@Zoins said:
The Lee-Morelan-Hansen 1795 Dollar is an interesting situation for CACG:
Formerly NGC MS65 CAC
Currently PCGS MS64+ CAC
Will this be a CACG MS65 or CACG MS65+?
That is an interesting one, I imagine if it sent in for cross in the current pcgs holder, I doubt it would upgrade to 65 but it would have a great shot to cross at 64+. If it were cracked and sent raw, it would have a better shot to get into a 65 holder. This is a good example of the fact that grading is always subjective, and like JA said in one of those interviews, there is already too many grades when you factor in + grades. Another respected forum member had an early $20 lib in ngc 58 cac that downgraded to pcgs 55, and green stickered again.
You could say the coin should have had a gold sticker in the first place when it was NGC holdered, but as we've seen gold stickers is not always awarded to coins under graded by just 1 grade. From what Ive seen its normally is at least 1.5 grade under graded, in addition to extremely strong eye appeal, and likely an older holder These are some the the scenarios that everyone is curious how CACG will handle upon opening, but at the end of the day its understood by the community that grading by humans can only be so accurate, and I have a great deal of confidence in the finalizers who will be employed in Virginia Beach. Bill Shamhart, John Butler, and Ron Drzewucki are all top tier graders and we will see what kind of accuracy will ensue as a result of their extensive experience.
The reality is that I bought and sold 600 DE's over the past 10 years. I managed to own 1 plus grade that was stickered. After viewing the video I now have a better understanding as to why a CACG + coin more than likely will sell for a higher price than a PCGS + w/Cac sticker. It is good to know. Unless I missed, quite a bit more , I still am incline to believe that I would pay more for a TPG graded coin w/ a CAC sticker then a CAGG graded coin alone.
@Zoins said:
The Lee-Morelan-Hansen 1795 Dollar is an interesting situation for CACG:
Formerly NGC MS65 CAC
Currently PCGS MS64+ CAC
Will this be a CACG MS65 or CACG MS65+?
That is an interesting one, I imagine if it sent in for cross in the current pcgs holder, I doubt it would upgrade to 65 but it would have a great shot to cross at 64+. If it were cracked and sent raw, it would have a better shot to get into a 65 holder.
This is a well known coin with CAC history so it will be very interesting to see what happens. Wonder if we'll get a chance to find out. Seems like it should be at least a CACG MS65 for consistency.
@DeplorableDan said:
This is a good example of the fact that grading is always subjective, and like JA said in one of those interviews, there is already too many grades when you factor in + grades.
Plus grades in addition to CAC add more grades, to 100 distinct grades actually as documented here::
@DeplorableDan said:
Another respected forum member had an early $20 lib in ngc 58 cac that downgraded to pcgs 55, and green stickered again.
It goes the other way too. A green bean coin upgrades a full grade and green beans again.
@DeplorableDan said:
You could say the coin should have had a gold sticker in the first place when it was NGC holdered, but as we've seen gold stickers is not always awarded to coins under graded by just 1 grade. From what Ive seen its normally is at least 1.5 grade under graded, in addition to extremely strong eye appeal, and likely an older holder These are some the the scenarios that everyone is curious how CACG will handle upon opening, but at the end of the day its understood by the community that grading by humans can only be so accurate, and I have a great deal of confidence in the finalizers who will be employed in Virginia Beach. Bill Shamhart, John Butler, and Ron Drzewucki are all top tier graders and we will see what kind of accuracy will ensue as a result of their extensive experience.
If stickering (CACS) continues out of NJ, it will be interesting to compare the NJ and VB grades.
The reality is that I bought and sold 600 DE's over the past 10 years. I managed to own 1 plus grade that was stickered. After viewing the video I now have a better understanding as to why a CACG + coin more than likely will sell for a higher price than a PCGS + w/Cac sticker. It is good to know. Unless I missed, quite a bit more , I still am incline to believe that I would pay more for a TPG graded coin w/ a CAC sticker then a CAGG graded coin alone.
Does the legacy designation have any value to you? For example there could be a CACG 64+ Legacy. You're not going to know if the previous holder was PCGS, or NGC, however we would know that the coin was previously stickered as either a 64 or 64+ from one of those TPGS. CACG has then marked it as an A coin by awarding a + when it crossed.
I would much rather have that coin than the identical coin in the p/n holder as a 64/64+ with the sticker. I know the coin was already stickered at that number grade, so we have more than 1 opinion, and I now know that CAC believes its an A coin.
@PerryHall said:
Many collectors participate in the PCGS registry program. What incentive do they have to buy coins in the CACG slabs?
Definitely "A" (PLUS) coin collectors. CACG confirms the plus designation.
CACG is attractive to collectors who believe they have a "+" coin as well as those who believe their coin should be upgraded and like CACG's one stop service. A CACG graded coin is automatically considered a stickered coin.
Go back and read my comment that you just responded to. You missed my point. If someone is putting together PCGS Registry sets, they usually won't be looking for coins in CACG slabs since those coins wouldn't be allowed in their PCGS registry sets.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@Zoins said:
The Lee-Morelan-Hansen 1795 Dollar is an interesting situation for CACG:
Formerly NGC MS65 CAC
Currently PCGS MS64+ CAC
Will this be a CACG MS65 or CACG MS65+?
I would argue it doesn’t matter. It’s one of the finest known and its value will be relative to the other finest known examples regardless of which holder it’s in.
@RLSnapper said:
I believe the CACG Legacy coins will mostly be NGC coins. A PCGS CAC stickered coin will ultimately be the most highly prized coin of all. The market already prices PCGS coins higher than NGC. The CAC factory ended on June 5...CAC stickered coins after June 5 are not guaranteed to cross into CACG holders...mmmmm..why is that? JA has his reasons and I believe ...JA hints at this in his interview..that he wants to ultimately get out of the coin business entirely and the stickers had the JA cache'. The new CACG will have hundreds of thousands of coins going through its grading process with worker bees churning out 69 or 70 on moderns making the big $$$ just like our host and NGC. JA can step away any time and pocket big $$$ when he leaves CACG....he wouldn't have been able to do that with the stickers. That's the real reason behind CACG in my opinion. It's all about the Benjamins.
I checked with John Albanese in order to confirm and as I had thought, you were incorrect in stating that “CAC stickered coins after June 5 are not guaranteed to cross into CACG holders…”. In my opinion, your speculation is also incorrect.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld I stand corrected.....any coin stickered after June 5 will not receive a legacy designation on the CACG holder upon crossing. The only rationale for seeking a CAC sticker is to complete a PCGS CAC Registry Set or go after the elusive Gold CAC unless one believes a PCGS CAC coin will have more value than CACG coin. Time will tell and the market will decide which coins reign supreme.
@RLSnapper said: @MFeld I stand corrected.....any coin stickered after June 5 will not receive a legacy designation on the CACG holder upon crossing. The only rationale for seeking a CAC sticker is to complete a PCGS CAC Registry Set or go after the elusive Gold CAC unless one believes a PCGS CAC coin will have more value than CACG coin. Time will tell and the market will decide which coins reign supreme.
I’ll have to disagree again. There are other rationales that submitters have for seeking CAC stickers, a number of which have been posted here over the years.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jkrk said:
I'm slow but catching on.
a legacy holder means the coin has been previously graded by another 3rd party, and has previously received the CAC sticker?
Am I correct?
No one believes how little I know and this should prove it
You are correct - about the sticker. I don’t know whether no one believes how little you know.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@PerryHall said:
Many collectors participate in the PCGS registry program. What incentive do they have to buy coins in the CACG slabs?
Definitely "A" (PLUS) coin collectors. CACG confirms the plus designation.
CACG is attractive to collectors who believe they have a "+" coin as well as those who believe their coin should be upgraded and like CACG's one stop service. A CACG graded coin is automatically considered a stickered coin.
Go back and read my comment that you just responded to. You missed my point. If someone is putting together PCGS Registry sets, they usually won't be looking for coins in CACG slabs since those coins wouldn't be allowed in their PCGS registry sets.
I understand what you are saying. For me, I rather know I truly have a "+" coin and while participating in any Registry is fun, it's also secondary.
Think about this: how many of you have sent coins to cac stickering and got 100% of the coins to sticker every single time? Figure that those coins that didn’t sticker will drop a grade in a cacg holder. Are you ok having that coin you paid full market value for just drop a grade? Did your collection just have value added to it because it’s in a lower grade plastic holder?
Your post is making some assumptions, what if I didn't pay full market value when I bought the coin that failed to sticker? And how many times have you read a post here where someone was very happy to lose a grade on a crossover because they feel the new plastic has a greater market value than the old higher graded plastic (real or perceived). That scenario has been posted here many times in the past. Now I'm not saying that will happen right away, but it would be foolish to assume that it could not be the case in the future.
@jkrk said:
I'm slow but catching on.
a legacy holder means the coin has been previously graded by another 3rd party, and has previously received the CAC sticker?
Am I correct?
No one believes how little I know and this should prove it
You are correct - about the sticker. I don’t know whether no one believes how little you know.😉
It would be very cool if the CACG holder also had the PCGS or NGC number for the legacy holder. Then you reply could participate in PCGS registry sets as long as PCGS doesn’t deactivate the old cert.
@Zoins said:
The Lee-Morelan-Hansen 1795 Dollar is an interesting situation for CACG:
Formerly NGC MS65 CAC
Currently PCGS MS64+ CAC
Will this be a CACG MS65 or CACG MS65+?
I would argue it doesn’t matter. It’s one of the finest known and its value will be relative to the other finest known examples regardless of which holder it’s in.
It may not matter for this particular coin, but in general it may matter if PCGS is considered tighter on grading than CAC.
@jkrk said:
I'm slow but catching on.
a legacy holder means the coin has been previously graded by another 3rd party, and has previously received the CAC sticker?
Am I correct?
No one believes how little I know and this should prove it
You are correct - about the sticker. I don’t know whether no one believes how little you know.😉
It would be very cool if the CACG holder also had the PCGS or NGC number for the legacy holder. Then you reply could participate in PCGS registry sets as long as PCGS doesn’t deactivate the old cert.
It could be cool to encapsulate the PCGS or NGC insert inside the CACG slab. This way, you have higher confidence the number is legit and won't be cancelled.
@jkrk said:
I'm slow but catching on.
a legacy holder means the coin has been previously graded by another 3rd party, and has previously received the CAC sticker?
Am I correct?
No one believes how little I know and this should prove it
You are correct - about the sticker. I don’t know whether no one believes how little you know.😉
It would be very cool if the CACG holder also had the PCGS or NGC number for the legacy holder. Then you reply could participate in PCGS registry sets as long as PCGS doesn’t deactivate the old cert.
It could be cool to encapsulate the PCGS or NGC insert inside the CACG slab. This way, you have higher confidence the number is legit and won't be cancelled.
@jkrk said:
I'm slow but catching on.
a legacy holder means the coin has been previously graded by another 3rd party, and has previously received the CAC sticker?
Am I correct?
No one believes how little I know and this should prove it
You are correct - about the sticker. I don’t know whether no one believes how little you know.😉
It would be very cool if the CACG holder also had the PCGS or NGC number for the legacy holder. Then you reply could participate in PCGS registry sets as long as PCGS doesn’t deactivate the old cert.
It could be cool to encapsulate the PCGS or NGC insert inside the CACG slab. This way, you have higher confidence the number is legit and won't be cancelled.
Yea, never gonna happen.
Probably has about the same likelihood to happen as putting the PCGS/NGC cert number on the insert.
Like I said....one will go on the assumption that any Legacy CACG coin once resided in an NGC holder unless there is a PCGS TruView of the coin that matches.
@RLSnapper said:
Like I said....one will go on the assumption that any Legacy CACG coin once resided in an NGC holder unless there is a PCGS TruView of the coin that matches.
I agree , gonna be alot of photos taken and saved by collectors doing crossovers for legacy
No coins was sold yet, but appear on CAC slab? How?
No proof strike till now. Some one from WP who is manager for gold production told me Proof is on the table but not yet strike.
What it is first delivery? To who? To CAC , Walmart or where.
This TV it is a scam. They show a CAC slab with PF70 and announce DCAM. During first delivery the coin become proof DCAM?
5.8K one coin? May I can have a brake? I wait to receive my roll of 20 with almost 15K but for moment the Mint do not send nothing out. (if you do not believe the Mint statistic will confirm)
Do someone here has better output?
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN
It would be very cool if the CACG holder also had the PCGS or NGC number for the legacy holder. Then you reply could participate in PCGS registry sets as long as PCGS doesn’t deactivate the old cert.
If one doesn't turn in their PCGS label, how will PCGS know their coin is now in an CACG holder?
It would be very cool if the CACG holder also had the PCGS or NGC number for the legacy holder. Then you reply could participate in PCGS registry sets as long as PCGS doesn’t deactivate the old cert.
If one doesn't turn in their PCGS label, how will PCGS know their coin is now in an CACG holder?
JA has said CACG will be automatically sending the labels back into the other TPGs. Originally they suggested they would return them to collectors, but on the forum we recommended CACG automatically do that to keep pops accurate
@RLSnapper said:
Like I said....one will go on the assumption that any Legacy CACG coin once resided in an NGC holder unless there is a PCGS TruView of the coin that matches.
You do realize that not every PCGS graded coin has a TV, right?? There seem to be a lot of PCGS koolaid drinkers that are very nervous and scared in this thread.
@PerryHall said:
Many collectors participate in the PCGS registry program. What incentive do they have to buy coins in the CACG slabs?
Definitely "A" (PLUS) coin collectors. CACG confirms the plus designation.
CACG is attractive to collectors who believe they have a "+" coin as well as those who believe their coin should be upgraded and like CACG's one stop service. A CACG graded coin is automatically considered a stickered coin.
Go back and read my comment that you just responded to. You missed my point. If someone is putting together PCGS Registry sets, they usually won't be looking for coins in CACG slabs since those coins wouldn't be allowed in their PCGS registry sets.
I will certainly be looking at CACG coins to cross to PCGS for my registry set. The price will have to make sense in order to do that of course.
@RLSnapper said: @MFeld I stand corrected.....any coin stickered after June 5 will not receive a legacy designation on the CACG holder upon crossing. The only rationale for seeking a CAC sticker is to complete a PCGS CAC Registry Set or go after the elusive Gold CAC unless one believes a PCGS CAC coin will have more value than CACG coin. Time will tell and the market will decide which coins reign supreme.
I will keep trying to get stickers for my PCGS coins. Last month I submitted one which, according to greysheet retail, added $1500 value to the coin.
CAC has said member collectors. will get 20 passes per year and will not be charged for coins that fail to sticker. Does anyone know if that the 20 no charge fail coins have to be on one submission or say if I send 20 coins and 5 fail do I carry over 15 no charge for fails to future submissions?
No coins was sold yet, but appear on CAC slab? How?
No proof strike till now. Some one from WP who is manager for gold production told me Proof is on the table but not yet strike.
What it is first delivery? To who? To CAC , Walmart or where.
This TV it is a scam. They show a CAC slab with PF70 and announce DCAM. During first delivery the coin become proof DCAM?
5.8K one coin? May I can have a brake? I wait to receive my roll of 20 with almost 15K but for moment the Mint do not send nothing out. (if you do not believe the Mint statistic will confirm)
Do someone here has better output?
Silviosi - I understand your angst.
Is that presale thing even still alive?
I never understood why that seller asking $5800 for a $3420 (CPG for PR70 DC) coin! Certainly not a deal for me lol. If they sell them at bid $2700 to him that’s double bubble plus for him isn’t it? While they go around and around on the holder / L game here in a PCGS forum that situation on that coin the seller does not even have in stock (presale) unbelievable. Perhaps (I would think) over there they have nerfed him by now / kicked forever. I would suggest read further on thread see where it is now. As far as when CACG matl out uask them (CAC). That’s not my hot potato pickup. Regards
@GRANDAM said:
CAC has said member collectors. will get 20 passes per year and will not be charged for coins that fail to sticker. Does anyone know if that the 20 no charge fail coins have to be on one submission or say if I send 20 coins and 5 fail do I carry over 15 no charge for fails to future submissions?
JA addressed this question on the CAC forum, you get 20 failures which could come on one submission or one each over twenty submissions.
I know a guy who failed on 20 coins (convo last month) his first submission to them I believe. So I guess now the freebies over. At least he showed up to bat.
@GRANDAM said:
CAC has said member collectors. will get 20 passes per year and will not be charged for coins that fail to sticker. Does anyone know if that the 20 no charge fail coins have to be on one submission or say if I send 20 coins and 5 fail do I carry over 15 no charge for fails to future submissions?
JA addressed this question on the CAC forum, you get 20 failures which could come on one submission or one over twenty submissions.
THANK-YOU for that info,,,,,, I am working on a submission now,,,,,, that helps.
@jkrk said:
I'm slow but catching on.
a legacy holder means the coin has been previously graded by another 3rd party, and has previously received the CAC sticker?
Am I correct?
No one believes how little I know and this should prove it
You are correct - about the sticker. I don’t know whether no one believes how little you Know
Finally, a discussion I know something about. I am solely qualified> @MFeld said:
@jkrk said:
I'm slow but catching on.
a legacy holder means the coin has been previously graded by another 3rd party, and has previously received the CAC sticker?
Am I correct?
No one believes how little I know and this should prove it
You are correct - about the sticker. I don’t know whether no one believes how little you know.😉
@Cougar1978 said:
When people off bourse ask me what I have in something I say “Its confidential with the buyer.”
So if submitter I would want that courtesy and nothing revealed anywhere my coin did not sticker.
I have the foolproof system. When I buy a stickered coin, I'm sure the coin passed. When I buy an unstickered coin, I'm sure the coin failed. I need not know anymore.
@RLSnapper said:
Like I said....one will go on the assumption that any Legacy CACG coin once resided in an NGC holder unless there is a PCGS TruView of the coin that matches.
You do realize that not every PCGS graded coin has a TV, right?? There seem to be a lot of PCGS koolaid drinkers that are very nervous and scared in this thread.
Agreed. Although you'd kind of expect it on this forum.
I don't know why anyone would care if the Legacy CACG was formerly NGC or PCGS... unless they are fan boys. If they are fan boys, I'd think they'd stay away from CACG holders altogether...
@Vasanti said:
It would be nice if they made the “failed to sticker” database public.
They don't want to get sued.
Perhaps PCGS should put a scarlet letter on any reconsideration that fails to upgrade? Maybe PCGS could also create a database of NGC coins that failed to cross at grade. That would be helpful.
I'm not sure the legal bills will make grading cheaper, though.
@RLSnapper said:
Like I said....one will go on the assumption that any Legacy CACG coin once resided in an NGC holder unless there is a PCGS TruView of the coin that matches.
You do realize that not every PCGS graded coin has a TV, right?? There seem to be a lot of PCGS koolaid drinkers that are very nervous and scared in this thread.
Agreed. Although you'd kind of expect it on this forum.
I don't know why anyone would care if the Legacy CACG was formerly NGC or PCGS... unless they are fan boys. If they are fan boys, I'd think they'd stay away from CACG holders altogether...
There is great fear of value loss, when this legacy idea was first floated on the CAC forum a few wanted the label not only to note a previously stickered coin as a legacy coin but also to note which TPG it was previously graded by. Wiser minds prevailed and that part of the idea was soundly rejected. There are many. even those who claim to support CAC grading, who are very fearful their PCGS graded coins if crossed over will be tarnished (and the value diminished) by being mixed in with crossovers from NGC graded coins.
At the risk of being Capt. obvious, the value in the legacy designation is that it retains, rather than loses, proof of the 2nd opinion of grade, as 2 opinions are more valuable than one.
@Vasanti said:
It would be nice if they made the “failed to sticker” database public.
They don't want to get sued.
Perhaps PCGS should put a scarlet letter on any reconsideration that fails to upgrade? Maybe PCGS could also create a database of NGC coins that failed to cross at grade. That would be helpful.
I'm not sure the legal bills will make grading cheaper, though.
That’s like saying you could sue PCGS for giving a coin an MS63 instead of an MS65.
@RLSnapper said:
Like I said....one will go on the assumption that any Legacy CACG coin once resided in an NGC holder unless there is a PCGS TruView of the coin that matches.
You do realize that not every PCGS graded coin has a TV, right?? There seem to be a lot of PCGS koolaid drinkers that are very nervous and scared in this thread.
Agreed. Although you'd kind of expect it on this forum.
I don't know why anyone would care if the Legacy CACG was formerly NGC or PCGS... unless they are fan boys. If they are fan boys, I'd think they'd stay away from CACG holders altogether...
There is great fear of value loss, when this legacy idea was first floated on the CAC forum a few wanted the label not only to note a previously stickered coin as a legacy coin but also to note which TPG it was previously graded by. Wiser minds prevailed and that part of the idea was soundly rejected. There are many. even those who claim to support CAC grading, who are very fearful their PCGS graded coins if crossed over will be tarnished (and the value diminished) by being mixed in with crossovers from NGC graded coins.
Of course they are free to let their coins continue to reside in PCGS holders with a CAC sticker attached. All Legacy coins will have been previously approved by CAC and a top TPG and now by CACG. Little to fear after three separate grading events involving a half a dozen of the top graders in the world.
The reality is that I bought and sold 600 DE's over the past 10 years. I managed to own 1 plus grade that was stickered. After viewing the video I now have a better understanding as to why a CACG + coin more than likely will sell for a higher price than a PCGS + w/Cac sticker. It is good to know. Unless I missed, quite a bit more , I still am incline to believe that I would pay more for a TPG graded coin w/ a CAC sticker then a CAGG graded coin alone.
Does the legacy designation have any value to you? For example there could be a CACG 64+ Legacy. You're not going to know if the previous holder was PCGS, or NGC, however we would know that the coin was previously stickered as either a 64 or 64+ from one of those TPGS. CACG has then marked it as an A coin by awarding a + when it crossed.
I would much rather have that coin than the identical coin in the p/n holder as a 64/64+ with the sticker. I know the coin was already stickered at that number grade, so we have more than 1 opinion, and I now know that CAC believes its an A coin.
This is not necessarily true, and will be even less likely to be true if they end up giving the L designation to gold stickered coins (last I read, there was no clarity on this point). This is one of the problems I have with the Legacy designation. People will look at a CACG 65L and assume it was also a 65 at PCGS/NGC and that may not be true. Maybe it was a 63 gold CAC, for example, or maybe even a 64 green CAC that was close to getting a gold, like the 1795 dollar posted by @Zoins. JA has described gold stickers as 1.5 grades higher, so there is a lot of room for green CAC stickers to bump up a full number grade. The Legacy designation says nothing at all about how PCGS or NGC felt about a coin, other than that it was in one of their holders. I am not sure that is how people are going to interpret it however.
This is not necessarily true, and will be even less likely to be true if they end up giving the L designation to gold stickered coins (last I read, there was no clarity on this point).
The Legacy designation says nothing at all about how PCGS or NGC felt about a coin, other than that it was in one of their holders. I am not sure that is how people are going to interpret it however.
I agree with this, but from the posts I have read in this thread and others I think it is guaranteed that is not how some people are going to interpret it.
@coinbuf, thanks for the link. At least green CACs that upgrade will not receive a Legacy designation, which I assumed would be most of the cases. However gold CACs will cross with a Legacy designation with no ceiling on the new grade. I agree with you - this is guaranteed to confuse people would think they are getting "two opinions" on the grade.
To me, the only value in the Legacy designation is you know JA agreed with the grade because the coin stickered during the era when he was the finalizer. That will be important to some people.
@ProofCollection said:
At the risk of being Capt. obvious, the value in the legacy designation is that it retains, rather than loses, proof of the 2nd opinion of grade, as 2 opinions are more valuable than one.
While there’s an indicator it was previously slabbed, I don’t think it’s as strong or equivalent to retaining proof of a 2nd opinion as no information is known or can be corroborated on the other opinion. The 2nd opinion and guarantee will have been cancelled and there’s no information on who provided that 2nd opinion.
@Vasanti said:
It would be nice if they made the “failed to sticker” database public.
They don't want to get sued.
Perhaps PCGS should put a scarlet letter on any reconsideration that fails to upgrade? Maybe PCGS could also create a database of NGC coins that failed to cross at grade. That would be helpful.
I'm not sure the legal bills will make grading cheaper, though.
I think they could defend against getting sued. I think it’s more that they’d get much fewer submissions, so a business decision more than a legal one.
The reality is that I bought and sold 600 DE's over the past 10 years. I managed to own 1 plus grade that was stickered. After viewing the video I now have a better understanding as to why a CACG + coin more than likely will sell for a higher price than a PCGS + w/Cac sticker. It is good to know. Unless I missed, quite a bit more , I still am incline to believe that I would pay more for a TPG graded coin w/ a CAC sticker then a CAGG graded coin alone.
Does the legacy designation have any value to you? For example there could be a CACG 64+ Legacy. You're not going to know if the previous holder was PCGS, or NGC, however we would know that the coin was previously stickered as either a 64 or 64+ from one of those TPGS. CACG has then marked it as an A coin by awarding a + when it crossed.
I would much rather have that coin than the identical coin in the p/n holder as a 64/64+ with the sticker. I know the coin was already stickered at that number grade, so we have more than 1 opinion, and I now know that CAC believes its an A coin.
This is not necessarily true, and will be even less likely to be true if they end up giving the L designation to gold stickered coins (last I read, there was no clarity on this point). This is one of the problems I have with the Legacy designation. People will look at a CACG 65L and assume it was also a 65 at PCGS/NGC and that may not be true. Maybe it was a 63 gold CAC, for example, or maybe even a 64 green CAC that was close to getting a gold, like the 1795 dollar posted by @Zoins. JA has described gold stickers as 1.5 grades higher, so there is a lot of room for green CAC stickers to bump up a full number grade. The Legacy designation says nothing at all about how PCGS or NGC felt about a coin, other than that it was in one of their holders. I am not sure that is how people are going to interpret it however.
I don’t think that “ JA has described gold stickers as 1.5 grades higher”. I think he’s described them as being at least solid for the next grade higher. In some cases that will be a one point difference but in others, it will be more, with a 2 point difference not being out of the question.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
The Lee-Morelan-Hansen 1795 Dollar is an interesting situation for CACG:
Will this be a CACG MS65 or CACG MS65+?
That is an interesting one, I imagine if it sent in for cross in the current pcgs holder, I doubt it would upgrade to 65 but it would have a great shot to cross at 64+. If it were cracked and sent raw, it would have a better shot to get into a 65 holder. This is a good example of the fact that grading is always subjective, and like JA said in one of those interviews, there is already too many grades when you factor in + grades. Another respected forum member had an early $20 lib in ngc 58 cac that downgraded to pcgs 55, and green stickered again.
You could say the coin should have had a gold sticker in the first place when it was NGC holdered, but as we've seen gold stickers is not always awarded to coins under graded by just 1 grade. From what Ive seen its normally is at least 1.5 grade under graded, in addition to extremely strong eye appeal, and likely an older holder These are some the the scenarios that everyone is curious how CACG will handle upon opening, but at the end of the day its understood by the community that grading by humans can only be so accurate, and I have a great deal of confidence in the finalizers who will be employed in Virginia Beach. Bill Shamhart, John Butler, and Ron Drzewucki are all top tier graders and we will see what kind of accuracy will ensue as a result of their extensive experience.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
.
The reality is that I bought and sold 600 DE's over the past 10 years. I managed to own 1 plus grade that was stickered. After viewing the video I now have a better understanding as to why a CACG + coin more than likely will sell for a higher price than a PCGS + w/Cac sticker. It is good to know. Unless I missed, quite a bit more , I still am incline to believe that I would pay more for a TPG graded coin w/ a CAC sticker then a CAGG graded coin alone.
This is a well known coin with CAC history so it will be very interesting to see what happens. Wonder if we'll get a chance to find out. Seems like it should be at least a CACG MS65 for consistency.
Plus grades in addition to CAC add more grades, to 100 distinct grades actually as documented here::
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1015887/the-100-point-grading-scale-in-use-today#latest
It goes the other way too. A green bean coin upgrades a full grade and green beans again.
If stickering (CACS) continues out of NJ, it will be interesting to compare the NJ and VB grades.
Does the legacy designation have any value to you? For example there could be a CACG 64+ Legacy. You're not going to know if the previous holder was PCGS, or NGC, however we would know that the coin was previously stickered as either a 64 or 64+ from one of those TPGS. CACG has then marked it as an A coin by awarding a + when it crossed.
I would much rather have that coin than the identical coin in the p/n holder as a 64/64+ with the sticker. I know the coin was already stickered at that number grade, so we have more than 1 opinion, and I now know that CAC believes its an A coin.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Another broad statement that's not necessarily true.
"2 opinions should always sell at a premium."
Every coin should be evaluated on its merits.
Go back and read my comment that you just responded to. You missed my point. If someone is putting together PCGS Registry sets, they usually won't be looking for coins in CACG slabs since those coins wouldn't be allowed in their PCGS registry sets.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Perhaps our host will sticker CAC certified coins!
I would argue it doesn’t matter. It’s one of the finest known and its value will be relative to the other finest known examples regardless of which holder it’s in.
I checked with John Albanese in order to confirm and as I had thought, you were incorrect in stating that “CAC stickered coins after June 5 are not guaranteed to cross into CACG holders…”. In my opinion, your speculation is also incorrect.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld I stand corrected.....any coin stickered after June 5 will not receive a legacy designation on the CACG holder upon crossing. The only rationale for seeking a CAC sticker is to complete a PCGS CAC Registry Set or go after the elusive Gold CAC unless one believes a PCGS CAC coin will have more value than CACG coin. Time will tell and the market will decide which coins reign supreme.
I’ll have to disagree again. There are other rationales that submitters have for seeking CAC stickers, a number of which have been posted here over the years.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm slow but catching on.
a legacy holder means the coin has been previously graded by another 3rd party, and has previously received the CAC sticker?
Am I correct?
No one believes how little I know and this should prove it
You are correct - about the sticker. I don’t know whether no one believes how little you know.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I understand what you are saying. For me, I rather know I truly have a "+" coin and while participating in any Registry is fun, it's also secondary.
Your post is making some assumptions, what if I didn't pay full market value when I bought the coin that failed to sticker? And how many times have you read a post here where someone was very happy to lose a grade on a crossover because they feel the new plastic has a greater market value than the old higher graded plastic (real or perceived). That scenario has been posted here many times in the past. Now I'm not saying that will happen right away, but it would be foolish to assume that it could not be the case in the future.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
It would be very cool if the CACG holder also had the PCGS or NGC number for the legacy holder. Then you reply could participate in PCGS registry sets as long as PCGS doesn’t deactivate the old cert.
It may not matter for this particular coin, but in general it may matter if PCGS is considered tighter on grading than CAC.
It could be cool to encapsulate the PCGS or NGC insert inside the CACG slab. This way, you have higher confidence the number is legit and won't be cancelled.
Yea, never gonna happen.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Probably has about the same likelihood to happen as putting the PCGS/NGC cert number on the insert.
Like I said....one will go on the assumption that any Legacy CACG coin once resided in an NGC holder unless there is a PCGS TruView of the coin that matches.
I agree , gonna be alot of photos taken and saved by collectors doing crossovers for legacy
Please clear me on this.
Do someone here has better output?
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
If one doesn't turn in their PCGS label, how will PCGS know their coin is now in an CACG holder?
JA has said CACG will be automatically sending the labels back into the other TPGs. Originally they suggested they would return them to collectors, but on the forum we recommended CACG automatically do that to keep pops accurate
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
You do realize that not every PCGS graded coin has a TV, right?? There seem to be a lot of PCGS koolaid drinkers that are very nervous and scared in this thread.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I will certainly be looking at CACG coins to cross to PCGS for my registry set. The price will have to make sense in order to do that of course.
I will keep trying to get stickers for my PCGS coins. Last month I submitted one which, according to greysheet retail, added $1500 value to the coin.
CAC has said member collectors. will get 20 passes per year and will not be charged for coins that fail to sticker. Does anyone know if that the 20 no charge fail coins have to be on one submission or say if I send 20 coins and 5 fail do I carry over 15 no charge for fails to future submissions?
Silviosi - I understand your angst.
Is that presale thing even still alive?
I never understood why that seller asking $5800 for a $3420 (CPG for PR70 DC) coin! Certainly not a deal for me lol. If they sell them at bid $2700 to him that’s double bubble plus for him isn’t it? While they go around and around on the holder / L game here in a PCGS forum that situation on that coin the seller does not even have in stock (presale) unbelievable. Perhaps (I would think) over there they have nerfed him by now / kicked forever. I would suggest read further on thread see where it is now. As far as when CACG matl out uask them (CAC). That’s not my hot potato pickup. Regards
JA addressed this question on the CAC forum, you get 20 failures which could come on one submission or one each over twenty submissions.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I know a guy who failed on 20 coins (convo last month) his first submission to them I believe. So I guess now the freebies over. At least he showed up to bat.
THANK-YOU for that info,,,,,, I am working on a submission now,,,,,, that helps.
It would be nice if they made the “failed to sticker” database public.
When people off bourse ask me what I have in something I say “Its confidential with the buyer.”
So if submitter I would want that courtesy and nothing revealed anywhere my coin did not sticker.
Ideally, yes. However, it’s one thing when they don’t charge for previously rejected submissions. It’s another thing when they do.
Finally, a discussion I know something about. I am solely qualified> @MFeld said:
I have the foolproof system. When I buy a stickered coin, I'm sure the coin passed. When I buy an unstickered coin, I'm sure the coin failed. I need not know anymore.
Agreed. Although you'd kind of expect it on this forum.
I don't know why anyone would care if the Legacy CACG was formerly NGC or PCGS... unless they are fan boys. If they are fan boys, I'd think they'd stay away from CACG holders altogether...
They don't want to get sued.
Perhaps PCGS should put a scarlet letter on any reconsideration that fails to upgrade? Maybe PCGS could also create a database of NGC coins that failed to cross at grade. That would be helpful.
I'm not sure the legal bills will make grading cheaper, though.
There is great fear of value loss, when this legacy idea was first floated on the CAC forum a few wanted the label not only to note a previously stickered coin as a legacy coin but also to note which TPG it was previously graded by. Wiser minds prevailed and that part of the idea was soundly rejected. There are many. even those who claim to support CAC grading, who are very fearful their PCGS graded coins if crossed over will be tarnished (and the value diminished) by being mixed in with crossovers from NGC graded coins.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
At the risk of being Capt. obvious, the value in the legacy designation is that it retains, rather than loses, proof of the 2nd opinion of grade, as 2 opinions are more valuable than one.
That’s like saying you could sue PCGS for giving a coin an MS63 instead of an MS65.
Of course they are free to let their coins continue to reside in PCGS holders with a CAC sticker attached. All Legacy coins will have been previously approved by CAC and a top TPG and now by CACG. Little to fear after three separate grading events involving a half a dozen of the top graders in the world.
This is not necessarily true, and will be even less likely to be true if they end up giving the L designation to gold stickered coins (last I read, there was no clarity on this point). This is one of the problems I have with the Legacy designation. People will look at a CACG 65L and assume it was also a 65 at PCGS/NGC and that may not be true. Maybe it was a 63 gold CAC, for example, or maybe even a 64 green CAC that was close to getting a gold, like the 1795 dollar posted by @Zoins. JA has described gold stickers as 1.5 grades higher, so there is a lot of room for green CAC stickers to bump up a full number grade. The Legacy designation says nothing at all about how PCGS or NGC felt about a coin, other than that it was in one of their holders. I am not sure that is how people are going to interpret it however.
So if I offer just bluesheet not to worry.
There is now. https://forum.cacgrading.com/discussion/962/cac-grading-news-legacy-and-plus-policy-update-6-10-23
I agree with this, but from the posts I have read in this thread and others I think it is guaranteed that is not how some people are going to interpret it.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
@coinbuf, thanks for the link. At least green CACs that upgrade will not receive a Legacy designation, which I assumed would be most of the cases. However gold CACs will cross with a Legacy designation with no ceiling on the new grade. I agree with you - this is guaranteed to confuse people would think they are getting "two opinions" on the grade.
To me, the only value in the Legacy designation is you know JA agreed with the grade because the coin stickered during the era when he was the finalizer. That will be important to some people.
While there’s an indicator it was previously slabbed, I don’t think it’s as strong or equivalent to retaining proof of a 2nd opinion as no information is known or can be corroborated on the other opinion. The 2nd opinion and guarantee will have been cancelled and there’s no information on who provided that 2nd opinion.
I think they could defend against getting sued. I think it’s more that they’d get much fewer submissions, so a business decision more than a legal one.
I don’t think that “ JA has described gold stickers as 1.5 grades higher”. I think he’s described them as being at least solid for the next grade higher. In some cases that will be a one point difference but in others, it will be more, with a 2 point difference not being out of the question.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.