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1797 Bust dime- genuine or counterfeit? Opinions needed on this bust time. Please comment. Thanks!
rec78
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Weight is 2.32g.
1797 Bust dime- genuine or counterfeit? Opinions needed on this bust time. Please comment. Thanks!
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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Nothing jumps out as an obvious fake. I’ll let the die marriage guys confirm though.
Same hence why I voted genuine. But I’m not an expert in this series by any means.
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I voted real, figuring that with that honest-looking wear it would have to be a contemporary counterfeit if fake, and I wouldn't expect that early counterfeiters in the fledgling US were that skilled.
It looks real to me
Mr_Spud
Looks good to me but experience is hindering it here
wow... that's a tough one to call for me... Nothing is screaming fake, but I'll sit back and wait for the die variety experts to weigh in...
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Has the appearance of being real, but some fakes can be that deceptive.
One concern I have, if the color is actually accurate, would be if the reddish pink color could be from artificial aging.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Edited, in light of some of the additional posts to this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
All the diagnostics look right for the 13* variety. Wear looks even & natural. Owner has weight @ 2.32; original was 2.7 - likely wear causes the difference. A member commented on the color; I can’t attest to that as “normal” or due to something else.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
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Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
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Possibly repaired
Real but cleaned/damaged/messed with. Won't straight grade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
With its smooth even flat appearance I just can’t see it as genuine. Pass
My suggestion get TPG material, especially if expensive coins. The fact it’s not in a TPG holder another red flag. It certainly is a cull.
It’s definitely something I would pass on.
Shop it around the bourse see what they would say or offer lol.
Nastily beautiful on my budget.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
It is difficult to fathom how any professional dealer could look at the OP's dime and come to a conclusion it is counterfeit, yet here we are.
Interesting. Check the diameter. Count the edge reeds. At first glance it looks genuine, then I compared with my PCGS VG10 of the 1797 JR2. Compare the 2 small diagonal scratches on the neck on each coin, along with the longer diagonal scratch starting at the bottom of the two scratches to hair. Also, the width of the rims appears wider on the OP coin.
There are 2 known die pairs for dimes dated 1797, and I agree, this is JR-2 (13 stars, knobbed 9 obv.).
Compare with JR-1 (16 stars, pointed 9).
Both die pairs use the same reverse die.
This coin is a die match to JR-2 for all the obverse and reverse positional attributes listed in the Davis, et al book.
So the die markers do not indicate a counterfeit.
It could still be a counterfeit if struck from transfer dies which were made from a genuine JR-2.
In my opinion, it is genuine.
[Edit: but see below and above - identical circulation marks like the parallel scratches on neck indicate this is one of several transfer die counterfeits.]
How much less difficult would it be if you were to omit the word “professional”?
I do think the conclusion would be less difficult to fathom if it had been predicated upon something other than
“With its smooth even flat appearance I just can’t see it as genuine.”> @RedRocket said:
How much less difficult would it be to fathom if you omitted “professional” from your sentence?😈
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It looks off, even though the die markers match up. Just a gut feeling.
But it has been "boinked" quite a bit (my term for excessive abusive fore collectors and general life on planet Earth) and so, even though I THINK it is probably genuine, I really don't know.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
@burfle23
The reverse has post-mint marks that are similar to OP coin, small dig with cratering between S and T, dig on leaf below R, scratch just of end of D to leaf, others. Sorry about the pic, best I could quickly do with an iPhone.
I would say genuine, but cleaned with some crude attempts to replace some feathers on the eagle. That made me think counterfeit at first glance. It won’t get a straight grade.
But, hey, it’s a 1797 dime which is legitimately scarce.
I received a warning last week from PCGS Social to play nice.
That was me playing nice.
.
.
Not looking good for the coin in the OP.
Circulation marks cannot appear on other coins in the same identical place. That seems to be how some of the more deceptive counterfeits of various series have been confirmed that burfle23 has written about before.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Don’t like it’s flat look and lack of detail.
Seems counterfeit.
She looks Genny.
Nothing jumps out at me that would lead me to believe otherwise.
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My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Some of the marks do appear similar, but I do not see any that are identical. At least none that I can say for sure based on both photos.
Edit: Ok I found this one sold in 2021 that has all of the same indicators. NGC - Good Cleaned. This would indeed appear to be a transfer die counterfeit.
Authentic. Not for me but authentic nonetheless.
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
Also a VG-8 from a 2018 sale.
The OP coin is a transfer die counterfeit. My pictured coin is most likely counterfeit, or it could be the host coin as it has the most detail of those found. Several have appeared since 2018.
Edit: the graders/authenticators at PCGS @pcgs_education @PCGS_Moderator and other TPG's need to know, as the discovery was made on this thread and was previously unknown. Several have been submitted and authenticated by TPG's from 2018 to current, both graded and details/genuine. My coin came to market in late 2023, by an eBay high-volume seller.
Second Edit: @yosclimber thanks for your compilation, the counterfeit was made by 2007 or earlier. Genuine 1797 JR-2 13 Star dimes are becoming rarer in low grades!
@rec78, can you give more information on the background of the coin? Also, does the item have edge reeding? I suspect a plain edge or something that does not match genuine, that would be useful information for the TPG's.
Nice work on showing showing the multiple examples of this counterfeit!
I looked through the PCGS Auction Prices table and made this list:
Here is the 2007-4, since it had not been mentioned in prior posts:
Sounds like the only solution here is to submit to PCGS and see what the paid professionals come back as Genuine or Counterfeit!
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Wow!
A momentous ‘catch and kill’ by a fine group of numismatic mavens!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
+1. I poo-poohed this in my head as I was reading through the thread, but the last series of pictures are pretty definitive. Nicely done, and very impressive. This thread should be framed!
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1797-draped-bust-dime-10c-jr-13-stars-4676121214
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1797-draped-bust-dime-10c-coin-13-4928562712
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1797-jr2-r4-draped-bust-dime-13-stars-1954556703
Hats off to @Nysoto for comparing it to his coin and pointing out the issues. I wasn't sold at first, but it was motivation to look for other examples.
I don't know much background-only that I purchased it about 20 years ago at a coin show.
