 is about double the price of a 64. I had a dealer at a local show push a raw Vermont on me for a week (earlier in the week I saw it in his shop). He swore up and down it was 64 all day long. He wanted above sheet on it, at the time CDN had it at $290, he was asking $330 firm. After contemplating it deeply, I passed on it. Two weeks later, I found this PCGS 64 Vermont on ebay, and snagged it for $255. So again, although smoke and mirrors "make a market" (think first strikes
<< <i>Interesting that the OP cannot or will not elaborate on the argument that Ebay does not make a market for coins; that all coins graded in the same number holders (even PCGS) are not equal; and that GS is not the end all/ be all price list. He keeps falling back on "I can get it cheaper on Ebay", without addressing the counterpoints.
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points. >>
A big "so what" to a coin in the same grade that sells for $180 plus $7 shipping. The two coins that I linked at the same grade from Teletrade auctioned at $225 and $270. Nice full Red Indian cents aren't widgets, not at greysheet price they aren't. Go to any show and try to find them at sheet prices and see how many a person can buy.
Buy the lower priced ones if that is what a person likes. Some dealers at shows will have them, though a person may have to go to more than one show and some of the coins will be nicer than others. Some dealers won't EVER have coins for sale to new retail customers at grey sheet. After a while, a person figures it out.
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting that the OP cannot or will not elaborate on the argument that Ebay does not make a market for coins; that all coins graded in the same number holders (even PCGS) are not equal; and that GS is not the end all/ be all price list. He keeps falling back on "I can get it cheaper on Ebay", without addressing the counterpoints.
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points. >>
A big "so what" to a coin in the same grade that sells for $180 plus $7 shipping. The two coins that I linked at the same grade from Teletrade auctioned at $225 and $270. Nice full Red Indian cents aren't widgets, not at greysheet price they aren't. Go to any show and try to find them at sheet prices and see how many a person can buy.
Buy the lower priced ones if that is what a person likes. Some dealers at shows will have them, though a person may have to go to more than one show and some of the coins will be nicer than others. Some dealers won't EVER have coins for sale to new retail customers at grey sheet. After a while, a person figures it out. >>
If you do not think a common date indian cent in 64 red is a widget, then you have no idea what a widget is.
Edited to add: I did not want the coin at sheet, I offered 125% of sheet ask.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these "nice" coins?
No way to tell off an image. >>
lol. we have gone from not being able to grade a coin from an
image to outright not being able to give an opinion of a coin in
an image.
hilarious. >>
Grade this coin off this image:
Tradedollarnut,
I will grade the coin for you. It is a POS
If you want, you can send it to my son for proper disposition
He won't even charge you for the handling your trash
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting that the OP cannot or will not elaborate on the argument that Ebay does not make a market for coins; that all coins graded in the same number holders (even PCGS) are not equal; and that GS is not the end all/ be all price list. He keeps falling back on "I can get it cheaper on Ebay", without addressing the counterpoints.
It would be interesting to have an actual discussion on all of the points. >>
While ebay does not "make a market" (hype and imagination make markets) for coins, it DOES provide a marketplace to purchase coins. I will concede to you that not all PCGS MS64 RD Indians are of equal quality. But you MUST concede to me that not every coin at a major show is PQ for the grade just cuz it sits in so and so's case. I have a great story similar to my experience today. For a LONG time, I had wanted a Vermont half. I decided on a 64 as my goal because 62-64 have a tiny difference in price, but a 65 is about double the price of a 64. I had a dealer at a local show push a raw Vermont on me for a week (earlier in the week I saw it in his shop). He swore up and down it was 64 all day long. He wanted above sheet on it, at the time CDN had it at $290, he was asking $330 firm. After contemplating it deeply, I passed on it. Two weeks later, I found this PCGS 64 Vermont on ebay, and snagged it for $255. So again, although smoke and mirrors "make a market" (think first strikes
that might not be the best choice to display a good buy on ebay gecko.
people are going to say it has spots on it that are distracting and thus
people did not bid strongly on it!
ebay is a strange place. you win some and you lose some... but i think
you could come up with a better example if you tried.
I was at the color of money show in houston 2 years ago and the big Standing Liberty Quarter man was there selling his book and coins. He had tubes of AU dates at 3 times greysheet. LOL, LOL That stuff is not hard to find and it was not because of head detail either.
As long as people are willing to over pay the dealers will wait for the money. It can change in a hurry though.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Also remember this one important point when attending a coin show...at a coin show you have the chance to view and study all coins in person. It's something that is impossible to do when buying off of Ebay.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
<< <i>
<< <i>
A big "so what" to a coin in the same grade that sells for $180 plus $7 shipping. The two coins that I linked at the same grade from Teletrade auctioned at $225 and $270. Nice full Red Indian cents aren't widgets, not at greysheet price they aren't. Go to any show and try to find them at sheet prices and see how many a person can buy.
Buy the lower priced ones if that is what a person likes. Some dealers at shows will have them, though a person may have to go to more than one show and some of the coins will be nicer than others. Some dealers won't EVER have coins for sale to new retail customers at grey sheet. After a while, a person figures it out. >>
If you do not think a common date indian cent in 64 red is a widget, then you have no idea what a widget is.
Edited to add: I did not want the coin at sheet, I offered 125% of sheet ask.
A widget is something that a person will find ten or more of at every larger show, and/or find in under an hour on the Internet. It may be a widget coin with an unlimited budget, but not with the price constraint.
You proved the point that at the price you are willing to pay that it may not be a widget. You went to a fair sized show, looked around and came home empty. How many in that grade did you find? Or one grade lower or higher? How many have you found on the Internet since going to the show? I found two on Teletrade in the past 60 days and they sold much higher than you were willing to pay. The nicer one sold for over 50% more than your highest offer, over 70% over greysheet. The one you found on Ebay fits the price, but to some buyers may not fit the quality, or the established dealer (seller started Jan 2008). If you really want the coin and can't tell the difference, maybe go to RB or BN and then you'll find lots and lots. In nice red, they are hard to find, and usually command a premium if nice.
How many have you been offered from dealers with inventory since you started the thread? If the answer is that you found lots at the show at a good price, but they didn't meet your quality requirement, and also have lots of offers via PM, then I am wrong and admit as much. Since you came home empty and dealers with coins to sell aren't throwing them at you, maybe you are the one who is wrong? Is that possible?
At the end of the day, it's your money. Personally, an extra few bucks if the coin is solid doesn't come up on my radar. I'd rather like what I buy, and buy what I like.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Now here's my question to you gecko...
You just paid $144 dollars for a modern commem with a PCGS price gide value of $15 so I was quite suprised to see you have an issue with paying above sheet. Yes to be fair I know it's a toners and their are no price guides for toned coins....which is one of the things I like most about collecting them...I pay what I feel the coin is worth. It would seem with a few of your recent purchases that you do the same and I commend you for it.....but why get uptight about paying above greysheet when you shelled out crazy money for a super common commem?
<< <i>I won't pile on as I have no problem with folks buying off Ebay and I have bought and sold many extremely nice coins on there. I will say I love shows and I almost always find something I like and I typically do coming away with some knowledge I didn't have before I went to the show.
Now here's my question to you gecko...
You just paid $144 dollars for a modern commem with a PCGS price gide value of $15 so I was quite suprised to see you have an issue with paying above sheet. Yes to be fair I know it's a toners and their are no price guides for toned coins....which is one of the things I like most about collecting them...I pay what I feel the coin is worth. It would seem with a few of your recent purchases that you do the same and I commend you for it.....but why get uptight about paying above greysheet when you shelled out crazy money for a super common commem?
A super common commem? Try finding another with that color intensity in a PCGS slab. I could go to a thousand shows and not find one, literally! Just about EVERY show will have at least 1, if not multiples of a common date IHC in 64 red. I refuse to pay more than 125% of sheet for coins that I can find by the handful either on ebay, or at a show. I will however stretch on more esoteric, and rare items such as that washie commem.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Are these "nice" coins?
No way to tell off an image. >>
lol. we have gone from not being able to grade a coin from an
image to outright not being able to give an opinion of a coin in
an image.
hilarious. >>
Grade this coin off this image:
I am sure that is a great coin and my comment is about the photo, it to me looks like a cartoon image.
Unfortunately, this is a very short sided view
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
If you manage to buy below Coin Values prices that's a good thing given that you know how to grade and can recognize quality when you see it.
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Speech in Washington, 16 Apr. 1953, in Public Papers of Presidents 1953 (1960) p. 182
<< <i>Doesn't the fact that Rick Snow has said he will pay $205 for it wholesale suggest your retail offer of $200 was a bit low, in this market? Perhaps greysheet is a bit behind on these? >>
No Gecko insists he can find them find them by the handful, there is no possibility that he is wrong. Even if a major dealer is offering 30% over sheet wholesale, and his offer is 25% over sheet. He expects dealers to sell their nice coins to him for a lower price, instead of going to Rick and getting a higher price (and no aggravation).
Maybe Gecko will start collecting better date Barber halves next, and there will be a 200 post thread about how dealers are charging outrageous prices for those.
No Gecko insists he can find them find them by the handful, there is no possibility that he is wrong. Even if a major dealer is offering 30% over sheet wholesale, and his offer is 25% over sheet. He expects dealers to sell their nice coins to him for a lower price, instead of going to Rick and getting a higher price (and no aggravation).
Excellent summary of the thread.
As an old man--and seasoned collector--let me respectfully offer some advice:
Numismatics is supposed to be a relaxing hobby. Life is short. It's a free country. Let it go already, and move on.
If that's not the case, Gecko, maybe it would help to ask yourself this question before buying: "Would I be pissed if I was offered Greysheet bid if I tried to sell this coin?" If the answer is yes, maybe you should put the Greysheet away. If not, well, maybe we're not really talking about high-end coins here.
On the other hand, I also walked out of two other shows feeling like a schnook for paying too much for the coins I bought. By too much in this case I mean about 20 to 30% above what lesser examples might sell for. However, I then researched the Heritage archives and found that both coins had just sold at premium prices -- presumably purchased by the dealers I bought them from. So the dealers stepped up and paid more for a better coin. In one case, the dealer actually paid too much and made little profit on the sale to me. The other dealer made about the expected 20%. Sure I could have saved some money buying sight unseen in the Heritage auctions, but (1) I have gotten burned doing that in the past, and (2) the Heritage pictures sucked so bad that I would have passed on both coins based on the photos.
By the way, I still would like to own the coins I passed on. They were great coins, and just because I could not justify paying the price asked at the time does not mean that someone else will not feel that the coins actually are a good value.
CG
<< <i>
<< <i>I won't pile on as I have no problem with folks buying off Ebay and I have bought and sold many extremely nice coins on there. I will say I love shows and I almost always find something I like and I typically do coming away with some knowledge I didn't have before I went to the show.
Now here's my question to you gecko...
You just paid $144 dollars for a modern commem with a PCGS price gide value of $15 so I was quite suprised to see you have an issue with paying above sheet. Yes to be fair I know it's a toners and their are no price guides for toned coins....which is one of the things I like most about collecting them...I pay what I feel the coin is worth. It would seem with a few of your recent purchases that you do the same and I commend you for it.....but why get uptight about paying above greysheet when you shelled out crazy money for a super common commem?
A super common commem? Try finding another with that color intensity in a PCGS slab. I could go to a thousand shows and not find one, literally! Just about EVERY show will have at least 1, if not multiples of a common date IHC in 64 red. I refuse to pay more than 125% of sheet for coins that I can find by the handful either on ebay, or at a show. I will however stretch on more esoteric, and rare items such as that washie commem. >>
The coin itself is one of the most common commems in existance.....please prove me wrong...I said nothing about the toning being common. Think of it this way.......the reason you won't find too many 1982 dated coins with super toning is that the coin is a modern and the only way they could acquire color now days is frankly albums or improper storage. The coin is just too common even in high grade for most folks to even worry about popping them out of their original mint packaging etc. Don't get me wrong....the coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, but it is the epitime of a widget....it just has the added bonus of having color. A collector could pay $10 to $15 for one and put it in an old wayte raymond or similar album and potentially get another colorful example in a few years. The reason they don't is again.....frankly the coin has little to no value so most folks would never consider trying to tone an example like they do with say ASE's. Now when we are talking about a rainbow bag toned Morgan....the coin may also be common in collecting termse but the toning sure as heck isn't as it can't be duplicated within a few years.
Please do not mistake this as me bashing your coin.....I am sure it's a super attractive example in hand.....and remember I have paid hefty premiums myself for tons of toned material......but it is for that reason alone that I find your complaint to be strange since your willing to pay moon money for this coins regardless of guide but then want to pay what a piece of paper says for another. Your contention that you are talking about common widgets shouldn't matter.....buy the coin and not the paper or stick to Ebay where you seem to be happy with the quality of your purchases
In reply to your title "I might be finished with coin shows for good!"... as a 25+ year B+M dealer, and on behalf of many of my fellow dealers everywhere, I say "Thank you." That means one less in the horde of dealer wannabes with month-old Greysheets that think taking 20 minutes to cherrypick one coin is a wholesale purchase deserving of a wholesale price, regardless of the dealer's time and investment.
And...using "I can buy them on Ebay cheaper" as a retort holds no cache' whatsoever... I've done Ebay for 10 years, and the "new" Ebay is a cornucopia of end-of-the-road overgrades, both in and out of slabs, along with dealers getting rid of their junk, plus, as a bonus, there's now a profusion of counterfeits, both slabbed and raw. Good dealers are gradually leaving. The only things we sell there now are items where we no longer care what they bring. And before the inevitable littany of stories begins about how "I got this and that cheap on ebay"... don't bother. Trust me, I believe you when you say you got it "cheap".
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Congratulations on tour 25 year run - I'm surprised you made it this long with that condescending attitude. While I do not agree with the OP in his assessment, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with all to many today. While $1900 is not moon money by any means, anyone with a lick of business sense recognizes the value in the smallest of customers.
<< <i>Congratulations on tour 25 year run - I'm surprised you made it this long with that condescending attitude. While I do not agree with the OP in his assessment, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with all to many today. While $1900 is not moon money by any means, anyone with a lick of business sense recognizes the value in the smallest of customers. >>
I fully recognize the value in ALL my customers, large and small; the point I was making was about people who think that subscribing to a Greysheet instantly makes them a dealer, that buying one coin is a wholesale purchase, and more importantly, those who don't grasp the concept that a dealer's time, overhead, and investment have value.
If you want to label that as condescension, so be it.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
Well if you buy it off the website for $275, its considered sight unseen. Same as buying any coin off ebay, or any website. >>
It's only considered sight unseen if there's no return policy. I'm pretty sure Rick has a very good return policy.
Link
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
I recently stopped into a B & M in southern Cal last week and took a look at a dealers' 1878 Deep Cam IHC. I almost got weak kneed. Throw away the sheet.
Price gudes are just that, GUIDES.
<< <i>
<< <i>Congratulations on tour 25 year run - I'm surprised you made it this long with that condescending attitude. While I do not agree with the OP in his assessment, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with all to many today. While $1900 is not moon money by any means, anyone with a lick of business sense recognizes the value in the smallest of customers. >>
I fully recognize the value in ALL my customers, large and small; the point I was making was about people who think that subscribing to a Greysheet instantly makes them a dealer, that buying one coin is a wholesale purchase, and more importantly, those who don't grasp the concept that a dealer's time, overhead, and investment have value.
If you want to label that as condescension, so be it. >>
FWIW, I didn't find your post condescending at all. I rather enjoyed its directness.
A one coin wholesale lot... I'm still
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>So, let me get this straight... a guy goes to a major show, on PNG setup day, before the show's even begun, in a strong market, and thinks he's going to have his pick of nice quality accurately graded slabbed stuff (common date or no) at or around wholesale Greysheet money (but preferably less) and the dealers should be drooling like Pavlovian dogs as he dangles his $1900 cash money in front of them? Alrighty then. Good luck with that. (FYI, the average dealer at that show likely has that much invested in show expenses alone.)
In reply to your title "I might be finished with coin shows for good!"... as a 25+ year B+M dealer, and on behalf of many of my fellow dealers everywhere, I say "Thank you." That means one less in the horde of dealer wannabes with month-old Greysheets that think taking 20 minutes to cherrypick one coin is a wholesale purchase deserving of a wholesale price, regardless of the dealer's time and investment.
And...using "I can buy them on Ebay cheaper" as a retort holds no cache' whatsoever... I've done Ebay for 10 years, and the "new" Ebay is a cornucopia of end-of-the-road overgrades, both in and out of slabs, along with dealers getting rid of their junk, plus, as a bonus, there's now a profusion of counterfeits, both slabbed and raw. Good dealers are gradually leaving. The only things we sell there now are items where we no longer care what they bring. And before the inevitable littany of stories begins about how "I got this and that cheap on ebay"... don't bother. Trust me, I believe you when you say you got it "cheap". >>
You are not very bright at all. If you either took the time to read my post, or raised the level of your reading comprehension, you would clearly have seen that I WAS NOT expecting to buy the 2 coins in question "at or preferably below" CDN sheet money. In fact, I offered 125% of sheet on a common date MS64 red IHC widget, not an 1877 IHC in a PQ VF35. And on the nice, but not exceptional 1806 common variety half cent, the dealer wanted 160% of CDN sheet.
And in reply to the "but Rick Snow is paying $205 on those coins" debate, allow me to remind you once again that no fewer than FIVE common date IHC's in PCGS MS64 red have sold recently on ebay for $203 and less. In fact one went for $180. Your counter argument will be "but those are probably average for the grade 64's" and you are probably right. But allow me to inform some of the more naive respondents to this thread.....just because a coin sits in a dealer's case at a higher end show does NOT automatically make it some kind of superior PQ for the grade monster. There are PLENTY of average for the grade coins even at shows, and even quite a few overgraded pieces as well. My 125% of sheet offer on an easy to find WIDGET was completely fair, and if a certain dealer doesnt want my $200, I'll just throw $180 at an ebay auction and save myself both the gas AND frustration that is a direct result of greedy dealers trying to milk collectors for every last drop they can squeeze.
<< <i>But allow me to inform some of the more naive respondents to this thread.....just because a coin sits in a dealer's case at a higher end show does NOT automatically make it some kind of superior PQ for the grade monster. >>
<< <i>You know- for somebody who has repeatedly criticized others for their reading comprehension, I'm wondering why you'd feel the need to refute a claim that nobody is making:
<< <i>But allow me to inform some of the more naive respondents to this thread.....just because a coin sits in a dealer's case at a higher end show does NOT automatically make it some kind of superior PQ for the grade monster. >>
>>
Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows.
I agree with TDN completely. The sheet represents WHOLESALE, DEALER-to-DEALER prices. If these are the prices that dealers pay, how can they sell it for that (or less) and still be in business??? The costs of flying cross country, setting up at these shows, grading, etc. Dealers need to make a living too.
Senior Numismatist
Legend Rare Coin Auctions
<< <i>Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows. >>
I'm not going to reread this whole thread to be sure, but I'm pretty confident that even though people do claim that there are lots of inferior coins on eBay, they're not typically making the argument that all coins on eBay are inferior to all coins at shows.
Google "strawman"...
<< <i>Nice coins typically bring way over sheet. Slaves to the sheet, end up with sheet...
I agree with TDN completely. The sheet represents WHOLESALE, DEALER-to-DEALER prices. If these are the prices that dealers pay, how can they sell it for that (or less) and still be in business??? The costs of flying cross country, setting up at these shows, grading, etc. Dealers need to make a living too. >>
Kindly quote me where I ever once said I offered or expected to pat sheet or below sheet. I offered 125% of CDN ask on a common coin.
<< <i>You're doing it again.
<< <i>Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows. >>
I'm not going to reread this whole thread to be sure, but I'm pretty confident that even though people do claim that there are lots of inferior coins on eBay, they're not typically making the argument that all coins on eBay are inferior to all coins at shows.
Google "strawman"...
When I link a recent ebay sale of a $180 IHC in PCGS 64 red, and then post the question "whats my incentive to pay more than $200 for a like coin at a show", out come the claims that all ebay coins are drecks and bottom dwelling, low end for the grade, crap coins. Whats really going on is just collaboration of a small, yet tight group of dealers here who feel threatened by the fact that I am making mention of these types of discrepencies. Then people like Mr. Snow, who I have alot of respect for, comes in telling me he is a "market maker" for IHC's, and he will buy any properly graded like coin at $205. I dont doubt Mr. Snow's veracity as far as his buy prices, and in fact, I commend him for being a fair dealer. I'd guesstimate through my personal experiences that the VAST majority of dealers would MAYBE offer me sheet bid of $150 on the same coin if I walked in off the street. I do however challange the fact that Mr. Snow is a "market maker" of these coins. Forgive me Rick, but I believe IHC's have been bought and sold for the past 150 years or so. No doubt that you are a major, if not THE major player in the game today, but you did not "make" that market. PCGS is a "market maker" with first strike designations as an example. There was no market for them prior to PCGS, and now there is. Thats a true "market maker".
As far as Greysheet and dealer wannabes - I've also seen dealers who can't even function on either the buy side or the sell side without consulting Greysheet. Every collector has just as much right to consult Greysheet as a price reference as any dealer does - so I'm not sure how Gecko's consulting a Greysheet makes him a dealer wannabe (as if that's a big deal).
Lastly, calling the coin in question a "widget" simply cheapens the whole hobby. If you want to buy your coins cheap, call them widgets. If you want to sell your coins high, call them exquisite gems. Either way, the coin should speak for itself and it doesn't need that kind of "help" - thank you very much.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I see Gecko's point, but I also must say that a dealer who is setting up at a show is entitled to ask whatever price he wants, any time or place he wants, for any coin that he has out.
As far as Greysheet and dealer wannabes - I've also seen dealers who can't even function on either the buy side or the sell side without consulting Greysheet. Every collector has just as much right to consult Greysheet as a price reference as any dealer does - so I'm not sure how Gecko's consulting a Greysheet makes him a dealer wannabe (as if that's a big deal).
Lastly, calling the coin in question a "widget" simply cheapens the whole hobby. If you want to buy your coins cheap, call them widgets. If you want to sell your coins high, call them exquisite gems. Either way, the coin should speak for itself and it doesn't need that kind of "help" - thank you very much.
Your 1st point: Yes, you are correct. And if I can get the same coin for 15-20% cheaper on ebay, thats the crux of my post.
Your 2nd point: Sheet is not some "secret handshake" publication for dealers only. And to reiterate, I did not even offer near sheet, I offered 25% above on a common coin.
Your 3rd point: My definition of widget is not derogatory, nor meant to be. A widget by my defenition is simply any commonly available coin, regardless of condition or price, that I can find a half dozen of on ebay, or at any given show at any given time. Such as a 1905 64 red IHC. Im proud of my collection, which is 90% made up of such widgets.
(modified quote from Meg Whitman)
I am curious to know if you have purchased your 64 Red IHC yet. You need not answer (obviously) if you are not comfortable doing so.
<< <i>"Ebay is not for everyone, and coin shows are not for everyone."
(modified quote from Meg Whitman)
I am curious to know if you have purchased your 64 Red IHC yet. You need not answer (obviously) if you are not comfortable doing so. >>
I am curious when he would have had time, between fighting fires and the three day long fight on this thread.
<< <i>"Ebay is not for everyone, and coin shows are not for everyone."
(modified quote from Meg Whitman)
I am curious to know if you have purchased your 64 Red IHC yet. You need not answer (obviously) if you are not comfortable doing so. >>
Not yet....was snubbed Wednesday at the CSNS, and was on a 24 hour work shift yesterday (relieved this morning at 7am). If you have an extra for sale, and thats what you may be getting at, PM me and we can negotiate.
<< <i>Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows. >>
This isn't true... there's some good stuff on Ebay!
Not me. I have never owned a slabbed IHC, of any date, brand, or model.
<< <i>
<< <i>Its a response to the assumption or inference that people in this thread CONTINUALLY make that somehow all ebay coins are inferior to all coins at shows. >>
This isn't true... there's some good stuff on Ebay! >>
And with 99% of sellers happy to take returns, why not take a shot? nothing to lose except a possible trip to the post office right?
<< <i>When I link a recent ebay sale of a $180 IHC in PCGS 64 red, and then post the question "whats my incentive to pay more than $200 for a like coin at a show", out come the claims that all ebay coins are drecks and bottom dwelling, low end for the grade, crap coins. >>
I just went through every page of this thread and did a search on the word "eBay". There is not a single post here including that word which makes the claim: "all ebay coins are drecks and bottom dwelling, low end for the grade, crap coins".
<< <i>"Ebay is not for everyone, and coin shows are not for everyone." >>
Ain't that the truth?
ALL coin, NO juice!
1863 50C J-338 PR64 PCGS from the Garrett collection.