At $95 for the Peace proof, I am really tempted to cancel, but will so many cancel that this will be a potential upside? One never knows, but I've paid more for coins in worse shape. I may keep it.
@NJCoin said:
Eventually they might even have another vault sale, like they did last year, to try to clear out some old crap.
Yeah, and that vault* sale will probably be full of returns from people that didn't read their email and see the price increase of the subscription at the last minute. I got a couple things from that vault sale last year and 1 of them was an obvious return.
I figure they won't even get close to selling what they HAVE made for the subscriptions and big boys. I can't imagine they will let that much silver sit on their shelves (the oh-so-expensive silver that we must jack prices up for). Especially when great numismatic collections are to be made with the impending DC comics series .
*somewhat scared to include the word "vault" in a post. lol
The mint will keep milking this as long as it continues to sell but as I stated in another thread, we dropped our subs for these. No money in it, plus we're getting more and more complaints about the price increases.
@HATTRICK said:
It’s a miracle !! My addiction to silver coins has been cured by outrageous US Mint prices. 😂
Unfortunately the cure is not working. Just like these things too much. The sad thing about it is the total collapse of the resell market. Got a boatload of OGP Eagles that can’t get $25 at the pawnshop.
How many novice buyers have loaded up on "ASE's" from online sources? Especially the ones that sell for $19.99 plus buy 10 and get 5 free. We can only guess the damage done to the hobby when these people find out the true value of their coin "investments."
@NJCoin said:
I just canceled all of my subscriptions for items that contain silver. I'm going to wait and see how these sell, and might be tempted to jump in if sales are anemic enough.
The only thing I will buy, regardless of price, will be the Flowing Hair medal, since that will be a one-off that I would just like to have.
They know you want the Flowing hair so it won't be $91.
Disappointed I was so far off on the demand for the proofs. They blew it on mintage and so there is a glut to this day. The legacy of the Morgan/Peace commems will hinge on that mistake and the immediate years following.
They have two choices to reclaim perceived value moving forward:
Dial back the mintages or reduce pricing.
Well, you have your answer with respect to pricing. And mintages will take care of themselves as sales fall off a cliff.
As far as Flowing Hair goes, I have to respectfully disagree. Morgan and Peace sell for right around the same price as ASEs, Liberty medals, etc. Flowing Hair will as well.
If you'll notice, they vary pricing slightly based on finish, but not based on subject. Based on the e-mail they sent, it is a near certainty that the Flowing Hair will be priced between $90-100, depending on the finish, no matter how many they make. The gold will be priced according to their grid.
Flowing Hair silver medal to be released this Fall will be priced at $104.
IMO, the Morgan and Peace dollars are among the most classic, beautiful coins, and I will continue to collect them annually. However, I did cancel a couple of my other silver subscriptions.
I do think that after 38 years, it may be time to retire the ASE. I still buy the uncirculated and proof finishes, but I may soon stop because I’m getting tired of them. And I am REALLY sick of all the slabbed versions signed by Mercanti. That guy has really prostituted himself (for tons of money, of course).
@NJCoin said:
I just canceled all of my subscriptions for items that contain silver. I'm going to wait and see how these sell, and might be tempted to jump in if sales are anemic enough.
The only thing I will buy, regardless of price, will be the Flowing Hair medal, since that will be a one-off that I would just like to have.
They know you want the Flowing hair so it won't be $91.
Disappointed I was so far off on the demand for the proofs. They blew it on mintage and so there is a glut to this day. The legacy of the Morgan/Peace commems will hinge on that mistake and the immediate years following.
They have two choices to reclaim perceived value moving forward:
Dial back the mintages or reduce pricing.
Well, you have your answer with respect to pricing. And mintages will take care of themselves as sales fall off a cliff.
As far as Flowing Hair goes, I have to respectfully disagree. Morgan and Peace sell for right around the same price as ASEs, Liberty medals, etc. Flowing Hair will as well.
If you'll notice, they vary pricing slightly based on finish, but not based on subject. Based on the e-mail they sent, it is a near certainty that the Flowing Hair will be priced between $90-100, depending on the finish, no matter how many they make. The gold will be priced according to their grid.
Flowing Hair silver medal to be released this Fall will be priced at $104.
Total P-I-G-S!!!! As much as I was looking forward to it, given that it's not even a coin, I very well might take a pass, depending on mintage. I see they have a HHL of 5. Have they announced the mintage?
Because, other than novelty, they better have a good reason for charging a $14 premium to other 1 ounce silver medals. If not, you guys can enjoy. I'll have to learn to live without.
@MtW124 said:
Most likely won’t sell out. The 2023’s are still available. My 2024’s arrived today. Not a speculator here, just a collector.
Where are 2023s available? Not from the US Mint!
That said, I agree that these won't sell out, at the same mintage but $15 higher. Especially not given opening sales, and the fact that they have now been available with no HHLs for several days and have not sold out.
@NJCoin said:
I just canceled all of my subscriptions for items that contain silver. I'm going to wait and see how these sell, and might be tempted to jump in if sales are anemic enough.
The only thing I will buy, regardless of price, will be the Flowing Hair medal, since that will be a one-off that I would just like to have.
They know you want the Flowing hair so it won't be $91.
Disappointed I was so far off on the demand for the proofs. They blew it on mintage and so there is a glut to this day. The legacy of the Morgan/Peace commems will hinge on that mistake and the immediate years following.
They have two choices to reclaim perceived value moving forward:
Dial back the mintages or reduce pricing.
Well, you have your answer with respect to pricing. And mintages will take care of themselves as sales fall off a cliff.
As far as Flowing Hair goes, I have to respectfully disagree. Morgan and Peace sell for right around the same price as ASEs, Liberty medals, etc. Flowing Hair will as well.
If you'll notice, they vary pricing slightly based on finish, but not based on subject. Based on the e-mail they sent, it is a near certainty that the Flowing Hair will be priced between $90-100, depending on the finish, no matter how many they make. The gold will be priced according to their grid.
Flowing Hair silver medal to be released this Fall will be priced at $104.
If it was a silver "coin" I would pay the money. Not for a medal.
I am passing on the 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars. I bought the 2023s for type and won’t need any more of them.
The mint had a big roped in area at the FUN show for dollar buyers, but the line never seemed to materialize.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
I am passing on the 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars. I bought the 2023s for type and won’t need any more of them.
The mint had a big roped in area at the FUN show for dollar buyers, but the line never seemed to materialize.
Because hope springs eternal. The roped off area was based on the line last year far exceeding expectations as they had a near instant sell out.
Not so much this year, as they have not yet fully digested the memo regarding the fact that numismatic premium to precious metal value shrinks, rather than rises, as the bullion value increases. They either don't care, or don't understand, that at a given mintage, demand for a coin with $27 worth of silver priced at $91 will be significantly less than for a coin with $20 worth of silver priced at $76.
They adjusted the price to reflect a $6-10 increase in the value of the metal, plus a very generous margin, without taking into account the reduced demand at that increased price. Moreover, they actually had the nerve to increase their margin at the same time, although the market dictates a reduced margin at higher precious metal prices.
They apparently think we are some sort of price insensitive junkies, and some of us probably are. But most of us work for a living, and resent being taken for granted, or taken advantage of.
And that's why these will sit at a $60+ premium to bullion value. Inflation in other production costs notwithstanding. If they cannot be made to sell at a price that makes sense to both collectors and the Mint, they shouldn't be made at all.
But that is far from the case here. They are just very optimistic, and very greedy. Hopefully they learn a lesson and drop prices in the future.
Because the alternative will be killing a lot of numismatic programs. And, once people lose interest, these things won't have value, no matter how few they produce. See the First Spouse program, or most modern commemoratives, for good examples of this.
Is the new flowing hair silver medal deemed a medal and not a coin because it will not have "one dollar" stamped on it? The original flowing hair dollar from 1794 did not have "one dollar" on it but back then it was still considered a dollar.
I received my 2 of each coin order today. Not buying 2 each again. Too much. Also not buy those stupid comic book coins that look like Nuie or New Zealand mint coins.
@mlittle said:
Is the new flowing hair silver medal deemed a medal and not a coin because it will not have "one dollar" stamped on it? The original flowing hair dollar from 1794 did not have "one dollar" on it but back then it was still considered a dollar.
That coin had "ONE DOLLAR or UNIT" around the edge. If this piece really is only a medal, technically it will be subject the state sales tax in Florida when a retailer goes to sell it, unless it's in a large quantity.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
I am passing on the 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars. I bought the 2023s for type and won’t need any more of them.
The mint had a big roped in area at the FUN show for dollar buyers, but the line never seemed to materialize.
Because hope springs eternal. The roped off area was based on the line last year far exceeding expectations as they had a near instant sell out.
Not so much this year, as they have not yet fully digested the memo regarding the fact that numismatic premium to precious metal value shrinks, rather than rises, as the bullion value increases. They either don't care, or don't understand, that at a given mintage, demand for a coin with $27 worth of silver priced at $91 will be significantly less than for a coin with $20 worth of silver priced at $76.
They adjusted the price to reflect a $6-10 increase in the value of the metal, plus a very generous margin, without taking into account the reduced demand at that increased price. Moreover, they actually had the nerve to increase their margin at the same time, although the market dictates a reduced margin at higher precious metal prices.
They apparently think we are some sort of price insensitive junkies, and some of us probably are. But most of work for a living and resent being taken for granted, or taken advantage of.
And that's why these will sit at a $60+ premium to bullion value. Inflation in other production costs notwithstanding. If they cannot be made to sell at a price that makes sense to both collectors and the Mint, they shouldn't be made at all.
But that is far from the case here. They are just very optimistic, and very greedy. Hopefully they learn a lesson and drop prices in the future.
Because the alternative will be killing a lot of numismatic programs. And, once people lose interest, these things won't have value, no matter how few they produce. See the First Spouse program, or most modern commemoratives, for good examples of this.
The mint has done the same thing with the silver Proof sets. They were already priced well above melt, and yet the mint saw fit to raise the price $20 when the bullion in them went up by maybe $12.
The set I got from the mint had a small mark on the half dollar and toning spot on the cent. Given the prices the mint charges, the grades should be PR-69 or 70. Quality control should be really high.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I bought 2 of each. they were delivered on Saturday. I buy 1 for a friend and I keep the 2nd. I've done this for all the new morgan and Peace dollar issues. They look super too.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
I spent 91$ at 5guys with the fam last night with less to show in the end than a 2024 peace dollar. Mine came in the mail and I like it. I have them all so I’m in it.
The entitlement to think the mint owes you a margin on new issues is baffling. Easy money is fun but shouldn’t be counted on and I don’t mind paying it to the mint opposed to a flipper.
@MtW124 said:
US Mint Cumulative sales are out for the 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars. 169,280 and 162,429
Edit: Morgan’s including 40 coin orders is 178,120.
Peace Dollars including 40 coin orders is 170,909.
To be honest, this is far lower than I thought it would be. I was looking for a 20% reduction is demand, mapping to the 20% increase in price. Which would have been 220K, and would have allowed them to more than cover their increased costs.
This way, they are spreading their increased costs, other than precious metal, plus overhead, over fewer units. Causing them to make a lot less than they did at the lower price.
They are not going to sell much more than this, and will likely never get to 200K. Way to go, US Mint, in killing a golden goose.
Last year they pocketed a $56 premium to precious metal content, 275K times, for a net of $15.4 million, on each of these, for $30.8 million. This year, to reflect inflation and production cost increases, made 171K times $64 on the Peace Dollars, for $10.9 million, plus 178K times $64 on the Morgans for $11.4 million, for a grand total of $22.3 million. Plus whatever they make going forward. Which will never, never, never hit $8.5 million
Nice. Way to run a business. Right into the ground.
Can't wait to see how they destroy the Flowing Hair product we have all been clamoring for.
If they were smart, they would reverse the price increase. Right now, and refund everyone who already bought these.
Otherwise, to create some excitement, they should consider reducing the proof and reverse proof mintages to 200K. But they won't do either.
@Crypto said:
I spent 91$ at 5guys with the fam last night with less to show in the end than a 2024 peace dollar. Mine came in the mail and I like it. I have them all so I’m in it.
The entitlement to think the mint owes you a margin on new issues is baffling. Easy money is fun but shouldn’t be counted on and I don’t mind paying it to the mint opposed to a flipper.
The Mint doesn't owe me squat. But, it works both ways, and I don't owe the Mint a subscription for 3, as I had in the past when I thought the coins delivered value.
I question the value of $91 for quick serve burgers and fries the same as $91 for a coin with 0.86 ounces of silver minted in a quantity of 275,000. Flippers aren't going to be getting $91 for these when the Mint has another 100K ready to go.
You do you. Congratulations on your purchase.
But the market has spoken. Last year, they sold 275K in a week or so at a $56 premium to $20 in precious metal value. This year, they sold less than 180K in around a week at a $64 premium to $27 in precious metal content.
Enjoy your burgers and peanuts. McDonald's is now selling 4 chicken nuggets, a double cheeseburger, fries and a drink for $5. You could feed 18 people for what you paid to take your family to 5 Guys, and it really does all come out the same when it has gone through your system. Again, you do you.
@MtW124 said: @NJCoin it will be interesting to see if the numbers trickle from this point forward.
Not even. We have a TON of data on how sales fare after the initial burst.
Trickle will be a generous description. They will have a ton of returns from people who did not cancel subscriptions in time, who don't like the price, or the fact that they are never going to sell out or do anything in the secondary market.
Final sales are not going to hit 200K. I think it's even money whether they even get to 190K. Which is crazy when you consider how many they sold last year.
As I said in a previous post, I thought they'd be interesting at $91 with a final mintage of 150K. But I never really expected them to do that poorly, and they haven't.
There is no value in these at this price with this maximum mintage. I can live without them. Let's see what happens next year, because I seriously doubt they are going to adjust either pricing or mintages on the remainder of this year's offerings.
My Peace dollars came in yesterday. The Morgans today. The mint used the clamshell cases on these. My only complaint that the backing that the coins are placed in area bit undersized. A VERY tight fit. I had to use a tool to pop the coin out. Couldn't even get my finger under the coin. I placed the coins back in but left plenty of room to be able to remove it.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
These bombed beyond belief. The collectors have spoken with their wallets. Maybe the Mint will learn a valuable lesson. Probably not. I wonder how many returns they will get in the next two weeks? I could see the sales figures in the negative column for the next month or so.
@Crypto said:
I spent 91$ at 5guys with the fam last night with less to show in the end than a 2024 peace dollar. Mine came in the mail and I like it. I have them all so I’m in it.
The entitlement to think the mint owes you a margin on new issues is baffling. Easy money is fun but shouldn’t be counted on and I don’t mind paying it to the mint opposed to a flipper.
The Mint doesn't owe me squat. But, it works both ways, and I don't owe the Mint a subscription for 3, as I had in the past when I thought the coins delivered value.
I question the value of $91 for quick serve burgers and fries the same as $91 for a coin with 0.86 ounces of silver minted in a quantity of 275,000. Flippers aren't going to be getting $91 for these when the Mint has another 100K ready to go.
You do you. Congratulations on your purchase.
But the market has spoken. Last year, they sold 275K in a week or so at a $56 premium to $20 in precious metal value. This year, they sold less than 180K in around a week at a $64 premium to $27 in precious metal content.
Enjoy your burgers and peanuts. McDonald's is now selling 4 chicken nuggets, a double cheeseburger, fries and a drink for $5. You could feed 18 people for what you paid to take your family to 5 Guys, and it really does all come out the same when it has gone through your system. Again, you do you.
But then i would have had to eat McDonald’s. There are always cheaper alternatives, you could buy peace dollar form Alibaba for cheaper if you don’t like paying up for quality. Me taking the fam to 5guys was cheaping out on dinner, it’s all perspective. Mine is no more right than yours but I couldn’t make a peace dollar for 91$. There is the value.
@Crypto said:
I spent 91$ at 5guys with the fam last night with less to show in the end than a 2024 peace dollar. Mine came in the mail and I like it. I have them all so I’m in it.
The entitlement to think the mint owes you a margin on new issues is baffling. Easy money is fun but shouldn’t be counted on and I don’t mind paying it to the mint opposed to a flipper.
The Mint doesn't owe me squat. But, it works both ways, and I don't owe the Mint a subscription for 3, as I had in the past when I thought the coins delivered value.
I question the value of $91 for quick serve burgers and fries the same as $91 for a coin with 0.86 ounces of silver minted in a quantity of 275,000. Flippers aren't going to be getting $91 for these when the Mint has another 100K ready to go.
You do you. Congratulations on your purchase.
But the market has spoken. Last year, they sold 275K in a week or so at a $56 premium to $20 in precious metal value. This year, they sold less than 180K in around a week at a $64 premium to $27 in precious metal content.
Enjoy your burgers and peanuts. McDonald's is now selling 4 chicken nuggets, a double cheeseburger, fries and a drink for $5. You could feed 18 people for what you paid to take your family to 5 Guys, and it really does all come out the same when it has gone through your system. Again, you do you.
But then i would have had to eat McDonald’s. There are always cheaper alternatives, you could buy peace dollar form Alibaba for cheaper if you don’t like paying up for quality. Me taking the fam to 5guys was cheaping out on dinner, it’s all perspective. Mine is no more right than yours but I couldn’t make a peace dollar for 91$. There is the value.
If you say so. Apparently, around 170K people agree.
In a market economy, the measure of value is not what something would cost us to do, or produce, that someone else could do more efficiently. Rather, it is what is reasonable in the market.
If $91 was as reasonable in this market as $76 was last year, the Mint would have sold 275K in less than a week. Didn't happen. Not even close. Enjoy your coins, and your burgers.
McDonald's seems to have built a somewhat successful business, so someone apparently does not mind eating there. Same with 5 Guys, but McDonald's is many, many, many, many times more successful, and makes many, many, many, many times more money for its franchisees and shareholders than 5 Guys, even though its family meal checks do not come close to the cheaping out $91 you gave 5 Guys.
Maybe the Mint should consider modeling McDonald's business practices, rather than 5 Guys. Unless the goal is not to maximize profits and distribution, but, instead, is to see just how much people will pay before killing demand altogether. How much more would you have enjoyed your 5 Guys meal if it cost $150? $200?
@NJCoin said:
Eventually they might even have another vault sale, like they did last year, to try to clear out some old crap.
Yeah, and that vault* sale will probably be full of returns from people that didn't read their email and see the price increase of the subscription at the last minute. I got a couple things from that vault sale last year and 1 of them was an obvious return.
I figure they won't even get close to selling what they HAVE made for the subscriptions and big boys. I can't imagine they will let that much silver sit on their shelves (the oh-so-expensive silver that we must jack prices up for). Especially when great numismatic collections are to be made with the impending DC comics series .
*somewhat scared to include the word "vault" in a post. lol
@Manorcourtman said:
These bombed beyond belief. The collectors have spoken with their wallets. Maybe the Mint will learn a valuable lesson. Probably not. I wonder how many returns they will get in the next two weeks? I could see the sales figures in the negative column for the next month or so.
How many things did you sell 175,000 of this week? That's hardly "bombed beyond belief".
@Crypto said:
I spent 91$ at 5guys with the fam last night with less to show in the end than a 2024 peace dollar. Mine came in the mail and I like it. I have them all so I’m in it.
The entitlement to think the mint owes you a margin on new issues is baffling. Easy money is fun but shouldn’t be counted on and I don’t mind paying it to the mint opposed to a flipper.
The Mint doesn't owe me squat. But, it works both ways, and I don't owe the Mint a subscription for 3, as I had in the past when I thought the coins delivered value.
I question the value of $91 for quick serve burgers and fries the same as $91 for a coin with 0.86 ounces of silver minted in a quantity of 275,000. Flippers aren't going to be getting $91 for these when the Mint has another 100K ready to go.
You do you. Congratulations on your purchase.
But the market has spoken. Last year, they sold 275K in a week or so at a $56 premium to $20 in precious metal value. This year, they sold less than 180K in around a week at a $64 premium to $27 in precious metal content.
Enjoy your burgers and peanuts. McDonald's is now selling 4 chicken nuggets, a double cheeseburger, fries and a drink for $5. You could feed 18 people for what you paid to take your family to 5 Guys, and it really does all come out the same when it has gone through your system. Again, you do you.
I think it's simplistic to think it's just a price point issue. 1st year releases, for example, always sell more than later years. While it's likely they would sell a few more at a lower price, I doubt they would sell the same number as last year at the same price.
So now I'm wondering....you put 99 in your cart, the total is $9009.00 The line right before that total says, "Add gift box/wrapping for $4.95" Would that be $4.95 for all 99 gift wrapped or would that be $4.95 each adding another $490.05 ??
@Manorcourtman said:
These bombed beyond belief. The collectors have spoken with their wallets. Maybe the Mint will learn a valuable lesson. Probably not. I wonder how many returns they will get in the next two weeks? I could see the sales figures in the negative column for the next month or so.
How many things did you sell 175,000 of this week? That's hardly "bombed beyond belief".
Ehh. At the risk of disturbing our love fest, and with all due respect, if they were expecting to sell 175K the first week, they would not have set the mintage at 275K.
They either over reached in their greedy $15 price increase, as though their $56 margin over spot last year could not have absorbed whatever production cost increases they are experiencing, or in not reducing the mintage to something that would make the $91 price point attractive.
As a result, yes, relatively speaking, these are a bomb, with sales of a very popular, highly iconic design right around 65% of the maximum mintage. Not to mention, as I pointed out in an earlier post, they actually grossed less over the cost of the precious metal, and also have fewer units over which to spread their fixed costs, at the higher price point with the lower sales.
Maybe a win as compared to how many units of anything the Royal Canadian Mint, or the Perth Mint, can push out the door, but a big fat fail for the US Mint, if maximizing sales and profit is an objective.
I got stuck with one of each because I didn't act fast enough to cancel. But if this program is as big a failure as some say it is, the mintage will end up being relatively low.
@Crypto said:
I spent 91$ at 5guys with the fam last night with less to show in the end than a 2024 peace dollar. Mine came in the mail and I like it. I have them all so I’m in it.
The entitlement to think the mint owes you a margin on new issues is baffling. Easy money is fun but shouldn’t be counted on and I don’t mind paying it to the mint opposed to a flipper.
The Mint doesn't owe me squat. But, it works both ways, and I don't owe the Mint a subscription for 3, as I had in the past when I thought the coins delivered value.
I question the value of $91 for quick serve burgers and fries the same as $91 for a coin with 0.86 ounces of silver minted in a quantity of 275,000. Flippers aren't going to be getting $91 for these when the Mint has another 100K ready to go.
You do you. Congratulations on your purchase.
But the market has spoken. Last year, they sold 275K in a week or so at a $56 premium to $20 in precious metal value. This year, they sold less than 180K in around a week at a $64 premium to $27 in precious metal content.
Enjoy your burgers and peanuts. McDonald's is now selling 4 chicken nuggets, a double cheeseburger, fries and a drink for $5. You could feed 18 people for what you paid to take your family to 5 Guys, and it really does all come out the same when it has gone through your system. Again, you do you.
I think it's simplistic to think it's just a price point issue. 1st year releases, for example, always sell more than later years. While it's likely they would sell a few more at a lower price, I doubt they would sell the same number as last year at the same price.
Well, last year was not the first year. So, there's that. But, more importantly, the art is in setting the price, and the mintage, at points that produce desirability without artificially constraining sales.
Selling 100K at $50 would crash the website, generate excess profits for flippers, and literally cost the Mint millions in lost revenue. Trying to sell 275K at $91 clearly has the opposite effect, as evidenced by my analysis in my prior post.
I am actually pretty damn sure they could have sold 275K at $76, given the rise in the price of silver since last year. The shame is that they would have had an extra $4,650,000 to go towards their increased production costs than they have now ($49*550K as compared to what they made with the higher premium and lower sales).
This is the literal definition of greed, and a classic example of choking a golden goose in order to see how much force is required to kill it. 175K at $91 with $27 worth of silver is not better for anyone than 275K at $76 with $20 worth of silver, or even 275K at $76 with $27 worth of silver.
If maximizing revenue was as simple as just raising prices, they'd price them at $200. Or $104, like the Flowing Hair product. Just watch and see how they destroy that, unless silver jumps over $40 between now and when they release them.
@JBK said:
I got stuck with one of each because I didn't act fast enough to cancel. But if this program is as big a failure as some say it is, the mintage will end up being relatively low.
Yup. But not low enough. As people get disgusted and lose interest, 175K will look pretty high in a few years.
@Manorcourtman said:
These bombed beyond belief. The collectors have spoken with their wallets. Maybe the Mint will learn a valuable lesson. Probably not. I wonder how many returns they will get in the next two weeks? I could see the sales figures in the negative column for the next month or so.
How many things did you sell 175,000 of this week? That's hardly "bombed beyond belief".
Ehh. At the risk of disturbing our love fest, and with all due respect, if they were expecting to sell 175K the first week, they would not have set the mintage at 275K.
They either over reached in their greedy $15 price increase, as though their $56 margin over spot last year could not have absorbed whatever production cost increases they are experiencing, or in not reducing the mintage to something that would make the $91 price point attractive.
As a result, yes, relatively speaking, these are a bomb, with sales of a very popular, highly iconic design right around 65% of the maximum mintage. Not to mention, as I pointed out in an earlier post, they actually grossed less over the cost of the precious metal, and also have fewer units over which to spread their fixed costs, at the higher price point with the lower sales.
Maybe a win as compared to how many units of anything the Royal Canadian Mint, or the Perth Mint, can push out the door, but a big fat fail for the US Mint, if maximizing sales and profit is an objective.
"Disappointing" isn't synonymous with "bombed beyond belief".
@Manorcourtman said:
These bombed beyond belief. The collectors have spoken with their wallets. Maybe the Mint will learn a valuable lesson. Probably not. I wonder how many returns they will get in the next two weeks? I could see the sales figures in the negative True!!!column for the next month or so.
How many things did you sell 175,000 of this week? That's hardly "bombed beyond belief".
Ehh. At the risk of disturbing our love fest, and with all due respect, if they were expecting to sell 175K the first week, they would not have set the mintage at 275K.
They either over reached in their greedy $15 price increase, as though their $56 margin over spot last year could not have absorbed whatever production cost increases they are experiencing, or in not reducing the mintage to something that would make the $91 price point attractive.
As a result, yes, relatively speaking, these are a bomb, with sales of a very popular, highly iconic design right around 65% of the maximum mintage. Not to mention, as I pointed out in an earlier post, they actually grossed less over the cost of the precious metal, and also have fewer units over which to spread their fixed costs, at the higher price point with the lower sales.
Maybe a win as compared to how many units of anything the Royal Canadian Mint, or the Perth Mint, can push out the door, but a big fat fail for the US Mint, if maximizing sales and profit is an objective.
"Disappointing" isn't synonymous with "bombed beyond belief".
True!!! Bombed beyond belief was certainly not my phrasing. As I said before, I'd have been interested at $91 with a mintage of 150K, so even that would not have been beyond belief to me.
OTOH, I'd have to think 175K on 275K, times two, is more than just disappointing, and might be evidence of the higher ups at the Mint not really having a handle on how pricing impacts demand, and on how there is a market they need to live in that extends beyond their four walls. Anyone at the Mint who cannot recognize that the Mint left millions of dollars on the table by raising the price by $15, at the expense of 100K units sold, times two, really does need to be fired immediately.
IMO The US mint doesn’t care about us. So why would they change strategy. They probably don’t pay attention to us at all when making decisions. That’s my two cents.
@MtW124 said:
IMO The US mint doesn’t care about us. So why would they change strategy. They probably don’t pay attention to us at all when making decisions. That’s my two cents.
Of course they don't care about us! We are a means to an end. And, as far as the numismatic program goes, that end is making as much money as possible.
As I noted above, they made far less selling 175K coins at $91 this year than they made last year selling 275K at $76. Or, that they would have made selling 275K this year at $76, even given the increase in the price of silver.
You can bet it is someone's job at the Mint to care about that!!! THAT is why they might change course, although I am not sure they are smart enough to do so. It's also difficult for people in positions of power to admit when they are wrong.
Comments
At $95 for the Peace proof, I am really tempted to cancel, but will so many cancel that this will be a potential upside? One never knows, but I've paid more for coins in worse shape. I may keep it.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Box
The mint will keep milking this as long as it continues to sell but as I stated in another thread, we dropped our subs for these. No money in it, plus we're getting more and more complaints about the price increases.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
How many novice buyers have loaded up on "ASE's" from online sources? Especially the ones that sell for $19.99 plus buy 10 and get 5 free. We can only guess the damage done to the hobby when these people find out the true value of their coin "investments."
Flowing Hair silver medal to be released this Fall will be priced at $104.
IMO, the Morgan and Peace dollars are among the most classic, beautiful coins, and I will continue to collect them annually. However, I did cancel a couple of my other silver subscriptions.
I do think that after 38 years, it may be time to retire the ASE. I still buy the uncirculated and proof finishes, but I may soon stop because I’m getting tired of them. And I am REALLY sick of all the slabbed versions signed by Mercanti. That guy has really prostituted himself (for tons of money, of course).
My Peace Dollar arrived today. Nice coin.
Most likely won’t sell out. The 2023’s are still available. My 2024’s arrived today. Not a speculator here, just a collector.
Total P-I-G-S!!!! As much as I was looking forward to it, given that it's not even a coin, I very well might take a pass, depending on mintage. I see they have a HHL of 5. Have they announced the mintage?
Because, other than novelty, they better have a good reason for charging a $14 premium to other 1 ounce silver medals. If not, you guys can enjoy. I'll have to learn to live without.
Where are 2023s available? Not from the US Mint!
That said, I agree that these won't sell out, at the same mintage but $15 higher. Especially not given opening sales, and the fact that they have now been available with no HHLs for several days and have not sold out.
https://catalog.usmint.gov/morgan-silver-dollar-2023-proof-coin-23XF.html
Edit : You are right in regards to the unc’s. They are unavailable.
If it was a silver "coin" I would pay the money. Not for a medal.
Anybody still in the "waiting room" ?? Wow, they are still available!!!
The unc's are not available....but the proofs are!!
UGH!
I am passing on the 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars. I bought the 2023s for type and won’t need any more of them.
The mint had a big roped in area at the FUN show for dollar buyers, but the line never seemed to materialize.
Right. Bound to happen when the mintage goes from 275K to 400K.
Because hope springs eternal. The roped off area was based on the line last year far exceeding expectations as they had a near instant sell out.
Not so much this year, as they have not yet fully digested the memo regarding the fact that numismatic premium to precious metal value shrinks, rather than rises, as the bullion value increases. They either don't care, or don't understand, that at a given mintage, demand for a coin with $27 worth of silver priced at $91 will be significantly less than for a coin with $20 worth of silver priced at $76.
They adjusted the price to reflect a $6-10 increase in the value of the metal, plus a very generous margin, without taking into account the reduced demand at that increased price. Moreover, they actually had the nerve to increase their margin at the same time, although the market dictates a reduced margin at higher precious metal prices.
They apparently think we are some sort of price insensitive junkies, and some of us probably are. But most of us work for a living, and resent being taken for granted, or taken advantage of.
And that's why these will sit at a $60+ premium to bullion value. Inflation in other production costs notwithstanding. If they cannot be made to sell at a price that makes sense to both collectors and the Mint, they shouldn't be made at all.
But that is far from the case here. They are just very optimistic, and very greedy. Hopefully they learn a lesson and drop prices in the future.
Because the alternative will be killing a lot of numismatic programs. And, once people lose interest, these things won't have value, no matter how few they produce. See the First Spouse program, or most modern commemoratives, for good examples of this.
US Mint Cumulative sales are out for the 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars. 169,280 and 162,429
Edit: Morgan’s including 40 coin orders is 178,120.
Peace Dollars including 40 coin orders is 170,909.
Is the new flowing hair silver medal deemed a medal and not a coin because it will not have "one dollar" stamped on it? The original flowing hair dollar from 1794 did not have "one dollar" on it but back then it was still considered a dollar.
I received my 2 of each coin order today. Not buying 2 each again. Too much. Also not buy those stupid comic book coins that look like Nuie or New Zealand mint coins.
That coin had "ONE DOLLAR or UNIT" around the edge. If this piece really is only a medal, technically it will be subject the state sales tax in Florida when a retailer goes to sell it, unless it's in a large quantity.
The mint has done the same thing with the silver Proof sets. They were already priced well above melt, and yet the mint saw fit to raise the price $20 when the bullion in them went up by maybe $12.
The set I got from the mint had a small mark on the half dollar and toning spot on the cent. Given the prices the mint charges, the grades should be PR-69 or 70. Quality control should be really high.
I bought 2 of each. they were delivered on Saturday. I buy 1 for a friend and I keep the 2nd. I've done this for all the new morgan and Peace dollar issues. They look super too.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
My one Morgan arrived today. Nice coin.
I spent 91$ at 5guys with the fam last night with less to show in the end than a 2024 peace dollar. Mine came in the mail and I like it. I have them all so I’m in it.
The entitlement to think the mint owes you a margin on new issues is baffling. Easy money is fun but shouldn’t be counted on and I don’t mind paying it to the mint opposed to a flipper.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
To be honest, this is far lower than I thought it would be. I was looking for a 20% reduction is demand, mapping to the 20% increase in price. Which would have been 220K, and would have allowed them to more than cover their increased costs.
This way, they are spreading their increased costs, other than precious metal, plus overhead, over fewer units. Causing them to make a lot less than they did at the lower price.
They are not going to sell much more than this, and will likely never get to 200K. Way to go, US Mint, in killing a golden goose.
Last year they pocketed a $56 premium to precious metal content, 275K times, for a net of $15.4 million, on each of these, for $30.8 million. This year, to reflect inflation and production cost increases, made 171K times $64 on the Peace Dollars, for $10.9 million, plus 178K times $64 on the Morgans for $11.4 million, for a grand total of $22.3 million. Plus whatever they make going forward. Which will never, never, never hit $8.5 million
Nice. Way to run a business. Right into the ground.
Can't wait to see how they destroy the Flowing Hair product we have all been clamoring for.
If they were smart, they would reverse the price increase. Right now, and refund everyone who already bought these.
Otherwise, to create some excitement, they should consider reducing the proof and reverse proof mintages to 200K. But they won't do either.
@NJCoin it will be interesting to see if the numbers trickle from this point forward.
The Mint doesn't owe me squat. But, it works both ways, and I don't owe the Mint a subscription for 3, as I had in the past when I thought the coins delivered value.
I question the value of $91 for quick serve burgers and fries the same as $91 for a coin with 0.86 ounces of silver minted in a quantity of 275,000. Flippers aren't going to be getting $91 for these when the Mint has another 100K ready to go.
You do you. Congratulations on your purchase.
But the market has spoken. Last year, they sold 275K in a week or so at a $56 premium to $20 in precious metal value. This year, they sold less than 180K in around a week at a $64 premium to $27 in precious metal content.
Enjoy your burgers and peanuts. McDonald's is now selling 4 chicken nuggets, a double cheeseburger, fries and a drink for $5. You could feed 18 people for what you paid to take your family to 5 Guys, and it really does all come out the same when it has gone through your system. Again, you do you.
Not even. We have a TON of data on how sales fare after the initial burst.
Trickle will be a generous description. They will have a ton of returns from people who did not cancel subscriptions in time, who don't like the price, or the fact that they are never going to sell out or do anything in the secondary market.
Final sales are not going to hit 200K. I think it's even money whether they even get to 190K. Which is crazy when you consider how many they sold last year.
As I said in a previous post, I thought they'd be interesting at $91 with a final mintage of 150K. But I never really expected them to do that poorly, and they haven't.
There is no value in these at this price with this maximum mintage. I can live without them. Let's see what happens next year, because I seriously doubt they are going to adjust either pricing or mintages on the remainder of this year's offerings.
My Peace dollars came in yesterday. The Morgans today. The mint used the clamshell cases on these. My only complaint that the backing that the coins are placed in area bit undersized. A VERY tight fit. I had to use a tool to pop the coin out. Couldn't even get my finger under the coin. I placed the coins back in but left plenty of room to be able to remove it.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
Don't worry about the price....silver will go up more and the mint will raise the prices
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Only 100K more of each to go.
Uncs Household limits off. I tried to add 100 of each to cart but they only allowed 99 each:
These bombed beyond belief. The collectors have spoken with their wallets. Maybe the Mint will learn a valuable lesson. Probably not. I wonder how many returns they will get in the next two weeks? I could see the sales figures in the negative column for the next month or so.
I like them! I plan on buying 1 of each issue as well as the proofs this year and in the years ahead.
But then i would have had to eat McDonald’s. There are always cheaper alternatives, you could buy peace dollar form Alibaba for cheaper if you don’t like paying up for quality. Me taking the fam to 5guys was cheaping out on dinner, it’s all perspective. Mine is no more right than yours but I couldn’t make a peace dollar for 91$. There is the value.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
If you say so. Apparently, around 170K people agree.
In a market economy, the measure of value is not what something would cost us to do, or produce, that someone else could do more efficiently. Rather, it is what is reasonable in the market.
If $91 was as reasonable in this market as $76 was last year, the Mint would have sold 275K in less than a week. Didn't happen. Not even close. Enjoy your coins, and your burgers.
McDonald's seems to have built a somewhat successful business, so someone apparently does not mind eating there. Same with 5 Guys, but McDonald's is many, many, many, many times more successful, and makes many, many, many, many times more money for its franchisees and shareholders than 5 Guys, even though its family meal checks do not come close to the cheaping out $91 you gave 5 Guys.
Maybe the Mint should consider modeling McDonald's business practices, rather than 5 Guys. Unless the goal is not to maximize profits and distribution, but, instead, is to see just how much people will pay before killing demand altogether. How much more would you have enjoyed your 5 Guys meal if it cost $150? $200?
Box> @Mr Lindy said:
The limit almost always comes off after 24 hours. The cart only allows 99 items. That's also normal.
How many things did you sell 175,000 of this week? That's hardly "bombed beyond belief".
I think it's simplistic to think it's just a price point issue. 1st year releases, for example, always sell more than later years. While it's likely they would sell a few more at a lower price, I doubt they would sell the same number as last year at the same price.
Thoroughly disgusted with the program right now for a multitude of reasons.
So now I'm wondering....you put 99 in your cart, the total is $9009.00 The line right before that total says, "Add gift box/wrapping for $4.95" Would that be $4.95 for all 99 gift wrapped or would that be $4.95 each adding another $490.05 ??
Ehh. At the risk of disturbing our love fest, and with all due respect, if they were expecting to sell 175K the first week, they would not have set the mintage at 275K.
They either over reached in their greedy $15 price increase, as though their $56 margin over spot last year could not have absorbed whatever production cost increases they are experiencing, or in not reducing the mintage to something that would make the $91 price point attractive.
As a result, yes, relatively speaking, these are a bomb, with sales of a very popular, highly iconic design right around 65% of the maximum mintage. Not to mention, as I pointed out in an earlier post, they actually grossed less over the cost of the precious metal, and also have fewer units over which to spread their fixed costs, at the higher price point with the lower sales.
Maybe a win as compared to how many units of anything the Royal Canadian Mint, or the Perth Mint, can push out the door, but a big fat fail for the US Mint, if maximizing sales and profit is an objective.
I got stuck with one of each because I didn't act fast enough to cancel. But if this program is as big a failure as some say it is, the mintage will end up being relatively low.
Well, last year was not the first year. So, there's that. But, more importantly, the art is in setting the price, and the mintage, at points that produce desirability without artificially constraining sales.
Selling 100K at $50 would crash the website, generate excess profits for flippers, and literally cost the Mint millions in lost revenue. Trying to sell 275K at $91 clearly has the opposite effect, as evidenced by my analysis in my prior post.
I am actually pretty damn sure they could have sold 275K at $76, given the rise in the price of silver since last year. The shame is that they would have had an extra $4,650,000 to go towards their increased production costs than they have now ($49*550K as compared to what they made with the higher premium and lower sales).
This is the literal definition of greed, and a classic example of choking a golden goose in order to see how much force is required to kill it. 175K at $91 with $27 worth of silver is not better for anyone than 275K at $76 with $20 worth of silver, or even 275K at $76 with $27 worth of silver.
If maximizing revenue was as simple as just raising prices, they'd price them at $200. Or $104, like the Flowing Hair product. Just watch and see how they destroy that, unless silver jumps over $40 between now and when they release them.
Yup. But not low enough. As people get disgusted and lose interest, 175K will look pretty high in a few years.
Exact same scenario here, so ended up with two of each (Morgan & Peace) which came in the mail on Monday and have not opened the boxes yet.
Hopefully the subscription stays cancelled and don't have anymore surprises in the future.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
"Disappointing" isn't synonymous with "bombed beyond belief".
True!!! Bombed beyond belief was certainly not my phrasing. As I said before, I'd have been interested at $91 with a mintage of 150K, so even that would not have been beyond belief to me.
OTOH, I'd have to think 175K on 275K, times two, is more than just disappointing, and might be evidence of the higher ups at the Mint not really having a handle on how pricing impacts demand, and on how there is a market they need to live in that extends beyond their four walls. Anyone at the Mint who cannot recognize that the Mint left millions of dollars on the table by raising the price by $15, at the expense of 100K units sold, times two, really does need to be fired immediately.
IMO The US mint doesn’t care about us. So why would they change strategy. They probably don’t pay attention to us at all when making decisions. That’s my two cents.
Of course they don't care about us! We are a means to an end. And, as far as the numismatic program goes, that end is making as much money as possible.
As I noted above, they made far less selling 175K coins at $91 this year than they made last year selling 275K at $76. Or, that they would have made selling 275K this year at $76, even given the increase in the price of silver.
You can bet it is someone's job at the Mint to care about that!!! THAT is why they might change course, although I am not sure they are smart enough to do so. It's also difficult for people in positions of power to admit when they are wrong.