@mr1931S said:
Mintmark position #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. was NOT USED for 1909-S without V.D.B. The other three were.
It appears that you have that backwards, mintmark #1 was used and none of the other 3 were.
You really should take some time to research things before you post them as facts.
No, I don't have it backwards. READ and try to understand what I wrote. Mintmark position #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. was NOT USED FOR 1909-S WITHOUT V.D.B.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
I am convinced that the SF mint in 1909 used 's' position to keep track of which die was in use on the factory floor at any given time when the coins, 1909-S AND 1909-S V.D.B., were being made. Can you all see the orderly progression of the 's' from higher to lower and from left to right as you view the images from #1 to #4? That did not happen by chance, sports fans. Those 's' placements and 's' tilts were done deliberately to track the various dies used while making the coins.
The same kind of order in 's' position for six different obverse dies can be seen in the Harsche obverse images for 1909-S without V.D.B. on page 15 of Detecting Altered Coins.
This doesn't make sense. The easier way for the Mint to track which dies were being used would be to look and see what die was in the coin press. The only use for an intentional mark on the die would be to trace the coin back to the die AFTER it left the Mint. There is no evidence that the Mint ever did this.
The progression you see is likely from the people who cataloged out later. They labeled them 1 to 4 - the Mint didn't - and likely did it in West to East positioning of the MM.
@mr1931S said:
I am convinced that the SF mint in 1909 used 's' position to keep track of which die was in use on the factory floor at any given time when the coins, 1909-S AND 1909-S V.D.B., were being made. Can you all see the orderly progression of the 's' from higher to lower and from left to right as you view the images from #1 to #4? That did not happen by chance, sports fans. Those 's' placements and 's' tilts were done deliberately to track the various dies used while making the coins.
The same kind of order in 's' position for six different obverse dies can be seen in the Harsche obverse images for 1909-S without V.D.B. on page 15 of Detecting Altered Coins.
The dies were created in Philadelphia and shipped to SF. I doubt the die sinkers in Philly said "Hey, lets make subtle differences in mint mark placements so the coiners in SF can keep track of the dies." No one cared about that in 1909, especially on a cent die.
New design. The SF mint would have had questions about the quality of the strikes on the Lincoln set that they could get out of a set of dies. What better way to answer such questions than to make slight changes in the position of the mintmark on the dies as they are used to identify the dies used?
Look how different in appearance a coin made from die #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. is compared to #2, #3, and #4. Someone in authority at the SF mint in 1909 ordered die #1 taken out of service soon after production started because he didn't like what he saw with those first strikes of 1909-S V.D.B.?
People should try to keep an open mind about things rather than have the mindset that "If I didn't think it up, it can't be so."
"No one cared about that in 1909, especially on a cent die."
Just love the sweeping generalization, like seen directly above, to start my day. Can we expect there will be evidence forthcoming to support the validity of the " no one cared" statement?
People shouldn't think up things and call them facts. People should do research.
The only reason to mark coins would be to track them through circulation. This would only need to be done if there were an alloy difference or something of that nature.
Again, you're trying to invent a reason. If the Mint wants to know about the quality of the strike, they would just inspect the coins as they came off the press. They are only using one die pair at a time.
Keep trying. Maybe you'll come up with a good reason for your made up supposition about the mintmarks.
You would see EXACTLY THE SAME PROGRESSION for all dies used at the Mint during this period. The MM was hand punched. It naturally moved around. If you then lined up the coins by MM position you could ALWAYS create a West to East ordering even though the punching was random at the time it was done.
@mr1931S said:
The fifth die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. may not exist but I look for it anyway. Looking doesn't cost any money but make the discovery of a fifth obverse die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. that's not supposed to exist? Yowza!
Here you go again trying to prove a 5th die that never existed, I thought we covered that last time.
You just can't help making up facts with your overactive imagination.
@burfle23 said:
We just continue to feed the troll...
Yes but he has attention deficit disorder.... if he doesn't get enough attention it causes a disorder.
Do you have a degree in clinical psychology?
I really don't get how I can "troll" a thread that I started. Don't like what I write, don't read it. And if you do read what I write and don't agree with it, try to avoid the ad hominem attack. Did you know that ad hominem is the last resort for one who has exhausted making any logical argument(s) that he or she might have had? When the well runs dry, just bring out the ad hominem, or "to the man" logical fallacy, a sorry mindset at work. I have to say it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I apologize to readers here who want to find out learn some things about 1909-S cents that maybe, just maybe they didn't know before entering this thread. The trouble makers here speak for themselves so my suggestion to you is just try to filter their carp out of your head as you glean a few tidbits of information about 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. cents. Take . The only way I'm leaving here is if PCGS, our host here, kicks me off the forum OR if I decide to leave of my own volition.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
I am convinced that the SF mint in 1909 used 's' position to keep track of which die was in use on the factory floor at any given time when the coins, 1909-S AND 1909-S V.D.B., were being made. Can you all see the orderly progression of the 's' from higher to lower and from left to right as you view the images from #1 to #4? That did not happen by chance, sports fans. Those 's' placements and 's' tilts were done deliberately to track the various dies used while making the coins.
The same kind of order in 's' position for six different obverse dies can be seen in the Harsche obverse images for 1909-S without V.D.B. on page 15 of Detecting Altered Coins.
The dies were created in Philadelphia and shipped to SF. I doubt the die sinkers in Philly said "Hey, lets make subtle differences in mint mark placements so the coiners in SF can keep track of the dies." No one cared about that in 1909, especially on a cent die.
New design. The SF mint would have had questions about the quality of the strikes on the new one cent pieces that they could get out of a set of dies. What better way to answer such questions than to make slight changes in the position of the mintmark on the dies as they are used to identify the dies used?
Look how different in appearance a coin made from die #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. is compared to #2, #3, and #4. Someone in authority at the SF mint in 1909 ordered die #1 taken out of service soon after production started because he didn't like what he saw with those first strikes of 1909-S V.D.B.?
People should try to keep an open mind about things rather than have the mindset that "If I didn't think it up, it can't be so."
"No one cared about that in 1909, especially on a cent die."
Just love the sweeping generalization, like seen directly above, to start my day. Can we expect there will be evidence forthcoming to support the validity of the " no one cared" statement?
You are still ignoring the fact the Philly created the dies and punched the mink mark, not SF.
Also, assuming SF wanted to "identify the die", the easiest way would be to punch a number into the shank at SF, not create subtle mink mark position differences 3000 miles away in Philly, that you hope the coiner in SF can differentiate.
You are still ignoring the fact the Philly created the dies and punched the mink mark, not SF. Also, assuming SF wanted to "identify the die", the easiest way would be to punch a number into the shank at SF, not create subtle mink mark position differences 3000 miles away in Philly, that you hope the coiner in SF can differentiate.
Oh, I see. According to you, the powers that be at the Mint in Philadelphia had no interest in the quality of the San Francisco mint produced Lincoln cents of 1909.
The second sweeping generalization today can be seen above in italics (mine). This day just keeps getting better and better.
Because the 's' mintmark was applied to the dies in Philadelphia, not San Francisco, should have no bearing on mint officials' interest in the quality of their product. Does it really matter in this discussion about 's' mintmark positions on the Lincoln cent coin where on Earth the 's' mintmark was punched onto the dies from which those San Francisco coins were produced?
Well, it's been fun this morning visiting with you all but I've got a basketball game to attend to in a little while so,
So Long For Now,
mr1931s
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
The trouble makers here speak for themselves so my suggestion to you is just try to filter their carp out of your head as you glean a few tidbits of information about 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. cents.
@mr1931S said:
Oh, I see. According to you, the powers that be at the Mint in Philadelphia had no interest in the quality of the San Francisco mint produced Lincoln cents of 1909.
Well, if they did, they lost interest around 1920.
Do you know any of the die numbers the mint used on the dies?
Hint: It's not die 1,2,3 & 4
What's the matter is that question too tough for you? Doesn't the book of Harsche have this info?
Not a dumb question but a rather silly one to ask here. I mean, who other than you cares about the mint's die numbers? Harsche had his own system for identifying the dies. He also provides images of the obverse of cents for all the different 1909-S V.D.B. and 1909-S's that he saw. He saw examples from three out of the four obverse dies used for 1909-S V.D.B. and they are pictured in his book. Same for 1909-S without V.D.B. There are six of those and images of all six 's' positions for 1909-S without V.D.B. are also shown in his book.
Frankly, why should anyone care about the die numbers the mint used? Did they make pictures to go along with their die numbers? The pictures in Harsche's publication and Harsche's system of distinguishing the die variations from one another should be good enough for use by the numismatic researcher of the 1909-S and the 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
Not a dumb question but a rather silly one to ask here. I mean, who other than you cares about the mint's die numbers? Harsche had his own system for identifying the dies. He also provides images of the obverse of cents for all the different 1909-S V.D.B. and 1909-S's that he saw. He saw examples from three out of the four obverse dies used for 1909-S V.D.B. and they are pictured in his book. Same for 1909-S without V.D.B. There are six of those and images of all six 's' positions for 1909-S without V.D.B. are also shown in his book.
Frankly, why should anyone care about the die numbers the mint used? Did they make pictures to go along with their die numbers? The pictures in Harsche's publication and Harsche's system of identifying the die variations from one another should be good enough for the numismatic researcher of the 1909-S and the 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents.
You didn't answer the question.
I know it's easier for you to deflect or change the subject, that is your M.O.
You were the one saying the mint tracked the dies by the mint mark and I said they track them by number.
I can back up what I am saying, can you back up what you are saying about tracking by mint mark?
Why don't you answer the question? I have no interest in knowing the mint's die numbers for 1909-S cents but some readers here might be interested in those numbers.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here.
Well I asked what die numbers were used.
And why would they need to track dies by mint mark when they can just track them by the number on the die? Why are you avoiding the questions?
I am just trying to learn and I thought you were going to teach us.
@mr1931S said:
Why don't you answer the question? I have no interest in knowing the mint's die numbers for 1909-S cents but some readers here might be interested in those numbers.
So are you saying you were wrong and the mint didn't track the dies by the mint mark?
@burfle23 said:
My 1st attempt to see how the ignore function works...
I have tried it before but my curiosity gets the best of me and I just have to look.
Just like looking at a car wreck, you know you are going to see something you don't want to but you have to look anyway.
Do you know any of the die numbers the mint used on the dies?
Hint: It's not die 1,2,3 & 4
What's the matter is that question too tough for you? Doesn't the book of Harsche have this info?
Not a dumb question but a rather silly one to ask here. I mean, who other than you cares about the mint's die numbers? Harsche had his own system for identifying the dies. He also provides images of the obverse of cents for all the different 1909-S V.D.B. and 1909-S's that he saw. He saw examples from three out of the four obverse dies used for 1909-S V.D.B. and they are pictured in his book. Same for 1909-S without V.D.B. There are six of those and images of all six 's' positions for 1909-S without V.D.B. are also shown in his book.
Frankly, why should anyone care about the die numbers the mint used? Did they make pictures to go along with their die numbers? The pictures in Harsche's publication and Harsche's system of distinguishing the die variations from one another should be good enough for use by the numismatic researcher of the 1909-S and the 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents.
So, did they care or not? Genuinely confused. I thought you were arguing that they cared enough to subtly change the minkmark positions. But now you're saying no one cared enough to look at the actual number on the die itself?
"Ignore" didn't work out for me. I once had five of you cats on "Ignore." At the time I used the Ignore function, five individuals on "Ignore" was the max one could do.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Between you and your little book of Harsche you can't tell me anything about the die numbers.
I thought you and Harsche were the experts.
Apparent to me you don't want to learn. You just want to be a pain in the (fill in the blank). I'm deleting my post with the link to the Harsche book.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
"Ignore" didn't work out for me. I once had five of you cats on "Ignore." At the time I used the Ignore function, five individuals on "Ignore" was the max one could do.
Do you know any of the die numbers the mint used on the dies?
Hint: It's not die 1,2,3 & 4
What's the matter is that question too tough for you? Doesn't the book of Harsche have this info?
Not a dumb question but a rather silly one to ask here. I mean, who other than you cares about the mint's die numbers? Harsche had his own system for identifying the dies. He also provides images of the obverse of cents for all the different 1909-S V.D.B. and 1909-S's that he saw. He saw examples from three out of the four obverse dies used for 1909-S V.D.B. and they are pictured in his book. Same for 1909-S without V.D.B. There are six of those and images of all six 's' positions for 1909-S without V.D.B. are also shown in his book.
Frankly, why should anyone care about the die numbers the mint used? Did they make pictures to go along with their die numbers? The pictures in Harsche's publication and Harsche's system of distinguishing the die variations from one another should be good enough for use by the numismatic researcher of the 1909-S and the 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents.
So, did they care or not? Genuinely confused. I thought you were arguing that they cared enough to subtly change the minkmark positions. But now you're saying no one cared enough to look at the actual number on the die itself?
Why would they read the numbers clearly engraved on the die when they could just look at the very subtle difference in the position of the "S"?
In fact, I'm not sure why they EVER bothered to put serial numbers on the dies when they could have just subtly moved around the Mint marks or put a little tick mark around the rim. The need to get a loupe out to determine which die was being used would definitely make the workers focus more on their work.
When I worked at the Mint, my supervisor came over and asked me which die I was using. I reached for the loupe but then put it down and pointed at the press, "THAT one!"
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Between you and your little book of Harsche you can't tell me anything about the die numbers.
I thought you and Harsche were the experts.
Apparent to me you don't want to learn. You just want to be a pain in the (fill in the blank). I'm deleting my post with the link to the Harsche book.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Between you and your little book of Harsche you can't tell me anything about the die numbers.
I thought you and Harsche were the experts.
Apparent to me you don't want to learn. You just want to be a pain in the (fill in the blank). I'm deleting my post with the link to the Harsche book.
I have a coin photo taken way back when (?) I saw while doing that montage.
It's has an image in the NE. Wheat stalk , exactly where a hole was placed on that 1909 reverse . It was filled in with a green slime, half way. I know it's, not an 09, although it is a wheat stalk.
Just FYI.
Comments
No, I don't have it backwards. READ and try to understand what I wrote. Mintmark position #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. was NOT USED FOR 1909-S WITHOUT V.D.B.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
This doesn't make sense. The easier way for the Mint to track which dies were being used would be to look and see what die was in the coin press. The only use for an intentional mark on the die would be to trace the coin back to the die AFTER it left the Mint. There is no evidence that the Mint ever did this.
The progression you see is likely from the people who cataloged out later. They labeled them 1 to 4 - the Mint didn't - and likely did it in West to East positioning of the MM.
BYE.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
People shouldn't think up things and call them facts. People should do research.
The only reason to mark coins would be to track them through circulation. This would only need to be done if there were an alloy difference or something of that nature.
Again, you're trying to invent a reason. If the Mint wants to know about the quality of the strike, they would just inspect the coins as they came off the press. They are only using one die pair at a time.
Keep trying. Maybe you'll come up with a good reason for your made up supposition about the mintmarks.
You would see EXACTLY THE SAME PROGRESSION for all dies used at the Mint during this period. The MM was hand punched. It naturally moved around. If you then lined up the coins by MM position you could ALWAYS create a West to East ordering even though the punching was random at the time it was done.
I'm pretty sure he can. He just did.
Do you have a degree in clinical psychology?
I really don't get how I can "troll" a thread that I started. Don't like what I write, don't read it. And if you do read what I write and don't agree with it, try to avoid the ad hominem attack. Did you know that ad hominem is the last resort for one who has exhausted making any logical argument(s) that he or she might have had? When the well runs dry, just bring out the ad hominem, or "to the man" logical fallacy, a sorry mindset at work. I have to say it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I apologize to readers here who want to find out learn some things about 1909-S cents that maybe, just maybe they didn't know before entering this thread. The trouble makers here speak for themselves so my suggestion to you is just try to filter their carp out of your head as you glean a few tidbits of information about 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. cents. Take
. The only way I'm leaving here is if PCGS, our host here, kicks me off the forum OR if I decide to leave of my own volition. 
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
My 1st attempt to see how the ignore function works...
You are still ignoring the fact the Philly created the dies and punched the mink mark, not SF.
Also, assuming SF wanted to "identify the die", the easiest way would be to punch a number into the shank at SF, not create subtle mink mark position differences 3000 miles away in Philly, that you hope the coiner in SF can differentiate.
This is exactly the problem you have!
@mr1931S The dies are numbered on the back or side of the die they track them that way NOT by the mint mark position.
If you would do any research you would know this.
It's just easier for you to make up BS.
@mr1931S I have a serious question for you.
Do you know any of the die numbers the mint used on the dies?
Hint: It's not die 1,2,3 & 4
You are still ignoring the fact the Philly created the dies and punched the mink mark, not SF. Also, assuming SF wanted to "identify the die", the easiest way would be to punch a number into the shank at SF, not create subtle mink mark position differences 3000 miles away in Philly, that you hope the coiner in SF can differentiate.
Oh, I see. According to you, the powers that be at the Mint in Philadelphia had no interest in the quality of the San Francisco mint produced Lincoln cents of 1909.
The second sweeping generalization today can be seen above in italics (mine). This day just keeps getting better and better.
Because the 's' mintmark was applied to the dies in Philadelphia, not San Francisco, should have no bearing on mint officials' interest in the quality of their product. Does it really matter in this discussion about 's' mintmark positions on the Lincoln cent coin where on Earth the 's' mintmark was punched onto the dies from which those San Francisco coins were produced?
Well, it's been fun this morning visiting with you all but I've got a basketball game to attend to in a little while so,
So Long For Now,
mr1931s
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
What's the matter is that question too tough for you? Doesn't the book of Harsche have this info?
You are the only carp here.
Don't you dare change that avatar. I love it!
Thanks @CoinHoarder
How did I know you would not even try to answer this question?
Well, if they did, they lost interest around 1920.
I have been to a basketball game, so haven't been around here for a few hours. Is that okay?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Oh sure that's okay.
Are you ready to take a stab at it?
Not a dumb question but a rather silly one to ask here. I mean, who other than you cares about the mint's die numbers? Harsche had his own system for identifying the dies. He also provides images of the obverse of cents for all the different 1909-S V.D.B. and 1909-S's that he saw. He saw examples from three out of the four obverse dies used for 1909-S V.D.B. and they are pictured in his book. Same for 1909-S without V.D.B. There are six of those and images of all six 's' positions for 1909-S without V.D.B. are also shown in his book.
Frankly, why should anyone care about the die numbers the mint used? Did they make pictures to go along with their die numbers? The pictures in Harsche's publication and Harsche's system of distinguishing the die variations from one another should be good enough for use by the numismatic researcher of the 1909-S and the 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You didn't answer the question.
I know it's easier for you to deflect or change the subject, that is your M.O.
You were the one saying the mint tracked the dies by the mint mark and I said they track them by number.
I can back up what I am saying, can you back up what you are saying about tracking by mint mark?
Why would they need to track dies by mint mark when they can just track them by the number on the die?
Dang! I thought you were going to come back and answer the question.
Why don't you answer the question? I have no interest in knowing the mint's die numbers for 1909-S cents but some readers here might be interested in those numbers.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Well I asked what die numbers were used.
And why would they need to track dies by mint mark when they can just track them by the number on the die?
Why are you avoiding the questions?
I am just trying to learn and I thought you were going to teach us.
So are you saying you were wrong and the mint didn't track the dies by the mint mark?
What convinced you of that?
Can you back that up with any proof?
Because you said you can answer any questions.
@mr1931S When you come here and try to BS the forum you just make yourself look silly.
I have tried it before but my curiosity gets the best of me and I just have to look.
Just like looking at a car wreck, you know you are going to see something you don't want to but you have to look anyway.
So, did they care or not? Genuinely confused. I thought you were arguing that they cared enough to subtly change the minkmark positions. But now you're saying no one cared enough to look at the actual number on the die itself?
deleted
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I thought you were answering questions not selling books.
And you still won't answer the questions.
Between you and your little book of Harsche you can't tell me anything about the die numbers.
I thought you and Harsche were the experts.
"Ignore" didn't work out for me. I once had five of you cats on "Ignore." At the time I used the Ignore function, five individuals on "Ignore" was the max one could do.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Apparent to me you don't want to learn. You just want to be a pain in the (fill in the blank). I'm deleting my post with the link to the Harsche book.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
It still is. 4 after you...
Why would they read the numbers clearly engraved on the die when they could just look at the very subtle difference in the position of the "S"?
In fact, I'm not sure why they EVER bothered to put serial numbers on the dies when they could have just subtly moved around the Mint marks or put a little tick mark around the rim. The need to get a loupe out to determine which die was being used would definitely make the workers focus more on their work.
When I worked at the Mint, my supervisor came over and asked me which die I was using. I reached for the loupe but then put it down and pointed at the press, "THAT one!"
That's a bit harsche.
Congratulations! You've earned a new badge! Wear it proudly. You've earned it!
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Ignore works well; I can only see his inane quotes that folks post...
Is it "Harsche"?
Or is it "Harshe"?
This is the question for the ages.
Few threads around here have needed to die like this one has, for a long time.
No comment.
What ? I was bored .
I have a coin photo taken way back when (?) I saw while doing that montage.
It's has an image in the NE. Wheat stalk , exactly where a hole was placed on that 1909 reverse . It was filled in with a green slime, half way. I know it's, not an 09, although it is a wheat stalk.
Just FYI.