Getting an early start to stop the cancellations. Two more over produced coins at too high a price. Buy only to collect and admire until your heirs sell for melt.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
@NJCoin said:
They are not going to risk a fiasco like 2021, where they under produce, have a bunch of pissed off customers, and create a windfall for a fortunate few in the secondary market. The new model includes taking care of the Big Boys, letting them make their money through bulk rate TPG submissions, and also satisfying retail demand through subscriptions. To the extent that demand exists.
I disagree.
I think the US Mint should have set mintages and when the mintage calendar year finishes, melt down what's left over. This catering to "the big boys" is just baloney and smacks of profiteering.
With Silver hovering around $29 I see absolutely no reason to charge $95 for these which in turn, makes them losers in the long run.
When the interest wanes in this series, there simply will not be any collector value unless the US Mint digs in their heels and melts the leftovers that don't sell. Then, when the dust settles, folks can know how many might really be out there.
I returned both of my subscription coins when they arrived because I just do not see an upside.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
@NJCoin said:
They are not going to risk a fiasco like 2021, where they under produce, have a bunch of pissed off customers, and create a windfall for a fortunate few in the secondary market. The new model includes taking care of the Big Boys, letting them make their money through bulk rate TPG submissions, and also satisfying retail demand through subscriptions. To the extent that demand exists.
I disagree.
I think the US Mint should have set mintages and when the mintage calendar year finishes, melt down what's left over. This catering to "the big boys" is just baloney and smacks of profiteering.
With Silver hovering around $29 I see absolutely no reason to charge $95 for these which in turn, makes them losers in the long run.
When the interest wanes in this series, there simply will not be any collector value unless the US Mint digs in their heels and melts the leftovers that don't sell. Then, when the dust settles, folks can know how many might really be out there.
I returned both of my subscription coins when they arrived because I just do not see an upside.
I agree with you. You are quoting from an old post, based on what they did last year, when they got it just right. Raising the price by $15 this year, in response to a $5 increase in the price of silver, was greedy, unwarranted, and not accepted by the market.
Catering to the Big Boys is a necessity, just like in any other manufacturing environment. Proctor and Gamble similarly cater to Walmart and Costco, and don't sell toilet paper and soap directly to consumers.
The Mint markets most products, other than bullion, as a service. The bulk of their sales are to the Big Boys, because they move quantity very efficiently. Everything would necessarily cost far more is all sales were limited to the relatively tiny quantities we each buy individually.
No need to do what you say with mintages, which is just wasteful. They can either price high, and lower mintages accordingly, or find a price/mintage combination that maximizes their profit while creating value for collectors, and profits for their Big Boy retail partners, as they did last year.
They can also just mint to demand during a specified ordering window, but people don't seem to like it when there is not a fixed mintage, and demand suffers as a result. All this said, you are 1,000% correct, and $95 is unjustifiable for a coin with less than $30 worth of silver in it with a mintage of 300K. And around 100K will go unsold as a result.
They should have left the price alone, and absorbed the increase in their variable cost, since their margins would still be sky high at last year's price of $80. As a result, they will be the ones paying the price for their avarice.
Current 2024 Morgan & Peace products delivered mintages. They've been flat for a month now. Next week's report may include the 2024 Proofs issuing at Noon today
Image shows where the deliveries were before the price increase:
Also 230th anniversary 2024 Silver Dollar images with price are live.
The raised 230 obverse banner is disappointing.
Yes I will buy a flowing hair...geez.... what a sucker.
As regard to the Morgan/Peace glut:
A private company will assess current inventory and then make production and marketing decisions based on that info.
Congress and the Mint will assess inventory and then go home and watch Netflix or whatever and completely disregard inventory or demand or perceived value or collectibilty.
@Mr Lindy said:
Current 2024 Morgan & Peace products delivered mintages. They've been flat for a month now. Next week's report may include the 2024 Proofs issuing at Noon today
Also 230th anniversary 2024 Silver Dollar images with price are live.
The raised 230 obverse banner is disappointing.
I bet they're putting it on the gold flowing hair as well.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
I would actually want a couple again, for myself, but the way the mint has handled things, and the way they have priced things, they lost me as a customer for awhile.
I will confess to having some difficulty understanding all the negative energy being put into these (and various other) US Mint offerings.
They're not expensive, in the context of how much money so many people here put into their collecting.
Nobody pretends that they're for everyone.
Obviously, lots of people like them.
Could the Mint do a better, more consistent job of balancing price and supply? Possibly. Does it really matter? Other than to those hoping to flip them for a profit, none at all. And it's not the Mint's job to make money for flippers/dealers.
@124Spider said:
I will confess to having some difficulty understanding all the negative energy being put into these (and various other) US Mint offerings.
They're not expensive, in the context of how much money so many people here put into their collecting.
Nobody pretends that they're for everyone.
Obviously, lots of people like them.
Could the Mint do a better, more consistent job of balancing price and supply? Possibly. Does it really matter? Other than to those hoping to flip them for a profit, none at all. And it's not the Mint's job to make money for flippers/dealers.
Don't like them? Don't buy them! What a concept!
Because people are pissed that the Mint felt the need to jack up the price by 20% on an item that was already priced at 300% of intrinsic value, with a mintage of nearly 300K. That's why "all the negative energy."
"Expensive" is relative, but no one likes feeling that they are being taken advantage of. People like them, and yet they are compelled to not buy them. Hence the disappointment and "negative energy."
I don't sell anything, so flipping isn't an issue for me. I love the coins, and yet refuse to buy them, given the price and the mintage. Clearly, I am not alone.
Putting flippers aside for a minute, it actually IS the Mint's job to make sure dealers can make money. Which is why they get volume discounts and special deals, like the Advance Release program. The Mint is a manufacturer and wholesaler. Dealers are their retail partners.
Difficult to sustain a market if your retailers don't make money. The Mint makes good money from its numismatic program. A lot more moving volume through the Big Boys than selling coins 1 or 5 at a time to us.
Overproducing and overpricing product benefits no one. Least of all the Mint, which left a lot of money on the table as compared to what they sold last year, even at the lower price.
@124Spider said:
I will confess to having some difficulty understanding all the negative energy being put into these (and various other) US Mint offerings.
They're not expensive, in the context of how much money so many people here put into their collecting.
Nobody pretends that they're for everyone.
Obviously, lots of people like them.
Could the Mint do a better, more consistent job of balancing price and supply? Possibly. Does it really matter? Other than to those hoping to flip them for a profit, none at all. And it's not the Mint's job to make money for flippers/dealers.
Don't like them? Don't buy them! What a concept!
Because people are pissed that the Mint felt the need to jack up the price by 20% on an item that was already priced at 300% of intrinsic value, with a mintage of nearly 300K. That's why "all the negative energy."
"Expensive" is relative, but no one likes feeling that they are being taken advantage of. People like them, and yet they are compelled to not buy them. Hence the disappointment and "negative energy."
I don't sell anything, so flipping isn't an issue for me. I love the coins, and yet refuse to buy them, given the price and the mintage. Clearly, I am not alone.
Putting flippers aside for a minute, it actually IS the Mint's job to make sure dealers can make money. Which is why they get volume discounts and special deals, like the Advance Release program. The Mint is a manufacturer and wholesaler. Dealers are their retail partners.
Difficult to sustain a market if your retailers don't make money. The Mint makes good money from its numismatic program. A lot more moving volume through the Big Boys than selling coins 1 or 5 at a time to us.
Overproducing and overpricing product benefits no one. Least of all the Mint, which left a lot of money on the table as compared to what they sold last year, even at the lower price.
I understand the gripe. I don't unerstand all the energy being put into the gripe.
Again, don't wanna buy the product (including feeling that it's too expensive)? Don't buy it. Yes, it really is that simple.
No amount of pissing and moaning on an internet message board will alter what the Mint does. So why bother whining about what is felt to be bad decisions by the Mint?
As a parting observation--The part of the Mint that sells collector coins/bullion is supposed to be run at a profit (not be subsidized by the taxpayers). I suspect that they know a lot more about how to do that than we do. Do they ever make mistakes? Sure they do (e.g., the first year of the modern Morgan and peace dollars). Is everything someone whines about actually a mistake? Of course not.
@124Spider said:
I will confess to having some difficulty understanding all the negative energy being put into these (and various other) US Mint offerings.
They're not expensive, in the context of how much money so many people here put into their collecting.
Nobody pretends that they're for everyone.
Obviously, lots of people like them.
Could the Mint do a better, more consistent job of balancing price and supply? Possibly. Does it really matter? Other than to those hoping to flip them for a profit, none at all. And it's not the Mint's job to make money for flippers/dealers.
Don't like them? Don't buy them! What a concept!
Because people are pissed that the Mint felt the need to jack up the price by 20% on an item that was already priced at 300% of intrinsic value, with a mintage of nearly 300K. That's why "all the negative energy."
"Expensive" is relative, but no one likes feeling that they are being taken advantage of. People like them, and yet they are compelled to not buy them. Hence the disappointment and "negative energy."
I don't sell anything, so flipping isn't an issue for me. I love the coins, and yet refuse to buy them, given the price and the mintage. Clearly, I am not alone.
Putting flippers aside for a minute, it actually IS the Mint's job to make sure dealers can make money. Which is why they get volume discounts and special deals, like the Advance Release program. The Mint is a manufacturer and wholesaler. Dealers are their retail partners.
Difficult to sustain a market if your retailers don't make money. The Mint makes good money from its numismatic program. A lot more moving volume through the Big Boys than selling coins 1 or 5 at a time to us.
Overproducing and overpricing product benefits no one. Least of all the Mint, which left a lot of money on the table as compared to what they sold last year, even at the lower price.
I understand the gripe. I don't unerstand all the energy being put into the gripe.
Again, don't wanna buy the product (including feeling that it's too expensive)? Don't buy it. Yes, it really is that simple.
No amount of pissing and moaning on an internet message board will alter what the Mint does. So why bother whining about what is felt to be bad decisions by the Mint?
As a parting observation--The part of the Mint that sells collector coins/bullion is supposed to be run at a profit (not be subsidized by the taxpayers). I suspect that they know a lot more about how to do that than we do. Do they ever make mistakes? Sure they do (e.g., the first year of the modern Morgan and peace dollars). Is everything someone whines about actually a mistake? Of course not.
True. But you never know who's reading, or who might have influence with the powers that be at the Mint. Plus, there is a value to simple venting, or seeking validation from others. The same could be said about many threads on many topics in internet forums.
And, believe me, pricing and mintage on 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars was a HUGE mistake, as demonstrated by the decline in sales in one short year. Cost them several million dollars in lost revenue and profit, even at the higher price, given how substantial the margins are on that particular product. Pissing off their customers at the same time they reduced the profit they are supposed to be chasing.
I’m just tired of buying US Mint products and seeing them sold at reduced prices 5, 10, 15, 20 or more years later. Who wants to buy these products and pay a big premium when they can get them much cheaper in the future? There MAY be a sleeper, but for the most part it seems the same story year after year.
@124Spider said:
I will confess to having some difficulty understanding all the negative energy being put into these (and various other) US Mint offerings.
They're not expensive, in the context of how much money so many people here put into their collecting.
Nobody pretends that they're for everyone.
Obviously, lots of people like them.
Could the Mint do a better, more consistent job of balancing price and supply? Possibly. Does it really matter? Other than to those hoping to flip them for a profit, none at all. And it's not the Mint's job to make money for flippers/dealers.
Don't like them? Don't buy them! What a concept!
Because people are pissed that the Mint felt the need to jack up the price by 20% on an item that was already priced at 300% of intrinsic value, with a mintage of nearly 300K. That's why "all the negative energy."
"Expensive" is relative, but no one likes feeling that they are being taken advantage of. People like them, and yet they are compelled to not buy them. Hence the disappointment and "negative energy."
I don't sell anything, so flipping isn't an issue for me. I love the coins, and yet refuse to buy them, given the price and the mintage. Clearly, I am not alone.
Putting flippers aside for a minute, it actually IS the Mint's job to make sure dealers can make money. Which is why they get volume discounts and special deals, like the Advance Release program. The Mint is a manufacturer and wholesaler. Dealers are their retail partners.
Difficult to sustain a market if your retailers don't make money. The Mint makes good money from its numismatic program. A lot more moving volume through the Big Boys than selling coins 1 or 5 at a time to us.
Overproducing and overpricing product benefits no one. Least of all the Mint, which left a lot of money on the table as compared to what they sold last year, even at the lower price.
It isn’t the mint job to make dealers money. They are not partners and the mint is retail not them. Any bulk discounts or programs are hobby curtesies to middle men who may have customers who want to touch and buy or guilt buy a widget after hanging out for too long in their local B&M all the way up to managed promotions. The mint is under no obligation to leave meat on the bone nor would any gripe on a forum register at any level with any official. This point you keep making about leaving money on the table shows how little you comprehend about their motives or fiscal mechanism.
I want to see you make, package and ship such a product for under 100$ where 1/3 of the cost is materials. Your outrage and assertions are uninformed opinions, not facts. Where is you outrage over proof sets? It’s weird man, chill out.
@124Spider said:
I will confess to having some difficulty understanding all the negative energy being put into these (and various other) US Mint offerings.
They're not expensive, in the context of how much money so many people here put into their collecting.
Nobody pretends that they're for everyone.
Obviously, lots of people like them.
Could the Mint do a better, more consistent job of balancing price and supply? Possibly. Does it really matter? Other than to those hoping to flip them for a profit, none at all. And it's not the Mint's job to make money for flippers/dealers.
Don't like them? Don't buy them! What a concept!
Because people are pissed that the Mint felt the need to jack up the price by 20% on an item that was already priced at 300% of intrinsic value, with a mintage of nearly 300K. That's why "all the negative energy."
"Expensive" is relative, but no one likes feeling that they are being taken advantage of. People like them, and yet they are compelled to not buy them. Hence the disappointment and "negative energy."
I don't sell anything, so flipping isn't an issue for me. I love the coins, and yet refuse to buy them, given the price and the mintage. Clearly, I am not alone.
Putting flippers aside for a minute, it actually IS the Mint's job to make sure dealers can make money. Which is why they get volume discounts and special deals, like the Advance Release program. The Mint is a manufacturer and wholesaler. Dealers are their retail partners.
Difficult to sustain a market if your retailers don't make money. The Mint makes good money from its numismatic program. A lot more moving volume through the Big Boys than selling coins 1 or 5 at a time to us.
Overproducing and overpricing product benefits no one. Least of all the Mint, which left a lot of money on the table as compared to what they sold last year, even at the lower price.
It isn’t the mint job to make dealers money. They are not partners and the mint is retail not them. Any bulk discounts or programs are hobby curtesies to middle men who may have customers who want to touch and buy or guilt buy a widget after hanging out for too long in their local B&M all the way up to managed promotions. The mint is under no obligation to leave meat on the bone nor would any gripe on a forum register at any level with any official. This point you keep making about leaving money on the table shows how little you comprehend about their motives or fiscal mechanism.
I want to see you make, package and ship such a product for under 100$ where 1/3 of the cost is materials. Your outrage and assertions are uninformed opinions, not facts. Where is you outrage over proof sets? It’s weird man, chill out.
Respectfully disagree. The Mint moves a lot more product through dealers than through its phone and website. While the Mint is under no obligation to leave meat on the bone, dealers are under no obligation to be a ready and substantial market for its wares.
I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make with proof sets, because all you are doing is making my point. If the Mint can make money pushing out a proof set containing 10, count 'em, 10 base metal coins for $35, it's reasonable to believe they can make money selling a single proof coin with less than $30 worth of silver for $65.
Beyond that, they should absolutely seek what the market will bear, and not be total P-I-G-S. $80 was plenty. $95 is obscene. Which is why around 100,000 of them will remain unsold.
My opinion is far from uninformed. Simple arithmetic will reveal they make more selling any widget for $15 less if they can increase sales by 100K, assuming they are covering their variable costs. Without regard to fixed costs, which, of course, are more easily covered as volume increases.
Their motive is clearly to make as much as possible, without regard to what they are doing to demand as they stretch beyond what the market will bear. And their fiscal mechanism is deeply flawed, as evidenced by the fact that they either chronically under produce, leaving excess profits for flippers, or over price and over produce, killing demand, as well as their own profit.
They very rarely get it right. There is absolutely no reason a 2024 proof AGE should sell for a $900 premium over intrinsic value, other than greed. They'd make a lot more money, and have many more coins over which to allocate their fixed costs, if they got a clue and priced them in line with the market for one ounce gold collector coins.
Same with these, although it's obviously a lower price point, so some people who want the coins will hold their noses and pay the price, resulting in higher sales than $3500 gold coins.
@124Spider said:
I will confess to having some difficulty understanding all the negative energy being put into these (and various other) US Mint offerings.
They're not expensive, in the context of how much money so many people here put into their collecting.
Nobody pretends that they're for everyone.
Obviously, lots of people like them.
Could the Mint do a better, more consistent job of balancing price and supply? Possibly. Does it really matter? Other than to those hoping to flip them for a profit, none at all. And it's not the Mint's job to make money for flippers/dealers.
Don't like them? Don't buy them! What a concept!
Define "expensive".
It's different for everyone and it's different in the overall view vs the item view as well.
While ~$100 may not be that expensive to some, it could be a month's, or more, budget to someone else. Then, they get something they may like for a bit but that will never appreciate in their lifetime (hyperbole maybe, but just saying).
Look at some of the 70s, 80s and even later, mint sets. Are/were they expensive? Not in the overall picture of pricing, but, look at their values today, and I think most can agree that buying them during/after that time, they were a bit on the expensive side...compared to what may have been purchased instead. Words can be played with around them, but their value isn't there, without errors/great toning, so they have been an expensive money pit for some. Me for instance
The thing, to me and maybe others, about these latest offerings, is what I see as a higher than it could be, margin for the mint. Yes, they have overhead etc etc etc. But, that is a HUGE premium for the silver value and the way they are handling things could also be better. I would like to see a "mint to demand", as I believe some others have mentioned as well, for stuff like this. Take the orders, lock the orders on a certain date, and then mint them and ship them, within a month or so, and let the collectors/market decide at that point. Charge for a return for anything except a damaged coin sent out. Maybe have 5-10% extra minted for that case. Maybe less.
Does it matter if they could do better? Yes. It does. Excusing continued incompetence for a government entity is enablement and shouldn't be promoted.
I have no problem with the Mint charging what they feel is a reasonable markup. I do have a problem with them not paying attention to demand, production and perceived value, that is basically it in a nutshell. The fact that numusmatists here on the board care about the morgan/peace reissue/reproduction is a positive not a negative.
They are over their skis on inventory now and it hurts to see this develop. It hurts values down the road and it will hurt demand/interest.
These are not proof sets. These are a legitimate effort to create ongoing interest in a historically significant popular series for further potential crossover to classic numismatics.
Right now, I (and 30 others) have the #1 registry set of the Modern Morgan/Peace dollars at NGC.
I bought a giant acrylic frame to showcase the set, it holds 18 coins. With the four remaining 2024 issues, the frame is full.
And I'm done. Between the difficulty of displaying it, the increased costs, grading fees, and some quality lapses (one of my factory-fresh RPs was graded RP-68 [yep, as of right now, with 377 graded, I own the low-ball]), the fun is just not there for 2025 and beyond.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I've decided not to buy any more also. I forgot to cancel my subscription however my credit card expired and consequently, the mint was unable to process the order. Lucky me. I wonder if I correct my credit card in the future, the Mint will fill prior subscriptions that were not filled earlier due to the credit card not being valid. Any insight on this?
@Glen2022 said:
I've decided not to buy any more also. I forgot to cancel my subscription however my credit card expired and consequently, the mint was unable to process the order. Lucky me. I wonder if I correct my credit card in the future, the Mint will fill prior subscriptions that were not filled earlier due to the credit card not being valid. Any insight on this?
It depends on one of two things. 1. If you want it you won't get it. 2. If you don't want it you will get it.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
@HATTRICK said:
Pinehurst dumping Morgan & Peace Silver Dollars for $72.80. May be 70 rejects of maybe buyers remorse.
No real demand at mint issue price for these coins
Took them up on their offer and ordered a few. The ones I received looked just fine, saw no issues. There was some smutz on one of the capsules.
"Save up to 30% on Select Coins and Sets
Limited time offer: 9/19/24 - 9/25/24
Thank you for your patronage! As a small token of our appreciation, the U.S. Mint is excited to offer you over 30 different products in silver, gold, and clad at discounts up to 30%.
We will email you a link to the special customer appreciation sales event the morning of 9/19/2024. Limited quantities available! First-come first-served basis, promotion expires 12 pm ET on 9/25/2024. Stay tuned!"
Just received this e-mail. Never saw anything like this before. EVER.
Not specifically the 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars, but still. Maybe they really DON'T actually know what they are doing. And maybe their margins are absolutely sick if they can afford to sell "at discounts up to 30%." Maybe anyone paying full price for anything from them really is a total sucker.
They're not expensive, in the context of how much money so many people here put into their collecting.
Not expensive to collectors on this forum or those who primarily buy (value wise) coins in TPG plastic.
Not cheap for the "typical" collector who isn't representative of most of those (or at least a substantial minority) who post on this forum.
Mintages on these are not low, whether it's 175K or 275K. That's in the range of numerous "real" Morgan and Peace dollars which can be bought in the same price range and are considered alternatives since few collectors ignore what else is available.
It's my inference that most are bought as part of a "side collection" (not primary interest) or by those who prioritize liquidity where posts in these threads indicate the buyers don't actually like it that much. It will always be available (in volume) any day of the week and IMO, at much lower premiums (though maybe not prices depending upon future spot) years from now.
@Cougar1978 said:
Can you outline their investment potential? If they trading less than ASE. Beyond that no use 4 them.
There isn't any, other than from future temporary speculation. Way to common for the price considering the scarcity difference isn't meaningful vs. the most common circulating Morgan and Peace dollars, even though the quality is higher. The latter are nowhere close to cheap either given what both actually are as collectibles, widgets. No longer a one-year issue either, which I considered the only (or at least most likely) reason for it back in 2021.
I don't expect this series to get lost in future obscurity like practically every US modern commemorative or some of the NCLT, but that's not saying much.
I just got the same email. I strongly doubt the real reason for sale is "Customer Appreciation" How can you refute that claim?
Can you say "Fire Sale"
Marketing is great. For all you older folks I remember my marketing professor telling us how they legally got away with their promotion for Crisco shortening that made it a major household staple.
"Things fried right in Crisco are better than baked" Then showed only less that a teaspoon of shortening went into the chicken.
What they did not say was that "Right" meant you had to use, what cost $10,000 then, a commercial pressure cooker.
The devil is always in the details.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
@HATTRICK said:
I just got the same email. I strongly doubt the real reason for sale is "Customer Appreciation" How can you refute that claim?
Can you say "Fire Sale"
Marketing is great. For all you older folks I remember my marketing professor telling us how they legally got away with their promotion for Crisco shortening that made it a major household staple.
"Things fried right in Crisco are better than baked" Then showed only less that a teaspoon of shortening went into the chicken.
What they did not say was that "Right" meant you had to use, what cost $10,000 then, a commercial pressure cooker.
The devil is always in the details.
Actually, it's effing hilarious. One rich example is "20% Off select Gold Coins including a Coin of the Year Award winning design with our 2018 American Liberty One-Tenth Ounce Gold Proof Coin."
Basically a fugly coin they could not sell for $215 in 2018 is now going to be offered, as a gesture of "Customer Appreciation" in 2024 at 20% off the current price of $410. Thanks for nothing. 🤣🤣🤣
They REALLY don't understand their market. They made over 100K of them, they contain around $260 worth of gold, and they don't understand why they sit unsold at a $150 premium, when they are barely worth melt in the secondary market.
Dropping the premium to $70 isn't going to make a bit of difference to anyone. In fact, with a mintage of 135K and gold at $2600, they'd probably have trouble liquidating whatever they have left at melt. Which is why they probably should just call it a day, give the folks who are actually holding them a break, and actually melt whatever they have left.
But they apparently don't want to take the hit on the production cost, whatever convoluted formula they use to allocate overhead, packaging, etc. So instead we get this. Geniuses. Yeah, they know what they're doing!
It's cheaper to sell them at a discount (loss) than having to pay a vendor to detrash them (mint speak for removing the precious metal and separating the various types of trash), and losing the seignorage.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@MsMorrisine said:
dreamers think there will be recent issues
this will be super stale inventory they don't want to recycle
What is the plan if the recent issues are super stale?
Wash, rinse and repeat. Come back in 2030 for the Vault Sale of 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars. Likely 25% off of what will be a 100% markup from today's prices. Just like a loaf of bread, the magic ingredient to make Mint products super stale is time.
Just received my one ordered Peace dollar today and am enjoying the cameo surfaces. Isn't it great to take satisfaction and enjoyment from a purchase?
So glad that I don't spend my time constantly naysaying various numismatic issues in our hobby versus posting something that is positive entertainment. Can't imagine the stress of the constant dissatisfaction, possessing a delusional savior complex, and generating mental bile issued by certain posters on our board.
@vulcanize said:
There was an e-mail sent out by the Mint yesterday announcing discounts of upto 30%
Wonder how many of these will find their way in to that bunch.
You can stop wondering. The answer is going to be "none."
The Mint is going to be liquidating stale stock that has been sitting in a warehouse for years. They are absolutely not going to burn loyal customers who paid full price for anything released in 2024.
Given periodic price increases, you can also take it to the bank that the prices, after the discounts, are still going to be higher than the original prices, at which whatever they offer failed to sell-out. Basically not really a deal at all, since it's unlikely that anything they offer in this sale is not already available elsewhere for less.
@vulcanize said:
There was an e-mail sent out by the Mint yesterday announcing discounts of upto 30%
Wonder how many of these will find their way in to that bunch.
You can stop wondering. The answer is going to be "none."
The Mint is going to be liquidating stale stock that has been sitting in a warehouse for years. They are absolutely not going to burn loyal customers who paid full price for anything released in 2024.
Given periodic price increases, you can also take it to the bank that the prices, after the discounts, are still going to be higher than the original prices, at which whatever they offer failed to sell-out. Basically not really a deal at all, since it's unlikely that anything they offer in this sale is not already available elsewhere for less.
Basically agree.
Easy on the mental bile. We must remain positive and entertaining......
My cousin gifted me a ‘21, I bought a ‘23—compulsion did not like the gap, so I bought D. Carr’s ‘22 version.
I’m building a strait flush, so I got the ‘24. All are slabbed 70.
So, having fessed to the question posed (who and why buy this product), without any other defense for my unreasoning in the face of the good reasoning you guys present: what are the chances that 2024 is the last year of the Peace dollar and that my straight goes bust?
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. I had cut the rest of my subscriptions a while back.
@Creg said:
My cousin gifted me a ‘21, I bought a ‘23—compulsion did not like the gap, so I bought D. Carr’s ‘22 version.
I’m building a strait flush, so I got the ‘24. All are slabbed 70.
So, having fessed to the question posed (who and why buy this product), without any other defense for my unreasoning in the face of the good reasoning you guys present: what are the chances that 2024 is the last year of the Peace dollar and that my straight goes bust?
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. I had cut the rest of my subscriptions a while back.
None. 200K people like you are willing to pay nearly $100 for an ounce of silver. Six times per year. They exist to exploit that demand, and will continue raising prices and lowering mintages until you and the others are cured of your compulsion. Enjoy!
I haven't put them side by side yet with the 2023 proof issue to compare, however the 2024 proof Morgan appears at first glance to have a smoother more uniform apperance to the frosted devices as opposed to last years heavy, gritty sandblast 'frost' which just didn't look right nor attractive to me.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Comments
I actually did better on the 2024 MS coins than the 2023 RP (both Morgan and Peace came out 5x70, 1x69).
My Reverse Proof Morgans: 1 RP68, 2 RP69, 2 RP70
But 5-for-5 RP70 for the RP Peaces
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Retail processing started on 9/6/2024.
Getting an early start to stop the cancellations.
Two more over produced coins at too high a price. Buy only to collect and admire until your heirs sell for melt.
I disagree.
I think the US Mint should have set mintages and when the mintage calendar year finishes, melt down what's left over. This catering to "the big boys" is just baloney and smacks of profiteering.
With Silver hovering around $29 I see absolutely no reason to charge $95 for these which in turn, makes them losers in the long run.
When the interest wanes in this series, there simply will not be any collector value unless the US Mint digs in their heels and melts the leftovers that don't sell. Then, when the dust settles, folks can know how many might really be out there.
I returned both of my subscription coins when they arrived because I just do not see an upside.
The name is LEE!
I agree with you. You are quoting from an old post, based on what they did last year, when they got it just right. Raising the price by $15 this year, in response to a $5 increase in the price of silver, was greedy, unwarranted, and not accepted by the market.
Catering to the Big Boys is a necessity, just like in any other manufacturing environment. Proctor and Gamble similarly cater to Walmart and Costco, and don't sell toilet paper and soap directly to consumers.
The Mint markets most products, other than bullion, as a service. The bulk of their sales are to the Big Boys, because they move quantity very efficiently. Everything would necessarily cost far more is all sales were limited to the relatively tiny quantities we each buy individually.
No need to do what you say with mintages, which is just wasteful. They can either price high, and lower mintages accordingly, or find a price/mintage combination that maximizes their profit while creating value for collectors, and profits for their Big Boy retail partners, as they did last year.
They can also just mint to demand during a specified ordering window, but people don't seem to like it when there is not a fixed mintage, and demand suffers as a result. All this said, you are 1,000% correct, and $95 is unjustifiable for a coin with less than $30 worth of silver in it with a mintage of 300K. And around 100K will go unsold as a result.
They should have left the price alone, and absorbed the increase in their variable cost, since their margins would still be sky high at last year's price of $80. As a result, they will be the ones paying the price for their avarice.
Current 2024 Morgan & Peace products delivered mintages. They've been flat for a month now. Next week's report may include the 2024 Proofs issuing at Noon today
Image shows where the deliveries were before the price increase:
Also 230th anniversary 2024 Silver Dollar images with price are live.
The raised 230 obverse banner is disappointing.
Yes I will buy a flowing hair...geez.... what a sucker.
As regard to the Morgan/Peace glut:
A private company will assess current inventory and then make production and marketing decisions based on that info.
Congress and the Mint will assess inventory and then go home and watch Netflix or whatever and completely disregard inventory or demand or perceived value or collectibilty.
I bet they're putting it on the gold flowing hair as well.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
I would actually want a couple again, for myself, but the way the mint has handled things, and the way they have priced things, they lost me as a customer for awhile.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I will confess to having some difficulty understanding all the negative energy being put into these (and various other) US Mint offerings.
They're not expensive, in the context of how much money so many people here put into their collecting.
Nobody pretends that they're for everyone.
Obviously, lots of people like them.
Could the Mint do a better, more consistent job of balancing price and supply? Possibly. Does it really matter? Other than to those hoping to flip them for a profit, none at all. And it's not the Mint's job to make money for flippers/dealers.
Don't like them? Don't buy them! What a concept!
Because people are pissed that the Mint felt the need to jack up the price by 20% on an item that was already priced at 300% of intrinsic value, with a mintage of nearly 300K. That's why "all the negative energy."
"Expensive" is relative, but no one likes feeling that they are being taken advantage of. People like them, and yet they are compelled to not buy them. Hence the disappointment and "negative energy."
I don't sell anything, so flipping isn't an issue for me. I love the coins, and yet refuse to buy them, given the price and the mintage. Clearly, I am not alone.
Putting flippers aside for a minute, it actually IS the Mint's job to make sure dealers can make money. Which is why they get volume discounts and special deals, like the Advance Release program. The Mint is a manufacturer and wholesaler. Dealers are their retail partners.
Difficult to sustain a market if your retailers don't make money. The Mint makes good money from its numismatic program. A lot more moving volume through the Big Boys than selling coins 1 or 5 at a time to us.
Overproducing and overpricing product benefits no one. Least of all the Mint, which left a lot of money on the table as compared to what they sold last year, even at the lower price.
I understand the gripe. I don't unerstand all the energy being put into the gripe.
Again, don't wanna buy the product (including feeling that it's too expensive)? Don't buy it. Yes, it really is that simple.
No amount of pissing and moaning on an internet message board will alter what the Mint does. So why bother whining about what is felt to be bad decisions by the Mint?
As a parting observation--The part of the Mint that sells collector coins/bullion is supposed to be run at a profit (not be subsidized by the taxpayers). I suspect that they know a lot more about how to do that than we do. Do they ever make mistakes? Sure they do (e.g., the first year of the modern Morgan and peace dollars). Is everything someone whines about actually a mistake? Of course not.
True. But you never know who's reading, or who might have influence with the powers that be at the Mint. Plus, there is a value to simple venting, or seeking validation from others. The same could be said about many threads on many topics in internet forums.
And, believe me, pricing and mintage on 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars was a HUGE mistake, as demonstrated by the decline in sales in one short year. Cost them several million dollars in lost revenue and profit, even at the higher price, given how substantial the margins are on that particular product. Pissing off their customers at the same time they reduced the profit they are supposed to be chasing.
I’m just tired of buying US Mint products and seeing them sold at reduced prices 5, 10, 15, 20 or more years later. Who wants to buy these products and pay a big premium when they can get them much cheaper in the future? There MAY be a sleeper, but for the most part it seems the same story year after year.
Arrived a few minutes before noon on Friday the 13th.
It isn’t the mint job to make dealers money. They are not partners and the mint is retail not them. Any bulk discounts or programs are hobby curtesies to middle men who may have customers who want to touch and buy or guilt buy a widget after hanging out for too long in their local B&M all the way up to managed promotions. The mint is under no obligation to leave meat on the bone nor would any gripe on a forum register at any level with any official. This point you keep making about leaving money on the table shows how little you comprehend about their motives or fiscal mechanism.
I want to see you make, package and ship such a product for under 100$ where 1/3 of the cost is materials. Your outrage and assertions are uninformed opinions, not facts. Where is you outrage over proof sets? It’s weird man, chill out.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Respectfully disagree. The Mint moves a lot more product through dealers than through its phone and website. While the Mint is under no obligation to leave meat on the bone, dealers are under no obligation to be a ready and substantial market for its wares.
I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make with proof sets, because all you are doing is making my point. If the Mint can make money pushing out a proof set containing 10, count 'em, 10 base metal coins for $35, it's reasonable to believe they can make money selling a single proof coin with less than $30 worth of silver for $65.
Beyond that, they should absolutely seek what the market will bear, and not be total P-I-G-S. $80 was plenty. $95 is obscene. Which is why around 100,000 of them will remain unsold.
My opinion is far from uninformed. Simple arithmetic will reveal they make more selling any widget for $15 less if they can increase sales by 100K, assuming they are covering their variable costs. Without regard to fixed costs, which, of course, are more easily covered as volume increases.
Their motive is clearly to make as much as possible, without regard to what they are doing to demand as they stretch beyond what the market will bear. And their fiscal mechanism is deeply flawed, as evidenced by the fact that they either chronically under produce, leaving excess profits for flippers, or over price and over produce, killing demand, as well as their own profit.
They very rarely get it right. There is absolutely no reason a 2024 proof AGE should sell for a $900 premium over intrinsic value, other than greed. They'd make a lot more money, and have many more coins over which to allocate their fixed costs, if they got a clue and priced them in line with the market for one ounce gold collector coins.
Same with these, although it's obviously a lower price point, so some people who want the coins will hold their noses and pay the price, resulting in higher sales than $3500 gold coins.
Define "expensive".
It's different for everyone and it's different in the overall view vs the item view as well.
While ~$100 may not be that expensive to some, it could be a month's, or more, budget to someone else. Then, they get something they may like for a bit but that will never appreciate in their lifetime (hyperbole maybe, but just saying).
Look at some of the 70s, 80s and even later, mint sets. Are/were they expensive? Not in the overall picture of pricing, but, look at their values today, and I think most can agree that buying them during/after that time, they were a bit on the expensive side...compared to what may have been purchased instead. Words can be played with around them, but their value isn't there, without errors/great toning, so they have been an expensive money pit for some. Me for instance
The thing, to me and maybe others, about these latest offerings, is what I see as a higher than it could be, margin for the mint. Yes, they have overhead etc etc etc. But, that is a HUGE premium for the silver value and the way they are handling things could also be better. I would like to see a "mint to demand", as I believe some others have mentioned as well, for stuff like this. Take the orders, lock the orders on a certain date, and then mint them and ship them, within a month or so, and let the collectors/market decide at that point. Charge for a return for anything except a damaged coin sent out. Maybe have 5-10% extra minted for that case. Maybe less.
Does it matter if they could do better? Yes. It does. Excusing continued incompetence for a government entity is enablement and shouldn't be promoted.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I have no problem with the Mint charging what they feel is a reasonable markup. I do have a problem with them not paying attention to demand, production and perceived value, that is basically it in a nutshell. The fact that numusmatists here on the board care about the morgan/peace reissue/reproduction is a positive not a negative.
They are over their skis on inventory now and it hurts to see this develop. It hurts values down the road and it will hurt demand/interest.
These are not proof sets. These are a legitimate effort to create ongoing interest in a historically significant popular series for further potential crossover to classic numismatics.
It will hurt us all if they blow it up.
While we are passing on 3x silver spot, others are paying 6x spot:
Right now, I (and 30 others) have the #1 registry set of the Modern Morgan/Peace dollars at NGC.
I bought a giant acrylic frame to showcase the set, it holds 18 coins. With the four remaining 2024 issues, the frame is full.
And I'm done. Between the difficulty of displaying it, the increased costs, grading fees, and some quality lapses (one of my factory-fresh RPs was graded RP-68 [yep, as of right now, with 377 graded, I own the low-ball]), the fun is just not there for 2025 and beyond.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I've decided not to buy any more also. I forgot to cancel my subscription however my credit card expired and consequently, the mint was unable to process the order. Lucky me. I wonder if I correct my credit card in the future, the Mint will fill prior subscriptions that were not filled earlier due to the credit card not being valid. Any insight on this?
It depends on one of two things. 1. If you want it you won't get it. 2. If you don't want it you will get it.
Took them up on their offer and ordered a few. The ones I received looked just fine, saw no issues. There was some smutz on one of the capsules.
Can you outline their investment potential? If they trading less than ASE. Beyond that no use 4 them.
"Save up to 30% on Select Coins and Sets
Limited time offer: 9/19/24 - 9/25/24
Thank you for your patronage! As a small token of our appreciation, the U.S. Mint is excited to offer you over 30 different products in silver, gold, and clad at discounts up to 30%.
We will email you a link to the special customer appreciation sales event the morning of 9/19/2024. Limited quantities available! First-come first-served basis, promotion expires 12 pm ET on 9/25/2024. Stay tuned!"
Just received this e-mail. Never saw anything like this before. EVER.
Not specifically the 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars, but still. Maybe they really DON'T actually know what they are doing. And maybe their margins are absolutely sick if they can afford to sell "at discounts up to 30%." Maybe anyone paying full price for anything from them really is a total sucker.
Not expensive to collectors on this forum or those who primarily buy (value wise) coins in TPG plastic.
Not cheap for the "typical" collector who isn't representative of most of those (or at least a substantial minority) who post on this forum.
Mintages on these are not low, whether it's 175K or 275K. That's in the range of numerous "real" Morgan and Peace dollars which can be bought in the same price range and are considered alternatives since few collectors ignore what else is available.
It's my inference that most are bought as part of a "side collection" (not primary interest) or by those who prioritize liquidity where posts in these threads indicate the buyers don't actually like it that much. It will always be available (in volume) any day of the week and IMO, at much lower premiums (though maybe not prices depending upon future spot) years from now.
There isn't any, other than from future temporary speculation. Way to common for the price considering the scarcity difference isn't meaningful vs. the most common circulating Morgan and Peace dollars, even though the quality is higher. The latter are nowhere close to cheap either given what both actually are as collectibles, widgets. No longer a one-year issue either, which I considered the only (or at least most likely) reason for it back in 2021.
I don't expect this series to get lost in future obscurity like practically every US modern commemorative or some of the NCLT, but that's not saying much.
I just got the same email. I strongly doubt the real reason for sale is "Customer Appreciation" How can you refute that claim?
Can you say "Fire Sale"
Marketing is great. For all you older folks I remember my marketing professor telling us how they legally got away with their promotion for Crisco shortening that made it a major household staple.
"Things fried right in Crisco are better than baked" Then showed only less that a teaspoon of shortening went into the chicken.
What they did not say was that "Right" meant you had to use, what cost $10,000 then, a commercial pressure cooker.
The devil is always in the details.
Actually, it's effing hilarious. One rich example is "20% Off select Gold Coins including a Coin of the Year Award winning design with our 2018 American Liberty One-Tenth Ounce Gold Proof Coin."
Basically a fugly coin they could not sell for $215 in 2018 is now going to be offered, as a gesture of "Customer Appreciation" in 2024 at 20% off the current price of $410. Thanks for nothing. 🤣🤣🤣
They REALLY don't understand their market. They made over 100K of them, they contain around $260 worth of gold, and they don't understand why they sit unsold at a $150 premium, when they are barely worth melt in the secondary market.
Dropping the premium to $70 isn't going to make a bit of difference to anyone. In fact, with a mintage of 135K and gold at $2600, they'd probably have trouble liquidating whatever they have left at melt. Which is why they probably should just call it a day, give the folks who are actually holding them a break, and actually melt whatever they have left.
But they apparently don't want to take the hit on the production cost, whatever convoluted formula they use to allocate overhead, packaging, etc. So instead we get this. Geniuses. Yeah, they know what they're doing!
dreamers think there will be recent issues
this will be super stale inventory they don't want to recycle
Last night Magic Mike had the Advance release Proof Morgan & Peace for $599.99.
Future value will be melt!
Better hurry and get them while they last as that ADVANCE RELEASE label is a real collectable.
What is the plan if the recent issues are super stale?
It's cheaper to sell them at a discount (loss) than having to pay a vendor to detrash them (mint speak for removing the precious metal and separating the various types of trash), and losing the seignorage.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
My one of each subscription Morgan and Peace Dollars arrived today. Morgan is flawless. The Peace has a tick on the obverse but pleasing overall.
Wash, rinse and repeat. Come back in 2030 for the Vault Sale of 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars. Likely 25% off of what will be a 100% markup from today's prices. Just like a loaf of bread, the magic ingredient to make Mint products super stale is time.
Just received my one ordered Peace dollar today and am enjoying the cameo surfaces. Isn't it great to take satisfaction and enjoyment from a purchase?
So glad that I don't spend my time constantly naysaying various numismatic issues in our hobby versus posting something that is positive entertainment. Can't imagine the stress of the constant dissatisfaction, possessing a delusional savior complex, and generating mental bile issued by certain posters on our board.
There was an e-mail sent out by the Mint yesterday announcing discounts of upto 30%
Wonder how many of these will find their way in to that bunch.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
You can stop wondering. The answer is going to be "none."
The Mint is going to be liquidating stale stock that has been sitting in a warehouse for years. They are absolutely not going to burn loyal customers who paid full price for anything released in 2024.
Given periodic price increases, you can also take it to the bank that the prices, after the discounts, are still going to be higher than the original prices, at which whatever they offer failed to sell-out. Basically not really a deal at all, since it's unlikely that anything they offer in this sale is not already available elsewhere for less.
Basically agree.
Easy on the mental bile. We must remain positive and entertaining......
My cousin gifted me a ‘21, I bought a ‘23—compulsion did not like the gap, so I bought D. Carr’s ‘22 version.
I’m building a strait flush, so I got the ‘24. All are slabbed 70.
So, having fessed to the question posed (who and why buy this product), without any other defense for my unreasoning in the face of the good reasoning you guys present: what are the chances that 2024 is the last year of the Peace dollar and that my straight goes bust?
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. I had cut the rest of my subscriptions a while back.
2024 Morgan & Peace including 3 days of Proof sales
2023 Morgan & Peace sales as of 9-15-2024
The 2021 Morgan & Peace Retro Dollar issues as of 9-15-2024
None. 200K people like you are willing to pay nearly $100 for an ounce of silver. Six times per year. They exist to exploit that demand, and will continue raising prices and lowering mintages until you and the others are cured of your compulsion. Enjoy!
I haven't put them side by side yet with the 2023 proof issue to compare, however the 2024 proof Morgan appears at first glance to have a smoother more uniform apperance to the frosted devices as opposed to last years heavy, gritty sandblast 'frost' which just didn't look right nor attractive to me.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.