I like my coins with two professional opinions. CACG eliminates that completely. I think it would be brilliant if PCGS started their own sticker service for CACG coins, bringing back the two professional opinions, once the CAC sticker service shuts down.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
@asheland said:
I definitely want a slab or two by CACG, but still think PCGS or NGC with the sticker is the best combination. Two graders are always better than just one in my opinion. Their slab alone to me is no different really than a PCGS or NGC slab without a sticker.
Yes! I want an original CACG slab just in case it is a short run and becomes valuable down the road. But, PCGS and NGC slabbed coins with CAC stickers will always be my #1 personal preference. I am buying as many, as I can right now, because I am anticipating the eventual end of stickering and the subsequent increase in value and demand for stickered coins.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
You would think CAC would not like a photoshopped future holder and spank the seller. Then again some of those sellers might like a good spanking.
On another matter, a trifurcated market of leading cert. services might be a positive development. They may each settle into specific areas of recognized numismatic expertise. Less confusion for the marketplace is always better.
Agreed. CACG coins with PCGS gold beans would become all the rage.
Any TPG not considering this is making a poor business decision.
CACG is looking to eat a part of their lunch so why not eat part of their dinner?
CAC was a valued second opinion and lent a lot of weight the premium people were willing to pay.
I can’t imagine a bean would mean much on a coin originally graded by CACG.
Kind of like having a student grade his own paper.
If you really believe in your failed CAC coin, you're going to have to crack and submit raw.
Only way I know to eliminate the tie to the failed coin cert in their database.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
@MrEureka said:
Ironically, these could become good investments if the CACG Gen 1.0 holder doesn't last long.
Ehh. To me, this is analogous to the classic vs. modern coin debate.
First gen holders from the 1980s have value now because no one knew than what the industry would become. They were neither created nor saved in numbers anywhere near what is produced today. First gen circa 2023 holders will never have the same kind of value, given that they will be created and collected in huge numbers, just like modern coins.
@jmlanzaf said:
NGC and PCGS slab far more modern coins than classic coins with Eagles leading the way. But CACG offers the same service and this is a problem because...
Or are we supposed to be upset that RCTV is offering CACG coins this month instead of the PCGS and NGC coins they sold last month?
I think people are reacting that CACG is having a soft opening from a select group of individuals and it appears that RCTV was chosen as one of those select individuals. So a company that it appears, from what people have said in this thread, is known to take advantage of people was chosen to be one of the very first customers to CACG. RCTV has 4 different CACG offerings so I think people are just more disappointed that this is happening right out of the gate. If you hold CAC stickering and JA in extremely high opinion this could possibly make one re-evaluate their opinion.
Why? I strongly disagree that "RCTV ... is known to take advantage of people."
It is a telemarketing operation that has extremely high overhead and sells at prices to match. Its target market is not the people in this forum. No one is being taken advantage of, anyone more than people paying jacked up prices for milk at 7-11 are. Milk is available elsewhere for less, but some are willing to pay for the convenience of being able to buy 24/7/365 at an outlet with lower volumes and higher overhead. People buying from late night TV and not the same people haggling at a bourse at a show.
RCTV actually has a reputation for being extremely reputable, and Tomaska has been in the business forever. Why on earth would JA stand on ceremony and tell him to take his dirty money to our hosts or ATS, because his stickers have a reputation to uphold? Don't PCGS and NGC also have good reputations, despite making a ton of money grading product for the telemarketers?
Anyone considered reevaluating their opinion of CAC based on CACG grading moderns for telemarketers should probably reevaluate everything, from the existence of Santa Claus to the business ethics of EVERY TPG in the country. It's a business, nothing more, nothing less.
JA's opinion of coin quality is now in question because he started another business that grades modern coins and does business with bulk submitters who market on TV? Should people also reevaluate their opinion of anyone who ever bought a coin from anywhere, including but not limited to the US Mint, and immediately turned around and flipped it for a substantial profit? This happens? Shocking that anyone would allow themselves to be taken advantage of in this manner!
@JimTyler said:
I read this comment here but think it’s maybe the most important. CAC claim to fame was to double check PCGS/NGC and to weed out the low end coins for the given grade. Now with their new slab they have risen to the almighty grading service with them being the one and only. No longer a need to double check just believe us. This almost makes me like CAC beans.
I think that’s the downside of the grading service. I have no faith that a CAC green 65 won’t end up in a CACG 66 holder. I’m sure plenty of people will be cracking and submitting to see if they can get them to make a mistake.
>
>
My concern is a little different. CAC has always said that part of stickering a coin was that it also had outstanding eye appeal, or something along those lines.
So in the past, they could just deny a sticker to any particular coin, for any particular reason.
With CACG this is not an option. If it’s not a ‘details’ coin, it’s going to straight grade to something. Even if the grade is dropped a few points, a coin that’s unappealing will still remain so.
So it would seem that CACG will be a strictly technical grade, just like the other TPGs, ignoring any eye appeal.
If I’m wrong, please enlighten me.
HB
You're exactly right. This is not an eye appeal second opinion service. It's a grading service, no different than the others, except it comes complete with JA's reputation, pedigree, credibility and branding.
All the better that some people are going to mistakenly attach a CAC premium to their product. As long as that lasts, it will justify their charging a premium for their service.
@JimTyler said:
I read this comment here but think it’s maybe the most important. CAC claim to fame was to double check PCGS/NGC and to weed out the low end coins for the given grade. Now with their new slab they have risen to the almighty grading service with them being the one and only. No longer a need to double check just believe us. This almost makes me like CAC beans.
I think that’s the downside of the grading service. I have no faith that a CAC green 65 won’t end up in a CACG 66 holder. I’m sure plenty of people will be cracking and submitting to see if they can get them to make a mistake.
>
>
My concern is a little different. CAC has always said that part of stickering a coin was that it also had outstanding eye appeal, or something along those lines.
So in the past, they could just deny a sticker to any particular coin, for any particular reason.
With CACG this is not an option. If it’s not a ‘details’ coin, it’s going to straight grade to something. Even if the grade is dropped a few points, a coin that’s unappealing will still remain so.
So it would seem that CACG will be a strictly technical grade, just like the other TPGs, ignoring any eye appeal.
If I’m wrong, please enlighten me.
HB
Concur completely. The cache of the brand will inevitably be diluted unless they refuse to slab crappy examples.
They're not going to refuse to grade anything that is genuine and unaltered. Cache of the brand? They are cashing in now. The future will include no stickering, at which point any lack of cache attached to them will not be JA's problem.
@1madman said:
I’m making a guess here, but wouldn’t people who like/buy cac stickered coins also like cac graded coins? So your pcgs/NGC coins that didn’t sticker can now go to cac grading to still get their seal of approval.
They would be fooled in the fact of buying NGC/pcgs slabbed ms62 coins, and they all downgrade to cac au58 grades. If I was the submitter, I’d be pissed to a certain degree.
But I see your point in that setting a minimum cross grade as to what’s on the current slab is pointless too, because if that coin already failed to sticker at cac, it will not cross, and you’re just throwing money away.
Except it's not going to be a "seal of approval," regardless of what someone might mistakenly believe. It will be nothing more than a grade in a different slab, no different than PCGS vs. NGC today.
Some will prefer one over the other. Some won't care. But a CACG slab will never be a backdoor into a CAC sticker, no matter what anyone who might send coins for crossovers might think.
Agreed. CACG coins with PCGS gold beans would become all the rage.
Any TPG not considering this is making a poor business decision.
CACG is looking to eat a part of their lunch so why not eat part of their dinner?
CAC was a valued second opinion and lent a lot of weight the premium people were willing to pay.
I can’t imagine a bean would mean much on a coin originally graded by CACG.
Kind of like having a student grade his own paper.
Except CAC was started by a coin dealer who offered an opinion, a sticker, and a bid to buy the coin backed by years of industry experience, credibility, reputation and capital. All these years later, he is branching out and started a TPG, and signaling that he is going to wind down the market making/second opinion business.
Just how does an independent TPG make the transition to market making second opinion seller? Without the bid and the market making, the sticker won't mean anything. And just which expert numismatic eye at the private equity owner is going to be putting up the capital, offering the opinion, and making the market?
No one is going to be eating JA's dinner. Not in this lifetime. The brilliant minds behind NGC and PCGS have cashed out, and those companies are being run by Wall Street mercenaries today. The only contemporary left is JA, and now he's getting into the TPG space.
The other TPG's don't have anyone of his stature to offer credible second opinions on his slabs. Even he is starting to get out of that business. It is highly unlikely anyone will be able to replicate what he did, as its time has seemingly come and gone and the grading business is now in the hands of private equity, not the original founders with decades of numismatic experience and their own capital. Other than CACG.
@fathom said:
You would think CAC would not like a photoshopped future holder and spank the seller. Then again some of those sellers might like a good spanking.
On another matter, a trifurcated market of leading cert. services might be a positive development. They may each settle into specific areas of recognized numismatic expertise. Less confusion for the marketplace is always better.
For all we know, they provided it. Everyone is acting like RCTV is some illegitimate grey market seller. For all we know, someone connected with them is a CACG investor, not just an intermediary.
In any event, RCTV is a legit, bulk customer, not some fly by night on eBay. I doubt they would use any CACG images without permission. And, as I said, it's as likely as not that the images were supplied by CACG to facilitate the presale. After all, tepid demand will translate to tepid sales for all of them, including CACG.
I don’t care who they are / the $5795 price (CDN CPG is $3400) and their not even having it in inventory would make it a no go for just about anybody, certainly me. Plus their 6-8 wk ship wait - does this mean another 2 months before CACG slabs in marketplace? It’s like somebody starting a FB game and saying “oops the varsity is not here yet.”
Doesn't mean CACG didn't do the photoshopping. JA is just telling everyone to cool their jets and assuring them that no coins have been graded yet. He's not saying the image was unauthorized, the product should not have been offered for presale, etc. He's just saying RCTV gold eagles will not be the first CACG slabbed coins.
@Cougar1978 said:
I don’t care who they are / the $5795 price and their not even having it in inventory would make it a no go for just about anybody, certainly me. Plus their 6-8 wk ship wait - does this mean another 2 months before CACG slabs in marketplace? It’s like somebody starting a FB game and saying “oops the varsity is not here yet.”
Yeah. Given how expensive they are, for all we know they are testing the waters to see what the market will bear, and they haven't even been committed to yet. The thing is, if they are made to order and you don't pre-order, you can't get one if you want one.
It makes sense that they are not going to put them in inventory if the demand isn't there at a price that works for them. We have no idea how many "partners" they have in it. Based on the promised ship date and JA's post above, 2 months to market sounds about right.
@1madman said:
I’m making a guess here, but wouldn’t people who like/buy cac stickered coins also like cac graded coins? So your pcgs/NGC coins that didn’t sticker can now go to cac grading to still get their seal of approval.
It's not a seal of approval, it's a grade opinion. There's an important difference.
They would be fooled in the fact of buying NGC/pcgs slabbed ms62 coins, and they all downgrade to cac au58 grades. If I was the submitter, I’d be pissed to a certain degree.
I think CACG might struggle with their standards being too tight. This will appeal to some, but as a long time PCGS collector my standards and perceptions are calibrated to the PCGS standards. I will be very hesitant to grade coins at CACG and risk coming back a grade lower than I'd get at PCGS. The only time I'd cross any coins is if I was confident what it would cross at and the market shows that it would be financially advantageous to do so. As far as buying resale CACG slabs, I will likely look to buy CACG slabs a grade under what I'm looking for and hope to cross them to PCGS at a grade higher if it financially makes sense to do so. This assumes that CACG coins at the same grade will be selling for a premium compared to PCGS coins at the same grade.
Edited to add: There might be quite an opportunity here. A PCGS 1885-S Morgan MS63PL guide price is $900, but in MS64PL it is $5000. If CACG MS63PLs can be had under $2k, there would seem to be quite an opportunity if you can get one to cross up a point. Now if CACG MS63PLs are selling for $5k, then really no opportunity. An MS63PL PCGS-CAC Greysheet retail is $1230.
But I see your point in that setting a minimum cross grade as to what’s on the current slab is pointless too, because if that coin already failed to sticker at cac, it will not cross, and you’re just throwing money away.
Maybe. I just had an NGC Morgan with a CAC sticker that I had re-holdered. Sent it back to CAC and got denied a sticker. So there's always an element of chance that people will gamble on I suppose.
@keyman64 said:
I like my coins with two professional opinions. CACG eliminates that completely. I think it would be brilliant if PCGS started their own sticker service for CACG coins, bringing back the two professional opinions, once the CAC sticker service shuts down.
100%! And if PCGS would do that with the bonus of allowing PCGS-stickered NGC and CAC into the registry, that would be the ultimate.
The cross game is more like once you tee it off and actually send it in speculation is now out the door. So you may feel your submitted item favored to upgrade whatever but now that’s it’s for real it’s not over until it’s over. Best of luck.
@NJCoin - please listen to some of the many interviews JA has given in the past three months and read his comments on the CAC forum. Wild speculation serves no useful purpose and is unnecessary.
@Cougar1978 said:
The cross game is more like once you tee it off and actually send it in speculation is now out the door. So you may feel your submitted item favored to upgrade whatever but now that’s it’s for real it’s not over until it’s over. Best of luck.
Well that does beg the question and we'll soon find out... Did CAC-stickered coins get a premium because they were blessed by JA or because there were now two opinions of grade? I suspect there is a possibility that CACG coins may not garner a premium in the long run because CACG grading will naturally see the variation and mistakes that happen at the other TPGs.
Maybe. I just had an NGC Morgan with a CAC sticker that I had re-holdered. Sent it back to CAC and got denied a sticker. So there's always an element of chance that people will gamble on I suppose.
So this would be an interesting scenario if you sent in a group of cac green stickered coins to cac grading to min cross at the same grade as the current holders, and none of them crossed. Basically that’s what you’re describing would happen to your coin. This cheapens the whole stickering idea and that company’s reputation.
Pretty bad when they won’t resticker a previously stickered coin.
Nothing will be beat the PCGS/CAC combination ever!! It’s 2 opinions and the blessings of the premier finalizer JA. Only reason to cross is for a CACG plus.
@fathom said:
You would think CAC would not like a photoshopped future holder and spank the seller. Then again some of those sellers might like a good spanking.
On another matter, a trifurcated market of leading cert. services might be a positive development. They may each settle into specific areas of recognized numismatic expertise. Less confusion for the marketplace is always better.
Are you sure it wasn't CACG who did the photoshop? It's pretty common when you don't have the product in hand yet. The US Mint has nothing but photoshopped images in their catalog.
@Cougar1978 said:
I don’t care who they are / the $5795 price (CDN CPG is $3400) and their not even having it in inventory would make it a no go for just about anybody, certainly me. Plus their 6-8 wk ship wait - does this mean another 2 months before CACG slabs in marketplace? It’s like somebody starting a FB game and saying “oops the varsity is not here yet.”
People order Mint products a year in advance.
When an independent retailer sells and ships their product tells you nothing about what CACG's timeline.
Well their competition has a 2023-W Proof $50 Gold Eagle PCGS PR 70 DC FDOI on eBay at $3495 / free shipping. And it ships right away!
For the record, eBay is not their competition. Their competition is the other telemarketers. Are PR70 FDOIs currently available on any other TV presentation for $3500? Sounds low, given their typical markup, and the fact that the coin is sold out at the Mint and would be $2850 raw if it wasn't.
@Project Numismatics said: @NJCoin - please listen to some of the many interviews JA has given in the past three months and read his comments on the CAC forum. Wild speculation serves no useful purpose and is unnecessary.
Thanks for the heads-up. The message chain is certainly illuminating. I did not realize my speculation was "wild."
RCTV is not a CAC member. Fine. This does not mean that someone connected to them is not involved with CACG.
Either way, they have access to bulk submitted CACG coins. What's the difference how they are getting them? No TPG has the ability to tell any of its customers how or where to sell their inventory, or how to price it. That would actually violate antitrust law.
I'm not exactly sure what JA is going to say to RCTV on Monday. Sure, the statement in question is hyperbole, as is just about everything else said by telemarketers to move their product at their inflated prices.
But the statement is not technically untrue, as is the case with most of the TV statements. Nothing has hit the market yet. If these will be in collector hands in 6-8 weeks, they will indeed be among the first "group" of coins graded by CACG. No one said they'd be the very first coins. Clearly, they won't be.
The simple fact is that "First Delivery" means next to nothing, just like FDOI, First Strike, Early Release, First Release, etc. I'm calling BS on JA's pronouncement about transparency, grading at the expense of volume, special labels not being priced, etc.
If he meant it, he would cede that business to the competition and not offer special labels or bulk submissions. Clearly that is not the case, so calling RCTV to quibble about how they are marketing his "First Delivery" oh so special Proof Gold Eagles is really nothing more than lip service. Bulk submitters asked for a special label, and CACG is delivering in order to compete in the marketplace. What else is there to say?
The entire mintage sold out in less than 30 days, so they are all eligible for whatever special nomenclature a marketer or grading service wants to bestow upon them. He is playing the game just like everyone else, because that it where the money is with the bulk submitters today, so he really shouldn't be acting like he and his new business are transparent and above it. They are not, and it sure does not look like profits are not a consideration here, protestations in a message chain to the contrary.
@JimTyler said:
I read this comment here but think it’s maybe the most important. CAC claim to fame was to double check PCGS/NGC and to weed out the low end coins for the given grade. Now with their new slab they have risen to the almighty grading service with them being the one and only. No longer a need to double check just believe us. This almost makes me like CAC beans.
I'm thinking there are a LOT of nervous collectors of that cute little green sticker out there. A fool and his money are soon parted.
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify
Never owned a coin with a green sticker, never will. Furthermore, any coin I have ever purchased in a slab got cracked out soon after purchase, regardless of the grade. I collect coins for many reasons. Slabs and little green stickers has never been one of them.
I would rather join with an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by sheep.
@JimTyler said:
I read this comment here but think it’s maybe the most important. CAC claim to fame was to double check PCGS/NGC and to weed out the low end coins for the given grade. Now with their new slab they have risen to the almighty grading service with them being the one and only. No longer a need to double check just believe us. This almost makes me like CAC beans.
I'm thinking there are a LOT of nervous collectors of that cute little green sticker out there. A fool and his money are soon parted.
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify
Never owned a coin with a green sticker, never will. Furthermore, any coin I have ever purchased in a slab got cracked out soon after purchase, regardless of the grade. I collect coins for many reasons. Slabs and little green stickers has never been one of them.
That's fine. But why cast aspersions on those who do?
@JimTyler said:
I read this comment here but think it’s maybe the most important. CAC claim to fame was to double check PCGS/NGC and to weed out the low end coins for the given grade. Now with their new slab they have risen to the almighty grading service with them being the one and only. No longer a need to double check just believe us. This almost makes me like CAC beans.
I'm thinking there are a LOT of nervous collectors of that cute little green sticker out there. A fool and his money are soon parted.
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify
Never owned a coin with a green sticker, never will. Furthermore, any coin I have ever purchased in a slab got cracked out soon after purchase, regardless of the grade. I collect coins for many reasons. Slabs and little green stickers has never been one of them.
So you collect oranges while others collect apples. Many would agree that cracking a coin that has been authenticated may be considered "foolish" and make potential future owners "nervous" but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
Agreed. CACG coins with PCGS gold beans would become all the rage.
Any TPG not considering this is making a poor business decision.
CACG is looking to eat a part of their lunch so why not eat part of their dinner?
CAC was a valued second opinion and lent a lot of weight the premium people were willing to pay.
I can’t imagine a bean would mean much on a coin originally graded by CACG.
Kind of like having a student grade his own paper.
Except CAC was started by a coin dealer who offered an opinion, a sticker, and a bid to buy the coin backed by years of industry experience, credibility, reputation and capital. All these years later, he is branching out and started a TPG, and signaling that he is going to wind down the market making/second opinion business.
Just how does an independent TPG make the transition to market making second opinion seller? Without the bid and the market making, the sticker won't mean anything. And just which expert numismatic eye at the private equity owner is going to be putting up the capital, offering the opinion, and making the market?
No one is going to be eating JA's dinner. Not in this lifetime. The brilliant minds behind NGC and PCGS have cashed out, and those companies are being run by Wall Street mercenaries today. The only contemporary left is JA, and now he's getting into the TPG space.
The other TPG's don't have anyone of his stature to offer credible second opinions on his slabs. Even he is starting to get out of that business. It is highly unlikely anyone will be able to replicate what he did, as its time has seemingly come and gone and the grading business is now in the hands of private equity, not the original founders with decades of numismatic experience and their own capital. Other than CACG.
As far as I know Mark Salzberg and Rick Montgomery and top finalizers such as Jeff Howard are still at PCGS. Those numismatists are doing the yeoman's work, not Albanese. And they're not getting new marching orders from the hedge funds such as Steve Cohen and Blackstone that own over half of the principal to grade differently as far as I know. The question is what cac will be worth when fully capitalized and who will buy them out?
Agreed. CACG coins with PCGS gold beans would become all the rage.
Any TPG not considering this is making a poor business decision.
CACG is looking to eat a part of their lunch so why not eat part of their dinner?
CAC was a valued second opinion and lent a lot of weight the premium people were willing to pay.
I can’t imagine a bean would mean much on a coin originally graded by CACG.
Kind of like having a student grade his own paper.
Except CAC was started by a coin dealer who offered an opinion, a sticker, and a bid to buy the coin backed by years of industry experience, credibility, reputation and capital. All these years later, he is branching out and started a TPG, and signaling that he is going to wind down the market making/second opinion business.
Just how does an independent TPG make the transition to market making second opinion seller? Without the bid and the market making, the sticker won't mean anything. And just which expert numismatic eye at the private equity owner is going to be putting up the capital, offering the opinion, and making the market?
No one is going to be eating JA's dinner. Not in this lifetime. The brilliant minds behind NGC and PCGS have cashed out, and those companies are being run by Wall Street mercenaries today. The only contemporary left is JA, and now he's getting into the TPG space.
The other TPG's don't have anyone of his stature to offer credible second opinions on his slabs. Even he is starting to get out of that business. It is highly unlikely anyone will be able to replicate what he did, as its time has seemingly come and gone and the grading business is now in the hands of private equity, not the original founders with decades of numismatic experience and their own capital. Other than CACG.
As far as I know Mark Salzburg and Rick Montgomery and top finalizers such as Jeff Howard are still at PCGS. Those numismatists are doing the yeoman's work, not Albanese. And they're not getting new marching orders from the hedge funds such as Steve Cohen and Blackstone that own over half of the principal to grade differently as far as I know. The question is what cac will be worth when fully capitalized and who will buy them out?
A couple corrections:
It’s Mark Salzberg, not Salzburg.
He and Rick Montgomery are at NGC, not PCGS
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Don’t these CAC threads just go around and around slabbed or stickered version lol?
What are you getting for your CAC material from your table off the bourse vs non CAC? Are they paying the money? Able retail at the CAC CPG? Are you getting any walkup sellers offering CAC material - able to buy it right? My experience last few local shows (50 tables) - walkup CAC sellers - zero. Major Wholesaler who sets up (his stuff abt 5 pct over bid) CAC material - zero. So if CAC is going to slab mods are they going to add a CDN CPG for that material?
I'm not exactly sure what JA is going to say to RCTV on Monday. Sure, the statement in question is hyperbole, as is just about everything else said by telemarketers to move their product at their inflated prices.
But the statement is not technically untrue, as is the case with most of the TV statements. Nothing has hit the market yet. If these will be in collector hands in 6-8 weeks, they will indeed be among the first "group" of coins graded by CACG. No one said they'd be the very first coins. Clearly, they won't be.
[...]
IF IF IF I read the CACG thread correctly, they intend 'First Delivery' to be "similar to" PCGS 'First Strike'. (Hat tip to @MFeld for asking the question.) Except for the 'uncirculated/burnished' ASE, all the current RCTV offerings are outside the 30-day post-release window. So, I do not see how the designation applies.
Perhaps JA plans to clarify the definition of the designation with RCTV on Monday. It will be interesting to see if RCTV ad changes as a result of the contact.
Agreed. CACG coins with PCGS gold beans would become all the rage.
Any TPG not considering this is making a poor business decision.
CACG is looking to eat a part of their lunch so why not eat part of their dinner?
CAC was a valued second opinion and lent a lot of weight the premium people were willing to pay.
I can’t imagine a bean would mean much on a coin originally graded by CACG.
Kind of like having a student grade his own paper.
Except CAC was started by a coin dealer who offered an opinion, a sticker, and a bid to buy the coin backed by years of industry experience, credibility, reputation and capital. All these years later, he is branching out and started a TPG, and signaling that he is going to wind down the market making/second opinion business.
Just how does an independent TPG make the transition to market making second opinion seller? Without the bid and the market making, the sticker won't mean anything. And just which expert numismatic eye at the private equity owner is going to be putting up the capital, offering the opinion, and making the market?
No one is going to be eating JA's dinner. Not in this lifetime. The brilliant minds behind NGC and PCGS have cashed out, and those companies are being run by Wall Street mercenaries today. The only contemporary left is JA, and now he's getting into the TPG space.
The other TPG's don't have anyone of his stature to offer credible second opinions on his slabs. Even he is starting to get out of that business. It is highly unlikely anyone will be able to replicate what he did, as its time has seemingly come and gone and the grading business is now in the hands of private equity, not the original founders with decades of numismatic experience and their own capital. Other than CACG.
As far as I know Mark Salzburg and Rick Montgomery and top finalizers such as Jeff Howard are still at PCGS. Those numismatists are doing the yeoman's work, not Albanese. And they're not getting new marching orders from the hedge funds such as Steve Cohen and Blackstone that own over half of the principal to grade differently as far as I know. The question is what cac will be worth when fully capitalized and who will buy them out?
A couple corrections:
It’s Mark Salzberg, not Salzburg.
He and Rick Montgomery are at NGC, not PCGS
The assertion was that the other grading services "don't have anyone of his stature to offer credible second opinions". There are plenty of top numismatists in and out of the grading services, JA is just one of the top ones. I was thinking of the top ones at both top tier services.
It's a completely different model. What i look for from a TPG is different than what I look for from a grade validation service. As a TPG, it's only a matter of time until CAC graded coins will start showing variability / inconsistency in quality within grades. Then you'll have another JA step up and fill the need to validate how solid the coin is. If they are going the TPG route, i'd love to see their photography, registry and other perks you currently get from PCGS and NGC.
@Cougar1978 said:
Don’t these CAC threads just go around and around lol? Reminds me of a strip club hobbyist blog I occasionally look at.
What are you getting for your CAC material from your table off the bourse vs non CAC? Are they paying the money? Able retail at the CAC CPG? Are you getting any walkup sellers offering CAC material - able to buy it right? My experience last few local shows (50 tables) - walkup CAC sellers - zero. Major Wholesaler who sets up (his stuff abt 5 pct over bid) CAC material - zero. So if CAC is going to slab mods are they going to add a CDN CPG for that material lol?
I would say the reason you are getting zero walkup CAC sellers is because nobody would offer premium material up for wholesale or lowball offers. That CAC material already sold for a premium. Have you ever seen stacks and stacks of CAC for wholesale prices? I don't think that exists.
No don’t believe there’s stacks of it. It’s less than 2 pct of total PCGS & NGC graded material on eBay.
A sharp vest pocket trader semi wholesaler could do good with CAC material he walked around the bourse if his price in the right range. Say somewhere between bid and CPG. Beyond that he is blowing in the wind with me.
It might not be as good a margin many looking for but could spruce up dealer display a tad and perhaps that whale buyer take it. Or other walkup sellers seeing it offering theirs. Real Life can get tough and people have to blow out stuff get money.
Btw CPG for a $50 Gold 2023 W Proof DCAM Gold Eagle $2900 slabbed PR 69 and $3400 for a slabbed PR 70.
but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
Just a tad defensive eh?
That wasn't your original question, this was........., @dollarfan said:
» show previous quotes
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify....................., so I clarified. Guess I hit a nerve.
I would rather join with an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by sheep.
but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
Just a tad defensive eh?
That wasn't your original question, this was........., @dollarfan said:
» show previous quotes
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify....................., so I clarified. Guess I hit a nerve.
Agreed. CACG coins with PCGS gold beans would become all the rage.
Any TPG not considering this is making a poor business decision.
CACG is looking to eat a part of their lunch so why not eat part of their dinner?
CAC was a valued second opinion and lent a lot of weight the premium people were willing to pay.
I can’t imagine a bean would mean much on a coin originally graded by CACG.
Kind of like having a student grade his own paper.
Except CAC was started by a coin dealer who offered an opinion, a sticker, and a bid to buy the coin backed by years of industry experience, credibility, reputation and capital. All these years later, he is branching out and started a TPG, and signaling that he is going to wind down the market making/second opinion business.
Just how does an independent TPG make the transition to market making second opinion seller? Without the bid and the market making, the sticker won't mean anything. And just which expert numismatic eye at the private equity owner is going to be putting up the capital, offering the opinion, and making the market?
No one is going to be eating JA's dinner. Not in this lifetime. The brilliant minds behind NGC and PCGS have cashed out, and those companies are being run by Wall Street mercenaries today. The only contemporary left is JA, and now he's getting into the TPG space.
The other TPG's don't have anyone of his stature to offer credible second opinions on his slabs. Even he is starting to get out of that business. It is highly unlikely anyone will be able to replicate what he did, as its time has seemingly come and gone and the grading business is now in the hands of private equity, not the original founders with decades of numismatic experience and their own capital. Other than CACG.
As far as I know Mark Salzburg and Rick Montgomery and top finalizers such as Jeff Howard are still at PCGS. Those numismatists are doing the yeoman's work, not Albanese. And they're not getting new marching orders from the hedge funds such as Steve Cohen and Blackstone that own over half of the principal to grade differently as far as I know. The question is what cac will be worth when fully capitalized and who will buy them out?
A couple corrections:
It’s Mark Salzberg, not Salzburg.
He and Rick Montgomery are at NGC, not PCGS
The assertion was that the other grading services "don't have anyone of his stature to offer credible second opinions". There are plenty of top numismatists in and out of the grading services, JA is just one of the top ones. I was thinking of the top ones at both top tier services.
No, that was only part of the assertion. The other part was that the business today does not lend itself to someone starting a coin business to first offering those opinions and then putting cash behind them by making markets in them.
My point was that JA WAS the guy, he wasn't hired by private equity to start CAC, and the next iteration of what he started is CACG. It would not make a lot of sense for the Wall Street guys to engage in the reverse commute by hiring Salzberg, Montgomery, Howard, etc. to offer opinions on other people's slabs that would form the basis of a new company backed by private equity, not their own fortune, to make markets in those opinions. And, as shown by the fact that CACG is a separate enterprise and not part of CAC, you really cannot do both and retain credibility as an unbiased TPG.
@JimTyler said:
I read this comment here but think it’s maybe the most important. CAC claim to fame was to double check PCGS/NGC and to weed out the low end coins for the given grade. Now with their new slab they have risen to the almighty grading service with them being the one and only. No longer a need to double check just believe us. This almost makes me like CAC beans.
I'm thinking there are a LOT of nervous collectors of that cute little green sticker out there. A fool and his money are soon parted.
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify
Never owned a coin with a green sticker, never will. Furthermore, any coin I have ever purchased in a slab got cracked out soon after purchase, regardless of the grade. I collect coins for many reasons. Slabs and little green stickers has never been one of them.
You may have digressed but you surely didn't clarify your original statement
@TwoKopeiki said:
It's a completely different model. What i look for from a TPG is different than what I look for from a grade validation service. As a TPG, it's only a matter of time until CAC graded coins will start showing variability / inconsistency in quality within grades. Then you'll have another JA step up and fill the need to validate how solid the coin is. If they are going the TPG route, i'd love to see their photography, registry and other perks you currently get from PCGS and NGC.
That's fine. All you need is another JA, and they are far and few between, with the desire and capital to fund the enterprise.
It takes a lot of money to fund the market making required to give the stickers meaning and value. That will inevitably come from Wall Street, at which point it would not be a JA clone, and would likely never gain the traction or market acceptance of CAC. If this was not the case, where have they been all along, and why would anyone wait for JA to start a grading service before invading the CAC second opinion market making space?
@TwoKopeiki said:
It's a completely different model. What i look for from a TPG is different than what I look for from a grade validation service. As a TPG, it's only a matter of time until CAC graded coins will start showing variability / inconsistency in quality within grades. Then you'll have another JA step up and fill the need to validate how solid the coin is. If they are going the TPG route, i'd love to see their photography, registry and other perks you currently get from PCGS and NGC.
That's fine. All you need is another JA, and they are far and few between, with the desire and capital to fund the enterprise.
It takes a lot of money to fund the market making required to give the stickers meaning and value. That will inevitably come from Wall Street, at which point it would not be a JA clone, and would likely never gain the traction or market acceptance of CAC. If this was not the case, where have they been all along, and why would anyone wait for JA to start a grading service before invading the CAC second opinion market making space?
but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
Just a tad defensive eh?
That wasn't your original question, this was........., @dollarfan said:
» show previous quotes
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify....................., so I clarified. Guess I hit a nerve.
Why would current CAC collectors be nervous? If anything, if the grading service were to somehow take a nosedive, I think the previously stickered pcgs coins would probably soar to the stratosphere. Coins like this are not getting uglier anytime soon and they will continue to be in heavy demand.
@JimTyler said:
I like how they put the green bean on their holder as if it’s been through two independent evaluations
Yup. It's called branding.
It does not mean two independent evaluations to me, but does indicate the slabs come from the same fine folks behind those lovely stickers. The alternative would be having these just be a random new flavor of slab, and they'd have the same struggles achieving market acceptance as any of the other new kids trying to break into the space since the late 1980s, other than among those of us in the weeds here.
As I have said before, the big money today is grading moderns for the bulk submitters, not sitting around waiting for a crossover, or the stray classic that has never seen the inside of a grading room. This ties these guys to the sticker guys. A picture of a logo on a slab insert is clearly not an after the fact sticker. The fact that the lay person might confuse it for a bean is probably at least part of the point, and is what it likely to make these guys far more successful out of the gate than anyone who has ever come before.
but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
Just a tad defensive eh?
That wasn't your original question, this was........., @dollarfan said:
» show previous quotes
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify....................., so I clarified. Guess I hit a nerve.
Why would current CAC collectors be nervous? If anything, if the grading service were to somehow take a nosedive, I think the previously stickered pcgs coins would probably soar to the stratosphere. Coins like this are not getting uglier anytime soon and they will continue to be in heavy demand.
Wow Dan, that coin is going thru the stratosphere to the exosphere!! That is a dream coin
Comments
I like my coins with two professional opinions. CACG eliminates that completely. I think it would be brilliant if PCGS started their own sticker service for CACG coins, bringing back the two professional opinions, once the CAC sticker service shuts down.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Looks like a crazy Butte boy.
Yes! I want an original CACG slab just in case it is a short run and becomes valuable down the road. But, PCGS and NGC slabbed coins with CAC stickers will always be my #1 personal preference. I am buying as many, as I can right now, because I am anticipating the eventual end of stickering and the subsequent increase in value and demand for stickered coins.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
You would think CAC would not like a photoshopped future holder and spank the seller. Then again some of those sellers might like a good spanking.
On another matter, a trifurcated market of leading cert. services might be a positive development. They may each settle into specific areas of recognized numismatic expertise. Less confusion for the marketplace is always better.
Any TPG not considering this is making a poor business decision.
CACG is looking to eat a part of their lunch so why not eat part of their dinner?
CAC was a valued second opinion and lent a lot of weight the premium people were willing to pay.
I can’t imagine a bean would mean much on a coin originally graded by CACG.
Kind of like having a student grade his own paper.
If you really believe in your failed CAC coin, you're going to have to crack and submit raw.
Only way I know to eliminate the tie to the failed coin cert in their database.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I never really understood the phrase, maybe there is a better one that's more precise? "Downhill slide to mediocrity"......https://www.powerthesaurus.org/jumping_the_shark/synonyms
Ehh. To me, this is analogous to the classic vs. modern coin debate.
First gen holders from the 1980s have value now because no one knew than what the industry would become. They were neither created nor saved in numbers anywhere near what is produced today. First gen circa 2023 holders will never have the same kind of value, given that they will be created and collected in huge numbers, just like modern coins.
Why? I strongly disagree that "RCTV ... is known to take advantage of people."
It is a telemarketing operation that has extremely high overhead and sells at prices to match. Its target market is not the people in this forum. No one is being taken advantage of, anyone more than people paying jacked up prices for milk at 7-11 are. Milk is available elsewhere for less, but some are willing to pay for the convenience of being able to buy 24/7/365 at an outlet with lower volumes and higher overhead. People buying from late night TV and not the same people haggling at a bourse at a show.
RCTV actually has a reputation for being extremely reputable, and Tomaska has been in the business forever. Why on earth would JA stand on ceremony and tell him to take his dirty money to our hosts or ATS, because his stickers have a reputation to uphold? Don't PCGS and NGC also have good reputations, despite making a ton of money grading product for the telemarketers?
Anyone considered reevaluating their opinion of CAC based on CACG grading moderns for telemarketers should probably reevaluate everything, from the existence of Santa Claus to the business ethics of EVERY TPG in the country. It's a business, nothing more, nothing less.
JA's opinion of coin quality is now in question because he started another business that grades modern coins and does business with bulk submitters who market on TV? Should people also reevaluate their opinion of anyone who ever bought a coin from anywhere, including but not limited to the US Mint, and immediately turned around and flipped it for a substantial profit? This happens? Shocking that anyone would allow themselves to be taken advantage of in this manner!
You're exactly right. This is not an eye appeal second opinion service. It's a grading service, no different than the others, except it comes complete with JA's reputation, pedigree, credibility and branding.
All the better that some people are going to mistakenly attach a CAC premium to their product. As long as that lasts, it will justify their charging a premium for their service.
They're not going to refuse to grade anything that is genuine and unaltered. Cache of the brand? They are cashing in now. The future will include no stickering, at which point any lack of cache attached to them will not be JA's problem.
Except it's not going to be a "seal of approval," regardless of what someone might mistakenly believe. It will be nothing more than a grade in a different slab, no different than PCGS vs. NGC today.
Some will prefer one over the other. Some won't care. But a CACG slab will never be a backdoor into a CAC sticker, no matter what anyone who might send coins for crossovers might think.
Except CAC was started by a coin dealer who offered an opinion, a sticker, and a bid to buy the coin backed by years of industry experience, credibility, reputation and capital. All these years later, he is branching out and started a TPG, and signaling that he is going to wind down the market making/second opinion business.
Just how does an independent TPG make the transition to market making second opinion seller? Without the bid and the market making, the sticker won't mean anything. And just which expert numismatic eye at the private equity owner is going to be putting up the capital, offering the opinion, and making the market?
No one is going to be eating JA's dinner. Not in this lifetime. The brilliant minds behind NGC and PCGS have cashed out, and those companies are being run by Wall Street mercenaries today. The only contemporary left is JA, and now he's getting into the TPG space.
The other TPG's don't have anyone of his stature to offer credible second opinions on his slabs. Even he is starting to get out of that business. It is highly unlikely anyone will be able to replicate what he did, as its time has seemingly come and gone and the grading business is now in the hands of private equity, not the original founders with decades of numismatic experience and their own capital. Other than CACG.
For all we know, they provided it. Everyone is acting like RCTV is some illegitimate grey market seller. For all we know, someone connected with them is a CACG investor, not just an intermediary.
In any event, RCTV is a legit, bulk customer, not some fly by night on eBay. I doubt they would use any CACG images without permission. And, as I said, it's as likely as not that the images were supplied by CACG to facilitate the presale. After all, tepid demand will translate to tepid sales for all of them, including CACG.
@NJCoin - we don’t need to speculate as JA has already provided a comment:
https://www.caccoin.com/forums/discussion/940/get-your-modern-cacg-first-slab-plastic-here-for/p1
I don’t care who they are / the $5795 price (CDN CPG is $3400) and their not even having it in inventory would make it a no go for just about anybody, certainly me. Plus their 6-8 wk ship wait - does this mean another 2 months before CACG slabs in marketplace? It’s like somebody starting a FB game and saying “oops the varsity is not here yet.”
Doesn't mean CACG didn't do the photoshopping. JA is just telling everyone to cool their jets and assuring them that no coins have been graded yet. He's not saying the image was unauthorized, the product should not have been offered for presale, etc. He's just saying RCTV gold eagles will not be the first CACG slabbed coins.
Yeah. Given how expensive they are, for all we know they are testing the waters to see what the market will bear, and they haven't even been committed to yet. The thing is, if they are made to order and you don't pre-order, you can't get one if you want one.
It makes sense that they are not going to put them in inventory if the demand isn't there at a price that works for them. We have no idea how many "partners" they have in it. Based on the promised ship date and JA's post above, 2 months to market sounds about right.
Agree
Well their competition has a 2023-W Proof $50 Gold Eagle PCGS PR 70 DC FDOI on eBay at $3495 / free shipping. And it ships right away!
It's not a seal of approval, it's a grade opinion. There's an important difference.
I think CACG might struggle with their standards being too tight. This will appeal to some, but as a long time PCGS collector my standards and perceptions are calibrated to the PCGS standards. I will be very hesitant to grade coins at CACG and risk coming back a grade lower than I'd get at PCGS. The only time I'd cross any coins is if I was confident what it would cross at and the market shows that it would be financially advantageous to do so. As far as buying resale CACG slabs, I will likely look to buy CACG slabs a grade under what I'm looking for and hope to cross them to PCGS at a grade higher if it financially makes sense to do so. This assumes that CACG coins at the same grade will be selling for a premium compared to PCGS coins at the same grade.
Edited to add: There might be quite an opportunity here. A PCGS 1885-S Morgan MS63PL guide price is $900, but in MS64PL it is $5000. If CACG MS63PLs can be had under $2k, there would seem to be quite an opportunity if you can get one to cross up a point. Now if CACG MS63PLs are selling for $5k, then really no opportunity. An MS63PL PCGS-CAC Greysheet retail is $1230.
Maybe. I just had an NGC Morgan with a CAC sticker that I had re-holdered. Sent it back to CAC and got denied a sticker. So there's always an element of chance that people will gamble on I suppose.
100%! And if PCGS would do that with the bonus of allowing PCGS-stickered NGC and CAC into the registry, that would be the ultimate.
The cross game is more like once you tee it off and actually send it in speculation is now out the door. So you may feel your submitted item favored to upgrade whatever but now that’s it’s for real it’s not over until it’s over. Best of luck.
If playing the holder game be prepared to pay.
@NJCoin - please listen to some of the many interviews JA has given in the past three months and read his comments on the CAC forum. Wild speculation serves no useful purpose and is unnecessary.
https://www.caccoin.com/forums/discussion/940/get-your-modern-cacg-first-slab-plastic-here-for#latest
Well that does beg the question and we'll soon find out... Did CAC-stickered coins get a premium because they were blessed by JA or because there were now two opinions of grade? I suspect there is a possibility that CACG coins may not garner a premium in the long run because CACG grading will naturally see the variation and mistakes that happen at the other TPGs.
So this would be an interesting scenario if you sent in a group of cac green stickered coins to cac grading to min cross at the same grade as the current holders, and none of them crossed. Basically that’s what you’re describing would happen to your coin. This cheapens the whole stickering idea and that company’s reputation.
Pretty bad when they won’t resticker a previously stickered coin.
Nothing will be beat the PCGS/CAC combination ever!! It’s 2 opinions and the blessings of the premier finalizer JA. Only reason to cross is for a CACG plus.
Are you sure it wasn't CACG who did the photoshop? It's pretty common when you don't have the product in hand yet. The US Mint has nothing but photoshopped images in their catalog.
People order Mint products a year in advance.
When an independent retailer sells and ships their product tells you nothing about what CACG's timeline.
For the record, eBay is not their competition. Their competition is the other telemarketers. Are PR70 FDOIs currently available on any other TV presentation for $3500? Sounds low, given their typical markup, and the fact that the coin is sold out at the Mint and would be $2850 raw if it wasn't.
Thanks for the heads-up. The message chain is certainly illuminating. I did not realize my speculation was "wild."
RCTV is not a CAC member. Fine. This does not mean that someone connected to them is not involved with CACG.
Either way, they have access to bulk submitted CACG coins. What's the difference how they are getting them? No TPG has the ability to tell any of its customers how or where to sell their inventory, or how to price it. That would actually violate antitrust law.
I'm not exactly sure what JA is going to say to RCTV on Monday. Sure, the statement in question is hyperbole, as is just about everything else said by telemarketers to move their product at their inflated prices.
But the statement is not technically untrue, as is the case with most of the TV statements. Nothing has hit the market yet. If these will be in collector hands in 6-8 weeks, they will indeed be among the first "group" of coins graded by CACG. No one said they'd be the very first coins. Clearly, they won't be.
The simple fact is that "First Delivery" means next to nothing, just like FDOI, First Strike, Early Release, First Release, etc. I'm calling BS on JA's pronouncement about transparency, grading at the expense of volume, special labels not being priced, etc.
If he meant it, he would cede that business to the competition and not offer special labels or bulk submissions. Clearly that is not the case, so calling RCTV to quibble about how they are marketing his "First Delivery" oh so special Proof Gold Eagles is really nothing more than lip service. Bulk submitters asked for a special label, and CACG is delivering in order to compete in the marketplace. What else is there to say?
The entire mintage sold out in less than 30 days, so they are all eligible for whatever special nomenclature a marketer or grading service wants to bestow upon them. He is playing the game just like everyone else, because that it where the money is with the bulk submitters today, so he really shouldn't be acting like he and his new business are transparent and above it. They are not, and it sure does not look like profits are not a consideration here, protestations in a message chain to the contrary.
Never owned a coin with a green sticker, never will. Furthermore, any coin I have ever purchased in a slab got cracked out soon after purchase, regardless of the grade. I collect coins for many reasons. Slabs and little green stickers has never been one of them.
I would rather join with an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by sheep.
That's fine. But why cast aspersions on those who do?
So you collect oranges while others collect apples. Many would agree that cracking a coin that has been authenticated may be considered "foolish" and make potential future owners "nervous" but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
As far as I know Mark Salzberg and Rick Montgomery and top finalizers such as Jeff Howard are still at PCGS. Those numismatists are doing the yeoman's work, not Albanese. And they're not getting new marching orders from the hedge funds such as Steve Cohen and Blackstone that own over half of the principal to grade differently as far as I know. The question is what cac will be worth when fully capitalized and who will buy them out?
A couple corrections:
It’s Mark Salzberg, not Salzburg.
He and Rick Montgomery are at NGC, not PCGS
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Don’t these CAC threads just go around and around slabbed or stickered version lol?
What are you getting for your CAC material from your table off the bourse vs non CAC? Are they paying the money? Able retail at the CAC CPG? Are you getting any walkup sellers offering CAC material - able to buy it right? My experience last few local shows (50 tables) - walkup CAC sellers - zero. Major Wholesaler who sets up (his stuff abt 5 pct over bid) CAC material - zero. So if CAC is going to slab mods are they going to add a CDN CPG for that material?
IF IF IF I read the CACG thread correctly, they intend 'First Delivery' to be "similar to" PCGS 'First Strike'. (Hat tip to @MFeld for asking the question.) Except for the 'uncirculated/burnished' ASE, all the current RCTV offerings are outside the 30-day post-release window. So, I do not see how the designation applies.
Perhaps JA plans to clarify the definition of the designation with RCTV on Monday. It will be interesting to see if RCTV ad changes as a result of the contact.
Edited.
The assertion was that the other grading services "don't have anyone of his stature to offer credible second opinions". There are plenty of top numismatists in and out of the grading services, JA is just one of the top ones. I was thinking of the top ones at both top tier services.
It's a completely different model. What i look for from a TPG is different than what I look for from a grade validation service. As a TPG, it's only a matter of time until CAC graded coins will start showing variability / inconsistency in quality within grades. Then you'll have another JA step up and fill the need to validate how solid the coin is. If they are going the TPG route, i'd love to see their photography, registry and other perks you currently get from PCGS and NGC.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I like how they put the green bean on their holder as if it’s been through two independent evaluations
I would say the reason you are getting zero walkup CAC sellers is because nobody would offer premium material up for wholesale or lowball offers. That CAC material already sold for a premium. Have you ever seen stacks and stacks of CAC for wholesale prices? I don't think that exists.
No don’t believe there’s stacks of it. It’s less than 2 pct of total PCGS & NGC graded material on eBay.
A sharp vest pocket trader semi wholesaler could do good with CAC material he walked around the bourse if his price in the right range. Say somewhere between bid and CPG. Beyond that he is blowing in the wind with me.
It might not be as good a margin many looking for but could spruce up dealer display a tad and perhaps that whale buyer take it. Or other walkup sellers seeing it offering theirs. Real Life can get tough and people have to blow out stuff get money.
Btw CPG for a $50 Gold 2023 W Proof DCAM Gold Eagle $2900 slabbed PR 69 and $3400 for a slabbed PR 70.
but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
Just a tad defensive eh?
That wasn't your original question, this was.........,
@dollarfan said:
» show previous quotes
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify....................., so I clarified. Guess I hit a nerve.
I would rather join with an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by sheep.
Could you please clarify more.
No, that was only part of the assertion. The other part was that the business today does not lend itself to someone starting a coin business to first offering those opinions and then putting cash behind them by making markets in them.
My point was that JA WAS the guy, he wasn't hired by private equity to start CAC, and the next iteration of what he started is CACG. It would not make a lot of sense for the Wall Street guys to engage in the reverse commute by hiring Salzberg, Montgomery, Howard, etc. to offer opinions on other people's slabs that would form the basis of a new company backed by private equity, not their own fortune, to make markets in those opinions. And, as shown by the fact that CACG is a separate enterprise and not part of CAC, you really cannot do both and retain credibility as an unbiased TPG.
You may have digressed but you surely didn't clarify your original statement
That's fine. All you need is another JA, and they are far and few between, with the desire and capital to fund the enterprise.
It takes a lot of money to fund the market making required to give the stickers meaning and value. That will inevitably come from Wall Street, at which point it would not be a JA clone, and would likely never gain the traction or market acceptance of CAC. If this was not the case, where have they been all along, and why would anyone wait for JA to start a grading service before invading the CAC second opinion market making space?
You missed my point entirely.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Why would current CAC collectors be nervous? If anything, if the grading service were to somehow take a nosedive, I think the previously stickered pcgs coins would probably soar to the stratosphere. Coins like this are not getting uglier anytime soon and they will continue to be in heavy demand.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Yup. It's called branding.
It does not mean two independent evaluations to me, but does indicate the slabs come from the same fine folks behind those lovely stickers. The alternative would be having these just be a random new flavor of slab, and they'd have the same struggles achieving market acceptance as any of the other new kids trying to break into the space since the late 1980s, other than among those of us in the weeds here.
As I have said before, the big money today is grading moderns for the bulk submitters, not sitting around waiting for a crossover, or the stray classic that has never seen the inside of a grading room. This ties these guys to the sticker guys. A picture of a logo on a slab insert is clearly not an after the fact sticker. The fact that the lay person might confuse it for a bean is probably at least part of the point, and is what it likely to make these guys far more successful out of the gate than anyone who has ever come before.
Wow Dan, that coin is going thru the stratosphere to the exosphere!! That is a dream coin