Do you know any of the die numbers the mint used on the dies?
Hint: It's not die 1,2,3 & 4
What's the matter is that question too tough for you? Doesn't the book of Harsche have this info?
Not a dumb question but a rather silly one to ask here. I mean, who other than you cares about the mint's die numbers? Harsche had his own system for identifying the dies. He also provides images of the obverse of cents for all the different 1909-S V.D.B. and 1909-S's that he saw. He saw examples from three out of the four obverse dies used for 1909-S V.D.B. and they are pictured in his book. Same for 1909-S without V.D.B. There are six of those and images of all six 's' positions for 1909-S without V.D.B. are also shown in his book.
Frankly, why should anyone care about the die numbers the mint used? Did they make pictures to go along with their die numbers? The pictures in Harsche's publication and Harsche's system of distinguishing the die variations from one another should be good enough for use by the numismatic researcher of the 1909-S and the 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents.
So, did they care or not? Genuinely confused. I thought you were arguing that they cared enough to subtly change the minkmark positions. But now you're saying no one cared enough to look at the actual number on the die itself?
Why would they read the numbers clearly engraved on the die when they could just look at the very subtle difference in the position of the "S"?
In fact, I'm not sure why they EVER bothered to put serial numbers on the dies when they could have just subtly moved around the Mint marks or put a little tick mark around the rim. The need to get a loupe out to determine which die was being used would definitely make the workers focus more on their work.
When I worked at the Mint, my supervisor came over and asked me which die I was using. I reached for the loupe but then put it down and pointed at the press, "THAT one!"
My SVDB has a tick mark on the rim that points directly at the 's' which came from what we now know as PCGS #4 for 1909-S V.D.B. Could that tick mark have been made by a SF mint worker in 1909 to identify the die being used as what later (in 1973) came to be known as Harsche #3 for 1909-S V.D.B.?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You do know there's holes in your can . I'd help you empty it , but it's not my dept, so they say. Can you handle it ?
Look for the gaylord marked recycle,
(Logo with arrows) "Don't Litter" ...
I totally recommend that any Lincoln cent collector who wants to learn about die varieties of 1909-S cents obtain a copy of Detecting Altered Coins, 5th or 6th edition. I have both editions, three copies total, two 5th editions and the one 6th. One of my 5th edition copies is a working copy. Doesn't even have a cover. The 1909-S page with the images of the six different 'S' positions of 1909-S cents has my notes on it. There's ample space below each image for student notes.
I should transfer my notes to my 5th edition "collector" copy and then offer my working copy, the discovery copy if you will, for sale. I would be compelled to ask a pretty penny for it, however. $1000 to the astute Lincoln cent collector for yours truly's working copy, with original notes, of Detecting Altered Coins by Bert Harsche, 5th edition?
$1000 sounds about right in today's market.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Do you know any of the die numbers the mint used on the dies?
Hint: It's not die 1,2,3 & 4
What's the matter is that question too tough for you? Doesn't the book of Harsche have this info?
Not a dumb question but a rather silly one to ask here. I mean, who other than you cares about the mint's die numbers? Harsche had his own system for identifying the dies. He also provides images of the obverse of cents for all the different 1909-S V.D.B. and 1909-S's that he saw. He saw examples from three out of the four obverse dies used for 1909-S V.D.B. and they are pictured in his book. Same for 1909-S without V.D.B. There are six of those and images of all six 's' positions for 1909-S without V.D.B. are also shown in his book.
Frankly, why should anyone care about the die numbers the mint used? Did they make pictures to go along with their die numbers? The pictures in Harsche's publication and Harsche's system of distinguishing the die variations from one another should be good enough for use by the numismatic researcher of the 1909-S and the 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents.
So, did they care or not? Genuinely confused. I thought you were arguing that they cared enough to subtly change the minkmark positions. But now you're saying no one cared enough to look at the actual number on the die itself?
Why would they read the numbers clearly engraved on the die when they could just look at the very subtle difference in the position of the "S"?
In fact, I'm not sure why they EVER bothered to put serial numbers on the dies when they could have just subtly moved around the Mint marks or put a little tick mark around the rim. The need to get a loupe out to determine which die was being used would definitely make the workers focus more on their work.
When I worked at the Mint, my supervisor came over and asked me which die I was using. I reached for the loupe but then put it down and pointed at the press, "THAT one!"
My SVDB has a tick mark on the rim that points directly at the 's' which came from what we now know as PCGS #4 for 1909-S V.D.B. Could that tick mark have been made by a SF mint worker in 1909 to identify the die being used as what later (in 1973) came to be known as Harsche #3 for 1909-S V.D.B.?
@mr1931S said:
I totally recommend that any Lincoln cent collector who wants to learn about die varieties of 1909-S cents obtain a copy of Detecting Altered Coins, 5th or 6th edition. I have both editions, three copies total, two 5th editions and the one 6th. One of my 5th edition copies is a working copy. Doesn't even have a cover. The 1909-S page with the images of the six different 'S' positions of 1909-S cents has my notes on it. There's ample space below each image for student notes.
I should transfer my notes to my 5th edition "collector" copy and then offer my working copy, the discovery copy if you will, for sale. I would be compelled to ask a pretty penny for it, however. $1000 to the astute Lincoln cent collector for yours truly's working copy, with original notes, of Detecting Altered Coins by Bert Harsche, 5th edition?
$1000 sounds about right in today's market.
Quoted for eternal preservation, I try to do my part here.
" I would be compelled to ask a pretty penny for it, however. $1000 to the astute Lincoln cent collector for yours truly's working copy, with original notes, of Detecting Altered Coins by Bert Harsche, 5th edition?
$1000 sounds about right in today's market. "
Just in case anybody is interested -
You can save $989.05
On eBay:
Detecting Altered Coins, 5th ed, Bert Harsche (1973 paperback)
US $10.95
or BEST OFFER
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@mr1931S said:
Buy the ebay copy and save a little money but you are not going to get my ORIGINAL hand-written notes seen on pages 13 and 15 of my working copy.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@mr1931S said:
Buy the ebay copy and save a little money but you are not going to get my ORIGINAL hand-written notes seen on pages 13 and 15 of my working copy.
I'll pay double to NOT have your hand-written notes. Or are the hand-written notes the way the publisher determined which printing press the book came from?
@mr1931S said:
Buy the ebay copy and save a little money but you are not going to get my ORIGINAL hand-written notes seen on pages 13 and 15 of my working copy.
I'll pay double to NOT have your hand-written notes...
Well, that's what you should do then. The important thing is to get your hands on a copy of Detecting Altered Coins that you can call your own before it's too late and the publication simply becomes unavailable due to unprecedented demand.
I might try to snap up as many copies of Harsche's book as I can before it becomes common knowledge among coin collectors how important his work is showing to be. Cornering the market on the long-out-of-print book, Detecting Altered Coins, 5th and/or 6th edition, would be a lot of fun for me and could be extremely lucrative as well.
Indeed, the ravages of time and improper handling of Harsche's book by collectors have taken their toll.
Bert Harsche, numismatic pioneer.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Since you seem to be the worlds biggest Harsche fan maybe you could answer the question of how he spells his last name.
It seems clear you are not sure how to pronounce it and Bert doesn't know how to spell his last name.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Since you seem to be the worlds biggest Harsche fan maybe you could answer the question of how he spells his last name.
It seems clear you are not sure how to pronounce it and Bert doesn't know how to spell his last name.
Is it Harsche or Harshe?
It was pointed out earlier by a poster here (not you) of a discrepency in the spelling of Harsche's name, comparing one publication to another. One who actually READS will see errors like this made in publications from time-to-time.
Usually, it's a failure of the proofreader to catch the error before the publication is printed. As you might imagine, it is very expensive to print books, so rather than throw the books away that have the error, the error goes uncorrected. Your ad hominem attack on the good name of Bert Harsche speaks volumes about YOU. Very unbecoming of you. I have to say this before this thread is closed.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
I believe the proper pronunciation of mr. Harsche's last name is forming the "ch" part as in "chimachanga".
That is a very interesting coincidence, as I always thought your posts were written by a chimichanga...
IkesT, it saddens me to see you fall into the herd mentality that has overtaken so many on this board, not just in this thread, but other threads on the forum as well. Anyway, I want to thank you again for your brilliant overlay work to establish that the 's' position on my what later proved to be a counterfeit 1909-S V.D.B. was authentic, and from a genuine 1909-S cent from Harsche #6 obverse die for 1909-S cent without V.D.B. You may recall that Harsche #6 is the lowest and farthest right of all 's' positions seen on 1909-S cents. Obverse die #6-FLFR was NOT used to make any 1909-S V.D.B. cents.
Those who wish to pronounce Harsche as Har-shē are mispronouncing numismatic pioneer Bert Harsche's name. The "sch" part is acceptable to pronounce as "sh" as in "short" but the "e" at the end of mr. Harsche's name is a short sound as in "eh?" The "s" with the "ch" (as in chimichanga) sound is linguistically somewhat difficult to master but the student of Harsche should be able to execute the preferred sound with some practice.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
For those who didn't see the image of this stunning token in my other closed thread...
This is how we stay on topic?
The picture of the goldfish and the picture of the carp that were posted in this thread are in the spirit of staying on topic?
Look who has given you an "Agree" for your post. It's the same individual who posted the fish pictures. Pathetic. I wish PCGS would close this thread. Definitely not a good look for this forum.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
I believe the proper pronunciation of mr. Harsche's last name is forming the "ch" part as in "chimachanga".
That is a very interesting coincidence, as I always thought your posts were written by a chimichanga...
IkesT, it saddens me to see you fall into the herd mentality that has overtaken so many on this board, not just in this thread, but other threads on the forum as well. Anyway, I want to thank you again for your brilliant overlay work to establish that the 's' position on my what later proved to be a counterfeit 1909-S V.D.B. was authentic, and from a genuine 1909-S cent from Harsche #6 obverse die for 1909-S cent without V.D.B. You may recall that Harsche #6 is the lowest and farthest right of all 's' positions seen on 1909-S cents. Obverse die #6-FLFR was NOT used to make any 1909-S V.D.B. cents.
I apologize if I have caused any offense. I do not understand your posts, but I still love them, just like I love chimichangas. That's all I meant.
My Harsche (pronounced hăr shē) reference is "Detecting Altered Coins"
Correction: shē should be shĕ. I seldom make errors like this being such a student of the language that I am. Perfect proofing is something to strive for but the reality is perfect doesn't always happen.
I saw a boner spelling error you made in this very thread but didn't call you out on it. It's "POLL" not "POLE". I assumed you just made a typo but hey, thanks for the laugh.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Pages 11,12,13,14, and 15 of Detecting Altered Coins, 5th Edition, complete with images, are dedicated to 1909-S V.D.B. and 1909-S without V.D.B. And on page 5 of his publication, Harsche describes specifically, in some detail, ten ways how altered 1909-S V.D.B.'s are made.
I miss my slabbed counterfeit S V.D.B. but had to give it up to get a real one from the dealer who, unwittingly, had sold the counterfeit to me as genuine. I'm not the least bit sceered in the future of buying 1909-S V.D.B. cent raw thanks to the information found in Bert Harsche's book, Detecting Altered Coins, 5th or 6th Edition.
Spending $10 to $1000 for a copy of the Detecting Altered Coins reference book is one of the best investments the serious Lincoln cent collector can make, in my opinion.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Comments
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
My SVDB has a tick mark on the rim that points directly at the 's' which came from what we now know as PCGS #4 for 1909-S V.D.B. Could that tick mark have been made by a SF mint worker in 1909 to identify the die being used as what later (in 1973) came to be known as Harsche #3 for 1909-S V.D.B.?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You do know there's holes in your can . I'd help you empty it , but it's not my dept, so they say. Can you handle it ?
Look for the gaylord marked recycle,
(Logo with arrows) "Don't Litter" ...
I totally recommend that any Lincoln cent collector who wants to learn about die varieties of 1909-S cents obtain a copy of Detecting Altered Coins, 5th or 6th edition. I have both editions, three copies total, two 5th editions and the one 6th. One of my 5th edition copies is a working copy. Doesn't even have a cover. The 1909-S page with the images of the six different 'S' positions of 1909-S cents has my notes on it. There's ample space below each image for student notes.
I should transfer my notes to my 5th edition "collector" copy and then offer my working copy, the discovery copy if you will, for sale. I would be compelled to ask a pretty penny for it, however. $1000 to the astute Lincoln cent collector for yours truly's working copy, with original notes, of Detecting Altered Coins by Bert Harsche, 5th edition?
$1000 sounds about right in today's market.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
This thread clearly had some things going on in the beginning that I didn't understand. Now I do.
Hey, nice work IkesT.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I once had five of you cats on "Ignore."
What did we do?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Quoted for eternal preservation, I try to do my part here.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
" I would be compelled to ask a pretty penny for it, however. $1000 to the astute Lincoln cent collector for yours truly's working copy, with original notes, of Detecting Altered Coins by Bert Harsche, 5th edition?
$1000 sounds about right in today's market. "
Just in case anybody is interested -
You can save $989.05
On eBay:
Detecting Altered Coins, 5th ed, Bert Harsche (1973 paperback)
US $10.95
or BEST OFFER
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Buy the ebay copy and save a little money but you are not going to get my ORIGINAL hand-written notes seen on pages 13 and 15 of my working copy.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Don't be bashful. Tell us more.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I can't believe that I actually survived after reading this entire thread!
It gave me a headache
I don't really think I got anything else out of it.
Pete
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I'll pay double to NOT have your hand-written notes. Or are the hand-written notes the way the publisher determined which printing press the book came from?
Well, that's what you should do then. The important thing is to get your hands on a copy of Detecting Altered Coins that you can call your own before it's too late and the publication simply becomes unavailable due to unprecedented demand.
I might try to snap up as many copies of Harsche's book as I can before it becomes common knowledge among coin collectors how important his work is showing to be. Cornering the market on the long-out-of-print book, Detecting Altered Coins, 5th and/or 6th edition, would be a lot of fun for me and could be extremely lucrative as well.
Indeed, the ravages of time and improper handling of Harsche's book by collectors have taken their toll.
Bert Harsche, numismatic pioneer.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Bret “Hitman” Hart, Stampede Wrestling royalty.
I believe the proper pronunciation of mr. Harsche's last name is forming the "ch" part as in "chimachanga".
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Please try to stay on topic.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The topic fares poorly.
You have yet to answer a question I asked you previously. Do you have a degree in clinical psychology? Yes or No answer will suffice.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You haven't answered any of my previous questions, why should I answer yours?
Since you seem to be the worlds biggest Harsche fan maybe you could answer the question of how he spells his last name.
It seems clear you are not sure how to pronounce it and Bert doesn't know how to spell his last name.
Is it Harsche or Harshe?
It was pointed out earlier by a poster here (not you) of a discrepency in the spelling of Harsche's name, comparing one publication to another. One who actually READS will see errors like this made in publications from time-to-time.
Usually, it's a failure of the proofreader to catch the error before the publication is printed. As you might imagine, it is very expensive to print books, so rather than throw the books away that have the error, the error goes uncorrected. Your ad hominem attack on the good name of Bert Harsche speaks volumes about YOU. Very unbecoming of you. I have to say this before this thread is closed.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
For those who didn't see the image of this stunning token in my other closed thread...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
That is a very interesting coincidence, as I always thought your posts were written by a chimichanga...
Which is Casey at the Bat?
This is how we stay on topic?
Sure....that commemorative has a "Whispering VDB" on it
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
IkesT, it saddens me to see you fall into the herd mentality that has overtaken so many on this board, not just in this thread, but other threads on the forum as well. Anyway, I want to thank you again for your brilliant overlay work to establish that the 's' position on my what later proved to be a counterfeit 1909-S V.D.B. was authentic, and from a genuine 1909-S cent from Harsche #6 obverse die for 1909-S cent without V.D.B. You may recall that Harsche #6 is the lowest and farthest right of all 's' positions seen on 1909-S cents. Obverse die #6-FLFR was NOT used to make any 1909-S V.D.B. cents.
Those who wish to pronounce Harsche as Har-shē are mispronouncing numismatic pioneer Bert Harsche's name. The "sch" part is acceptable to pronounce as "sh" as in "short" but the "e" at the end of mr. Harsche's name is a short sound as in "eh?" The "s" with the "ch" (as in chimichanga) sound is linguistically somewhat difficult to master but the student of Harsche should be able to execute the preferred sound with some practice.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The picture of the goldfish and the picture of the carp that were posted in this thread are in the spirit of staying on topic?
Look who has given you an "Agree" for your post. It's the same individual who posted the fish pictures. Pathetic. I wish PCGS would close this thread. Definitely not a good look for this forum.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I apologize if I have caused any offense. I do not understand your posts, but I still love them, just like I love chimichangas. That's all I meant.
You seem confused as usual.
My Harsche (pronounced hăr shē) reference is "Detecting Altered Coins"
Correction: shē should be shĕ. I seldom make errors like this being such a student of the language that I am. Perfect proofing is something to strive for but the reality is perfect doesn't always happen.
I saw a boner spelling error you made in this very thread but didn't call you out on it. It's "POLL" not "POLE". I assumed you just made a typo but hey, thanks for the laugh.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I can’t find an autographed one.
Population-1/0. MS64RB.
22-Aug-2021 $4,920 Heritage Auctions 2021 August 22 Certified American Tokens & Medals Showcase Auction #60215.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
mr1874
How much carp could a Harsche chart if a Harsche could chart carp?
@mr1931S Why did you delete your cute little Einstein meme?
About this much
I love this place.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
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Facebook
Hey @IkesT can you tell me if this is a harsh carp?
Let me see...where can I find a copy of the 5th edition?
I can't believe it but this thread is........................
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I have one I'll let go of. My working copy with annotations. Only $1000 but to you just $900. Free shipping.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
How much for just page 15?
Pages 11,12,13,14, and 15 of Detecting Altered Coins, 5th Edition, complete with images, are dedicated to 1909-S V.D.B. and 1909-S without V.D.B. And on page 5 of his publication, Harsche describes specifically, in some detail, ten ways how altered 1909-S V.D.B.'s are made.
I miss my slabbed counterfeit S V.D.B. but had to give it up to get a real one from the dealer who, unwittingly, had sold the counterfeit to me as genuine. I'm not the least bit sceered in the future of buying 1909-S V.D.B. cent raw thanks to the information found in Bert Harsche's book, Detecting Altered Coins, 5th or 6th Edition.
Spending $10 to $1000
for a copy of the Detecting Altered Coins reference book is one of the best investments the serious Lincoln cent collector can make, in my opinion.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein