Options
Anyone else win 5 trophies/awards in one season ?
Goldenage
Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
In baseball, football, or basketball????
Done only once in hockey.????
4
Goldenage
Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
Goldenage
Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
Goldenage
Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Was he better than Gretsky?
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
Per game yes. Easily. But his career was cut short.
Gretzky and Lemieux averaged the same points per game. They were equal.
Orr averaged 1.4 ppg and won 8 straight Norris trophies.
#2 Coffey averaged 1.09 ppg and played over half his career with 99 and 66.
Orr dominated both ends of the ice. Gretzky and Lemieux no way.
Orr won two scoring championships,
Could of won a Vezina for all the shots he blocked.
Ever see 99 or 66 block a shot.
Nobody else dominated like Orr.
Check out his plus/minus Per Game compared to all the greats. It’s laughable how much greater he is. He dominated both ends of the ice.
Gretzkey won 9 MVP's including 8 in a row. I love Orr but to say he is easily better is blasphemy. I would say 1A & 1B.
In the NFL Defensive guys like to say that LT was the greatest player of all time.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
LT would have to win 8 straight Defensive MVPs while winning 2 scoring titles and leading the league in rushing 2 years, and be close to the top each other year to be compared to Bobby Orr. He’d have to lead his team to two SB championships also.
I understand Orr's accomplishments but I still cannot say he was easily better than Wayne.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I almost forgot, that pic you posted with the cards is badass. Well done!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
That display is so cool!
I notice the actual numbers were left off.
Gretzky averaged 1.921 ppg
Lemeiux 1.883
Orr 1.393
That is more than half a point per game difference and Gretzky did if for a far longer time.
Orr +/- 580
Gretzky 520
Thank you. Channel 38 in Boston. If you saw Orr play all his career, you’d feel like me and Scotty Bowman. Gretzky and Lemieux were awesome too.
Yaz pulled off the feat in 1967. Here are images of the trophies he won (not his specific awards and some are not era correct to what they looked like in ‘67. Others did it many times with awards that are not official MLB awards - surprised how hard it was for me to find a player that had 5. Would have been a few more if the Silver Slugger Award existed before 1980.
Al MVP, Gold Glove, AL Batting Title, Triple Crown Award, Hutch Award
Ohtani could get 6!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Thanks, but doesn’t compare to Orr. AL and NL gave out gold gloves and batting titles. If MLB only gave out awards to the entire league then it would compare to the NHL.
We need a both league batting champ, HR leader, BA, league MVP, WS champ, and WS mvp to compare it to what Bobby Orr did.
In 1988 Jordan won:
MVP
All-Star Game MVP
All-NBA 1st Team
Defensive Player of the Year
NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
NBA Scoring Champion
NBA Steals Leader
He's also had seasons where he finished with MVP,FMVP,AS-MVP,Scoring Champ,1st team All-NBA and 1st team All-Defensive,
Hakeem Olajuwon in 1994 won MVP,FMVP,DPOY,1st team All-NBA and 1st team All-Defensive.
In the current NBA, Giannis is someone capable of possibly winning 5 or more awards. In 2020 he won MVP,DPOY,1st team All-NBA and 1st team All-Defensive.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
To me The Stanley Cup doesn’t count. It is a team award.
There are no trophies for HR leaders and there are several players who qualify if I count WS Rings.
For example in 1980 Schmidt won the MVP, the World Series MVP, won a World a series ring, had a Gold Glove, led MLB in home runs with 48, led MLB in RBIs (was one behind the MLB leader), won the Silver Slugger award.
Both league is BS as there were 14 teams in the NHL in 1970 and 12 teams in the National League in 1980. Leading a league was the equivalent of leading the NHL.
The Norris trophy is only available for Defensemen as the gold glove for 3B is only available for Third Basemen. Both are positional awards, hockey has The Selke for best defensive Forward and the Vezina for best Goalie.
I think what Schmidt did is equal to Orr.
Frank Robinson in 1966 won the Triple Crown, the AL MVP and the WS MVP.
There were 12 players in the NL competing for a gold glove.
There were 56 to 70 Defensemen competing for the Norris trophy.
Is there another league where only 12 guys compete for an award ?
I'm a huge Orr fan. I grew up in Boston (West Roxbury) and was 14 in 1970 when The Bruins were at their peak.
To me, however, Gretzky was the best. As you probably know, he holds 61 different NHL records still today. I'll just mention 3 that, to me, are debate ending.
1) If you took away every goal Gretzky ever scored, he'd still be the all time points leader.
2) He's the only player to ever score over 200 points is a season, and he did it 4 times.
3) He's the fastest player ever to 1000 points (424 game)... and, oh, by the way, he's the second fastest to 1000 points (in his next 433 games).
To the people who say he didn't play defense: If you watched him, very few anticipated passing lanes and stole pucks like he did. Also, what is a better defense than keeping the puck in the opponents end the way he did?
...Just my 2 cents.
Love #99 also !!!
Love this guy too.
Doen't everyone get a trophy nowadays?
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Schmidt getting a gold glove against 11 other guys is like the NBA giving a “best free throw shooter” award to each team in the NBA.
MLB is the trophy league.
I give my nod to Gretzky as the greatest hockey player (maybe athlete).
Orr would get the nod as the greatest defenceman in hockey history.
Two very different accomplishments.
Gretzky revolutionized the entire league. Gretzky was more than just a scoring machine.
He was able to take a young group of teammates and to turn them into HOFers (6) and championships (5). Those (6 players) were able to have long successful careers and brought their talents to different cities (throughout the league) for almost 20 years.
I think it would have been interesting to see both Orr and Lemieux play full careers.
There were 24 1st line defensemen that get enough minutes to have a chance to win the award - Orr is not competing against a 2nd or 3rd line defensemen. The equivalent players in baseball are in AAA.
I love hockey and Orr is a greater player for his career than Schmidt, or Robinson, or Yaz - but not necessarily in their best season. Not a greater player than Babe Ruth, on par with Mays, Cobb, Aaron and the like.
As for dominant seasons no season was more dominant than Ruth in 1921 - .374 avg, 54 HR and 135 RBIs. His OBP was .532 - the man reached base more than half the time, or pick 1920 or pick 1921, or 1924 when he won the Triple Crown with .378/46/148. Awards didn’t exist back then for the Babe to win.
Bob Cousy was better than MJ. No way could MJ guard him.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is known as moving the goalposts.
Jordan would have ended up covering one of Sam Jones,Tommy Heinsohn,Satch Sanders or John Havlicek long before taking on a point guard in Cousy.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Orr had too short a career to be called the greatest ever - longevity has to be included in the mix. But no player has ever had looked as athletic as Orr on the ice , the hair flying and the hunched over skating stance and the powerful legs. ( Sorry Guy , but you get second place .
Hasek and Dryden are tied with a lifetime .922 save percentage. Both #1 all time.
Both dominated.
Hasek played 300 more games.
So Dryden is clearly #2 all time because of longevity, correct ?
You just can't take stats like +/- per game or save percentage in a vacuum and decide who is the best based on those. Point shares attempts to be an "all in one" stat. I think it does a good job, but it has surprising results. In order, the seven players with more than 200 point shares are Gretzky, Bourque, Luongo, Howe, Jagr, Lidstrom, Brodeur. Hasek is at number 35 and Dryden, well, suffice it to say that Dryden is below Jaroslav Halak. Orr is 41, between Leetch and Chara.
I never thought of Bourque being with Gretzky as the best of all time, though he is a whopping 10% "better" than Luongo. I think he deserves another look. I also never saw Luongo as anything special compared to near contemporaries like Roy, Brodeur, Lundquist, Joseph and, yes, Hasek. Perhaps his career deserves another look.
Regardless, it's really hard to consider for best of all time a guy who played 36 games (for whatever reason) after his 27th birthday.
This same topic of "Orr was the best measured on a per game basis" was debated just two months ago.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13259946#Comment_13259946
I'll put it on the calendar again for November. We might have to suffer through one more round of "Clemens was clean" first though.
Another crazy Gretzky stat:
During the 80's he had more 5 point games (85) than he had 0 point games (74).
...and yes, I think Ray Bourque is underrated.
Just looked at the NHL all-time Point Shares list - biggest surprise to me was CuJo at #26 all-time. He really should be a Hall of Famer.
Point shares is silly.
Dryden and Hasek are easily the GOAT goalies.
Orr easily the GOAT defenseman.
Gretzky and Howe the GOAT forwards.
I think Glenn Hall and Patrick Roy are in the conversation for GOAT goalies as is Tretiak.
Bobby Clarke played against Orr and Gretzky and said Orr needed a better league to play in.
He never said that about Gretzky.
Orr was a plus +0.9 per game.
Everyone else a huge distant second.
Orr dominated both ends of the ice like no one else ever.
Gretzky said Howe and Orr are the best all time.
Scotty Bowman said Orr is #1 all time.
Yet others want to listen to point shares. I’ll listen to the greats of the game instead.
>
>
>
Alan Page.
Didn't Stargell win a whole series of awards in 79?
kevin
Bill Russell #6
NCAA champion 1956
UPI College Player of the Year 1956
Helms Player of the Year 1956
Consensus first-team All-American 1956
WCC Player of the Year 1956
First-team All-WCC 1956
Olympic Gold Medal 1956
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Coffey had a better career by every statistical measure , he was dam good .
Best player and best career are two different things. All-Time point shares measure the best career. Seasonal point-shares measure the best player. By Pont-Share Bobby Orr has 4 of the top 10 all-time seasons - more than anybody else (and also has #11). Point-shares accurately say that Orr was one of the top players of all-time, but because of the brevity of his career, he did not have one of the best careers of all-time.
How you value greatness is different for us all.
If you were drafting an All-Time team - are you doing it for one season, or are you doing it for who will have the most cumulative value for your franchise? Orr broke at the age of 27. He definitely doesn’t rank as a great Blackhawk even though he played his age 28-30 seasons there (while mostly injured). Borque won his 4th and 5th Norris trophies after the age of 27 and finished in the Top 5 in Norris voting 11 more times after that age.
If I were a GM and I had perfect information about their careers I would draft Bourque and his 20+ great seasons over Orr and his 9 Greater seasons.
If I were drafting to win one game or to win one season Orr is an easy choice.
Look, nobody thinks there were forty players better than Orr. Nobody. But you can't use a rate stat, even one as useless as +/- per game, to compare them. Instead you have to take Orr plus thirteen years of some other guy to compare to, say, Bourque.
I'm not aware of anyone (else) who thinks Dryden was the all-time best goalie. Hasek is more debatable, but how can you say "easily"? I mean there must be some basis.
Any of the old fashioned kind of goats in hockey that are especially infamous? Not like this one though; this one is way too sad
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Bobby Orr was a plus 0.9 per game.
Gretzky a plus 0.25 per game
Coffey a plus 0.2 per game.
Let’s face it. You guys just never saw Bobby Orr play. If you did, you’d understand.
Coffey played over half his career with Gretzky and Lemieux and averaged 1.09 points per game.
Orr played with neither of those top two points per game leaders and averaged 1.4 points per game.
Orr #1 all time in ppg for D.
Coffey a distant #2 all time.
The ppg distance between Orr and Coffey is like MJ averaging 33 ppg and Chamberlain averaging 42 ppg.
The question asked for awards in professional leagues, not collegiate.
It's quite confusing how Brodeur doesn't enter in to either of these two comments, he's quite clearly the GOAT of NHL goalies...almost 150 more wins than second place Roy, shutout leader, games played leader, single handedly turned a franchise into a perennial championship contender, and I guess 2nd all time in goaltender points is noteworthy too.
His career save percentage is terrible. He had great teams and great defense. Overrated
Comparing Coffey and his defense and points per game to Bobby Orr is like comparing Bernard King and his defense and ppg to Jordan.
Just try to find Brodeur and Roy on this list.
https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-goalies-all-time-save-percentage-leaders.html