What would you consider as average percentage premium for a Toner?
Cougar1978
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What is highest premium percent you paid for a Toner? Do you think some of them priced at moon money? Have you ever been ripped on one? Did not sticker, came back AT, etc.
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You're not "ripped on one" until you go to sell it and get substantially less.
I've been "ripped" on buying one and sold for a profit when I was (almost) ready to sell...and some may think the buyer was "ripped" but I honestly think, since he plans to own for a bit, that he will NOT be "ripped" when he goes to sell it.
Depends on the coin and the toning. Some are more common than others with toning and if the toning is NT and unique, throw the guide away.
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1-100
How nice is the toner?
I’ve paid 3x price guide for a few nice ones. Fantastic coins, worth every nickel IMO.
Dave
Three and a half times guide:
I’ve paid about 120x a comparable white coin. I don’t consider that crazy. I suspect I could sell it for a profit.
I have never bought a raw one for a huge premium so no risk on having it come back QC. I have bought coins in graded holders that were previously QC though. In those cases I obviously think the graders got it wrong the first time.
Between 0.5x and 150x is about right.
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Other side of the fence here but a great example of “Toner Tax”
I only have one "wild" toner and I paid about double guide (~$125 premium).
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I would deduct value. I generally prefer my coins without rust.
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Many (most?) folks here know I am a longtime advocate of wonderfully toned coinage, but in my experience the "average" toned coin has essentially neutral eye appeal, or perhaps slightly negative eye appeal, when compared to an untoned or "blast white" coin. Therefore, if we are writing about toned MS coinage, or unimpaired proof coins, I would suggest the "average" premium I would pay for the "average" coin is zero.
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Agree with TomB. And many coins with dark or fugly toning have a negative toning premium.
I’m biased - LOVE a nice toner! For a really really good one as much as 50%, but that’s just me, I admit!
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I neither pay for nor charge a substantial premium for attractively toned coins. And I’m not at all interested in bag toning, tape toning, wild toning, etc., but I do like concentric toning.
That said, when a dealer acquaintance at the monthly show priced this to me apologetically at full GS Ask, I didn’t haggle:
I have bid around 10 to 15 percent more than I normally would. This is not the most aggressive approach and four times out of five my bid is left in the dust. On the other hand I have won about 15 coins that I felt featured attractive toning and I never have buyer regret. james
In my opinion, you do not have the marketing experience or perspective necessary to evaluate toners that are unusually eye appealing. Therefore, to answer your question would be wasting time.
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running like a water color in the rain...."
I would say that it also depends on the basal value of the coin. If it is a common date Mercury dime, Franklin half or Washington quarter that is beautifully toned, 150x might be conservative. If it is rare date Seated or Barber coin, the rarity premium probably eats into the toning premium quite a bit.
I have paid about 10X for some really nice already slabbed. Like these.
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Depends on the base value of the coin. $50 Washington Quarter w/great toning? Sure, I've paid $150+. Would I pay 3x a $500 or $1500 coin though? Not as a toning premium, no.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
While I am no longer buying coins, if I were I would pay no premium for toners. I learned my lesson on that back in 2004 at the ANA when I attempted to sell my toners for a premium. "Not what we are looking for".
Lots of dealers call the premium they charge a. "Toning Tax".
just another way dealers can increase their margin
They won't pay that. Must find a COLLECTOR who has the TONING LUST.
and willing to pay the Tax.
I prefer an original FML gem white coin. Toning is Rust as someone said above.
PLUS alot of AT out there to confuse those collectors who like such.
Plus toning can hide ALOT of problems, not seen in a photo, or looked at on a bourse floor.
the pretty colors cloud your judgement/ analysis.
I been guilty of all the above as I have grown in experience , but experience has sharpened my judgements about toned coins.
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Like most things in life: it depends.
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All of this is decided on a coin by coin basis… there are no special percentages or formulas. It is about who likes it , who wants it, where and how it is being offered for sale and who the participants may be.
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Stunningly beautiful coins command premiums that with most enthusiasts are only provided with "throw-out-the-sheet" prices.
Well, as some said, it depends. In this month I tried to bid couple China 1934 Junk boat coins. I think I paid two times for some toned coins. However, for a nicely toned PCGS MS 64, regular price is about 500 and I got outbid for 2K then I gave up. For a MS 63 regular price is 300-400 I bid 1500 plus fee then gave up. It sold for 2300.
For commems, it depends on whether it's real toning, and most importantly, the issue. Finding a very pretty BTW, WashCarver or San Diego is no problem and they command fairly small premiums. A multi-colored Bridgeport, Lincoln, Connecticut , Huguenot or Hawaii can cost many multiples of the value of a white coin.
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There aren’t many great gold toners, so I’ve ponied up for a few of them.
You can’t really put a fixed number on the “toner premium” because evert toned coin is different. The ugly ones sell at a discount, at least to those who have an esthetic sense. The exceptional examples sell for moon money. A commemorative half dollar, which would normally sell for a few hundred dollars for the Mint State grade under the toning can sell for $30 to $50 thousand if the blog postings are accurate. Toning can also boost slab grades. I’ve seen pieces that grade MS-62 under the toning get boosted to MS-64.
Toners are most often found on silver coins, but they also appear on copper-nickel and copper pieces as well. Such items are rarer than their silver counterparts, but the best of them are not as spectacular as their silver counterparts. Therefore I’ve seen offered at premium prices, but not moon money.
To me gold coin toners are those very unusual pieces when the copper and gold alloy tones to a rich, pleasing golden color. Plain old copper spots can lower the value of a gold coin. The so-called “crusty gold” coins which turn an ugly brown have no allure for me whatsoever.
There are several collectors here that pay a premium for coins that are barely readable (certified lowball coins)…something that I certainly wouldn’t pay a premium for. To each their own….and if you can afford it and like it, then buy it. Nothing more frustrating than lamenting and beating yourself up over the ‘one that got away.’ I’ve learned in my 67 years on this earth is that is doesn’t matter if someone else likes it…it’s whether YOU like it! Cheers, karl
It varies based on luster, the colors present, strength/vibrancy of the colors, patterns, grade, and overall eye appeal.
Great point, Bill. Even if you’re paying sheet for a given coin, a significant toning premium may be baked in by the TPG.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I'm with Ricko on this subject....
"Why would I pay extra for tarnish?!"
Anywhere from 10-1000% depending on the series and price range. Morgans, mercs or commems routinely sell for multiples of their “guide”, sometimes it’s multiple multiples. There are more parallels with the fine art market than commodities when it comes to nice toning.
Up the ladder in price things start to level out and then by the time you get to 5 figures or more there’s many issues that will have no premium at all for color, since the top dogs for that series prefer white coins. It goes full circle, go figure.
As stated in the thread, the important thing is to recognize how much influence (if any) the color has had on the grade, so you don’t fall victim to what we call “double taxation”.
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The quality of toning varies about as much as the premium (or discounts) people pay.
As many stated early on, it depends on a lot of factors, but the really large multiples seem to occur on fantastic original multicolor toning on Gem and Superb Gem coins that are fairly inexpensive when found in it's more common state.
The more expensive a coin is in a nice "regular state" ... think a lightly toned Capped Bust vs a vibrant naturally toned Capped Bust in AU58 or Unc ... and the premiums are usually much smaller (percentage-wise) than something like a Superb War Nickel in Blast White vs a multicolored album-type Target Tone.
Of course, even though the percentages are smaller, often times the overall dollar premium is higher.
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“What would you consider as average percentage premium for a Toner?”
I’d consider the average percentage premium for a “Toner” to be
meaningless.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This is such a broad question. So many different questions and variables.
It really boils down to what percentage a specific coin might bring. I think its next to impossible to say as an example 30%.
Its all over the place.
Comes down to the coin.
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When I bought this, Greysheet was around 150? I offered $200 and got it.
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It’s a tougher slab, too! One of my favorite Morgans!
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It must have been in a mint bag. The circular area / think a coin was there preventing the toning. Interesting.
I traded a slabbed VF cc $5 gold piece plus $500 for this 1880-s PCGS MS64 Morgan. You can do the math.
No Brainer... Beautiful coin..
Too broad a question and any average answer would be meaningless. I think the key question to answer is how easy is it to find another? This could include other factors besides unusual toning such as the holder and sticker combination which are also marketing variables.
I hate to admit it, but I paid a ridiculous premium for this coin (recent holder) and I know I'm crazy:
Yes, if it were not this dramatic, it's run of the mill common coin that's not worth much. Yet, find another like it. Ultimately, from a collector's standpoint, I wanted to own such a distinctive coin and was willing to step up to own it. Sometimes, emotion will over rule common logic. YMMV
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
I’m not talking about orange or brown toning on gold.
I’m not a toner person. I like them, but I don’t pay crazy money for them. I do understand there’s a market for them and a lot of the people participating have deep pockets. That being said, I would pay double retail, if I really liked it. I used to be able to cherry pick toners, but it’s getting more and more difficult.
PS- I forgot about Mr. Loungecock… whatever happened to him??
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I echo the comments here that it is hugely subjective. There will be instances where I have no issues paying an X$ or Y% premium for a piece. I may look at another coin, totally within whatever X and Y maybe, but decide “I can’t spend 65 money for an au50 coin”. As a concept I think @Catbert put forth of “how easy it is to find another” resonates.
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It all depends on whether its "attractive toning", IMHO. I don't mind yellowing, or even rainbow toning, if its subtle. But when a coin is on the verge of turning black, it just looks like its been through a fire.
