1909-S cent with V.D.B. is a variety

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mr1931S
mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 24, 2024 10:05AM in U.S. Coin Forum

At least that's what Q. David Bowers has said.

"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-

Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

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  • rsei0120
    rsei0120 Posts: 127 ✭✭
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    very nice coin

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2024 3:41PM
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    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    Is it the "Whispering" variety? :D

    The coin I pictured (one of the finest known 1909-S V.D.B. cents) is not the whispering V.D.B. variety of 1909-S. But they certainly do exist. Anyone familiar with Bert Harsche's book on counterfeit and altered coins, specifically the 5th or 6th edition, knows this. I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking. :)

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2024 9:52PM
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    B)

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2024 7:00PM
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    @mr1931S said:

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    Is it the "Whispering" variety? :D

    I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking. :)

    Okay, is or was this an 09-S-VDB? I've posted this coin many times before. I'm just hoping for another answer. 😂 🤣

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2024 9:53PM
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    B)

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    That doesn't help me. Both center lines on the B are slanted up.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @OAKSTAR said:
    That doesn't help me. Both center lines on the B are slanted up.

    I think he may have been showing you the placement of the dot after the D. ;)

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Doesn't this dot look close to the genuine one?

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @OAKSTAR said:
    Doesn't this dot look close to the genuine one?

    Yes, the placement on yours looks correct.
    That dot moves around a little bit on the VDB's and many times is closer to the D.

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Got it, thanks. I'm just wondering if there are any other die marks that would point to a genuine S-VDB without seeing the S mint mark?

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @OAKSTAR said:
    I'm just wondering if there are any other die marks that would point to a genuine S-VDB without seeing the S mint mark?

    I don't know of any other markers that would confirm it for sure.
    If you look at the 4 mint mark positions for a S VDB it would appear that Die #1, 2 & 3 would still show part of the S on the edge of the hole. That would leave die #4 as the only possibility. If it was a Die #4 the hole is in the perfect place to remove the entire mint mark. So in other words you have about a 25% chance that it was an S.

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2024 9:53PM
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    B)

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2024 9:53PM
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    B)

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2024 9:54PM
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    B)

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @burfle23 said:

    I don't know if my eyes are playing tricks on me but his N almost looks like a cross of a shallow & deep N?
    Maybe I'm just tired and need to go to bed. ;)

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Is this a shallow N? I can't tell.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I don't think it is but I can take better pictures tomorrow.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @OAKSTAR said:
    Is this a shallow N? I can't tell.

    That is the deep N

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @burfle23 said:

    @OAKSTAR said:
    That doesn't help me. Both center lines on the B are slanted up.

    Didn't hurt you either...

    If it's not helping me, it's hurting me! 😂 🤣 😉

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @robec said:
    I think it’s the shallow N. All the shallow N’s have a webbing (for lack of a better description) at the V. Depending on the lighting it may look deeper than it is, but the deep N is a straight cut with none of the web look.

    Maybe @OAKSTAR can get a better photo of it for us. ;)

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @burfle23 said:
    Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

    I don't know. You're the expert, why don't you tell us?

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Options

    @ifthevamzarockin said:

    @robec said:
    I think it’s the shallow N. All the shallow N’s have a webbing (for lack of a better description) at the V. Depending on the lighting it may look deeper than it is, but the deep N is a straight cut with none of the web look.

    Maybe @OAKSTAR can get a better photo of it for us. ;)

    Stby........

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ifthevamzarockin said:

    @mr1931S said:
    I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here.

    You proved to the forum that you can't tell a real S VDB from a counterfeit one even after everyone on the forum explains it to you for 3 months. :D

    Have you bought yourself an SVDB yet? You were telling everyone on the forum about them but said you didn't own one, as I recall.

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Options

    Here's my SVDB. Fake or real?

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Options

    @mr1931S said:
    Here's my SVDB. Fake or real?

    If it was fake we wouldn't take another 3 months to explain it to you. :D

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @mr1931S said:

    @burfle23 said:
    Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

    I don't know. You're the expert, why don't you tell us?

    I don't recall stating that here like you did B) ...

    You stated:

    " I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking. :)".

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ifthevamzarockin said:

    @robec said:
    I think it’s the shallow N. All the shallow N’s have a webbing (for lack of a better description) at the V. Depending on the lighting it may look deeper than it is, but the deep N is a straight cut with none of the web look.

    Maybe @OAKSTAR can get a better photo of it for us. ;)

    Stby........

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ifthevamzarockin said:

    @mr1931S said:
    Here's my SVDB. Fake or real?

    If it was fake we wouldn't take another 3 months to explain it to you. :D

    Maybe "we" wouldn't but my money is on that you would.

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • robec
    robec Posts: 7,051 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    ..
    Posted by mistake.

    - Bob -

    MPL's - Lincolns of Colorimage
    Central Valley Roosevelts

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2024 11:31AM
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    @burfle23 said:

    @mr1931S said:

    @burfle23 said:
    Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

    I don't know. You're the expert, why don't you tell us?

    I don't recall stating that here like you did B) ...

    You stated:

    " I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking. :)".

    Are you acknowledging me as the 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. expert around here now? If so, please stop as being recognized as such I am not worthy of. Now, Harsche, there's your real expert. The only discrepency, if you will, in Harsche's 5th and 6th editions of Detecting Counterfeit and Altered Coins is that Harsche never saw what we now know as 1909-S V.D.B. from PCGS obverse die #1. Obviously, no expert can identify and list what they don't see. It so happens that a 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent from PCGS obverse die #1 is scarcer than an example from any of the other three obverse dies used for SVDB. The difference between the dies is in the position of the 's' mintmark.

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2024 11:55AM
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    @mr1931S said:

    @burfle23 said:

    @mr1931S said:

    @burfle23 said:
    Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

    I don't know. You're the expert, why don't you tell us?

    I don't recall stating that here like you did B) ...

    You stated:

    " I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking. :)".

    Are you acknowledging me as the 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. expert around here now? If so, please stop as being recognized as such I am not worthy of. Now, Harsche, there's your real expert. The only discrepency, if you will, in Harsche's 5th and 6th editions of Detecting Counterfeit and Altered Coins is that Harsche never saw what we now know as 1909-S V.D.B. from PCGS obverse die #1. Obviously, no expert can identify and list what they don't see. It so happens that a 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent from PCGS obverse die #1 is scarcer than an example from any of the other three obverse dies used for SVDB. The difference between the dies is in the position of the 's' mintmark.

    I seldom agree with anything I see you spout here; please get a life outside of here...

  • Steven59
    Steven59 Posts: 11,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Did everybody get the new book by Harsche?..................

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @OAKSTAR This one sure makes it look like a shallow N.

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Waiting for Harsche confirmation...

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @burfle23 said:
    Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

    @mr1931S I was honestly asking if this one meets your definition of the whispering VDB variety.

  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    That's what I was thinking @ifthevamzarockin

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • telephoto1
    telephoto1 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2024 12:30PM
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    @burfle23 said:

    Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

    09 S. N in UNITED not right.


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @telephoto1 said:
    09 S. N in UNITED not right.

    I think he is asking if the VDB is right. ;)

  • robec
    robec Posts: 7,051 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ifthevamzarockin said:

    @telephoto1 said:
    09 S. N in UNITED not right.

    I think he is asking if the VDB is right. ;)

    If the VDB is right on this coin, the S mint mark is a fake. No authentic SVDB has a reverse with that N.

    - Bob -

    MPL's - Lincolns of Colorimage
    Central Valley Roosevelts

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @robec said:
    If the VDB is right on this coin, the S mint mark is a fake. No authentic SVDB has a reverse with that N.

    Is the VDB right?

  • Steven59
    Steven59 Posts: 11,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Looks like deep N - yellow arrow points to (what looks like) "gunk" in the crotch ( :o )

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

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