1909-S cent with V.D.B. is a variety

mr1931S

At least that's what Q. David Bowers has said.

rsei0120

very nice coin

ifthevamzarockin

Is it the "Whispering" variety?

mr1931S

@ifthevamzarockin said:
Is it the "Whispering" variety?

The coin I pictured (one of the finest known 1909-S V.D.B. cents) is not the whispering V.D.B. variety of 1909-S. But they certainly do exist. Anyone familiar with Bert Harsche's book on counterfeit and altered coins, specifically the 5th or 6th edition, knows this. I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking.

burfle23

Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

ifthevamzarockin

@mr1931S said:
I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here.

You proved to the forum that you can't tell a real S VDB from a counterfeit one even after everyone on the forum explains it to you for 3 months.

burfle23

OAKSTAR

@mr1931S said:

@ifthevamzarockin said:
Is it the "Whispering" variety?

I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking.

Okay, is or was this an 09-S-VDB? I've posted this coin many times before. I'm just hoping for another answer. 😂 🤣

burfle23

OAKSTAR

That doesn't help me. Both center lines on the B are slanted up.

ifthevamzarockin

@OAKSTAR said:
That doesn't help me. Both center lines on the B are slanted up.

I think he may have been showing you the placement of the dot after the D.

OAKSTAR

Doesn't this dot look close to the genuine one?

ifthevamzarockin

@OAKSTAR said:
Doesn't this dot look close to the genuine one?

Yes, the placement on yours looks correct.
That dot moves around a little bit on the VDB's and many times is closer to the D.

OAKSTAR

Got it, thanks. I'm just wondering if there are any other die marks that would point to a genuine S-VDB without seeing the S mint mark?

ifthevamzarockin

@OAKSTAR said:
I'm just wondering if there are any other die marks that would point to a genuine S-VDB without seeing the S mint mark?

I don't know of any other markers that would confirm it for sure.
If you look at the 4 mint mark positions for a S VDB it would appear that Die #1, 2 & 3 would still show part of the S on the edge of the hole. That would leave die #4 as the only possibility. If it was a Die #4 the hole is in the perfect place to remove the entire mint mark. So in other words you have about a 25% chance that it was an S.

burfle23

burfle23

burfle23

ifthevamzarockin

@burfle23 said:

I don't know if my eyes are playing tricks on me but his N almost looks like a cross of a shallow & deep N?
Maybe I'm just tired and need to go to bed.

OAKSTAR

Is this a shallow N? I can't tell.

OAKSTAR

I don't think it is but I can take better pictures tomorrow.

ifthevamzarockin

@OAKSTAR said:
Is this a shallow N? I can't tell.

That is the deep N

OAKSTAR

@burfle23 said:

@OAKSTAR said:
That doesn't help me. Both center lines on the B are slanted up.

Didn't hurt you either...

If it's not helping me, it's hurting me! 😂 🤣 😉

robec

@ifthevamzarockin said:

@OAKSTAR said:
Is this a shallow N? I can't tell.

That is the deep N

I think it’s the shallow N. All the shallow N’s have a webbing (for lack of a better description) at the V. Depending on the lighting it may look deeper than it is, but the deep N is a straight cut with none of the web look.

ifthevamzarockin

@robec said:
I think it’s the shallow N. All the shallow N’s have a webbing (for lack of a better description) at the V. Depending on the lighting it may look deeper than it is, but the deep N is a straight cut with none of the web look.

Maybe @OAKSTAR can get a better photo of it for us.

mr1931S

@burfle23 said:
Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

I don't know. You're the expert, why don't you tell us?

mr1931S

@burfle23 said:
Where is the Op @mr1931S in this discussion?

Thanks for the invitation for me to further participate in a thread I started.

OAKSTAR

@ifthevamzarockin said:

@robec said:
I think it’s the shallow N. All the shallow N’s have a webbing (for lack of a better description) at the V. Depending on the lighting it may look deeper than it is, but the deep N is a straight cut with none of the web look.

Maybe @OAKSTAR can get a better photo of it for us.

Stby........

mr1931S

@ifthevamzarockin said:

@mr1931S said:
I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here.

You proved to the forum that you can't tell a real S VDB from a counterfeit one even after everyone on the forum explains it to you for 3 months.

Have you bought yourself an SVDB yet? You were telling everyone on the forum about them but said you didn't own one, as I recall.

mr1931S

Here's my SVDB. Fake or real?

mr1931S

1909-S V.D.B., the variety of Lincoln cent that the collector does not need in their collection to be able to legitimately say he or she has a complete set. 1909-S V.D.B. is not a necessary coin for the collector to acquire for completion of the set of Lincoln cents, 1909-1940.

ifthevamzarockin

@mr1931S said:
Here's my SVDB. Fake or real?

If it was fake we wouldn't take another 3 months to explain it to you.

burfle23

@mr1931S said:

@burfle23 said:
Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

I don't know. You're the expert, why don't you tell us?

I don't recall stating that here like you did ...

You stated:

" I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking. ".

OAKSTAR

@ifthevamzarockin said:

@robec said:
I think it’s the shallow N. All the shallow N’s have a webbing (for lack of a better description) at the V. Depending on the lighting it may look deeper than it is, but the deep N is a straight cut with none of the web look.

Maybe @OAKSTAR can get a better photo of it for us.

Stby........

mr1931S

@ifthevamzarockin said:

@mr1931S said:
Here's my SVDB. Fake or real?

If it was fake we wouldn't take another 3 months to explain it to you.

Maybe "we" wouldn't but my money is on that you would.

ifthevamzarockin

@mr1931S said:
Maybe "we" wouldn't but my money is on that you would.

Nope

robec

..
Posted by mistake.

mr1931S

@burfle23 said:

@mr1931S said:

@burfle23 said:
Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

I don't know. You're the expert, why don't you tell us?

I don't recall stating that here like you did ...

You stated:

" I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking. ".

Are you acknowledging me as the 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. expert around here now? If so, please stop as being recognized as such I am not worthy of. Now, Harsche, there's your real expert. The only discrepency, if you will, in Harsche's 5th and 6th editions of Detecting Counterfeit and Altered Coins is that Harsche never saw what we now know as 1909-S V.D.B. from PCGS obverse die #1. Obviously, no expert can identify and list what they don't see. It so happens that a 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent from PCGS obverse die #1 is scarcer than an example from any of the other three obverse dies used for SVDB. The difference between the dies is in the position of the 's' mintmark.

burfle23

@mr1931S said:

@burfle23 said:

@mr1931S said:

@burfle23 said:
Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

I don't know. You're the expert, why don't you tell us?

I don't recall stating that here like you did ...

You stated:

" I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking. ".

Are you acknowledging me as the 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. expert around here now? If so, please stop as being recognized as such I am not worthy of. Now, Harsche, there's your real expert. The only discrepency, if you will, in Harsche's 5th and 6th editions of Detecting Counterfeit and Altered Coins is that Harsche never saw what we now know as 1909-S V.D.B. from PCGS obverse die #1. Obviously, no expert can identify and list what they don't see. It so happens that a 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent from PCGS obverse die #1 is scarcer than an example from any of the other three obverse dies used for SVDB. The difference between the dies is in the position of the 's' mintmark.

I seldom agree with anything I see you spout here; please get a life outside of here...

OAKSTAR

The light, focus and angle wasn't easy but here it is. You tell me.

Steven59

Did everybody get the new book by Harsche?..................

burfle23

Doesn't look sharp:

ifthevamzarockin

@OAKSTAR This one sure makes it look like a shallow N.

burfle23

Waiting for Harsche confirmation...

burfle23

@burfle23 said:
Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

@mr1931S I was honestly asking if this one meets your definition of the whispering VDB variety.

OAKSTAR

That's what I was thinking @ifthevamzarockin

telephoto1

@burfle23 said:

Is this possibly the whispering VDB? Large seller has it listed on the Bay:

09 S. N in UNITED not right.

ifthevamzarockin

@telephoto1 said:
09 S. N in UNITED not right.

I think he is asking if the VDB is right.

robec

@ifthevamzarockin said:

@telephoto1 said:
09 S. N in UNITED not right.

I think he is asking if the VDB is right.

If the VDB is right on this coin, the S mint mark is a fake. No authentic SVDB has a reverse with that N.

ifthevamzarockin

@robec said:
If the VDB is right on this coin, the S mint mark is a fake. No authentic SVDB has a reverse with that N.

Is the VDB right?

Steven59

Looks like deep N - yellow arrow points to (what looks like) "gunk" in the crotch ( )