@TwoKopeiki said:
It's a completely different model. What i look for from a TPG is different than what I look for from a grade validation service. As a TPG, it's only a matter of time until CAC graded coins will start showing variability / inconsistency in quality within grades. Then you'll have another JA step up and fill the need to validate how solid the coin is. If they are going the TPG route, i'd love to see their photography, registry and other perks you currently get from PCGS and NGC.
That's fine. All you need is another JA, and they are far and few between, with the desire and capital to fund the enterprise.
It takes a lot of money to fund the market making required to give the stickers meaning and value. That will inevitably come from Wall Street, at which point it would not be a JA clone, and would likely never gain the traction or market acceptance of CAC. If this was not the case, where have they been all along, and why would anyone wait for JA to start a grading service before invading the CAC second opinion market making space?
You missed my point entirely.
Which was what? That all CACG coins at a given grade won't be equally beautiful, and that will cause another JA to arise from the chaos to solve for it? No, I got it. I'm saying that won't happen, for the reasons set forth in my post.
but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
Just a tad defensive eh?
That wasn't your original question, this was........., @dollarfan said:
» show previous quotes
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify....................., so I clarified. Guess I hit a nerve.
Why would current CAC collectors be nervous? If anything, if the grading service were to somehow take a nosedive, I think the previously stickered pcgs coins would probably soar to the stratosphere. Coins like this are not getting uglier anytime soon and they will continue to be in heavy demand.
Wow Dan, that coin is going thru the stratosphere to the exosphere!! That is a dream coin
I wonder what happened to this MS61 PCGS coin that I sold. It's going to be 1989 all over again.
but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
Just a tad defensive eh?
That wasn't your original question, this was........., @dollarfan said:
» show previous quotes
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify....................., so I clarified. Guess I hit a nerve.
Why would current CAC collectors be nervous? If anything, if the grading service were to somehow take a nosedive, I think the previously stickered pcgs coins would probably soar to the stratosphere. Coins like this are not getting uglier anytime soon and they will continue to be in heavy demand.
Wow Dan, that coin is going thru the stratosphere to the exosphere!! That is a dream coin
I wonder what happened to this MS61 PCGS coin that I sold. It's going to be 1989 all over again.
but you never answered why CAC collectors may be nervous fools.
Just a tad defensive eh?
That wasn't your original question, this was........., @dollarfan said:
» show previous quotes
I was having a hard time trying to read between the lines here. So if you are a CAC collector, you are a nervous fool? Could you please clarify....................., so I clarified. Guess I hit a nerve.
Why would current CAC collectors be nervous? If anything, if the grading service were to somehow take a nosedive, I think the previously stickered pcgs coins would probably soar to the stratosphere. Coins like this are not getting uglier anytime soon and they will continue to be in heavy demand.
Wow Dan, that coin is going thru the stratosphere to the exosphere!! That is a dream coin
I wonder what happened to this MS61 PCGS coin that I sold. It's going to be 1989 all over again.
I missed something here. So what did happen?
1989 was a brief time where Greysheet went hyperbolic which telemarketers point to as the peak.
1989 was the market peak before the big crash. After the crash many filed bankruptcy. Jimmy defaulted on all his credit cards settled them thru cc Atty at 25c on $ then reopened his coin biz buying at the new / lower prices. I started setting up in 1990. If one offered a coin off bourse sometimes would wave at friend, Rip and say “hey Rip what’s it worth?” Then hand signal system / possibly flip. Like QB signaling WR. He expert on how buy right. Even after the crash the US stuff kept falling / people would not pay the money - so paying too much a no go. That’s about when I went to world gold, later on banking big time when gold went up. Those of us that were tough (buy low / sell high) survived. Just good ole smash mouth ball.
Looks like you answered your question in the first sentence. Was reacting to prior poster.
As far as their roll out? (if that’s term to use) surprised at that (PR AGE). Kept envisioning some auction one of their fav auc houses with hundreds of US Classic CACG slabs, different types plus bidders going nuts bidding them up.
@Cougar1978 said:
Looks like you answered your question in the first sentence.
As far as their roll out (if that’s term to use) surprised at that (PR AGE). Kept envisioning some auction one of their fav auc houses with hundreds of US Classic CACG slabs, different types plus bidders going nuts bidding them up.
As was already pointed out by another poster in reply to your previous similar post, this wasn’t a “roll out” or anything else on the part of CACG. It was an ad by a seller.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Haven't heard much about this recent statement from CACG:
_"Submitters will have the ability to cross a PCGS/NGC coin for a plus only on our new submission forms. Coins stickered between November 2007 and June 5, 2023, and crossed to CAC Grading will have a Legacy designation “-L” after the serial number. However, if this Legacy coin earns a plus in Virginia Beach, it will NOT be designated as a legacy coin. This is a different grading event with a different team of finalizers, as stated earlier. So, a Legacy coin can NEVER have a plus designation. The June 5th cutoff date for the Legacy designation is there to avoid gamification.
To see if your CAC stickered coin qualifies for an -L designation, please use our Coin Lookup page: CAC | Coin Look-Up (caccoin.com) and insert the serial number."_
Thought there would be a lot of banter re "A" coins not getting the Legacy designation, which is what is being described in the CACG release. The L designation could actually hurt the value of PCGS or NGC coin crossed to CACG because potential buyers will know it was NOT an "A" coin.
@Cougar1978 said:
Looks like you answered your question in the first sentence. Was reacting to prior poster.
As far as their roll out (if that’s term to use) surprised at that (PR AGE). Kept envisioning some auction one of their fav auc houses with hundreds of US Classic CACG slabs, different types plus bidders going nuts bidding them up.
Yeah, except that would be an unworkable mess. It would either be self-dealing, since it would involve insider owned coins, which would really destroy their credibility, or it would involve favoring some big customers over others. So I just don't think that will happen.
If you are looking to what the US Mint did with the dawn/dusk eagles, that was a very different situation because it was a government agency designating and selling its own inventory. Not the TPG, and not the auction house.
NGC and PCGS did not make a spectacle with their first coins 40 years ago. CACG would turn its rollout into a circus if it did that now. If they make special labels to commemorate their first coins, they will be doing exactly what JA said they will be actively avoiding, even at the expense of profits, since they could certainly charge a premium for such labels, and the market would certainly support it.
@TwoKopeiki said:
It's a completely different model. What i look for from a TPG is different than what I look for from a grade validation service. As a TPG, it's only a matter of time until CAC graded coins will start showing variability / inconsistency in quality within grades. Then you'll have another JA step up and fill the need to validate how solid the coin is. If they are going the TPG route, i'd love to see their photography, registry and other perks you currently get from PCGS and NGC.
That's fine. All you need is another JA, and they are far and few between, with the desire and capital to fund the enterprise.
It takes a lot of money to fund the market making required to give the stickers meaning and value. That will inevitably come from Wall Street, at which point it would not be a JA clone, and would likely never gain the traction or market acceptance of CAC. If this was not the case, where have they been all along, and why would anyone wait for JA to start a grading service before invading the CAC second opinion market making space?
You missed my point entirely.
Which was what? That all CACG coins at a given grade won't be equally beautiful, and that will cause another JA to arise from the chaos to solve for it? No, I got it. I'm saying that won't happen, for the reasons set forth in my post.
What I expect from a grading company is different than what I expect from a grade validation service. Registry, photography, etc...
@TwoKopeiki said:
It's a completely different model. What i look for from a TPG is different than what I look for from a grade validation service. As a TPG, it's only a matter of time until CAC graded coins will start showing variability / inconsistency in quality within grades. Then you'll have another JA step up and fill the need to validate how solid the coin is. If they are going the TPG route, i'd love to see their photography, registry and other perks you currently get from PCGS and NGC.
That's fine. All you need is another JA, and they are far and few between, with the desire and capital to fund the enterprise.
It takes a lot of money to fund the market making required to give the stickers meaning and value. That will inevitably come from Wall Street, at which point it would not be a JA clone, and would likely never gain the traction or market acceptance of CAC. If this was not the case, where have they been all along, and why would anyone wait for JA to start a grading service before invading the CAC second opinion market making space?
You missed my point entirely.
Which was what? That all CACG coins at a given grade won't be equally beautiful, and that will cause another JA to arise from the chaos to solve for it? No, I got it. I'm saying that won't happen, for the reasons set forth in my post.
What I expect from a grading company is different than what I expect from a grade validation service. Registry, photography, etc...
Oh. I was only responding to your prediction about another JA coming along to solve for "variability / inconsistency in quality within grades." I am sure you are not alone in expecting all the other goodies from a full blown grading service, and see no reason they wouldn't offer those things if they want to compete.
I imagine they will stay well within the consistency of those grading standards they followed adhering their sticker to. They must have acquired quite a few coins in preparation for beginning a new grading company. No surprise here. But people want upgrades which translates into submissions!
"I guess that there will be hundreds of thousands of CAC (graded) moderns in the Marketplace in the next few years...." JA
They won't all be early-die-state (EDS) pristine coins ..... there aren't that many out there....well. there are....moderns of 1970's and up. lol
For instance, what/how would they grade this 1939-D? Not only does it have a very detailed full strike, it's also a very colorful and prooflike piece! In addition, the steps have a barely noticeable tiny strike-thru, not a nick which I imagine is the culpritb as to why they didn't FS the coin. There are a few small marks, nothing major and one tiny carbon spot somewhere. PCGS graded it MS65 and I paid a $125 song for it. But personally, a coin like this with the aforementioned qualities, I mean, just how much more detail, color and prooflike could a coin get? Well...there's a little room for improvement, fewer nicks!! It's really that nice with the PL fields and the rare pattern of colors!
But like I said, people want upgrades which translates into submissions/money which runs a company! So I'm not holding my breath expecting anything different from another coin grading company.
I suspect, one coin grading company will eventually fade away while another takes the high road. I just can't see how the hobby will be able to support so many coin grading services. The coins that have been weeded out, will they come back in a higher grade? It will be interesting to see how a coin grading company will stay afloat with strict grading standards. They might start out strict but will they eventually cave in to dealer and collector demands for looser standards? The ANA is a perfect example of messing with the grading standards.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most coins and for that matter mods on eBay. If not the most material. One of my most popular sellers is slabbed 69 & 70 Mexico Silver 1oz Libertads. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure / demand to match that volume let alone catch up near it. Are they going to employ hundreds of graders?
Do the math making a recap of number of slabs on eBay by TPG.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Overall, I'm modestly disappointed with this entire discussion, including the PF70 moderns as well as the inconsistency in CAC stickers and + grades. I had hoped that CAC would keep it simple. I'm guessing it is just a product of the industry and market and that is simply too lucrative to refrain from going with market conditions.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
@TPRC said:
Overall, I'm modestly disappointed with this entire discussion, including the PF70 moderns as well as the inconsistency in CAC stickers and + grades. I had hoped that CAC would keep it simple. I'm guessing it is just a product of the industry and market and that is simply too lucrative to refrain from going with market conditions.
No TPG would stay in business without moderns. Do you think PCGS grades them because they find looking through half a million moderns is fun?
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
Price and Logistics. CACG pricing is probably going to be the highest priced grading service in the industry and that will limit submissions as I suspect retail buyers aren't going to be willing to pay much more for a CACG MS70 Silver Eagle than a PCGS. I could be wrong though. And CACG might have great bulk pricing (competitive with PCGS/NGC), although if standards are tougher and you get fewer 70's submitters probably won't go that route in mass quantity.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
The fact that the other guys had a 36+ year head start, and didn't have to compete with two other 800 gorillas for the first 36+ years of their existence. That's what.
CAGC has all the ingredients to be a formidable competitor, but they are unlikely to ever catch the other guys unless one or both of them close shop, let alone in 10 years or so. The world had changed since 1986. NGC and PGCs are too entrenched, and have too much of a lead for anyone, even JA, to take the lead in 10 years.
CACG might end up with more submissions at some point in the future, but it will take forever for them to overtake the number of the other slabs already in the market, unless a substantial portion are crossed over, which seems highly unlikely.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
Price and Logistics. CACG pricing is probably going to be the highest priced grading service in the industry and that will limit submissions as I suspect retail buyers aren't going to be willing to pay much more for a CACG MS70 Silver Eagle than a PCGS. I could be wrong though. And CACG might have great bulk pricing (competitive with PCGS/NGC), although if standards are tougher and you get fewer 70's submitters probably won't go that route in mass quantity.
Unless it's the lowest priced to grab market share. Everyone is putting them on a pedestal without giving JA credit for being a brilliant businessman, by thinking they might limit their business to classics, or only PQ coins for the grade. That is the sticker business, which is, obviously, as he has been saying all along, separate and distinct from this.
"PR70 First Delivery" is an indication that he is playing to win, and isn't screwing around in an effort to limit himself to the Legend Numismatics PCGS CAC highest echelon of the market. Why would any new competitor in any market start off at the high end of pricing, daring people to resist the urge to pay up for the privilege of doing business with them?
I'd go back to what JA said about not chasing initial profitability and infer that he is going to be giving it away, within the limits of his ability to handle volume as he ramps up, in an effort to establish a presence and gain market share. Hopefully, that will put downward pricing pressure on the competition. Time will tell, but, for now, let me dream!
@Cougar1978 said:
Yes curious what fees will be and if they would limit submitters. I would think having many submitters critical in that business.
I am sure once they build capacity that they will limit submitters to the extent the competition does, i.e., not at all. Otherwise, really, what's the point of starting the business at all? PR 70 First Delivery coins being available on TV for pre-sale should tell you all you need to know about how exclusive CACG coins are going to be.
CAC announced its new pricing structure today. The cost to sticker a coin has certainly gone up. The rarity level is now $1,000.00 with unlimited value. I think they're trying to encourage collectors and dealers to use CACG. I should mention that the regular tier is now $22.00 instead of $16.00. And they will charge a fee whether or not the coin stickers, but with a rebate in place.
@Tyrock said:
CAC announced its new pricing structure today. The cost to sticker a coin has certainly gone up. The rarity level is now $1,000.00 with unlimited value. I think they're trying to encourage collectors and dealers to use CACG. I should mention that the regular tier is now $22.00 instead of $16.00. And they will charge a fee whether or not the coin stickers, but with a rebate in place.
They're pricing isn't bad. That might keep our host from raising prices. I like that their regular tier limit is $3000, not $2500, which means you can include most new 1oz gold us mint products. Also nice that economy is under $500.
I'm still not seeing where new members can join, but also not seeing a note saying they can't any more.
Edited to add: $51 (75% of $68) for a NO-CAC on a $3000-10,000 coin is going to be painful.
Like that reholder is only $10, wish PCGS didn't charge so much.
@Tyrock said:
CAC announced its new pricing structure today. The cost to sticker a coin has certainly gone up. The rarity level is now $1,000.00 with unlimited value. I think they're trying to encourage collectors and dealers to use CACG. I should mention that the regular tier is now $22.00 instead of $16.00. And they will charge a fee whether or not the coin stickers, but with a rebate in place.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out since CACS is done by JA in NJ while CACG will be done by Bill Shamhart and team in Virginia Beach.
Doesn't mean CACG didn't do the photoshopping. JA is just telling everyone to cool their jets and assuring them that no coins have been graded yet. He's not saying the image was unauthorized, the product should not have been offered for presale, etc. He's just saying RCTV gold eagles will not be the first CACG slabbed coins.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
Price and Logistics. CACG pricing is probably going to be the highest priced grading service in the industry and that will limit submissions as I suspect retail buyers aren't going to be willing to pay much more for a CACG MS70 Silver Eagle than a PCGS. I could be wrong though. And CACG might have great bulk pricing (competitive with PCGS/NGC), although if standards are tougher and you get fewer 70's submitters probably won't go that route in mass quantity.
On what basis do you even make that claim about pricing? You make up a fact and draw a conclusion.
If price were the only consideration, neither NGC or PCGS would ever grade a modern.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
The fact that the other guys had a 36+ year head start, and didn't have to compete with two other 800 gorillas for the first 36+ years of their existence. That's what.
CAGC has all the ingredients to be a formidable competitor, but they are unlikely to ever catch the other guys unless one or both of them close shop, let alone in 10 years or so. The world had changed since 1986. NGC and PGCs are too entrenched, and have too much of a lead for anyone, even JA, to take the lead in 10 years.
CACG might end up with more submissions at some point in the future, but it will take forever for them to overtake the number of the other slabs already in the market, unless a substantial portion are crossed over, which seems highly unlikely.
If that were true, Sears would still be in business and neither PCGS or NGC would ever have caught ANACS.
I don't know that CACG even wants to be that big. But only a fool would insist that it cannot happen. My crystal ball remains broken.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
Price and Logistics. CACG pricing is probably going to be the highest priced grading service in the industry and that will limit submissions as I suspect retail buyers aren't going to be willing to pay much more for a CACG MS70 Silver Eagle than a PCGS. I could be wrong though. And CACG might have great bulk pricing (competitive with PCGS/NGC), although if standards are tougher and you get fewer 70's submitters probably won't go that route in mass quantity.
Unless it's the lowest priced to grab market share. Everyone is putting them on a pedestal without giving JA credit for being a brilliant businessman, by thinking they might limit their business to classics, or only PQ coins for the grade. That is the sticker business, which is, obviously, as he has been saying all along, separate and distinct from this.
"PR70 First Delivery" is an indication that he is playing to win, and isn't screwing around in an effort to limit himself to the Legend Numismatics PCGS CAC highest echelon of the market. Why would any new competitor in any market start off at the high end of pricing, daring people to resist the urge to pay up for the privilege of doing business with them?
I'd go back to what JA said about not chasing initial profitability and infer that he is going to be giving it away, within the limits of his ability to handle volume as he ramps up, in an effort to establish a presence and gain market share. Hopefully, that will put downward pricing pressure on the competition. Time will tell, but, for now, let me dream!
So you argue with me AND argue with the person who disagrees with me... I'd like to say I'm surprised but...
The Baltimore show is tomorrow, and I would’ve thought cac grading might have drove the short distance to set up a booth to explain their services and accept submissions, etc. That would’ve created a much needed buzz for that failing show, and started a nice public launch for that company. NGC and PCGS are both not doing any show grading, so this was an easy win for cac to present themselves and their marketing blew it.
@1madman said:
The Baltimore show is tomorrow, and I would’ve thought cac grading might have drove the short distance to set up a booth to explain their services and accept submissions, etc. That would’ve created a much needed buzz for that failing show, and started a nice public launch for that company. NGC and PCGS are both not doing any show grading, so this was an easy win for cac to present themselves and their marketing blew it.
They're not ready for it. In the Coingeek video I posted, they are slabbing their first coin next week. I would imagine it would be a couple of months before they consider their operation smooth enough to contemplate going on the road. There is no need to rush anything.
@jmlanzaf said:
On what basis do you even make that claim about pricing? You make up a fact and draw a conclusion.
If price were the only consideration, neither NGC or PCGS would ever grade a modern.
I certainly didn't make the claims with any certainty. This whole thread is about conjecture and speculation until facts are known. But what I do know is that if a submitter can submit a monster box of ASEs to PCGS and get a 50% MS70 yield or CAC and get a 35% yield, it's going to be pretty hard to justify bulk submitting to CAC unless some other economics make up for it, such as the price for an CAC vs PCGS MS70 coin in the retail market.
@Tyrock said:
CAC announced its new pricing structure today. The cost to sticker a coin has certainly gone up. The rarity level is now $1,000.00 with unlimited value. I think they're trying to encourage collectors and dealers to use CACG. I should mention that the regular tier is now $22.00 instead of $16.00. And they will charge a fee whether or not the coin stickers, but with a rebate in place.
Check out 24:21 in the Coingeek video posted by @ProofCollection above.
JA says that they raised the price of the sticking in order to "de-emphasize" sticking.
@TPRC said:
Overall, I'm modestly disappointed with this entire discussion, including the PF70 moderns as well as the inconsistency in CAC stickers and + grades. I had hoped that CAC would keep it simple. I'm guessing it is just a product of the industry and market and that is simply too lucrative to refrain from going with market conditions.
No TPG would stay in business without moderns. Do you think PCGS grades them because they find looking through half a million moderns is fun?
@jmlanzaf said:
No TPG would stay in business without moderns. Do you think PCGS grades them because they find looking through half a million moderns is fun?
Honestly, they use them to train & weed-out baby graders. I was talking with one at TNA last week. That's what he did. Sat in a room in the warehouse, with boxes of ASEs being put into piles.
After about 4 months, he moved on to other roles. Brain dead, but still alive.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@jmlanzaf said:
No TPG would stay in business without moderns. Do you think PCGS grades them because they find looking through half a million moderns is fun?
Honestly, they use them to train & weed-out baby graders. I was talking with one at TNA last week. That's what he did. Sat in a room in the warehouse, with boxes of ASEs being put into piles.
After about 4 months, he moved on to other roles. Brain dead, but still alive.
They use them as profit drivers. Yes, they hand them to the inexperienced but their goal is not training but profit.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
The fact that the other guys had a 36+ year head start, and didn't have to compete with two other 800 gorillas for the first 36+ years of their existence. That's what.
CAGC has all the ingredients to be a formidable competitor, but they are unlikely to ever catch the other guys unless one or both of them close shop, let alone in 10 years or so. The world had changed since 1986. NGC and PGCs are too entrenched, and have too much of a lead for anyone, even JA, to take the lead in 10 years.
CACG might end up with more submissions at some point in the future, but it will take forever for them to overtake the number of the other slabs already in the market, unless a substantial portion are crossed over, which seems highly unlikely.
If that were true, Sears would still be in business and neither PCGS or NGC would ever have caught ANACS.
I don't know that CACG even wants to be that big. But only a fool would insist that it cannot happen. My crystal ball remains broken.
Apples and trolley cars. ANACS did not have a 36 year head start, nor the benefit of the boom in grading moderns or bullion, which really wasn't a thing back in 1987.
Sears was mismanaged into the ground, but an appropriate comparison would be the gross dollar volume of their sales from 1893 to date, adjusted for inflation versus Walmart or whoever. Even if CACG catches someone in current volume at some point in the future, unless everything gets crossed over there will still be millions more PCGS and NGC coins in circulation than CACG.
That will take a lifetime to overcome, unless PCGS and NGC make the same mistakes Sears did. Easy to do in retail, where things are always changing. Not so much in grading, where things are not supposed to change.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
Price and Logistics. CACG pricing is probably going to be the highest priced grading service in the industry and that will limit submissions as I suspect retail buyers aren't going to be willing to pay much more for a CACG MS70 Silver Eagle than a PCGS. I could be wrong though. And CACG might have great bulk pricing (competitive with PCGS/NGC), although if standards are tougher and you get fewer 70's submitters probably won't go that route in mass quantity.
Unless it's the lowest priced to grab market share. Everyone is putting them on a pedestal without giving JA credit for being a brilliant businessman, by thinking they might limit their business to classics, or only PQ coins for the grade. That is the sticker business, which is, obviously, as he has been saying all along, separate and distinct from this.
"PR70 First Delivery" is an indication that he is playing to win, and isn't screwing around in an effort to limit himself to the Legend Numismatics PCGS CAC highest echelon of the market. Why would any new competitor in any market start off at the high end of pricing, daring people to resist the urge to pay up for the privilege of doing business with them?
I'd go back to what JA said about not chasing initial profitability and infer that he is going to be giving it away, within the limits of his ability to handle volume as he ramps up, in an effort to establish a presence and gain market share. Hopefully, that will put downward pricing pressure on the competition. Time will tell, but, for now, let me dream!
So you argue with me AND argue with the person who disagrees with me... I'd like to say I'm surprised but...
Not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive. I not only agree with you about pricing, I made the point before you did.
Doesn't mean I have to agree that CACG can have more slabs in the market in 10 years than the competition. You don't need to be surprised, but it would be nice if you could appreciate shades of grey.
Once CACG catches the other guys, which will take some time but is absolutely possible, they are going to have to overcome 36 years worth of slabs, which will take forever because the other guys did not have to compete with themselves, plus CACG, for the past 36 years.
@1madman said:
The Baltimore show is tomorrow, and I would’ve thought cac grading might have drove the short distance to set up a booth to explain their services and accept submissions, etc. That would’ve created a much needed buzz for that failing show, and started a nice public launch for that company. NGC and PCGS are both not doing any show grading, so this was an easy win for cac to present themselves and their marketing blew it.
I dunno. Looks to me like they have plenty of buzz without setting up at a "failing show." Especially with nothing but smoke and mirrors to offer, if they are not ready to accept submissions.
@Cougar1978 said:
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most mods on eBay. If not the most material. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure match that volume.
Who said that matching the volume of of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
Price and Logistics. CACG pricing is probably going to be the highest priced grading service in the industry and that will limit submissions as I suspect retail buyers aren't going to be willing to pay much more for a CACG MS70 Silver Eagle than a PCGS. I could be wrong though. And CACG might have great bulk pricing (competitive with PCGS/NGC), although if standards are tougher and you get fewer 70's submitters probably won't go that route in mass quantity.
Unless it's the lowest priced to grab market share. Everyone is putting them on a pedestal without giving JA credit for being a brilliant businessman, by thinking they might limit their business to classics, or only PQ coins for the grade. That is the sticker business, which is, obviously, as he has been saying all along, separate and distinct from this.
"PR70 First Delivery" is an indication that he is playing to win, and isn't screwing around in an effort to limit himself to the Legend Numismatics PCGS CAC highest echelon of the market. Why would any new competitor in any market start off at the high end of pricing, daring people to resist the urge to pay up for the privilege of doing business with them?
I'd go back to what JA said about not chasing initial profitability and infer that he is going to be giving it away, within the limits of his ability to handle volume as he ramps up, in an effort to establish a presence and gain market share. Hopefully, that will put downward pricing pressure on the competition. Time will tell, but, for now, let me dream!
So you argue with me AND argue with the person who disagrees with me... I'd like to say I'm surprised but...
Not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive. I not only agree with you about pricing, I made the point before you did.
Doesn't mean I have to agree that CACG can have more slabs in the market in 10 years than the competition. You don't need to be surprised, but it would be nice if you could appreciate shades of grey.
Once CACG catches the other guys, which will take some time but is absolutely possible, they are going to have to overcome 36 years worth of slabs, which will take forever because the other guys did not have to compete with themselves, plus CACG, for the past 36 years.
It's not just that though. To achieve volume, CACG has to either create a new collector base who wants only or mainly CACG slabs or convert existing PCGS & NGC & other TPG collectors, both of which will be an uphill battle. It depends how the registry game plays out, but but most PCGS-only/mainly and NGC-only/mainly collectors will be loathe to start buying CACG slabs that won't match their existing registries or collections and will probably be reluctant to convert. I'm projecting my personal thoughts onto the general collector population here so I could be way off base, but I would reckon most PCGS and NGC collectors are happy with these services and holders and have no real incentive or desire to change. To put it another way, I don't think there are groups of collectors that are clamoring for another alternative, ready to jump ship. There are some no-doubt, but I'd be surprised if there are a lot of them.
It could be a couple of months before their slabs in marketplace. Yawn - when they surpass no of ICG slabs on eBay (if ever) wake me up. Do you think people will bid them up? Crazy.
No am not looking for another alternative. PCGS works fine for me and is the no 1 TPG imo. Wont pay more for CAC anyway. Since not in registry thing it gets me all their yapping about it. Will be getting some currency graded by our hosts though.
As am in the biz have both PCGS & NGC plus some Anacs & ICG. I acquire estates / and some bourse walkup sellers.
Isn’t it a riot on that presale PF 70 on the AGE. Who will pay that? .
Comments
Which was what? That all CACG coins at a given grade won't be equally beautiful, and that will cause another JA to arise from the chaos to solve for it? No, I got it. I'm saying that won't happen, for the reasons set forth in my post.
I wonder what happened to this MS61 PCGS coin that I sold. It's going to be 1989 all over again.
I missed something here. So what did happen?
If I ever buy any more CAC want the slabbed ones. Just a preference like chrome wheels / tire rims vs painted on a sports car.
Buyer if offer off bourse / say bid plus 5pct.
1989 was a brief time where Greysheet went hyperbolic which telemarketers point to as the peak.
1989 was the market peak before the big crash. After the crash many filed bankruptcy. Jimmy defaulted on all his credit cards settled them thru cc Atty at 25c on $ then reopened his coin biz buying at the new / lower prices. I started setting up in 1990. If one offered a coin off bourse sometimes would wave at friend, Rip and say “hey Rip what’s it worth?” Then hand signal system / possibly flip. Like QB signaling WR. He expert on how buy right. Even after the crash the US stuff kept falling / people would not pay the money - so paying too much a no go. That’s about when I went to world gold, later on banking big time when gold went up. Those of us that were tough (buy low / sell high) survived. Just good ole smash mouth ball.
I admire most of the posters in this thread. A post like this shows me how little I know.
I've read it twice and I'm not sure what the point is?
Looks like you answered your question in the first sentence. Was reacting to prior poster.
As far as their roll out? (if that’s term to use) surprised at that (PR AGE). Kept envisioning some auction one of their fav auc houses with hundreds of US Classic CACG slabs, different types plus bidders going nuts bidding them up.
As was already pointed out by another poster in reply to your previous similar post, this wasn’t a “roll out” or anything else on the part of CACG. It was an ad by a seller.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Haven't heard much about this recent statement from CACG:
_"Submitters will have the ability to cross a PCGS/NGC coin for a plus only on our new submission forms. Coins stickered between November 2007 and June 5, 2023, and crossed to CAC Grading will have a Legacy designation “-L” after the serial number. However, if this Legacy coin earns a plus in Virginia Beach, it will NOT be designated as a legacy coin. This is a different grading event with a different team of finalizers, as stated earlier. So, a Legacy coin can NEVER have a plus designation. The June 5th cutoff date for the Legacy designation is there to avoid gamification.
To see if your CAC stickered coin qualifies for an -L designation, please use our Coin Lookup page: CAC | Coin Look-Up (caccoin.com) and insert the serial number."_
Thought there would be a lot of banter re "A" coins not getting the Legacy designation, which is what is being described in the CACG release. The L designation could actually hurt the value of PCGS or NGC coin crossed to CACG because potential buyers will know it was NOT an "A" coin.
Ok thanks for clarification - glad to hear it’s just an ad. Look forward to the rollout.
Yeah, except that would be an unworkable mess. It would either be self-dealing, since it would involve insider owned coins, which would really destroy their credibility, or it would involve favoring some big customers over others. So I just don't think that will happen.
If you are looking to what the US Mint did with the dawn/dusk eagles, that was a very different situation because it was a government agency designating and selling its own inventory. Not the TPG, and not the auction house.
NGC and PCGS did not make a spectacle with their first coins 40 years ago. CACG would turn its rollout into a circus if it did that now. If they make special labels to commemorate their first coins, they will be doing exactly what JA said they will be actively avoiding, even at the expense of profits, since they could certainly charge a premium for such labels, and the market would certainly support it.
FWIW, JA wasn't the first to grade material and make a market in it. He might have been the first to make a market in other people's grading.
As for an iteration backed by VC, it's already been done: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/other_peoples_money
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
What I expect from a grading company is different than what I expect from a grade validation service. Registry, photography, etc...
8 Reales Madness Collection
Oh. I was only responding to your prediction about another JA coming along to solve for "variability / inconsistency in quality within grades." I am sure you are not alone in expecting all the other goodies from a full blown grading service, and see no reason they wouldn't offer those things if they want to compete.
I imagine they will stay well within the consistency of those grading standards they followed adhering their sticker to. They must have acquired quite a few coins in preparation for beginning a new grading company. No surprise here. But people want upgrades which translates into submissions!
"I guess that there will be hundreds of thousands of CAC (graded) moderns in the Marketplace in the next few years...." JA
They won't all be early-die-state (EDS) pristine coins ..... there aren't that many out there....well. there are....moderns of 1970's and up. lol
For instance, what/how would they grade this 1939-D? Not only does it have a very detailed full strike, it's also a very colorful and prooflike piece! In addition, the steps have a barely noticeable tiny strike-thru, not a nick which I imagine is the culpritb as to why they didn't FS the coin. There are a few small marks, nothing major and one tiny carbon spot somewhere. PCGS graded it MS65 and I paid a $125 song for it. But personally, a coin like this with the aforementioned qualities, I mean, just how much more detail, color and prooflike could a coin get? Well...there's a little room for improvement, fewer nicks!! It's really that nice with the PL fields and the rare pattern of colors!
But like I said, people want upgrades which translates into submissions/money which runs a company! So I'm not holding my breath expecting anything different from another coin grading company.
I suspect, one coin grading company will eventually fade away while another takes the high road. I just can't see how the hobby will be able to support so many coin grading services. The coins that have been weeded out, will they come back in a higher grade? It will be interesting to see how a coin grading company will stay afloat with strict grading standards. They might start out strict but will they eventually cave in to dealer and collector demands for looser standards? The ANA is a perfect example of messing with the grading standards.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Chasing upgrades can be a money drain and put the project in the red fast.
PCGS & NGC have the most coins and for that matter mods on eBay. If not the most material. One of my most popular sellers is slabbed 69 & 70 Mexico Silver 1oz Libertads. This is a lead which is not going to go away. I don’t believe any competitor (existing or potential) has the infrastructure / demand to match that volume let alone catch up near it. Are they going to employ hundreds of graders?
Do the math making a recap of number of slabs on eBay by TPG.
Who said that matching the volume of NGC and PCGS was a goal?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Some tidbit's in today's video with Coingeek. Probably the biggest being that they will offer Legacy designation on a + coin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u76xP4Di34U
Overall, I'm modestly disappointed with this entire discussion, including the PF70 moderns as well as the inconsistency in CAC stickers and + grades. I had hoped that CAC would keep it simple. I'm guessing it is just a product of the industry and market and that is simply too lucrative to refrain from going with market conditions.
Tom
What actually prevents them from taking the lead over 10 years or so? If they become the TPG of choice, they will catch up.
No TPG would stay in business without moderns. Do you think PCGS grades them because they find looking through half a million moderns is fun?
Price and Logistics. CACG pricing is probably going to be the highest priced grading service in the industry and that will limit submissions as I suspect retail buyers aren't going to be willing to pay much more for a CACG MS70 Silver Eagle than a PCGS. I could be wrong though. And CACG might have great bulk pricing (competitive with PCGS/NGC), although if standards are tougher and you get fewer 70's submitters probably won't go that route in mass quantity.
Yes curious what fees will be and if they would limit submitters. I would think having many submitters critical in that business.
The fact that the other guys had a 36+ year head start, and didn't have to compete with two other 800 gorillas for the first 36+ years of their existence. That's what.
CAGC has all the ingredients to be a formidable competitor, but they are unlikely to ever catch the other guys unless one or both of them close shop, let alone in 10 years or so. The world had changed since 1986. NGC and PGCs are too entrenched, and have too much of a lead for anyone, even JA, to take the lead in 10 years.
CACG might end up with more submissions at some point in the future, but it will take forever for them to overtake the number of the other slabs already in the market, unless a substantial portion are crossed over, which seems highly unlikely.
Unless it's the lowest priced to grab market share. Everyone is putting them on a pedestal without giving JA credit for being a brilliant businessman, by thinking they might limit their business to classics, or only PQ coins for the grade. That is the sticker business, which is, obviously, as he has been saying all along, separate and distinct from this.
"PR70 First Delivery" is an indication that he is playing to win, and isn't screwing around in an effort to limit himself to the Legend Numismatics PCGS CAC highest echelon of the market. Why would any new competitor in any market start off at the high end of pricing, daring people to resist the urge to pay up for the privilege of doing business with them?
I'd go back to what JA said about not chasing initial profitability and infer that he is going to be giving it away, within the limits of his ability to handle volume as he ramps up, in an effort to establish a presence and gain market share. Hopefully, that will put downward pricing pressure on the competition. Time will tell, but, for now, let me dream!
I am sure once they build capacity that they will limit submitters to the extent the competition does, i.e., not at all. Otherwise, really, what's the point of starting the business at all? PR 70 First Delivery coins being available on TV for pre-sale should tell you all you need to know about how exclusive CACG coins are going to be.
Now that's a business idea! PCGS should sticker top tier CACG graded coins.
CAC announced its new pricing structure today. The cost to sticker a coin has certainly gone up. The rarity level is now $1,000.00 with unlimited value. I think they're trying to encourage collectors and dealers to use CACG. I should mention that the regular tier is now $22.00 instead of $16.00. And they will charge a fee whether or not the coin stickers, but with a rebate in place.
Stickering is different than grading. Grading companies thrive on moderns.
They're pricing isn't bad. That might keep our host from raising prices. I like that their regular tier limit is $3000, not $2500, which means you can include most new 1oz gold us mint products. Also nice that economy is under $500.
I'm still not seeing where new members can join, but also not seeing a note saying they can't any more.
Edited to add: $51 (75% of $68) for a NO-CAC on a $3000-10,000 coin is going to be painful.
Like that reholder is only $10, wish PCGS didn't charge so much.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out since CACS is done by JA in NJ while CACG will be done by Bill Shamhart and team in Virginia Beach.
Does CACS sticker sliders / market graded AU coins in MS 60+ grades?
If so, it could be interesting since CACG won’t be grading AU coins in 60 and higher grades.
How would a market graded coin ever qualify for a sticker to begin with?
One week of training?
Not sure which is why I asked.
On what basis do you even make that claim about pricing? You make up a fact and draw a conclusion.
If price were the only consideration, neither NGC or PCGS would ever grade a modern.
If that were true, Sears would still be in business and neither PCGS or NGC would ever have caught ANACS.
I don't know that CACG even wants to be that big. But only a fool would insist that it cannot happen. My crystal ball remains broken.
So you argue with me AND argue with the person who disagrees with me... I'd like to say I'm surprised but...
The Baltimore show is tomorrow, and I would’ve thought cac grading might have drove the short distance to set up a booth to explain their services and accept submissions, etc. That would’ve created a much needed buzz for that failing show, and started a nice public launch for that company. NGC and PCGS are both not doing any show grading, so this was an easy win for cac to present themselves and their marketing blew it.
They're not ready for it. In the Coingeek video I posted, they are slabbing their first coin next week. I would imagine it would be a couple of months before they consider their operation smooth enough to contemplate going on the road. There is no need to rush anything.
I certainly didn't make the claims with any certainty. This whole thread is about conjecture and speculation until facts are known. But what I do know is that if a submitter can submit a monster box of ASEs to PCGS and get a 50% MS70 yield or CAC and get a 35% yield, it's going to be pretty hard to justify bulk submitting to CAC unless some other economics make up for it, such as the price for an CAC vs PCGS MS70 coin in the retail market.
Check out 24:21 in the Coingeek video posted by @ProofCollection above.
JA says that they raised the price of the sticking in order to "de-emphasize" sticking.
No, I think you are 100 percent correct.
Tom
Honestly, they use them to train & weed-out baby graders. I was talking with one at TNA last week. That's what he did. Sat in a room in the warehouse, with boxes of ASEs being put into piles.
After about 4 months, he moved on to other roles. Brain dead, but still alive.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
They use them as profit drivers. Yes, they hand them to the inexperienced but their goal is not training but profit.
Apples and trolley cars. ANACS did not have a 36 year head start, nor the benefit of the boom in grading moderns or bullion, which really wasn't a thing back in 1987.
Sears was mismanaged into the ground, but an appropriate comparison would be the gross dollar volume of their sales from 1893 to date, adjusted for inflation versus Walmart or whoever. Even if CACG catches someone in current volume at some point in the future, unless everything gets crossed over there will still be millions more PCGS and NGC coins in circulation than CACG.
That will take a lifetime to overcome, unless PCGS and NGC make the same mistakes Sears did. Easy to do in retail, where things are always changing. Not so much in grading, where things are not supposed to change.
Not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive. I not only agree with you about pricing, I made the point before you did.
Doesn't mean I have to agree that CACG can have more slabs in the market in 10 years than the competition. You don't need to be surprised, but it would be nice if you could appreciate shades of grey.
Once CACG catches the other guys, which will take some time but is absolutely possible, they are going to have to overcome 36 years worth of slabs, which will take forever because the other guys did not have to compete with themselves, plus CACG, for the past 36 years.
I dunno. Looks to me like they have plenty of buzz without setting up at a "failing show." Especially with nothing but smoke and mirrors to offer, if they are not ready to accept submissions.
It's not just that though. To achieve volume, CACG has to either create a new collector base who wants only or mainly CACG slabs or convert existing PCGS & NGC & other TPG collectors, both of which will be an uphill battle. It depends how the registry game plays out, but but most PCGS-only/mainly and NGC-only/mainly collectors will be loathe to start buying CACG slabs that won't match their existing registries or collections and will probably be reluctant to convert. I'm projecting my personal thoughts onto the general collector population here so I could be way off base, but I would reckon most PCGS and NGC collectors are happy with these services and holders and have no real incentive or desire to change. To put it another way, I don't think there are groups of collectors that are clamoring for another alternative, ready to jump ship. There are some no-doubt, but I'd be surprised if there are a lot of them.
Well they won’t be converting me.
It could be a couple of months before their slabs in marketplace. Yawn - when they surpass no of ICG slabs on eBay (if ever) wake me up. Do you think people will bid them up? Crazy.
No am not looking for another alternative. PCGS works fine for me and is the no 1 TPG imo. Wont pay more for CAC anyway. Since not in registry thing it gets me all their yapping about it. Will be getting some currency graded by our hosts though.
As am in the biz have both PCGS & NGC plus some Anacs & ICG. I acquire estates / and some bourse walkup sellers.
Isn’t it a riot on that presale PF 70 on the AGE. Who will pay that? .