@brad31 said:
Why hate the Blackhawks cards? They saved the Bruins $3MM at a time when that was a lot of money!
Because of Alan Eagleson. He lied to Orr to get him to Chicago
Boston offered Orr ownership of the team and Alan never told him.
Orr was definitely not told of the deal and would have signed with the Bruins. Would it really have been good for Boston to have a player who earned about $4.8MM in his career (would have been $3.8MM without the Blackhawks deal) own 18.5% of the Bruins? Teams absolutely needs more wealthy owners who can weather occasional losses.
Wayne Gretzky’s kids wore Bobby Orr pajamas.
Bobby Orr stands still faster than anyone else can skate.
Bobby Orr once played a game of Connect Four in the locker room and won in three moves.
Bobby Orr tied his skates with his feet.
Bobby Orr was so fast it took only 12 minutes to have a 20 minute period.
Bobby Orr’s cowboy boots were made from real cowboys.
Covid is double vaccinated against Bobby Orr.
@GreenSneakers said:
Wayne Gretzky’s kids wore Bobby Orr pajamas.
Bobby Orr stands still faster than anyone else can skate.
Bobby Orr once played a game of Connect Four in the locker room and won in three moves.
Bobby Orr tied his skates with his feet.
Bobby Orr was so fast it took only 12 minutes to have a 20 minute period.
Bobby Orr’s cowboy boots were made from real cowboys.
Covid is double vaccinated against Bobby Orr.
Be very careful. And tread lightly. We can all have fun talking sports around here but now I’m worried for you and about you. Some things you don’t do, man. I had a buddy once just like you who thought it would be cool to reassign a few jokes. “Who’s going to know?”, he said. After the funeral, the police officer showed me my buddy’s body cam footage from his last night out in a bar.
Ever.
I’m definitely breaking some statutes and probably some laws but I’m sharing the aforementioned footage here for the first time, because I like you, and as a general reminder and public service announcement:
Never forget…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I’m starting to feel that people who joined this thread just want to argue instead of answer the question.
>
In all fairness you are throwing around terms like "easily" and "not even close" in a valid debate about greatness, so yes, people on the internet will argue
In all fairness I said how much I love Gretzky and Lemieux.
If you saw Orr you’d understand why I say what I say.
Comparing Orr’s plus minus to other greats is like comparing MJ at 33 ppg to Wilts 42 plus 22 rebounds.
I’m starting to feel that people who joined this thread just want to argue instead of answer the question.
>
In all fairness you are throwing around terms like "easily" and "not even close" in a valid debate about greatness, so yes, people on the internet will argue
In all fairness I said how much I love Gretzky and Lemieux.
If you saw Orr you’d understand why I say what I say.
Comparing Orr’s plus minus to other greats is like comparing MJ at 33 ppg to Wilts 42 plus 22 rebounds.
There is a very strong, and not unreasonable, argument for Bobby Orr as the GOAT.
I am old enough to have seen Orr play since 1971 when I went to my first Flyers' game. I have watched (and re-watched) a ton of hockey as I bleed orange and black. Whether it is the 1970 All-Star Game in St. Louis (Orr was MVP in a game the players actually cared about), the 72 Summit Series (IMHO the most dramatic sporting event ever - you couldn't script it better), the 1987 Rendezvous, 87 Canada Cup, etc.
Orr's skating was significantly better than his peers and he used that to be the most dominant defenseman to ever play.
Lemieux was probably the 2nd most physically gifted player ever. A rare combination of size and skill. (Too bad Lindros could never have a healthy season)
Gretzky didn't stand out like that. His gift was his anticipation and awareness of everyone on the ice (Professor X vs Wolverine). It was as though he had a coach in the press-box talking to him through an ear piece.
So, I have put a lot of thought into this over the years: The impact of expansion, the growth of the talent pool (overall population growth, influx of Europeans, development of USA Hockey, etc), the increase in the size of players, the implementation of more advanced coaching systems, developments in training and technique, the improvements in equipment, etc.
That said, personally, I will take Wayne Gretzky seven days a week and twice on Sunday.
I know a lot of people don't like the "+/-" stat. As a stand-alone stat, I agree, although, analyzed further and over a longer period of time, I do think it can tell a lot.
Mark Howe is one of my favorite players and I was always impressed by his 85-86 season, which, along with the 82-83 season, he was robbed of the Norris Trophy.
Anyway, here is an analysis of "+/-" that I believe is relevant to this thread. My apologies for further hijacking this thread (and writing a novella).
I think Howe was the best player (not the most important) the Flyers have ever had. Over at a sports collectors forum, there was a guy trying to argue the defensive strengths of Phil Housley as part of a who was not in the HHOF thread just as Howe got elected. Eventually, it lead to the part I have quoted below. It was something I had always pondered, particularly in consideration of Howe's 85-86 season. I hope it makes sense and you enjoy it. It also confirmed my own observations from watching the players.
I took a deeper look into my initial analysis of play at EVEN strength. I have a bit of data but will only summarize the methodology and the results.
What I did was take the +/- data for the player and his team for that season (GF less PPGF for Net Goals For ["NGF"] and GA less PPGA for Net Goals Against ["NGA"] that provides net +/-). Consequently, you then have that data for when the player was and was not on the ice. NGF/NGA provides a scoring ratio for the team, player and team w/o the player. Winning teams will almost always have ratios over 1::1 (perhaps a team that has at least a 25+ differential in their special teams will be over .500) and losing teams below 1::1. Once I got that data, I kept both the raw spread of their on/off performance and the ratio of the on/off performance. Hopefully the examples below will present in a readable fashion. The expectation at EVEN strength is that a good player will have a higher NGF/NGA ratio than the team has when he is not on the ice. This would apply to a bad team as well. For example if a team gives up one goal for every 0.90 goals it scores then a really good player on that team may have a 0.93 ratio and the rest of the team a 0.88 ratio.
I looked at Howe from 79-80 through 87-88 (nine seasons), Langway from 82-83 through 88-89, Coffey and Gretzky while at Edmonton, Bourque's whole career and Orr from 67-68 through 74-75. Also Housley from start of career through Winnipeg.
Thus, looking at Booby Orr's line, in 1970-71 he was on the ice for 258 Boston goals, 79 were PP goals for a NGF of 179. He was on the ice for 85 goals against, 30 of them while shorthanded for a NGA of 55. His +/- was a record +124 (179-55). Boston scored a total of 399 goals, 80 of which were on the PP for a NGF of 319. The team had 207 GA, 53 of them shorthanded for a NGA of 154 and a team +/- of +165 (319-154). When Orr was not on the ice, the team had a NGF of 140 (319-179) and a NGA of 99 (154-55). At even strength, the Bruins outscored their opponents by 2.071::1 (319/154). When Orr was on the ice, they outscored their opponents 3.255::1 (179/55) and when he was not they outscored their opponents 1.414::1 (140/99). When Orr was on the ice at even strength, the Bruins were 1.84 goals better than when he was not (3.255-1.414) or 2.3x more productive (3.255/1.414).
Thoughts about even strength performance:
Coffey was as I expected - very slightly above the rest of the team some years and below in others. He looks good in the other metrics in that his play was directly, more than indirectly, responsible for goals (goals and assists). It doesn't hide the fact that his team often did better at outscoring an opponent at even strength when he was not on the ice.
Housley was similar to Coffey. In this evaluation, he only had two seasons that would rank with Howe's two worst (79-80 when he was a forward and 83-84). Of course, those two worst were really good seasons, though.
Bourque was amazingly consistent. Only at the end of his Boston tenure did the team perform better with him off the ice. His career spread was 0.373 goals. The nine years I looked at for Howe, his spread was 0.496.
Langway was up and down. Amazingly, in his Norris trophy year, the rest of the team very slightly outperformed him at even strength. However, the Caps were something like 87% on the PK, primarily due to Langway. Howe still should have won the Norris.
Orr was simply amazing. Of the group I looked at, other than Howe, he was the only player to have a ratio 2x the rest of the team, but he did it 4 times. His spread for the years looked at was 1.031 goals.
Gretzky was also amazing, although his numbers don't jump off the page like Orr's. I think this is because the stats I'm looking at favor defensemen (or at least stud defensemen) in that they typically have more Time on Ice (TOI), can influence the flow of play a bit more and +/- probably underweights ACTUAL points (although I believe to a lesser degree than GVT and PS overweight points). For example, in the 84-85 stats above, Gretzky was on the ice for 249 Edmonton goals. He had POINTS on 208 of THEM!!! (for comparison, 70-71 Orr had 139 points on the 258 goals scored when he was on the ice)
1985
-Art Ross
-Hart
-Lester B. Pearson
-Conn Smythe
-Stanley Cup
Edit to add, in 1985, Gretzky also won:
NHL Plus-Minus Award (Emery Edge trophy)
Chrysler-Dodge/NHL Performer of the Year
Lou Marsh trophy (best Canadian athlete)
Lionel Conacher Award (best Canadian Male athlete)
All-NHL 1st Team All-Star
Hart
Art Ross
Lester B. Pearson
NHL Plus-Minus Award (Emery Edge trophy)
Stanley Cup
Canada Cup
Chrysler-Dodge/NHL Performer of the Year
Rende-vous '87 NHL MVP
All-NHL 1st Team All-Star
@georgebailey2 said:
There is a very strong, and not unreasonable, argument for Bobby Orr as the GOAT.
I am old enough to have seen Orr play since 1971 when I went to my first Flyers' game. I have watched (and re-watched) a ton of hockey as I bleed orange and black. Whether it is the 1970 All-Star Game in St. Louis (Orr was MVP in a game the players actually cared about), the 72 Summit Series (IMHO the most dramatic sporting event ever - you couldn't script it better), the 1987 Rendezvous, 87 Canada Cup, etc.
Orr's skating was significantly better than his peers and he used that to be the most dominant defenseman to ever play.
Lemieux was probably the 2nd most physically gifted player ever. A rare combination of size and skill. (Too bad Lindros could never have a healthy season)
Gretzky didn't stand out like that. His gift was his anticipation and awareness of everyone on the ice (Professor X vs Wolverine). It was as though he had a coach in the press-box talking to him through an ear piece.
So, I have put a lot of thought into this over the years: The impact of expansion, the growth of the talent pool (overall population growth, influx of Europeans, development of USA Hockey, etc), the increase in the size of players, the implementation of more advanced coaching systems, developments in training and technique, the improvements in equipment, etc.
That said, personally, I will take Wayne Gretzky seven days a week and twice on Sunday.
I know a lot of people don't like the "+/-" stat. As a stand-alone stat, I agree, although, analyzed further and over a longer period of time, I do think it can tell a lot.
Mark Howe is one of my favorite players and I was always impressed by his 85-86 season, which, along with the 82-83 season, he was robbed of the Norris Trophy.
Anyway, here is an analysis of "+/-" that I believe is relevant to this thread. My apologies for further hijacking this thread (and writing a novella).
I think Howe was the best player (not the most important) the Flyers have ever had. Over at a sports collectors forum, there was a guy trying to argue the defensive strengths of Phil Housley as part of a who was not in the HHOF thread just as Howe got elected. Eventually, it lead to the part I have quoted below. It was something I had always pondered, particularly in consideration of Howe's 85-86 season. I hope it makes sense and you enjoy it. It also confirmed my own observations from watching the players.
I took a deeper look into my initial analysis of play at EVEN strength. I have a bit of data but will only summarize the methodology and the results.
What I did was take the +/- data for the player and his team for that season (GF less PPGF for Net Goals For ["NGF"] and GA less PPGA for Net Goals Against ["NGA"] that provides net +/-). Consequently, you then have that data for when the player was and was not on the ice. NGF/NGA provides a scoring ratio for the team, player and team w/o the player. Winning teams will almost always have ratios over 1::1 (perhaps a team that has at least a 25+ differential in their special teams will be over .500) and losing teams below 1::1. Once I got that data, I kept both the raw spread of their on/off performance and the ratio of the on/off performance. Hopefully the examples below will present in a readable fashion. The expectation at EVEN strength is that a good player will have a higher NGF/NGA ratio than the team has when he is not on the ice. This would apply to a bad team as well. For example if a team gives up one goal for every 0.90 goals it scores then a really good player on that team may have a 0.93 ratio and the rest of the team a 0.88 ratio.
I looked at Howe from 79-80 through 87-88 (nine seasons), Langway from 82-83 through 88-89, Coffey and Gretzky while at Edmonton, Bourque's whole career and Orr from 67-68 through 74-75. Also Housley from start of career through Winnipeg.
Thus, looking at Booby Orr's line, in 1970-71 he was on the ice for 258 Boston goals, 79 were PP goals for a NGF of 179. He was on the ice for 85 goals against, 30 of them while shorthanded for a NGA of 55. His +/- was a record +124 (179-55). Boston scored a total of 399 goals, 80 of which were on the PP for a NGF of 319. The team had 207 GA, 53 of them shorthanded for a NGA of 154 and a team +/- of +165 (319-154). When Orr was not on the ice, the team had a NGF of 140 (319-179) and a NGA of 99 (154-55). At even strength, the Bruins outscored their opponents by 2.071::1 (319/154). When Orr was on the ice, they outscored their opponents 3.255::1 (179/55) and when he was not they outscored their opponents 1.414::1 (140/99). When Orr was on the ice at even strength, the Bruins were 1.84 goals better than when he was not (3.255-1.414) or 2.3x more productive (3.255/1.414).
Thoughts about even strength performance:
Coffey was as I expected - very slightly above the rest of the team some years and below in others. He looks good in the other metrics in that his play was directly, more than indirectly, responsible for goals (goals and assists). It doesn't hide the fact that his team often did better at outscoring an opponent at even strength when he was not on the ice.
Housley was similar to Coffey. In this evaluation, he only had two seasons that would rank with Howe's two worst (79-80 when he was a forward and 83-84). Of course, those two worst were really good seasons, though.
Bourque was amazingly consistent. Only at the end of his Boston tenure did the team perform better with him off the ice. His career spread was 0.373 goals. The nine years I looked at for Howe, his spread was 0.496.
Langway was up and down. Amazingly, in his Norris trophy year, the rest of the team very slightly outperformed him at even strength. However, the Caps were something like 87% on the PK, primarily due to Langway. Howe still should have won the Norris.
Orr was simply amazing. Of the group I looked at, other than Howe, he was the only player to have a ratio 2x the rest of the team, but he did it 4 times. His spread for the years looked at was 1.031 goals.
Gretzky was also amazing, although his numbers don't jump off the page like Orr's. I think this is because the stats I'm looking at favor defensemen (or at least stud defensemen) in that they typically have more Time on Ice (TOI), can influence the flow of play a bit more and +/- probably underweights ACTUAL points (although I believe to a lesser degree than GVT and PS overweight points). For example, in the 84-85 stats above, Gretzky was on the ice for 249 Edmonton goals. He had POINTS on 208 of THEM!!! (for comparison, 70-71 Orr had 139 points on the 258 goals scored when he was on the ice)
1967 TV guide. Philadelphia edition.
Where did these Flyers play and what league ? Thanks
@Goldenage said:
So the ND Flyers went to Philadelphia for the 67-68 season ?
Operating under the assumption that was a serious question, the answer would be "no."
There are plenty of good write-ups about that initial expansion and the stories for each team are typically very interesting.
Off the top of my head, I cannot speak about the other five teams, but in the year run-up to the inaugural season, the Philadelphia ownership team purchased the AHL Quebec Aces. Several of those players made the initial Flyers roster. When the Spectrum suffered wind damage that first season, they played at least one "home" game in Quebec.
@Cakes said:
Did this thread jump the shark again? With all due respect what the hell is going on? How did Captain Kirk and Spock wind up in this thread?
When a thread has run its course, it is appropriate to get a little silly.
😏
I am not good with figuring how to run special stats, but how does Wayne compare if you use just his Oilers career? Orr played 657 games in his career, Wayne had 696 in Edmonton . Ages line up pretty well also.
@Centauri said:
I am not good with figuring how to run special stats, but how does Wayne compare if you use just his Oilers career? Orr played 657 games in his career, Wayne had 696 in Edmonton . Ages line up pretty well also.
How many hall of famers did Wayne play with in Edmonton compared to Orr also.
@georgebailey2 said:
In relative terms, the NHL is trophy/award laden compared to the other sports.
As a Phillies fan, I will note that in 1980, Mike Schmidt won the MVP, WS MVP, Gold Glove, Silver Slugger and WS.
Schmidt competed against 11 other 3Bs to get that gold glove.
What other league has that ratio for an award ?
What other sports have trophies for being gentlemanly (Lady Byng) and perseverance/dedication (Masterton)?
Careerwise, Pronger was better than Desjardins, but, unfortunately, he only got to really play the one season for the Flyers.
Not a fan of those two trophies.
Only a fan of original six trophies.
Please answer my question.
What other league has a 12:1 ratio
for an award.
During the original six era, the Vezina technically only had 6 competitors (as did the Cup).
In Orr's rookie year, seven got votes. I wonder if there were 12 qualifying competitors.
Also, while most teams went with an everyday player, I am pretty sure the number of players at 3B who had 200+ at bats was probably closer to 20 than 12.
@georgebailey2 said:
In relative terms, the NHL is trophy/award laden compared to the other sports.
As a Phillies fan, I will note that in 1980, Mike Schmidt won the MVP, WS MVP, Gold Glove, Silver Slugger and WS.
Schmidt competed against 11 other 3Bs to get that gold glove.
What other league has that ratio for an award ?
What other sports have trophies for being gentlemanly (Lady Byng) and perseverance/dedication (Masterton)?
Careerwise, Pronger was better than Desjardins, but, unfortunately, he only got to really play the one season for the Flyers.
Not a fan of those two trophies.
Only a fan of original six trophies.
Please answer my question.
What other league has a 12:1 ratio
for an award.
During the original six era, the Vezina technically only had 6 competitors (as did the Cup).
In Orr's rookie year, seven got votes. I wonder if there were 12 qualifying competitors.
Also, while most teams went with an everyday player, I am pretty sure the number of players at 3B who had 200+ at bats was probably closer to 20 than 12.
Let me rephrase.
What current league has a 12:1 ratio for a trophy-award ?
@georgebailey2 said:
In relative terms, the NHL is trophy/award laden compared to the other sports.
As a Phillies fan, I will note that in 1980, Mike Schmidt won the MVP, WS MVP, Gold Glove, Silver Slugger and WS.
Schmidt competed against 11 other 3Bs to get that gold glove.
What other league has that ratio for an award ?
What other sports have trophies for being gentlemanly (Lady Byng) and perseverance/dedication (Masterton)?
Careerwise, Pronger was better than Desjardins, but, unfortunately, he only got to really play the one season for the Flyers.
Not a fan of those two trophies.
Only a fan of original six trophies.
Please answer my question.
What other league has a 12:1 ratio
for an award.
During the original six era, the Vezina technically only had 6 competitors (as did the Cup).
In Orr's rookie year, seven got votes. I wonder if there were 12 qualifying competitors.
Also, while most teams went with an everyday player, I am pretty sure the number of players at 3B who had 200+ at bats was probably closer to 20 than 12.
Let me rephrase.
What current league has a 12:1 ratio for a trophy-award ?
I have to disagree with that; if I were an NHL player, I'd be more proud to win a Lester B. Pearson (Ted Lindsay) trophy than I would be to win a Hart trophy, based on who gets to vote for each respective trophy.
@Centauri said:
I am not good with figuring how to run special stats, but how does Wayne compare if you use just his Oilers career? Orr played 657 games in his career, Wayne had 696 in Edmonton . Ages line up pretty well also.
How many hall of famers did Wayne play with in Edmonton compared to Orr also.
Since you asked:
NHL teammates of Orr who are in the HHOF (9 total):
Jacques Plante
Johnny Bucyk
Phil Esposito
Bernie Parent
Gerry Cheevers
Jean Ratelle
Brad Park
Tony Esposito
Stan Mikita
That's 7 Bruins and 2 Blackhawks
Edmonton teammates of Gretzky who are in the HHOF (6 total):
Mark Messier
Jari Kurri
Grant Fuhr
Paul Coffey
Glenn Anderson
Kevin Lowe
@Centauri said:
I am not good with figuring how to run special stats, but how does Wayne compare if you use just his Oilers career? Orr played 657 games in his career, Wayne had 696 in Edmonton . Ages line up pretty well also.
How many hall of famers did Wayne play with in Edmonton compared to Orr also.
Since you asked:
NHL teammates of Orr who are in the HHOF (9 total):
Jacques Plante
Johnny Bucyk
Phil Esposito
Bernie Parent
Gerry Cheevers
Jean Ratelle
Brad Park
Tony Esposito
Stan Mikita
That's 7 Bruins and 2 Blackhawks
Edmonton teammates of Gretzky who are in the HHOF (6 total):
Mark Messier
Jari Kurri
Grant Fuhr
Paul Coffey
Glenn Anderson
Kevin Lowe
If you added up the games he played with all of them it isn’t even close to Gretzky’s amount with his HOFamers.
Did you count Gretzky’s Ranger teammates ?
Why Orr’s Chicago and not Gretzky’s LA or NY or St. Louis ?
To try to "Apples to Apples" - see below ( or to balance - Live fast, die young, leave a beautiful corpse.)
@Goldenage said:
You understand that Bobby Orr has no defensive equal in points per game.
Not completely. If you look at Coffey during his EDM/PITT part of his career, he played 863 games, 1,109 points and 1.285 PPG, compared to Orr's 1.39 PPG over 657 games. Orr is about 8% better in PPG.
You understand he has no equal in plus minus per game.
Gretzky EDM 696 games, +553 +.7945/gm
Orr 657 games, +582 +.8858/gm
**
**While Orr has the advantage, defensemen, particularly 1st pair studs on good teams, usually do better than forwards as they are on the ice an additional 6 to 10 minutes per game. Frankly, I was surprised it was that close.
Gretzky and Lemieux are equal forwards in points per game.
Hasek and Dryden are equal in save percentage per game.
Bobby Orr has no equal in hockey per game.
All the other hockey greats have equals.
Orr is the hockey GOAT.
No one has ever matched his greatness.
There is no doubt that Orr is in the discussion.
But Gretzky was.......well, he was Gretzky.
There's a quote in The Natural by the Max Mercy character that always makes me think of Gretzky:
"Home runs, triples, singles....Anything he wants to hit, he hits. I've never seen anything like it. It's incredible! Anything he wants to do, he does!"
I really think if Gretzky hadn't missed 6 games in 83-84, he may have had a flourish like games 35-39 in 1981, where he scored 15 goals in 5 games to get to 50 in 39, and finished with 100 goals.
One last thing. This thread makes me admire what Ovechkin has been able to do over an extended period of time and in an era where scoring is tougher to come by.
Look, no one here, and probably no one anywhere, disputes that Orr was great. Full stop. I, personally, have a hard time believing that the greatest player of all time contributed far less value after his 27th birthday than, to pick a recent Bruins defenseman almost at random, John Moore.
By the way, can we agree that "save percentage per game" is the most worthless stat ever used for comparison purposes on this site, vastly worse than fielding percentage in baseball? I have absolutely no idea who the top players are in that stat, but Dryden is far "better" than Hasek .00232 to .00125. No idea what that purports to show, though.
If I had to guess, I'd guess the all-time leader is someone who has a save percentage between .880 and .900 who played just over the minimum number of games to qualify for the leaderboard.
@georgebailey2 said:
To try to "Apples to Apples" - see below ( or to balance - Live fast, die young, leave a beautiful corpse.)
@Goldenage said:
You understand that Bobby Orr has no defensive equal in points per game.
Not completely. If you look at Coffey during his EDM/PITT part of his career, he played 863 games, 1,109 points and 1.285 PPG, compared to Orr's 1.39 PPG over 657 games. Orr is about 8% better in PPG.
You understand he has no equal in plus minus per game.
Gretzky EDM 696 games, +553 +.7945/gm
Orr 657 games, +582 +.8858/gm
**
**While Orr has the advantage, defensemen, particularly 1st pair studs on good teams, usually do better than forwards as they are on the ice an additional 6 to 10 minutes per game. Frankly, I was surprised it was that close.
Gretzky and Lemieux are equal forwards in points per game.
Hasek and Dryden are equal in save percentage per game.
Bobby Orr has no equal in hockey per game.
All the other hockey greats have equals.
Orr is the hockey GOAT.
No one has ever matched his greatness.
There is no doubt that Orr is in the discussion.
But Gretzky was.......well, he was Gretzky.
There's a quote in The Natural by the Max Mercy character that always makes me think of Gretzky:
"Home runs, triples, singles....Anything he wants to hit, he hits. I've never seen anything like it. It's incredible! Anything he wants to do, he does!"
I really think if Gretzky hadn't missed 6 games in 83-84, he may have had a flourish like games 35-39 in 1981, where he scored 15 goals in 5 games to get to 50 in 39, and finished with 100 goals.
One last thing. This thread makes me admire what Ovechkin has been able to do over an extended period of time and in an era where scoring is tougher to come by.
Good heavens.
You’re actually going to with a straight face compare only Coffeys offensive production playing with Gretzky and Lemieux to Bobby Orr ?
Lol
Then do me a favor. Compare his offensive production without them per game to Bobby Orr.
If Orr had 99&66 he’d average 2+ points per game. Easily
By the way, can we agree that "save percentage per game" is the most worthless stat ever used for comparison purposes on this site, vastly worse than fielding percentage in baseball? I have absolutely no idea who the top players are in that stat, but Dryden is far "better" than Hasek .00232 to .00125. No idea what that purports to show, though.
No. While I agree save percentage is not a perfect stat, it is far, far better than +/-. However, I will say that a hockey team with several good/smart defenseman will limit the number of tough saves a goalie has to make, greatly influencing his save percentage.
Sometimes the eye test is just as valuable, as long as you can put bias aside. Many here can't/won't.
Orr seems to me to be the single greatest/dominant player of all time, but obviously didn't have a long enough career to put up great totals.
I saw a lot of Gretzky and Lemieux and they were both amazing.
Gordy Howe should be solidly in the hockey discussion. He was a much more complete player than Mario and especially Wayne.
At the age of 40. Gordy scored 103 points and he was top 10 in scoring 23 times, including 12 times in the top 3 and 20 times in the top 5.
If you just look at goals, Howe had 19 seasons in the top 10, Mario 11 and Wayne 10. Assists is where Gretzky is the best of all time. I never saw him make a bad pass.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Centauri said:
I am not good with figuring how to run special stats, but how does Wayne compare if you use just his Oilers career? Orr played 657 games in his career, Wayne had 696 in Edmonton . Ages line up pretty well also.
How many hall of famers did Wayne play with in Edmonton compared to Orr also.
Since you asked:
NHL teammates of Orr who are in the HHOF (9 total):
Jacques Plante
Johnny Bucyk
Phil Esposito
Bernie Parent
Gerry Cheevers
Jean Ratelle
Brad Park
Tony Esposito
Stan Mikita
That's 7 Bruins and 2 Blackhawks
Edmonton teammates of Gretzky who are in the HHOF (6 total):
Mark Messier
Jari Kurri
Grant Fuhr
Paul Coffey
Glenn Anderson
Kevin Lowe
If you added up the games he played with all of them it isn’t even close to Gretzky’s amount with his HOFamers.
Did you count Gretzky’s Ranger teammates ?
Why Orr’s Chicago and not Gretzky’s LA or NY or St. Louis ?
😆
I only counted Edmonton teammates because your question specifically asked for that data point.
I am guessing you asked specifically about his Edmonton teammates in response to other point someone else made asking about a comparison between Gretzky's Edmonton years vs. Orr's career since they were over relatively similar total number of games played and ages of the player.
@Goldenage said:
Orr 26 games with Chicago. Lol
20 games with Bernie. Lol
Plante, Park, and Ratelle a cup of coffee.
Esposito , Cheevers, and Bucyk are
the only 3 in my book. The rest are all less than 1/2 to 1/3rd of a season.
Lol
Edmonton w/ Gretzky was one less HHOF than Boston w/ Orr, but Gretzky's were concurrent with each other, while not all of Orr's were. However, Gretzky's non-HHOF Edmonton teammates were not as good as Orr's non-HHOF Boston teammates. The non-HHOF Bruins put up far better stats than the non-HHOF Oilers. I had never thought about comparing just Edmonton Gretzky with just Boston Orr before someone here brought it up. But doing so, it is very clear that Gretzky's case is not one of a career compiler, and he did not have as dramatic of a teammate advantage as some would assume as compared with the 60's/70's Bruins.
Comments
Bobby is a legend in Boston.
Bruins have never lost money. Check out the link,
https://www.statista.com/statistics/194762/nhl-franchise-value-of-the-boston-bruins-since-2006/
Would not bet on them being profitable when they were close to last in the NHL in attendance.
Check out these pics from this program. Check out the gloves !!
Wayne Gretzky’s kids wore Bobby Orr pajamas.
Bobby Orr stands still faster than anyone else can skate.
Bobby Orr once played a game of Connect Four in the locker room and won in three moves.
Bobby Orr tied his skates with his feet.
Bobby Orr was so fast it took only 12 minutes to have a 20 minute period.
Bobby Orr’s cowboy boots were made from real cowboys.
Covid is double vaccinated against Bobby Orr.
Be very careful. And tread lightly. We can all have fun talking sports around here but now I’m worried for you and about you. Some things you don’t do, man. I had a buddy once just like you who thought it would be cool to reassign a few jokes. “Who’s going to know?”, he said. After the funeral, the police officer showed me my buddy’s body cam footage from his last night out in a bar.
Ever.
I’m definitely breaking some statutes and probably some laws but I’m sharing the aforementioned footage here for the first time, because I like you, and as a general reminder and public service announcement:
Never forget…
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Bobby Orr was so fast he could make minute rice in 30 seconds.
Bobby Orr was so fast his ab workouts only took 7 minutes.
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You’re living dangerously. Here’s a quick natural history lesson:
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Ken Dryden and Carey Price.
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Love the Chuck stuff! They actually make a calendar with the quotes each day.
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There is a very strong, and not unreasonable, argument for Bobby Orr as the GOAT.
I am old enough to have seen Orr play since 1971 when I went to my first Flyers' game. I have watched (and re-watched) a ton of hockey as I bleed orange and black. Whether it is the 1970 All-Star Game in St. Louis (Orr was MVP in a game the players actually cared about), the 72 Summit Series (IMHO the most dramatic sporting event ever - you couldn't script it better), the 1987 Rendezvous, 87 Canada Cup, etc.
Orr's skating was significantly better than his peers and he used that to be the most dominant defenseman to ever play.
Lemieux was probably the 2nd most physically gifted player ever. A rare combination of size and skill. (Too bad Lindros could never have a healthy season)
Gretzky didn't stand out like that. His gift was his anticipation and awareness of everyone on the ice (Professor X vs Wolverine). It was as though he had a coach in the press-box talking to him through an ear piece.
So, I have put a lot of thought into this over the years: The impact of expansion, the growth of the talent pool (overall population growth, influx of Europeans, development of USA Hockey, etc), the increase in the size of players, the implementation of more advanced coaching systems, developments in training and technique, the improvements in equipment, etc.
That said, personally, I will take Wayne Gretzky seven days a week and twice on Sunday.
I know a lot of people don't like the "+/-" stat. As a stand-alone stat, I agree, although, analyzed further and over a longer period of time, I do think it can tell a lot.
Mark Howe is one of my favorite players and I was always impressed by his 85-86 season, which, along with the 82-83 season, he was robbed of the Norris Trophy.
Anyway, here is an analysis of "+/-" that I believe is relevant to this thread. My apologies for further hijacking this thread (and writing a novella).
I think Howe was the best player (not the most important) the Flyers have ever had. Over at a sports collectors forum, there was a guy trying to argue the defensive strengths of Phil Housley as part of a who was not in the HHOF thread just as Howe got elected. Eventually, it lead to the part I have quoted below. It was something I had always pondered, particularly in consideration of Howe's 85-86 season. I hope it makes sense and you enjoy it. It also confirmed my own observations from watching the players.
I took a deeper look into my initial analysis of play at EVEN strength. I have a bit of data but will only summarize the methodology and the results.
What I did was take the +/- data for the player and his team for that season (GF less PPGF for Net Goals For ["NGF"] and GA less PPGA for Net Goals Against ["NGA"] that provides net +/-). Consequently, you then have that data for when the player was and was not on the ice. NGF/NGA provides a scoring ratio for the team, player and team w/o the player. Winning teams will almost always have ratios over 1::1 (perhaps a team that has at least a 25+ differential in their special teams will be over .500) and losing teams below 1::1. Once I got that data, I kept both the raw spread of their on/off performance and the ratio of the on/off performance. Hopefully the examples below will present in a readable fashion. The expectation at EVEN strength is that a good player will have a higher NGF/NGA ratio than the team has when he is not on the ice. This would apply to a bad team as well. For example if a team gives up one goal for every 0.90 goals it scores then a really good player on that team may have a 0.93 ratio and the rest of the team a 0.88 ratio.
Year/Team/Player Player GF/PPGF/NGF GA/PPGA/NGA +/- Team GF/PPGF/NGF GA/PPGA/NGA +/- W/O NGF/NGA NGF/NGA Ratio Team Player On/Off Spread % Spread
85-86/Flyers/Howe 188/46/142 93/36/57 +85 335/91/244 241/71/170 +74 102/113 1.435/ 2.491/0.902 1.589 2.76
88-89/Buff/Housley 148/65/83 92/15/77 +15 291/78/213 299/86/213 +0 130/136 1.000/ 1.078/0.956 0.122 1.13
86-87/Bos/Bourque 168/59/109 98/33/65 +44 301/65/236 276/60/216 +20 127/151 1.093/ 1.677/0.841 0.836 1.99
70-71/Bos/Orr 258/79/179 85/30/55 +124 399/80/319 207/53/154 +165 140/99 2.071/ 3.255/1.414 1.840 2.30
84-85/Edm/Gretzky 249/61/188 127/37/90 +98 401/74/327 298/76/222 +105 139/132 1.473/ 2.089/1.053 1.036 1.984
I looked at Howe from 79-80 through 87-88 (nine seasons), Langway from 82-83 through 88-89, Coffey and Gretzky while at Edmonton, Bourque's whole career and Orr from 67-68 through 74-75. Also Housley from start of career through Winnipeg.
Thus, looking at Booby Orr's line, in 1970-71 he was on the ice for 258 Boston goals, 79 were PP goals for a NGF of 179. He was on the ice for 85 goals against, 30 of them while shorthanded for a NGA of 55. His +/- was a record +124 (179-55). Boston scored a total of 399 goals, 80 of which were on the PP for a NGF of 319. The team had 207 GA, 53 of them shorthanded for a NGA of 154 and a team +/- of +165 (319-154). When Orr was not on the ice, the team had a NGF of 140 (319-179) and a NGA of 99 (154-55). At even strength, the Bruins outscored their opponents by 2.071::1 (319/154). When Orr was on the ice, they outscored their opponents 3.255::1 (179/55) and when he was not they outscored their opponents 1.414::1 (140/99). When Orr was on the ice at even strength, the Bruins were 1.84 goals better than when he was not (3.255-1.414) or 2.3x more productive (3.255/1.414).
Thoughts about even strength performance:
Coffey was as I expected - very slightly above the rest of the team some years and below in others. He looks good in the other metrics in that his play was directly, more than indirectly, responsible for goals (goals and assists). It doesn't hide the fact that his team often did better at outscoring an opponent at even strength when he was not on the ice.
Housley was similar to Coffey. In this evaluation, he only had two seasons that would rank with Howe's two worst (79-80 when he was a forward and 83-84). Of course, those two worst were really good seasons, though.
Bourque was amazingly consistent. Only at the end of his Boston tenure did the team perform better with him off the ice. His career spread was 0.373 goals. The nine years I looked at for Howe, his spread was 0.496.
Langway was up and down. Amazingly, in his Norris trophy year, the rest of the team very slightly outperformed him at even strength. However, the Caps were something like 87% on the PK, primarily due to Langway. Howe still should have won the Norris.
Orr was simply amazing. Of the group I looked at, other than Howe, he was the only player to have a ratio 2x the rest of the team, but he did it 4 times. His spread for the years looked at was 1.031 goals.
Gretzky was also amazing, although his numbers don't jump off the page like Orr's. I think this is because the stats I'm looking at favor defensemen (or at least stud defensemen) in that they typically have more Time on Ice (TOI), can influence the flow of play a bit more and +/- probably underweights ACTUAL points (although I believe to a lesser degree than GVT and PS overweight points). For example, in the 84-85 stats above, Gretzky was on the ice for 249 Edmonton goals. He had POINTS on 208 of THEM!!! (for comparison, 70-71 Orr had 139 points on the 258 goals scored when he was on the ice)
To answer the question posed in the OP:
Yes. Wayne Gretzky.
1985
-Art Ross
-Hart
-Lester B. Pearson
-Conn Smythe
-Stanley Cup
Edit to add, in 1985, Gretzky also won:
NHL Plus-Minus Award (Emery Edge trophy)
Chrysler-Dodge/NHL Performer of the Year
Lou Marsh trophy (best Canadian athlete)
Lionel Conacher Award (best Canadian Male athlete)
All-NHL 1st Team All-Star
In 1987 Wayne Gretzky won:
Hart
Art Ross
Lester B. Pearson
NHL Plus-Minus Award (Emery Edge trophy)
Stanley Cup
Canada Cup
Chrysler-Dodge/NHL Performer of the Year
Rende-vous '87 NHL MVP
All-NHL 1st Team All-Star
In 1984 Wayne Gretzky won:
Hart
Art Ross
Lester B. Pearson
NHL Plus-Minus Award (Emery Edge trophy)
Stanley Cup
Canada Cup
All-NHL 1st Team All-Star
1967 TV guide. Philadelphia edition.
Where did these Flyers play and what league ? Thanks
This was the end of the 66-67 season when the NHL was still original six.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_Dixie_Flyers
Nashville Dixie Flyers vs. Jacksonville Rockets
So the ND Flyers went to Philadelphia for the 67-68 season ?
Operating under the assumption that was a serious question, the answer would be "no."
There are plenty of good write-ups about that initial expansion and the stories for each team are typically very interesting.
Off the top of my head, I cannot speak about the other five teams, but in the year run-up to the inaugural season, the Philadelphia ownership team purchased the AHL Quebec Aces. Several of those players made the initial Flyers roster. When the Spectrum suffered wind damage that first season, they played at least one "home" game in Quebec.
Did this thread jump the shark again? With all due respect what the hell is going on? How did Captain Kirk and Spock wind up in this thread?
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When a thread has run its course, it is appropriate to get a little silly.
😏
In relative terms, the NHL is trophy/award laden compared to the other sports.
As a Phillies fan, I will note that in 1980, Mike Schmidt won the MVP, WS MVP, Gold Glove, Silver Slugger and WS.
Mike Schmidt is underrated. So is Gretzky. He should be in the HOF 4X.
Schmidt competed against 11 other 3Bs to get that gold glove.
What other league has that ratio for an award ?
Howe and Desjardins the best two Flyer D men ever IMO
What does it mean when this thread has more comments then the greatest card ever auctioned thread
It means the card has left people speechless.
It also means you have posted a lot in this thread about a hockey player with a bad haircut who was really good when there were only two teams.
😁
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What other sports have trophies for being gentlemanly (Lady Byng) and perseverance/dedication (Masterton)?
Careerwise, Pronger was better than Desjardins, but, unfortunately, he only got to really play the one season for the Flyers.
I am not good with figuring how to run special stats, but how does Wayne compare if you use just his Oilers career? Orr played 657 games in his career, Wayne had 696 in Edmonton . Ages line up pretty well also.
How many hall of famers did Wayne play with in Edmonton compared to Orr also.
Not a fan of those two trophies.
Only a fan of original six trophies.
Please answer my question.
What other league has a 12:1 ratio
for an award.
During the original six era, the Vezina technically only had 6 competitors (as did the Cup).
In Orr's rookie year, seven got votes. I wonder if there were 12 qualifying competitors.
Also, while most teams went with an everyday player, I am pretty sure the number of players at 3B who had 200+ at bats was probably closer to 20 than 12.
Let me rephrase.
What current league has a 12:1 ratio for a trophy-award ?
Current? None.
I have to disagree with that; if I were an NHL player, I'd be more proud to win a Lester B. Pearson (Ted Lindsay) trophy than I would be to win a Hart trophy, based on who gets to vote for each respective trophy.
Since you asked:
NHL teammates of Orr who are in the HHOF (9 total):
Jacques Plante
Johnny Bucyk
Phil Esposito
Bernie Parent
Gerry Cheevers
Jean Ratelle
Brad Park
Tony Esposito
Stan Mikita
That's 7 Bruins and 2 Blackhawks
Edmonton teammates of Gretzky who are in the HHOF (6 total):
Mark Messier
Jari Kurri
Grant Fuhr
Paul Coffey
Glenn Anderson
Kevin Lowe
If you added up the games he played with all of them it isn’t even close to Gretzky’s amount with his HOFamers.
Did you count Gretzky’s Ranger teammates ?
Why Orr’s Chicago and not Gretzky’s LA or NY or St. Louis ?
😆
You understand that Bobby Orr has no defensive equal in points per game.
You understand he has no equal in plus minus per game.
Gretzky and Lemieux are equal forwards in points per game.
Bossy has an equal in goals per game.
Hasek and Dryden are equal in save percentage per game.
Bobby Orr has no equal in hockey per game.
All the other hockey greats have equals.
Orr is the hockey GOAT.
No one has ever matched his greatness.
Orr 26 games with Chicago. Lol
20 games with Bernie. Lol
Plante, Park, and Ratelle a cup of coffee.
Esposito , Cheevers, and Bucyk are
the only 3 in my book. The rest are all less than 1/2 to 1/3rd of a season.
Lol
Per game the NHL has no equal for him, ever in it’s history. All the other NHL greats have equals per game.. GOAT
To try to "Apples to Apples" - see below ( or to balance - Live fast, die young, leave a beautiful corpse.)
Not completely. If you look at Coffey during his EDM/PITT part of his career, he played 863 games, 1,109 points and 1.285 PPG, compared to Orr's 1.39 PPG over 657 games. Orr is about 8% better in PPG.
Gretzky EDM 696 games, +553 +.7945/gm
Orr 657 games, +582 +.8858/gm
**
**While Orr has the advantage, defensemen, particularly 1st pair studs on good teams, usually do better than forwards as they are on the ice an additional 6 to 10 minutes per game. Frankly, I was surprised it was that close.
Gretzky EDM/LA 1,235 GP, 2,587 points, 2.09 ppg
Lemieux 915 GP, 1,723 points, 1.88 ppg - Gretzky 11% better
Top 5 ppg seasons:
Gretzky 394 GP, 1,036 points 2.629 ppg
Lemieux 342 GP 811 points, 2.37 ppg - Gretzky 11% better
Gretzky EDM 696 GP, 583 goals, 0.84 gpg
Bossy 752 GP, 573 goals, 0.76 gpg - Gretzky 11% better
There is no doubt that Orr is in the discussion.
But Gretzky was.......well, he was Gretzky.
There's a quote in The Natural by the Max Mercy character that always makes me think of Gretzky:
"Home runs, triples, singles....Anything he wants to hit, he hits. I've never seen anything like it. It's incredible! Anything he wants to do, he does!"
I really think if Gretzky hadn't missed 6 games in 83-84, he may have had a flourish like games 35-39 in 1981, where he scored 15 goals in 5 games to get to 50 in 39, and finished with 100 goals.
One last thing. This thread makes me admire what Ovechkin has been able to do over an extended period of time and in an era where scoring is tougher to come by.
Look, no one here, and probably no one anywhere, disputes that Orr was great. Full stop. I, personally, have a hard time believing that the greatest player of all time contributed far less value after his 27th birthday than, to pick a recent Bruins defenseman almost at random, John Moore.
By the way, can we agree that "save percentage per game" is the most worthless stat ever used for comparison purposes on this site, vastly worse than fielding percentage in baseball? I have absolutely no idea who the top players are in that stat, but Dryden is far "better" than Hasek .00232 to .00125. No idea what that purports to show, though.
If I had to guess, I'd guess the all-time leader is someone who has a save percentage between .880 and .900 who played just over the minimum number of games to qualify for the leaderboard.
Good heavens.
You’re actually going to with a straight face compare only Coffeys offensive production playing with Gretzky and Lemieux to Bobby Orr ?
Lol
Then do me a favor. Compare his offensive production without them per game to Bobby Orr.
If Orr had 99&66 he’d average 2+ points per game. Easily
Will wait for Coffeys numbers.
What’s amazing is that Orr is still better than Coffey in ppg even when Coffey had 66&99.
😄
No. While I agree save percentage is not a perfect stat, it is far, far better than +/-. However, I will say that a hockey team with several good/smart defenseman will limit the number of tough saves a goalie has to make, greatly influencing his save percentage.
Sometimes the eye test is just as valuable, as long as you can put bias aside. Many here can't/won't.
Orr seems to me to be the single greatest/dominant player of all time, but obviously didn't have a long enough career to put up great totals.
I saw a lot of Gretzky and Lemieux and they were both amazing.
Gordy Howe should be solidly in the hockey discussion. He was a much more complete player than Mario and especially Wayne.
At the age of 40. Gordy scored 103 points and he was top 10 in scoring 23 times, including 12 times in the top 3 and 20 times in the top 5.
If you just look at goals, Howe had 19 seasons in the top 10, Mario 11 and Wayne 10. Assists is where Gretzky is the best of all time. I never saw him make a bad pass.
I only counted Edmonton teammates because your question specifically asked for that data point.
I am guessing you asked specifically about his Edmonton teammates in response to other point someone else made asking about a comparison between Gretzky's Edmonton years vs. Orr's career since they were over relatively similar total number of games played and ages of the player.
Edmonton w/ Gretzky was one less HHOF than Boston w/ Orr, but Gretzky's were concurrent with each other, while not all of Orr's were. However, Gretzky's non-HHOF Edmonton teammates were not as good as Orr's non-HHOF Boston teammates. The non-HHOF Bruins put up far better stats than the non-HHOF Oilers. I had never thought about comparing just Edmonton Gretzky with just Boston Orr before someone here brought it up. But doing so, it is very clear that Gretzky's case is not one of a career compiler, and he did not have as dramatic of a teammate advantage as some would assume as compared with the 60's/70's Bruins.
The thread should have been titled "Bobby Orr is the Greatest and Anything you say is Wrong!"
Love how people love to knock others they disagree with.
Stay classy my friend
No one here is losing sleep over this.
😀
Golden, you had to know you would come under fire when early on when you replied to stwainfan:
****@stwainfan said:
Was he better than Gretsky?
Per game yes. Easily. But his career was cut short.
Thank you for starting the thread I have learned a lot about old school hockey. i didn't start watching until the early 80's.
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