Harsche didn't have much to say about details of the V.D.B. seen on the reverse of some 1909-S cents. He did note this, however, with regard to ways of creating an altered 1909-S V.D.B:
"3. Relief-etching a V.D.B. on the reverse of a regular 1909-S."
Relief etching a V.D.B. onto an authentic 1909-S cent was how my first 1909-S V.D.B. was created. I had bought an old school counterfeit that the V.D.B. was done skillfully enough to get by TPG authenticators. Try that now, in 2024, the counterfeiter will have to spend at least $100 (realistically, more like $200) for a suitable 1909-S cent to work on for placing a V.D.B. onto. That's a mighty expensive canvas to start with for the would-be counterfeiter, so the pressure would be on to "get it right" the first time because there's not going to be a second chance.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
What a spectacular illustration this thread is of the way that the internet, the greatest means of spreading information to everyone ever created, more often is used for, uh, less grand purposes. Like fighting about stupid things, or misinformation, or....
Not since the Hindenburg disaster have we seen such a large font size used for....um...attention getting headlines. Oh, and in my opinion, you need a new avatar, something numismatic related would be good.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@124Spider said:
What a spectacular illustration this thread is of the way that the internet, the greatest means of spreading information to everyone ever created,
I though the greatest way of spreading information was to just tell my ex wife a secret!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@mr1931S said:
Oh, and in my opinion, you need a new avatar
Opinions are like azz_ _ _ _ _ everyone has one and they all stink.
Clearly you are still needing some attention, if you want to start a poll (to get more attention) asking members here if I should change my avatar I may be inclined to change it if you get a majority vote.
The founder of PCGS comments on the 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent
David Hall:
A lot has been written about this famous penny and all I can add is two stories that illustrate how deeply ingrained this issue is in the collective consciousness of the coin collecting community. This may be the most well known U.S. coin. The first story is from a presentation I recently gave at a PCGS "members" coin show. I was discussing the "future of the coin market" and the audience was about 40 people. I started the presentation by asking the audience, "How many here have been buying/collecting coins for more than 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?" Then I asked if there was anyone who was an absolute newcomer to the coin market and two people raised their hands. Later in the presentation I was telling stories about how some coins were more popular than others. I asked, "What is the most well known U.S. coin?" and I pointed to one of the gentlemen who had earlier indicated he was a complete newcomer to coin collecting and he answered, "That penny, that 1909-S VDB penny."
The second story involves my son. A few years ago, as a 12 year old, my son was collecting Lincoln cents. We'd go to the Saturday bid board at the local coin shop and he'd go to the Long Beach coin show and buy a few coins. He was buying circulated coins and trying to get one of every date. He would always look at 1909-S VDBs, but he couldn't afford one. One day he made the following statement, "Dad, I'd eat worms for an S VDB." That about says it all, doesn't it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I got my hands full with delivering 1909-S penny information right now but stay tuned for a thread about 1931-S coins. It's so gratifying to me to see such a thirst for learning around here.
Question: Would you like to see lessons on 1931-S pennies or 1931-S nickels or 1931-S dimes?
I suppose I could do a triple feature thread and cover all 1931 dated denominations that bear the 's' mintmark. If I see enough interest for such, I'm thinking that a triple feature could happen.
Learning is fun and...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@Fraz said:
I apologize, I mocked your username. Start a thread if you want. Prepare your text better if you do. I have nothing against you doing it well.
Apology accepted. I'm actually a better sports writer than a numismatic writer but I continue to strive to be a better writer no matter what I'm writing about. Thanks for the constructive feedback.
.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
At least that's what Q. David Bowers has said.
I didn't read through the whole thread, but someone probably already confirmed that VDB coins are indeed design varieties. This is different from die varieties, which is what most folks are talking about when they say "variety".
PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:
@Fraz said:
I apologize, I mocked your username. Start a thread if you want. Prepare your text better if you do. I have nothing against you doing it well.
Apology accepted. I'm actually a better sports writer than a numismatic writer but I continue to strive to be a better writer no matter what I'm writing about. Thanks for the constructive feedback.
.
For some reason, A&C's "Who's on first" popped into my head.
The coin I pictured (one of the finest known 1909-S V.D.B. cents) is not the whispering V.D.B. variety of 1909-S. But they certainly do exist. Anyone familiar with Bert Harsche's book on counterfeit and altered coins, specifically the 5th or 6th edition, knows this. I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking.
Are any of the four 09-S VDB mintmark postions also known on the 09-S no-VDB in either "evil mimic" form or potentially any of the S-VDB obverses that were also paired with a No-VDB rev?
The coin I pictured (one of the finest known 1909-S V.D.B. cents) is not the whispering V.D.B. variety of 1909-S. But they certainly do exist. Anyone familiar with Bert Harsche's book on counterfeit and altered coins, specifically the 5th or 6th edition, knows this. I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation, the 1909-S Lincoln cent with V.D.B., so If you came here to learn about 1909-S or 1909-S V.D.B. ask your question here. No such thing as a dumb question in my way of thinking.
Are any of the four 09-S VDB mintmark postions also known on the 09-S no-VDB in either "evil mimic" form or potentially any of the S-VDB obverses that were also paired with a No-VDB rev?
If someone would post here the image of all four known SVDB 's' positions it would be helpful. I'm not sure about PCGS #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. being used for 1909-S without V.D.B. PCGS #2, PCGS #3, and PCGS #4 were also used to make 1909-S without V.D.B., however. The obverse die used for what we call PCGS #1 was taken out of service very quickly after only a few thousand coins struck. PCGS #1's 's' is highest left and closest to the date of the four. I once had this nifty image of all 4 's' positions of 1909-S V.D.B. available to post but it's on one of my many storage devices and I haven't had time to try and find it.
I saw a 1909-S V.D.B from PCGS #1 for sale in a local coin shop a few years ago. Very reasonably priced and in XF condition. I'm still kicking myself in the arse for not buying it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
If someone would post here the image of all four known SVDB 's' positions it would be helpful. I'm not sure about PCGS #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. being used for 1909-S without V.D.B. PCGS #2, PCGS #3, and PCGS #4 were also used to make 1909-S without V.D.B., however. The obverse die used for what we call PCGS #1 was taken out of service very quickly after only a few thousand coins struck. PCGS #1's 's' is highest left and closest to the date of the four. I once had this nifty image of all 4 's' positions of 1909-S V.D.B. available to post but it's on one of my many storage devices and I haven't had time to try and find it.
I saw a 1909-S V.D.B from PCGS #1 for sale in a local coin shop a few years ago. Very reasonably priced and in XF condition. I'm still kicking myself in the arse for not buying it.
Come on @mr1931S I thought you and the book of Harsche could tell us anything we needed to know about 1909 cents.
You said "I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation"
I found another image of what appears to be a slightly deeper shallow N.
This one is from a genuine S VDB and is a shallow N.
I don't know if it's die wear or photo lighting that makes it appear slightly deeper than most of the shallow N's
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I found another image of what appears to be a slightly deeper shallow N.
This one is from a genuine S VDB and is a shallow N.
I don't know if it's die wear or photo lighting that makes it appear slightly deeper than most of the shallow N's
It’s the angle of lighting. It’s definitely a shallow.
Thanks for the mintmark position images for 1909-S V.D.B., robec. This is excellent information. Anyone who dares to buy a 1909-S V.D.B. raw needs this information.
Mintmark position #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. was NOT USED for 1909-S without V.D.B. The other three were.
Again, Harsche never did see 1909-S V.D.B. from what we now know as PCGS #1 so obviously he couldn't list it. Position #1 was not seen by Harsche for 1909-S without V.D.B. either or we would see it shown on p. 15 of his book as the seventh obverse die used for 1909-S cents without V.D.B.
There are very, very few 1909-S V.D.B.'s from die #1. Perhaps a mint record exists that can shed more light on how many S V.D.B.'s were struck before obverse die #1 was taken out of service?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@robec said:
Darn, hoping for #1, but looks like #2.
Indeed, PCGS #2 is what you have there. Is your S V.D.B. mint state?
When I go to a show I always ask to do a closeup inspection with a loupe of every 1909-S V.D.B. I see for sale. I theorize that It's possible "medium high right 's' (MHR)" used on 1909-S without V.D.B. could have been used to make some 1909-S V.D.B.'s although the current wisdom says no, never happened. But it does so happen that MHR 's' is very close in position to "low far right 's' (LFR)", aka PCGS #4. And the 's' tilts to the right on both about the same amount.
The fifth die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. may not exist but I look for it anyway. Looking doesn't cost any money but make the discovery of a fifth obverse die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. that's not supposed to exist? Yowza!
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I am convinced that the SF mint in 1909 used 's' position to keep track of which die was in use on the factory floor at any given time when the coins, 1909-S AND 1909-S V.D.B., were being made. Can you all see the orderly progression of the 's' from higher to lower and from left to right as you view the images from #1 to #4? That did not happen by chance, sports fans. Those 's' placements and 's' tilts were done deliberately to track the various dies used while making the coins.
The same kind of order in 's' position for six different obverse dies can be seen in the Harsche obverse images for 1909-S without V.D.B. on page 15 of Detecting Altered Coins.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
I am convinced that the SF mint in 1909 used 's' position to keep track of which die was in use on the factory floor at any given time when the coins, 1909-S AND 1909-S V.D.B., were being made. Can you all see the orderly progression of the 's' from higher to lower and from left to right as you view the images from #1 to #4? That did not happen by chance, sports fans. Those 's' placements and 's' tilts were done deliberately to track the various dies used while making the coins.
The same kind of order in 's' position for six different obverse dies can be seen in the Harsche obverse images for 1909-S without V.D.B. on page 15 of Detecting Altered Coins.
This one is funny enough that I thought we better quote it before it gets edited or deleted.
@mr1931S You already showed us how well your crystal ball works for things that happened at the mint more than 100 years ago. First it was the mint director initialing special pieces to be secretly released into circulation, now this.
@mr1931S said:
I am convinced that the SF mint in 1909 used 's' position to keep track of which die was in use on the factory floor at any given time when the coins, 1909-S AND 1909-S V.D.B., were being made. Can you all see the orderly progression of the 's' from higher to lower and from left to right as you view the images from #1 to #4? That did not happen by chance, sports fans. Those 's' placements and 's' tilts were done deliberately to track the various dies used while making the coins.
The same kind of order in 's' position for six different obverse dies can be seen in the Harsche obverse images for 1909-S without V.D.B. on page 15 of Detecting Altered Coins.
The dies were created in Philadelphia and shipped to SF. I doubt the die sinkers in Philly said "Hey, lets make subtle differences in mint mark placements so the coiners in SF can keep track of the dies." No one cared about that in 1909, especially on a cent die.
@mr1931S said:
The fifth die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. may not exist but I look for it anyway. Looking doesn't cost any money but make the discovery of a fifth obverse die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. that's not supposed to exist? Yowza!
Here you go again trying to prove a 5th die that never existed, I thought we covered that last time.
You just can't help making up facts with your overactive imagination.
@mr1931S said:
Mintmark position #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. was NOT USED for 1909-S without V.D.B. The other three were.
It appears that you have that backwards, mintmark #1 was used and none of the other 3 were.
You really should take some time to research things before you post them as facts.
@mr1931S said:
I am convinced that the SF mint in 1909 used 's' position to keep track of which die was in use on the factory floor at any given time when the coins, 1909-S AND 1909-S V.D.B., were being made. Can you all see the orderly progression of the 's' from higher to lower and from left to right as you view the images from #1 to #4? That did not happen by chance, sports fans. Those 's' placements and 's' tilts were done deliberately to track the various dies used while making the coins.
They were not tracking the dies, there was no need to.
My research suggests that all S VDB's were struck the same day in about a 4 hour period.
All 4 die would have been running at the same time.
No others were struck after this initial striking.
@mr1931S said:
The fifth die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. may not exist but I look for it anyway. Looking doesn't cost any money but make the discovery of a fifth obverse die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. that's not supposed to exist? Yowza!
@mr1931S said:
I am convinced that the SF mint in 1909 used 's' position to keep track of which die was in use on the factory floor at any given time when the coins, 1909-S AND 1909-S V.D.B., were being made. Can you all see the orderly progression of the 's' from higher to lower and from left to right as you view the images from #1 to #4? That did not happen by chance, sports fans. Those 's' placements and 's' tilts were done deliberately to track the various dies used while making the coins.
The same kind of order in 's' position for six different obverse dies can be seen in the Harsche obverse images for 1909-S without V.D.B. on page 15 of Detecting Altered Coins.
The dies were created in Philadelphia and shipped to SF. I doubt the die sinkers in Philly said "Hey, lets make subtle differences in mint mark placements so the coiners in SF can keep track of the dies." No one cared about that in 1909, especially on a cent die.
New design. The SF mint would have had questions about the quality of the strikes on the new one cent pieces that they could get out of a set of dies. What better way to answer such questions than to make slight changes in the position of the mintmark on the dies as they are used to identify the dies used?
Look how different in appearance a coin made from die #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. is compared to #2, #3, and #4. Someone in authority at the SF mint in 1909 ordered die #1 taken out of service soon after production started because he didn't like what he saw with those first strikes of 1909-S V.D.B.?
People should try to keep an open mind about things rather than have the mindset that "If I didn't think it up, it can't be so."
"No one cared about that in 1909, especially on a cent die."
Just love the sweeping generalization, like seen directly above, to start my day. Can we expect there will be evidence forthcoming to support the validity of the " no one cared" statement?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Comments
So, what is this set of images telling anybody?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You tell me, you are the professed expert...
Harsche didn't have much to say about details of the V.D.B. seen on the reverse of some 1909-S cents. He did note this, however, with regard to ways of creating an altered 1909-S V.D.B:
"3. Relief-etching a V.D.B. on the reverse of a regular 1909-S."
Relief etching a V.D.B. onto an authentic 1909-S cent was how my first 1909-S V.D.B. was created. I had bought an old school counterfeit that the V.D.B. was done skillfully enough to get by TPG authenticators. Try that now, in 2024, the counterfeiter will have to spend at least $100 (realistically, more like $200) for a suitable 1909-S cent to work on for placing a V.D.B. onto. That's a mighty expensive canvas to start with for the would-be counterfeiter, so the pressure would be on to "get it right" the first time because there's not going to be a second chance.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Your images don't tell me anything because they are so disparate from one another. You can do better than this burfle.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Starved for attention
What a spectacular illustration this thread is of the way that the internet, the greatest means of spreading information to everyone ever created, more often is used for, uh, less grand purposes. Like fighting about stupid things, or misinformation, or....
Not since the Hindenburg disaster have we seen such a large font size used for....um...attention getting headlines. Oh, and in my opinion, you need a new avatar, something numismatic related would be good.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
This penny is so nice I'm reposting it here. PCGS MS67 RD? It sure is a beauty no matter what number it got...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I though the greatest way of spreading information was to just tell my ex wife a secret!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Opinions are like azz_ _ _ _ _ everyone has one and they all stink.
Clearly you are still needing some attention, if you want to start a poll (to get more attention) asking members here if I should change my avatar I may be inclined to change it if you get a majority vote.
The founder of PCGS comments on the 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent
David Hall:
A lot has been written about this famous penny and all I can add is two stories that illustrate how deeply ingrained this issue is in the collective consciousness of the coin collecting community. This may be the most well known U.S. coin. The first story is from a presentation I recently gave at a PCGS "members" coin show. I was discussing the "future of the coin market" and the audience was about 40 people. I started the presentation by asking the audience, "How many here have been buying/collecting coins for more than 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?" Then I asked if there was anyone who was an absolute newcomer to the coin market and two people raised their hands. Later in the presentation I was telling stories about how some coins were more popular than others. I asked, "What is the most well known U.S. coin?" and I pointed to one of the gentlemen who had earlier indicated he was a complete newcomer to coin collecting and he answered, "That penny, that 1909-S VDB penny."
The second story involves my son. A few years ago, as a 12 year old, my son was collecting Lincoln cents. We'd go to the Saturday bid board at the local coin shop and he'd go to the Long Beach coin show and buy a few coins. He was buying circulated coins and trying to get one of every date. He would always look at 1909-S VDBs, but he couldn't afford one. One day he made the following statement, "Dad, I'd eat worms for an S VDB." That about says it all, doesn't it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S You just keep reposting the same stuff.
One trick pony.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You should make that your new avatar.
Wrong end Vam.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
This is all you got? Disappointing.
I got an idea. Start a pole poll about a new avatar for one of your buds.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Wrong end.
Edit- Ha, someone beat me to it.
Why does this thread still exist?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I await lessons about the 1931 S.
I got my hands full with delivering 1909-S penny information right now but stay tuned for a thread about 1931-S coins. It's so gratifying to me to see such a thirst for learning around here.
Question: Would you like to see lessons on 1931-S pennies or 1931-S nickels or 1931-S dimes?
I suppose I could do a triple feature thread and cover all 1931 dated denominations that bear the 's' mintmark. If I see enough interest for such, I'm thinking that a triple feature could happen.
Learning is fun and...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I apologize, I mocked your username. Start a thread if you want. Prepare your text better if you do. I have nothing against you doing it well.
Apology accepted. I'm actually a better sports writer than a numismatic writer but I continue to strive to be a better writer no matter what I'm writing about. Thanks for the constructive feedback.
.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I didn't read through the whole thread, but someone probably already confirmed that VDB coins are indeed design varieties. This is different from die varieties, which is what most folks are talking about when they say "variety".
http://macrocoins.com
For some reason, A&C's "Who's on first" popped into my head.
Anyway, you're a good sport.
Are any of the four 09-S VDB mintmark postions also known on the 09-S no-VDB in either "evil mimic" form or potentially any of the S-VDB obverses that were also paired with a No-VDB rev?
If someone would post here the image of all four known SVDB 's' positions it would be helpful. I'm not sure about PCGS #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. being used for 1909-S without V.D.B. PCGS #2, PCGS #3, and PCGS #4 were also used to make 1909-S without V.D.B., however. The obverse die used for what we call PCGS #1 was taken out of service very quickly after only a few thousand coins struck. PCGS #1's 's' is highest left and closest to the date of the four. I once had this nifty image of all 4 's' positions of 1909-S V.D.B. available to post but it's on one of my many storage devices and I haven't had time to try and find it.
I saw a 1909-S V.D.B from PCGS #1 for sale in a local coin shop a few years ago. Very reasonably priced and in XF condition. I'm still kicking myself in the arse for not buying it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Come on @mr1931S I thought you and the book of Harsche could tell us anything we needed to know about 1909 cents.
You said "I can pretty much answer any questions you might have about 1909-S Lincoln cents or it's variation"
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I found another image of what appears to be a slightly deeper shallow N.
This one is from a genuine S VDB and is a shallow N.
I don't know if it's die wear or photo lighting that makes it appear slightly deeper than most of the shallow N's
It’s the angle of lighting. It’s definitely a shallow.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Cool, looks like the template I use!
Thanks for the mintmark position images for 1909-S V.D.B., robec. This is excellent information. Anyone who dares to buy a 1909-S V.D.B. raw needs this information.
Mintmark position #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. was NOT USED for 1909-S without V.D.B. The other three were.
A total of six different mintmark positions were used for 1909-S cents without V.D.B. These six mintmark positions are shown on p.15 of Detecting Altered Coins, U.S. Cents Thru Gold Coins Frequently Altered, With Revisions by the staff of Numismatic News and Coins Magazine, Iola, Wisconsin, Fifth Edition ©1973.
Of the six different mintmark positions for 1909-S cents shown on p.15, three were used for 1909-S V.D.B.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Again, Harsche never did see 1909-S V.D.B. from what we now know as PCGS #1 so obviously he couldn't list it. Position #1 was not seen by Harsche for 1909-S without V.D.B. either or we would see it shown on p. 15 of his book as the seventh obverse die used for 1909-S cents without V.D.B.
There are very, very few 1909-S V.D.B.'s from die #1. Perhaps a mint record exists that can shed more light on how many S V.D.B.'s were struck before obverse die #1 was taken out of service?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Darn, hoping for #1, but looks like #2.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Indeed, PCGS #2 is what you have there. Is your S V.D.B. mint state?
When I go to a show I always ask to do a closeup inspection with a loupe of every 1909-S V.D.B. I see for sale. I theorize that It's possible "medium high right 's' (MHR)" used on 1909-S without V.D.B. could have been used to make some 1909-S V.D.B.'s although the current wisdom says no, never happened. But it does so happen that MHR 's' is very close in position to "low far right 's' (LFR)", aka PCGS #4. And the 's' tilts to the right on both about the same amount.
The fifth die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. may not exist but I look for it anyway. Looking doesn't cost any money but make the discovery of a fifth obverse die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. that's not supposed to exist? Yowza!
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I am convinced that the SF mint in 1909 used 's' position to keep track of which die was in use on the factory floor at any given time when the coins, 1909-S AND 1909-S V.D.B., were being made. Can you all see the orderly progression of the 's' from higher to lower and from left to right as you view the images from #1 to #4? That did not happen by chance, sports fans. Those 's' placements and 's' tilts were done deliberately to track the various dies used while making the coins.
The same kind of order in 's' position for six different obverse dies can be seen in the Harsche obverse images for 1909-S without V.D.B. on page 15 of Detecting Altered Coins.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
This one is funny enough that I thought we better quote it before it gets edited or deleted.
@mr1931S You already showed us how well your crystal ball works for things that happened at the mint more than 100 years ago. First it was the mint director initialing special pieces to be secretly released into circulation, now this.
The dies were created in Philadelphia and shipped to SF. I doubt the die sinkers in Philly said "Hey, lets make subtle differences in mint mark placements so the coiners in SF can keep track of the dies." No one cared about that in 1909, especially on a cent die.
This coins manny consider Variety. Was from the production point?? The answer it is NO. At least 25 to 35% in time was those coins.
Me I will and I done before considered as an transition or error of Minting process management. It just use of the Dies for others strikes.
Your think?
(Ps: It is rare, yes. But variety? I doubt.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
Here you go again trying to prove a 5th die that never existed, I thought we covered that last time.
You just can't help making up facts with your overactive imagination.
Please don't bring your stabbernish into this...
It appears that you have that backwards, mintmark #1 was used and none of the other 3 were.
You really should take some time to research things before you post them as facts.
They were not tracking the dies, there was no need to.
My research suggests that all S VDB's were struck the same day in about a 4 hour period.
All 4 die would have been running at the same time.
No others were struck after this initial striking.
I'm out...
Yes but he has attention deficit disorder.... if he doesn't get enough attention it causes a disorder.
@ ifthevamzarockin
Yes I agree was only 4 dies was use, and appreciate you brink out this. Many do not know.
My question it is: If , in the time circumstaces, they use those Dies to struck: The coins will be varieties or Mint Error???
Me I go more to Mint Error.
PS:** to IkesT**> > Please don't bring your stabbernish into this...
No it is an statment from a point of view of the Mint production rules and sequences.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
New design. The SF mint would have had questions about the quality of the strikes on the new one cent pieces that they could get out of a set of dies. What better way to answer such questions than to make slight changes in the position of the mintmark on the dies as they are used to identify the dies used?
Look how different in appearance a coin made from die #1 for 1909-S V.D.B. is compared to #2, #3, and #4. Someone in authority at the SF mint in 1909 ordered die #1 taken out of service soon after production started because he didn't like what he saw with those first strikes of 1909-S V.D.B.?
People should try to keep an open mind about things rather than have the mindset that "If I didn't think it up, it can't be so."
"No one cared about that in 1909, especially on a cent die."
Just love the sweeping generalization, like seen directly above, to start my day. Can we expect there will be evidence forthcoming to support the validity of the " no one cared" statement?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein