I received my coins several days ago and the quality of both the Morgan and the Peace dollars were atrocious. The Peace dollars have small hits on the her neck, the eagles wings and legs and also the rays. The Morgans also have numerous small marks and scratches. I must have mistakenly ordered the mints "bagmarked" edition coins. Returning all.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Honestly, these are a dumpster fire put out by urine. How on Earth did they sell even 175k examples? I think they - the US Mint are truly amazing, or at least their following. I wonder what it would price wise & mintinwise it would take to kill the golden goose?
All of these testimonials (including mine) about cancelling subscriptions likely don't amount to much of anything to them & even sales drops - perhaps this is part of a bigger plan to scale back operations numismatically. Maybe that is giving them too much credit?
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@MtW124 said:
IMO The US mint doesn’t care about us. So why would they change strategy. They probably don’t pay attention to us at all when making decisions. That’s my two cents.
Of course they don't care about us! We are a means to an end. And, as far as the numismatic program goes, that end is making as much money as possible.
As I noted above, they made far less selling 175K coins at $91 this year than they made last year selling 275K at $76. Or, that they would have made selling 275K this year at $76, even given the increase in the price of silver.
You can bet it is someone's job at the Mint to care about that!!! THAT is why they might change course, although I am not sure they are smart enough to do so. It's also difficult for people in positions of power to admit when they are wrong.
You must not be aware of how the government works. They do not operate as a for profit business. Don't forget the government has bought $760 plastic toilet seats and $460 ($10) hammers.
@MtW124 said:
IMO The US mint doesn’t care about us. So why would they change strategy. They probably don’t pay attention to us at all when making decisions. That’s my two cents.
Of course they don't care about us! We are a means to an end. And, as far as the numismatic program goes, that end is making as much money as possible.
As I noted above, they made far less selling 175K coins at $91 this year than they made last year selling 275K at $76. Or, that they would have made selling 275K this year at $76, even given the increase in the price of silver.
You can bet it is someone's job at the Mint to care about that!!! THAT is why they might change course, although I am not sure they are smart enough to do so. It's also difficult for people in positions of power to admit when they are wrong.
You must not be aware of how the government works. They do not operate as a for profit business. Don't forget the government has bought $760 plastic toilet seats and $460 ($10) hammers.
😂 Oh, I am quite aware of how the government works. But the whole idea the past several years behind jacking up prices, modernizing the website, and modulating mintage to satisfy demand at a given price point was specifically to run the numismatic program more like a for profit business.
And, to a large degree, they succeeded, insofar as we can now buy what we want, directly from the Mint, without fighting off bots or paying scalper prices in the secondary market. Flippers were pissed off, but everyone else was okay, and the Mint began capturing excess profits previously made by the flippers for itself.
All good, up until now, when they over reached. Hopefully they fix it.
@7Jaguars said:
Honestly, these are a dumpster fire put out by urine. How on Earth did they sell even 175k examples? I think they - the US Mint are truly amazing, or at least their following. I wonder what it would price wise & mintinwise it would take to kill the golden goose?
All of these testimonials (including mine) about cancelling subscriptions likely don't amount to much of anything to them & even sales drops - perhaps this is part of a bigger plan to scale back operations numismatically. Maybe that is giving them too much credit?
They sold 175K because they are still official US Mint products containing popular, iconic designs minted in limited quantities. That said, 175K is HUGE come down from 275K sold last year, so don't think that selling them at $91 when spot silver is trading around $29 did not set them on the path of killing the goose.
Yes, you are giving them too much credit. They don't need your permission, or mine, to scale back numismatic operations, or end them altogether.
While they are running a numismatic operation, however, the goal is certainly to maximize revenue and collector access to product, not to jack up prices to the point where they barely sell half of their maximum mintage and generate less profit than they would have achieved selling more at a lower price point.
To my eyes, this is nothing more than a good old fashioned screw up. As evidenced by the fact that I was not alone in canceling. And this is after I swallowed every prior price increase.
And even cheered them on, arguing that the Mint did not owe me an instant profit on my purchases. My only point always was, and continues to be, that the Mint has to deliver value. That is not defined by selling something for $50 in a quantity that leads the item to immediately sell on eBay for $150. But is also surely not defined by selling something for $91, where half the mintage remains at the Mint waiting to be claimed.
Setting the mintage at 275K, and selling them all in short order at $76, with everyone who wanted them being able to get as many as they wanted, achieved the perfect balance. They sold as many as the market could absorb at a given price, which allowed them to hold their value. They should not have messed with that just because inflation and the spot price of silver caused their production costs to increase.
They made plenty of money last year at $76, and would have made plenty more this year at the same price. Instead, they got greedy and decided to not only capture all of their increased costs, but even build in additional margin.
And the result is that they sold around 100K fewer of each item, with additional reductions to come across the board on all of their other silver products, because the market reaction is certainly not going to be limited to this one item. This is going to cause them to make far less than if they just left the price alone and ate the additional production costs.
But don't think for a minute that any of this was intentional, to scale back anything. It was nothing more than arrogance and stupidity.
I was on the fence just for the Peace proof at the old price , with the price increase I canceled my subscription. I’ll buy it at the LCS in a few years for less than the mint prices (if it’s higher no loss as I won’t get it). I think like modern comms the US Mint will kill this series.
@Luxor said:
I received my coins several days ago and the quality of both the Morgan and the Peace dollars were atrocious. The Peace dollars have small hits on the her neck, the eagles wings and legs and also the rays. The Morgans also have numerous small marks and scratches. I must have mistakenly ordered the mints "bagmarked" edition coins. Returning all.
This is why I quit buying these from the mint and cancelled all my subscriptions. I have had similar issues with the dubious mint quality in the past.
I bought one of each graded in MS70 for $275 which is $137.50 each on eBay. Considering the $91 initial price, plus first strike, handling, grading and shipping fees both ways, that is a bargain if you want to collect these in a PCGS set.
@MtW124 said:
Cumulative sales from this weeks posting has been updated this morning.
Looks like they are flying out the door, as compared to last week's numbers. 😂
We can officially put a fork in these, unless the Mint comes to its senses and drops the price back to where it was last year. Which will never, ever happen.
EDIT: I just went back and checked. These are the exact same numbers your posted last week, so something isn't right. Either they have not yet updated, OR last week's numbers updated early. Either way, this is zero change on all 4 numbers, so it's not an update.
EDIT: I just went back and checked. These are the exact same numbers your posted last week, so something isn't right. Either they have not yet updated, OR last week's numbers updated early. Either way, this is zero change on all 4 numbers, so it's not an update.
I see that. Most weeks the new numbers are up by now. I will check again later and see if it changes. Thanks for the heads up.
Edit: yes they have not been updated as of yet today. The date still says 7-14-2024.
@Mr Lindy said:
In the meantime, I got this email today:
That's a good price
Which tells you what, two weeks after the on sale date?
People were bragging about locking in $300 before an increase to $330 to reflect the Mint's price increase. At the time, I told people that's great, now let's see if people bite at the increased price. Otherwise, $300 wouldn't be such a deal.
Looks like we have our answer. People are not chasing them regardless of price. $285 is good compared to $182 raw, but not so good compared to last year's good price, which, as I recall, was $250.
Despite people complaining about quality on this forum, these coins tend to grade very well, and the Big Boys know that from their Advance Release submissions. That's why they didn't get hurt last year, and why they won't get hurt now.
But, they are sure going to have to be happy with less if they don't get cleaned out at $285. Which they apparently are not.
My understanding is that their bulk grading fee for 70s is around $10 per coin. That's what makes the math work for them, but they are going to make $15 per coin less than last year if people balk at the increased price. Which seems to be the case. Not only because the Mint still has 100K of each for sale, but because these did not sell out at aggressive prices pre-release, like they did last year at several vendors.
I just asked my LCS and they already got 2 (2024's) in, they offered under the selling price. I don't believe the 2024 will appreciate in value. The 2023 they are offering $50 for each.
@Mr Lindy said:
In the meantime, I got this email today:
When you factor in base coin costs and slabbing fees, it’s not really a bad deal to guarantee 70’s. If that’s what you’re looking for. Not for me though. Makes me wonder if they just wanna blow them out and be done with them. No near or long term upside.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@Mr Lindy said:
In the meantime, I got this email today:
When you factor in base coin costs and slabbing fees, it’s not really a bad deal to guarantee 70’s. If that’s what you’re looking for. Not for me though. Makes me wonder if they just wanna blow them out and be done with them. No near or long term upside.
Yes. That's the whole point. My point is that $285, with raw coins being offered by the Mint for $91, is the equivalent of $250 with raw coins offered at $76.
Except, they flew off the shelves last year at $250. Not so much this year at $285. It shows resistance to the higher prices. They were always priced to sell. At the higher prices, though, they don't seem to be selling. At least not two weeks after release, at the same dealer margin as last year.
Stay tuned. These have nowhere to go but down. The Mint is offering too many, at too high a price. The market has to find its equilibrium.
$285 for a set of 2 MS70s is great at $91 raw. But where is it written that $91 is FMV? Just because the Mint says so? If that was the case, they'd be sold out, like they were this time last year at $76.
@Mr Lindy said:
In the meantime, I got this email today:
When you factor in base coin costs and slabbing fees, it’s not really a bad deal to guarantee 70’s. If that’s what you’re looking for. Not for me though. Makes me wonder if they just wanna blow them out and be done with them. No near or long term upside.
Yes. That's the whole point. My point is that $285, with raw coins being offered by the Mint for $91, is the equivalent of $250 with raw coins offered at $76.
Except, they flew off the shelves last year at $250. Not so much this year at $285. It shows resistance to the higher prices. They were always priced to sell. At the higher prices, though, they don't seem to be selling. At least not two weeks after release, at the same dealer margin as last year.
Stay tuned. These have nowhere to go but down. The Mint is offering too many, at too high a price. The market has to find its equilibrium.
$285 for a set of 2 MS70s is great at $91 raw. But where is it written that $91 is FMV? Just because the Mint says so? If that was the case, they'd be sold out, like they were this time last year at $76.
Oh yeah, we’re on the same page for sure. Couldn’t agree more. Last thing I’d add is that from my vantage point the economy is really tightening up. Especially amongst the “middle class.” Disposable income has been getting less and less the last few years and I’m pretty sure these would be items people put to the top of the chopping block - especially at these prices.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@MtW124 said:
IMO The US mint doesn’t care about us. So why would they change strategy. They probably don’t pay attention to us at all when making decisions. That’s my two cents.
Of course they don't care about us! We are a means to an end. And, as far as the numismatic program goes, that end is making as much money as possible.
As I noted above, they made far less selling 175K coins at $91 this year than they made last year selling 275K at $76. Or, that they would have made selling 275K this year at $76, even given the increase in the price of silver.
You can bet it is someone's job at the Mint to care about that!!! THAT is why they might change course, although I am not sure they are smart enough to do so. It's also difficult for people in positions of power to admit when they are wrong.
You must not be aware of how the government works. They do not operate as a for profit business. Don't forget the government has bought $760 plastic toilet seats and $460 ($10) hammers.
😂 Oh, I am quite aware of how the government works. But the whole idea the past several years behind jacking up prices, modernizing the website, and modulating mintage to satisfy demand at a given price point was specifically to run the numismatic program more like a for profit business.
And, to a large degree, they succeeded, insofar as we can now buy what we want, directly from the Mint, without fighting off bots or paying scalper prices in the secondary market. Flippers were pissed off, but everyone else was okay, and the Mint began capturing excess profits previously made by the flippers for itself.
All good, up until now, when they over reached. Hopefully they fix it.
After what has happened with the '23s they are not learning. Maybe they need a machine learning program in the marketing department. Now they are loosing big orders from big bullion and coin dealers on the new issues because of previous overproduction. They are jeopardizing the viability of ongoing collector interest as well. well we warned them, lead the horse to water......
Canceled my proof subscription today. Had 3 of each on order. I am keeping my reverse proof order just because I like the look. I see these uncs and proofs going nowhere in the future if the mint stays on this course. I will buy one of each proof 70 slabbed when those come out.
@Mr Lindy said:
In the meantime, I got this email today:
That's a good price
Which tells you what, two weeks after the on sale date?
People were bragging about locking in $300 before an increase to $330 to reflect the Mint's price increase. At the time, I told people that's great, now let's see if people bite at the increased price. Otherwise, $300 wouldn't be such a deal.
Looks like we have our answer. People are not chasing them regardless of price. $285 is good compared to $182 raw, but not so good compared to last year's good price, which, as I recall, was $250.
Despite people complaining about quality on this forum, these coins tend to grade very well, and the Big Boys know that from their Advance Release submissions. That's why they didn't get hurt last year, and why they won't get hurt now.
But, they are sure going to have to be happy with less if they don't get cleaned out at $285. Which they apparently are not.
My understanding is that their bulk grading fee for 70s is around $10 per coin. That's what makes the math work for them, but they are going to make $15 per coin less than last year if people balk at the increased price. Which seems to be the case. Not only because the Mint still has 100K of each for sale, but because these did not sell out at aggressive prices pre-release, like they did last year at several vendors.
It is pretty common worth any Mintv release that doesn't sell out instantly. It was rarely cost effective to submit on your own.
I have bought previous years but from here on out I am only buying the Women's quarters, the Women's proof set and the Women's silver proof set to add to my Granddaughters set of these coins. I have been buying the 3 roll sets and the proof sets since the beginning and those are the only coins I'll buy for the remainder of this series. I have an uncirculated set of ASE but I will buy the next ones from an after market vendor to go into my Dansco albums.
I finally opened my uncs (one of each). They are perfect as far as I can tell. I still plan to cancel the others, but the uncirculated ones really are nice looking.
Have not yet opened the boxes that have arrived and probably should, after reading about the quality.
I just recently found out that the U S Mint charged $85 for the 2021 Morgan/Peace dollars but have seen them listed at $80 on their website and made a post venting about it on an old thread https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13765289#Comment_13765289
Wonder if the prices of these 2024 coins would scale back in due course.
@vulcanize said:
Have not yet opened the boxes that have arrived and probably should, after reading about the quality.
I just recently found out that the U S Mint charged $85 for the 2021 Morgan/Peace dollars but have seen them listed at $80 on their website and made a post venting about it on an old thread https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13765289#Comment_13765289
Wonder if the prices of these 2024 coins would scale back in due course.
I purchased extras in 2021 and sold off the extras. I ended up keeping 7 coins and reduced my cost to about $42 per coin with the profit of the ones I sold.
2023 no extras. Kept all , well returned a Morgan but got a replacement .
If The Mint offered Brillant or Satin or true old school Cameo Proofs instead of current sand blast, resulting in detail reducing design on their proofs I would order the limit. I can hope for much better product, but sand blasted die proofs seem to be the way things are. I keep my subscription current until I see improvements. I also hope for errors but so far I got none. Everything's been a 70
Last night Magic Mike was selling advance release pairs for $ 599.95. These have been out for several weeks now. The only thing advanced about these is a worthless label that will advance the drain on your wallet. Take the labeled coins to a dealer in a few years and you will get: OGP = melt First Strike = melt First Day of Issue = melt Advance Release = melt.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
September 12 is listed as date for launch of 2024 Morgan & Peace Proof.
At the moment they are $95
If you want to cancel your sand blasted die proof subscription, the clock is ticking.
You need 5 business to delete or adjust.
From what I read in this thread; you likely need more than that.
If the Mint wants to be in modern numismatics, which obviously they do because they have a whole section on coin collecting, then they need to think like a numismatist which for some reason they refuse to do.
The announced total mintage on the flowing hair medal will be an interesting number.
Pinehurst dumping Morgan & Peace Silver Dollars for $72.80. May be 70 rejects of maybe buyers remorse.
No real demand at mint issue price for these coins
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
Someone needs to think outside the box and add an antique finish to some of these. It would cover minor flaws and probably look pretty sharp. A few years ago someone was doing that with Silver Eagles and selling them at a premium.
Well, not really THAT generous, since someone else is offering bid! 😀
I agree that these are obnoxiously priced by the Mint. But, given that around 100K of each are sitting unsold at the Mint, I assume dealer bid is something south of the Mint's asking price. 2/3 of that discounted number would actually be the exact opposite of generous, since only a desperate, unknowledgeable seller would bite
@HATTRICK said:
Pinehurst dumping Morgan & Peace Silver Dollars for $72.80. May be 70 rejects of maybe buyers remorse.
No real demand at mint issue price for these coins
No maybes about it. Given their space in the market, they are definitely 70 rejects.
They are dumping them because, given the overhang from the Mint, it is obvious they are going nowhere in the intermediate term, so they want to get what they can out of them.
Maybe they will be worth something in a few years if silver goes to $100 an ounce, or if the Mint ends sales and announces final mintages of around 175K, but neither is likely to happen, so liquidating for $70 each, rather than tying up capital while the coins collect dust sounds like a plan. Assuming there are takers for OGPs that will never grade 70 at that price.
Will the Proofs be a flop as much as the Uncirculated ? If you back up the truck for these you may be headed for a crash.
Buy if you like or collect but not for investment or flip. I will not be buying as my addiction has been cured by outragious prices.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
@fathom said:
If the Mint wants to be in modern numismatics, which obviously they do because they have a whole section on coin collecting, then they need to think like a numismatist which for some reason they refuse to do.
The announced total mintage on the flowing hair medal will be an interesting number.
I get your point about potential Price appreciation that excites collectors and more importantly flippers who buy larger quantities. I believe their priorities are producing quality products with enough to meet demand so everyone who wants one gets one while charging a price that pays for their costs as a reimbursable cost model inside the gov.
What we are seeing is a dip in the larger scale dealer/flippers purchases because with the new system, collectors are not squeezed out from buying directly from the mint. The new orders are aligned with true collector demand since resellers can’t corner the market. If you were only buying one because you thought it would go up in value and you had a fast internet connection, then you weren’t really a collector but a speculator. I for one am fine with the new prices and system and prefer buying directly from the mint and made to collector demand. To your point, the mint is thinking about and like the true collectors. They have just stuck it to the flippers and good for them
@fathom said:
If the Mint wants to be in modern numismatics, which obviously they do because they have a whole section on coin collecting, then they need to think like a numismatist which for some reason they refuse to do.
The announced total mintage on the flowing hair medal will be an interesting number.
I get your point about potential Price appreciation that excites collectors and more importantly flippers who buy larger quantities. I believe their priorities are producing quality products with enough to meet demand so everyone who wants one gets one while charging a price that pays for their costs as a reimbursable cost model inside the gov.
What we are seeing is a dip in the larger scale dealer/flippers purchases because with the new system, collectors are not squeezed out from buying directly from the mint. The new orders are aligned with true collector demand since resellers can’t corner the market. If you were only buying one because you thought it would go up in value and you had a fast internet connection, then you weren’t really a collector but a speculator. I for one am fine with the new prices and system and prefer buying directly from the mint and made to collector demand. To your point, the mint is thinking about and like the true collectors. They have just stuck it to the flippers and good for them
Actually, no. When around 1/3 of an announced mintage is sitting unsold 2 months after release, pricing is the opposite of "aligned with true collector demand."
"Made to collector demand" would require a finite ordering window, as has been done in the past, and was done with the Liberty and Britannia issue this year. That might actually goose demand, even at an inflated price, due to FOMO, as well as the certainty that at least a mintage would be fixed at whatever was ordered at a point in time.
Having 100K Morgan and Peace Dollars overhanging the market is doing as much as the obnoxious premium to stifle demand. In the meantime, the Mint didn't just stick it to flippers. They stuck it to everyone, including themselves, by overproducing and overpricing this.
In fact, flippers made out better than most, since they just avoided it. At the same time, the Mint made millions less than they made last year on the same product, while many "true collectors" were denied something they like to collect due to unreasonable pricing.
Nobody actually won here, including the geniuses at the Mint who thought a 20% price increase would be easily absorbed by the market, with no impact on demand, since mintages were not adjusted down when prices were adjusted up.
Comments
I received my coins several days ago and the quality of both the Morgan and the Peace dollars were atrocious. The Peace dollars have small hits on the her neck, the eagles wings and legs and also the rays. The Morgans also have numerous small marks and scratches. I must have mistakenly ordered the mints "bagmarked" edition coins. Returning all.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Honestly, these are a dumpster fire put out by urine. How on Earth did they sell even 175k examples? I think they - the US Mint are truly amazing, or at least their following. I wonder what it would price wise & mintinwise it would take to kill the golden goose?
All of these testimonials (including mine) about cancelling subscriptions likely don't amount to much of anything to them & even sales drops - perhaps this is part of a bigger plan to scale back operations numismatically. Maybe that is giving them too much credit?
Well, just Love coins, period.
You must not be aware of how the government works. They do not operate as a for profit business. Don't forget the government has bought $760 plastic toilet seats and $460 ($10) hammers.
😂 Oh, I am quite aware of how the government works. But the whole idea the past several years behind jacking up prices, modernizing the website, and modulating mintage to satisfy demand at a given price point was specifically to run the numismatic program more like a for profit business.
And, to a large degree, they succeeded, insofar as we can now buy what we want, directly from the Mint, without fighting off bots or paying scalper prices in the secondary market. Flippers were pissed off, but everyone else was okay, and the Mint began capturing excess profits previously made by the flippers for itself.
All good, up until now, when they over reached. Hopefully they fix it.
They sold 175K because they are still official US Mint products containing popular, iconic designs minted in limited quantities. That said, 175K is HUGE come down from 275K sold last year, so don't think that selling them at $91 when spot silver is trading around $29 did not set them on the path of killing the goose.
Yes, you are giving them too much credit. They don't need your permission, or mine, to scale back numismatic operations, or end them altogether.
While they are running a numismatic operation, however, the goal is certainly to maximize revenue and collector access to product, not to jack up prices to the point where they barely sell half of their maximum mintage and generate less profit than they would have achieved selling more at a lower price point.
To my eyes, this is nothing more than a good old fashioned screw up. As evidenced by the fact that I was not alone in canceling. And this is after I swallowed every prior price increase.
And even cheered them on, arguing that the Mint did not owe me an instant profit on my purchases. My only point always was, and continues to be, that the Mint has to deliver value. That is not defined by selling something for $50 in a quantity that leads the item to immediately sell on eBay for $150. But is also surely not defined by selling something for $91, where half the mintage remains at the Mint waiting to be claimed.
Setting the mintage at 275K, and selling them all in short order at $76, with everyone who wanted them being able to get as many as they wanted, achieved the perfect balance. They sold as many as the market could absorb at a given price, which allowed them to hold their value. They should not have messed with that just because inflation and the spot price of silver caused their production costs to increase.
They made plenty of money last year at $76, and would have made plenty more this year at the same price. Instead, they got greedy and decided to not only capture all of their increased costs, but even build in additional margin.
And the result is that they sold around 100K fewer of each item, with additional reductions to come across the board on all of their other silver products, because the market reaction is certainly not going to be limited to this one item. This is going to cause them to make far less than if they just left the price alone and ate the additional production costs.
But don't think for a minute that any of this was intentional, to scale back anything. It was nothing more than arrogance and stupidity.
I have a few ase for the novelty. I don't consider them investments and far prefer the charm of old morgans.
I was on the fence just for the Peace proof at the old price , with the price increase I canceled my subscription. I’ll buy it at the LCS in a few years for less than the mint prices (if it’s higher no loss as I won’t get it). I think like modern comms the US Mint will kill this series.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
This is why I quit buying these from the mint and cancelled all my subscriptions. I have had similar issues with the dubious mint quality in the past.
I bought one of each graded in MS70 for $275 which is $137.50 each on eBay. Considering the $91 initial price, plus first strike, handling, grading and shipping fees both ways, that is a bargain if you want to collect these in a PCGS set.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Cumulative sales from this weeks posting has been updated this morning.
Looks like they are flying out the door, as compared to last week's numbers. 😂
We can officially put a fork in these, unless the Mint comes to its senses and drops the price back to where it was last year. Which will never, ever happen.
EDIT: I just went back and checked. These are the exact same numbers your posted last week, so something isn't right. Either they have not yet updated, OR last week's numbers updated early. Either way, this is zero change on all 4 numbers, so it's not an update.
I see that. Most weeks the new numbers are up by now. I will check again later and see if it changes. Thanks for the heads up.
Edit: yes they have not been updated as of yet today. The date still says 7-14-2024.
Updated numbers as of 7-21-2024. I don’t know how I missed the date earlier. Sorry about that.
No problem. My point remains from my earlier post.
These are done. +7814 on the Morgans and +7392 on the Peace for the second week of sales. They will NEVER be able to sell another 90K of each of them.
In the meantime, I got this email today:
That's a good price
Which tells you what, two weeks after the on sale date?
People were bragging about locking in $300 before an increase to $330 to reflect the Mint's price increase. At the time, I told people that's great, now let's see if people bite at the increased price. Otherwise, $300 wouldn't be such a deal.
Looks like we have our answer. People are not chasing them regardless of price. $285 is good compared to $182 raw, but not so good compared to last year's good price, which, as I recall, was $250.
Despite people complaining about quality on this forum, these coins tend to grade very well, and the Big Boys know that from their Advance Release submissions. That's why they didn't get hurt last year, and why they won't get hurt now.
But, they are sure going to have to be happy with less if they don't get cleaned out at $285. Which they apparently are not.
My understanding is that their bulk grading fee for 70s is around $10 per coin. That's what makes the math work for them, but they are going to make $15 per coin less than last year if people balk at the increased price. Which seems to be the case. Not only because the Mint still has 100K of each for sale, but because these did not sell out at aggressive prices pre-release, like they did last year at several vendors.
I just asked my LCS and they already got 2 (2024's) in, they offered under the selling price. I don't believe the 2024 will appreciate in value. The 2023 they are offering $50 for each.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
When you factor in base coin costs and slabbing fees, it’s not really a bad deal to guarantee 70’s. If that’s what you’re looking for. Not for me though. Makes me wonder if they just wanna blow them out and be done with them. No near or long term upside.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Yes. That's the whole point. My point is that $285, with raw coins being offered by the Mint for $91, is the equivalent of $250 with raw coins offered at $76.
Except, they flew off the shelves last year at $250. Not so much this year at $285. It shows resistance to the higher prices. They were always priced to sell. At the higher prices, though, they don't seem to be selling. At least not two weeks after release, at the same dealer margin as last year.
Stay tuned. These have nowhere to go but down. The Mint is offering too many, at too high a price. The market has to find its equilibrium.
$285 for a set of 2 MS70s is great at $91 raw. But where is it written that $91 is FMV? Just because the Mint says so? If that was the case, they'd be sold out, like they were this time last year at $76.
Oh yeah, we’re on the same page for sure. Couldn’t agree more. Last thing I’d add is that from my vantage point the economy is really tightening up. Especially amongst the “middle class.” Disposable income has been getting less and less the last few years and I’m pretty sure these would be items people put to the top of the chopping block - especially at these prices.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
After what has happened with the '23s they are not learning. Maybe they need a machine learning program in the marketing department. Now they are loosing big orders from big bullion and coin dealers on the new issues because of previous overproduction. They are jeopardizing the viability of ongoing collector interest as well. well we warned them, lead the horse to water......
Canceled my proof subscription today. Had 3 of each on order. I am keeping my reverse proof order just because I like the look. I see these uncs and proofs going nowhere in the future if the mint stays on this course. I will buy one of each proof 70 slabbed when those come out.
It is pretty common worth any Mintv release that doesn't sell out instantly. It was rarely cost effective to submit on your own.
I have bought previous years but from here on out I am only buying the Women's quarters, the Women's proof set and the Women's silver proof set to add to my Granddaughters set of these coins. I have been buying the 3 roll sets and the proof sets since the beginning and those are the only coins I'll buy for the remainder of this series. I have an uncirculated set of ASE but I will buy the next ones from an after market vendor to go into my Dansco albums.
I finally opened my uncs (one of each). They are perfect as far as I can tell. I still plan to cancel the others, but the uncirculated ones really are nice looking.
Have not yet opened the boxes that have arrived and probably should, after reading about the quality.
I just recently found out that the U S Mint charged $85 for the 2021 Morgan/Peace dollars but have seen them listed at $80 on their website and made a post venting about it on an old thread https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13765289#Comment_13765289
Wonder if the prices of these 2024 coins would scale back in due course.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
No thanks!
Not worth the premium, in my opinion.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I think the 2023 is enough for me.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
I purchased extras in 2021 and sold off the extras. I ended up keeping 7 coins and reduced my cost to about $42 per coin with the profit of the ones I sold.
2023 no extras. Kept all , well returned a Morgan but got a replacement .
2024 no Morgan or Peace. Passing for now.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
If The Mint offered Brillant or Satin or true old school Cameo Proofs instead of current sand blast, resulting in detail reducing design on their proofs I would order the limit. I can hope for much better product, but sand blasted die proofs seem to be the way things are. I keep my subscription current until I see improvements. I also hope for errors but so far I got none. Everything's been a 70
Last night Magic Mike was selling advance release pairs for $ 599.95. These have been out for several weeks now. The only thing advanced about these is a worthless label that will advance the drain on your wallet. Take the labeled coins to a dealer in a few years and you will get: OGP = melt First Strike = melt First Day of Issue = melt Advance Release = melt.
Not my cup of tea.
I would be generous offering 2/3 of bid for one.
September 12 is listed as date for launch of 2024 Morgan & Peace Proof.
At the moment they are $95
If you want to cancel your sand blasted die proof subscription, the clock is ticking.
You need 5 business to delete or adjust.
From what I read in this thread; you likely need more than that.
I always have to remind myself this isn't a coin collectors/numismatic forum but rather a third party grader participant forum.
8-4-24 numbers are in. Returns are happening and the sales numbers are dwindling.
Numbers are still falling 8/11/2024
i would rather invest in pre 33 gold, buying stuff from the mint is like throwing money out the window
My proofs have been cancelled.
If the Mint wants to be in modern numismatics, which obviously they do because they have a whole section on coin collecting, then they need to think like a numismatist which for some reason they refuse to do.
The announced total mintage on the flowing hair medal will be an interesting number.
Canceled my 3 reverse proofs and my Morgan and Peace proofs. Done with these. The mint ruined all the fun in this series. In my opinion anyway.
Pinehurst dumping Morgan & Peace Silver Dollars for $72.80. May be 70 rejects of maybe buyers remorse.
No real demand at mint issue price for these coins
Someone needs to think outside the box and add an antique finish to some of these. It would cover minor flaws and probably look pretty sharp. A few years ago someone was doing that with Silver Eagles and selling them at a premium.
May have waited too long to cancel my laser etched dies proof subscriptions ?
Adjusted total due down to 1 each if my de-activation fails
Today is the 4th & business days ahead are 5th, 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th so this should be last day to modify or deactivate subscriptions.
If you wait a few months you probably will be able to buy a PCGS graded 70 for less than the Mint issue price!
Thx for the reminder. I just went in and deactivated my proof subs. I guess I can always order on issue date if I change my mind.
I got two really nice proof $ last year so I think I'll end it there.
Well, not really THAT generous, since someone else is offering bid! 😀
I agree that these are obnoxiously priced by the Mint. But, given that around 100K of each are sitting unsold at the Mint, I assume dealer bid is something south of the Mint's asking price. 2/3 of that discounted number would actually be the exact opposite of generous, since only a desperate, unknowledgeable seller would bite
No maybes about it. Given their space in the market, they are definitely 70 rejects.
They are dumping them because, given the overhang from the Mint, it is obvious they are going nowhere in the intermediate term, so they want to get what they can out of them.
Maybe they will be worth something in a few years if silver goes to $100 an ounce, or if the Mint ends sales and announces final mintages of around 175K, but neither is likely to happen, so liquidating for $70 each, rather than tying up capital while the coins collect dust sounds like a plan. Assuming there are takers for OGPs that will never grade 70 at that price.
Canceled my subs Thanks for the reminder
Martin
Will the Proofs be a flop as much as the Uncirculated ? If you back up the truck for these you may be headed for a crash.
Buy if you like or collect but not for investment or flip. I will not be buying as my addiction has been cured by outragious prices.
I get your point about potential Price appreciation that excites collectors and more importantly flippers who buy larger quantities. I believe their priorities are producing quality products with enough to meet demand so everyone who wants one gets one while charging a price that pays for their costs as a reimbursable cost model inside the gov.
What we are seeing is a dip in the larger scale dealer/flippers purchases because with the new system, collectors are not squeezed out from buying directly from the mint. The new orders are aligned with true collector demand since resellers can’t corner the market. If you were only buying one because you thought it would go up in value and you had a fast internet connection, then you weren’t really a collector but a speculator. I for one am fine with the new prices and system and prefer buying directly from the mint and made to collector demand. To your point, the mint is thinking about and like the true collectors. They have just stuck it to the flippers and good for them
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Actually, no. When around 1/3 of an announced mintage is sitting unsold 2 months after release, pricing is the opposite of "aligned with true collector demand."
"Made to collector demand" would require a finite ordering window, as has been done in the past, and was done with the Liberty and Britannia issue this year. That might actually goose demand, even at an inflated price, due to FOMO, as well as the certainty that at least a mintage would be fixed at whatever was ordered at a point in time.
Having 100K Morgan and Peace Dollars overhanging the market is doing as much as the obnoxious premium to stifle demand. In the meantime, the Mint didn't just stick it to flippers. They stuck it to everyone, including themselves, by overproducing and overpricing this.
In fact, flippers made out better than most, since they just avoided it. At the same time, the Mint made millions less than they made last year on the same product, while many "true collectors" were denied something they like to collect due to unreasonable pricing.
Nobody actually won here, including the geniuses at the Mint who thought a 20% price increase would be easily absorbed by the market, with no impact on demand, since mintages were not adjusted down when prices were adjusted up.