Point shares is silly.
Dryden and Hasek are easily the GOAT goalies.
Orr easily the GOAT defenseman.
Gretzky and Howe the GOAT forwards.
@brad31 said:
I think Glenn Hall and Patrick Roy are in the conversation for GOAT goalies as is Tretiak.
It's quite confusing how Brodeur doesn't enter in to either of these two comments, he's quite clearly the GOAT of NHL goalies...almost 150 more wins than second place Roy, shutout leader, games played leader, single handedly turned a franchise into a perennial championship contender, and I guess 2nd all time in goaltender points is noteworthy too.
His career save percentage is terrible. He had great teams and great defense. Overrated
Brodeur was overrated? So by your measure of save % alone, Roy and Fleury were overrated as well?
Point shares is silly.
Dryden and Hasek are easily the GOAT goalies.
Orr easily the GOAT defenseman.
Gretzky and Howe the GOAT forwards.
@brad31 said:
I think Glenn Hall and Patrick Roy are in the conversation for GOAT goalies as is Tretiak.
It's quite confusing how Brodeur doesn't enter in to either of these two comments, he's quite clearly the GOAT of NHL goalies...almost 150 more wins than second place Roy, shutout leader, games played leader, single handedly turned a franchise into a perennial championship contender, and I guess 2nd all time in goaltender points is noteworthy too.
His career save percentage is terrible. He had great teams and great defense. Overrated
Brodeur was overrated? So by your measure of save % alone, Roy and Fleury were overrated as well?
Brodeur faced 20 shots a game in Lemaires boring trap system.
Martins save percentage speaks for itself, as does Roy.
Want to see great goaltending?
Watch Tim Thomas highlights from the 2011 postseason. Greatest goaltending display ever in the history of the NHL and a .967 save percentage to prove it. Unequalled. He was better than both of those guys, but had a short career. He stopped the puck at a higher rate. Great goalie.
Point shares is silly.
Dryden and Hasek are easily the GOAT goalies.
Orr easily the GOAT defenseman.
Gretzky and Howe the GOAT forwards.
@brad31 said:
I think Glenn Hall and Patrick Roy are in the conversation for GOAT goalies as is Tretiak.
It's quite confusing how Brodeur doesn't enter in to either of these two comments, he's quite clearly the GOAT of NHL goalies...almost 150 more wins than second place Roy, shutout leader, games played leader, single handedly turned a franchise into a perennial championship contender, and I guess 2nd all time in goaltender points is noteworthy too.
His career save percentage is terrible. He had great teams and great defense. Overrated
Brodeur was overrated? So by your measure of save % alone, Roy and Fleury were overrated as well?
Brodeur faced 20 shots a game in Lemaires boring trap system.
Martins save percentage speaks for itself, as does Roy.
Want to see great goaltending?
Watch Tim Thomas highlights from the 2011 postseason. Greatest goaltending ever. .967 save percentage. Unequalled. He was better than both of those guys, but had a short career. He stopped the puck at a higher rate. Great goalie.
Not arguing that any of the goalies you mentioned are the best ever to play the game, but to speak so lowly of Brodeur and Roy is weird in a conversation about GOAT goalies, but carry on
Point shares is silly.
Dryden and Hasek are easily the GOAT goalies.
Orr easily the GOAT defenseman.
Gretzky and Howe the GOAT forwards.
@brad31 said:
I think Glenn Hall and Patrick Roy are in the conversation for GOAT goalies as is Tretiak.
It's quite confusing how Brodeur doesn't enter in to either of these two comments, he's quite clearly the GOAT of NHL goalies...almost 150 more wins than second place Roy, shutout leader, games played leader, single handedly turned a franchise into a perennial championship contender, and I guess 2nd all time in goaltender points is noteworthy too.
His career save percentage is terrible. He had great teams and great defense. Overrated
Brodeur was overrated? So by your measure of save % alone, Roy and Fleury were overrated as well?
Brodeur faced 20 shots a game in Lemaires boring trap system.
Martins save percentage speaks for itself, as does Roy.
Want to see great goaltending?
Watch Tim Thomas highlights from the 2011 postseason. Greatest goaltending ever. .967 save percentage. Unequalled. He was better than both of those guys, but had a short career. He stopped the puck at a higher rate. Great goalie.
Not arguing that any of the goalies you mentioned are the best ever to play the game, but to speak so lowly of Brodeur and Roy is weird in a conversation about GOAT goalies, but carry on
People thought Terry Bradshaw was great too. Roy and Brodeur are in Bradshaw territory.
It is starting to feel like this thread was designed to argue at how good Orr was instead of talking about other great seasons or achievements (which was what I thought the intent was). The title should be Orr is the greatest player ever in any sport and has 5 trophies to prove it. Prove me wrong!
The Hockey News re-did their Top 75 players of All-Time and had 1) Gretzky 2) Orr 3) Lemieux and 4) Howe.
To use a rate stay comparing a player who played 11 years (two of which he barely played) with a player who played 19 seasons is silly. If you take Gretzky’s best 9 year stretch it is .82. Orr as a Blackhawk (aged 28-30) he was .30. When Gretzky was the same age he was a .39.
To say there is no argument for Gretzky is just plain ignorant.
NCAA champion 1956
UPI College Player of the Year 1956
Helms Player of the Year 1956
Consensus first-team All-American 1956
WCC Player of the Year 1956
First-team All-WCC 1956
Olympic Gold Medal 1956
The question asked for awards in professional leagues, not collegiate.
No, it didn’t.
But since it is a thread you started, I think that must nave been what you meant it to be so I’ll play along. 😉
We need a both league batting champ, HR leader, BA, league MVP, WS champ, and WS mvp to compare it to what Bobby Orr did.
Mickey Mantle - 1956
In perhaps the best single season any baseball player ever had offensively, Mickey won the Major League Triple Crown, exactly as described above: his batting average, home run and RBI totals led not just the AL but all of baseball. That year, he won AL MVP, the Yankees won the World Series (full disclosure, Don Larsen won WS MVP, what with his having thrown a perfect game), was Sporting News’ MLB player of the year and also won the Hickock Belt, awarded to the best athlete of the year. The Associated Press and the Sporting News also named Mickey Mantle the athlete of the year in 1956.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@brad31 said:
It is starting to feel like this thread was designed to argue at how good Orr was instead of talking about other great seasons or achievements (which was what I thought the intent was). The title should be Orr is the greatest player ever in any sport and has 5 trophies to prove it. Prove me wrong!
The Hockey News re-did their Top 75 players of All-Time and had 1) Gretzky 2) Orr 3) Lemieux and 4) Howe.
To use a rate stay comparing a player who played 11 years (two of which he barely played) with a player who played 19 seasons is silly. If you take Gretzky’s best 9 year stretch it is .82. Orr as a Blackhawk (aged 28-30) he was .30. When Gretzky was the same age he was a .39.
To say there is no argument for Gretzky is just plain ignorant.
I’m starting to feel that people who joined this thread just want to argue instead of answer the question.
Gretzky had a long career, so he gets the nod from some others. Per game though he was inferior to Bobby’s dominance.
I’m starting to feel that people who joined this thread just want to argue instead of answer the question.
>
In all fairness you are throwing around terms like "easily" and "not even close" in a valid debate about greatness, so yes, people on the internet will argue
@brad31 said:
It is starting to feel like this thread was designed to argue at how good Orr was instead of talking about other great seasons or achievements (which was what I thought the intent was). The title should be Orr is the greatest player ever in any sport and has 5 trophies to prove it. Prove me wrong!
The Hockey News re-did their Top 75 players of All-Time and had 1) Gretzky 2) Orr 3) Lemieux and 4) Howe.
To use a rate stay comparing a player who played 11 years (two of which he barely played) with a player who played 19 seasons is silly. If you take Gretzky’s best 9 year stretch it is .82. Orr as a Blackhawk (aged 28-30) he was .30. When Gretzky was the same age he was a .39.
To say there is no argument for Gretzky is just plain ignorant.
I’m starting to feel that people who joined this thread just want to argue instead of answer the question.
Gretzky had a long career, so he gets the nod from some others. Per game though he was inferior to Bobby’s dominance.
I came in and answered your exact question showing five trophies for Yaz and you disparaged his accomplishments. Others have answered it with Jordan, Messi, etc.
NCAA champion 1956
UPI College Player of the Year 1956
Helms Player of the Year 1956
Consensus first-team All-American 1956
WCC Player of the Year 1956
First-team All-WCC 1956
Olympic Gold Medal 1956
The question asked for awards in professional leagues, not collegiate.
No, it didn’t.
But since it is a thread you started, I think that must nave been what you meant it to be so I’ll play along. 😉
We need a both league batting champ, HR leader, BA, league MVP, WS champ, and WS mvp to compare it to what Bobby Orr did.
Mickey Mantle - 1956
In perhaps the best single season any baseball player ever had offensively, Mickey won the Major League Triple Crown, exactly as described above: his batting average, home run and RBI totals led not just the AL but all of baseball. That year, he won AL MVP, the Yankees won the World Series (full disclosure, Don Larsen won WS MVP, what with his having thrown a perfect game), was Sporting News’ MLB player of the year and also won the Hickock Belt, awarded to the best athlete of the year. The Associated Press and the Sporting News also named Mickey Mantle the athlete of the year in 1956.
Thank you WP for being one to answer the question.
You’re right. I failed to mention professional. I meant pros.
I’m starting to feel that people who joined this thread just want to argue instead of answer the question.
>
In all fairness you are throwing around terms like "easily" and "not even close" in a valid debate about greatness, so yes, people on the internet will argue
In all fairness I said how much I love Gretzky and Lemieux.
If you saw Orr you’d understand why I say what I say.
Comparing Orr’s plus minus to other greats is like comparing MJ at 33 ppg to Wilts 42 plus 22 rebounds.
@brad31 said:
It is starting to feel like this thread was designed to argue at how good Orr was instead of talking about other great seasons or achievements (which was what I thought the intent was). The title should be Orr is the greatest player ever in any sport and has 5 trophies to prove it. Prove me wrong!
The Hockey News re-did their Top 75 players of All-Time and had 1) Gretzky 2) Orr 3) Lemieux and 4) Howe.
To use a rate stay comparing a player who played 11 years (two of which he barely played) with a player who played 19 seasons is silly. If you take Gretzky’s best 9 year stretch it is .82. Orr as a Blackhawk (aged 28-30) he was .30. When Gretzky was the same age he was a .39.
To say there is no argument for Gretzky is just plain ignorant.
I’m starting to feel that people who joined this thread just want to argue instead of answer the question.
Gretzky had a long career, so he gets the nod from some others. Per game though he was inferior to Bobby’s dominance.
I came in and answered your exact question showing five trophies for Yaz and you disparaged his accomplishments. Others have answered it with Jordan, Messi, etc.
Sorry. Others here know I feel MLB gives out trophies too easily, and to both leagues instead of one.
NCAA champion 1956
UPI College Player of the Year 1956
Helms Player of the Year 1956
Consensus first-team All-American 1956
WCC Player of the Year 1956
First-team All-WCC 1956
Olympic Gold Medal 1956
The question asked for awards in professional leagues, not collegiate.
No, it didn’t.
But since it is a thread you started, I think that must nave been what you meant it to be so I’ll play along. 😉
We need a both league batting champ, HR leader, BA, league MVP, WS champ, and WS mvp to compare it to what Bobby Orr did.
Mickey Mantle - 1956
In perhaps the best single season any baseball player ever had offensively, Mickey won the Major League Triple Crown, exactly as described above: his batting average, home run and RBI totals led not just the AL but all of baseball. That year, he won AL MVP, the Yankees won the World Series (full disclosure, Don Larsen won WS MVP, what with his having thrown a perfect game), was Sporting News’ MLB player of the year and also won the Hickock Belt, awarded to the best athlete of the year. The Associated Press and the Sporting News also named Mickey Mantle the athlete of the year in 1956.
Thank you WP for being one to answer the question.
You’re right. I failed to mention professional. I meant pros.
Yes, I am, and Mickey Mantle wins with more trophies in a single season as a pro - using your exact criteria, no less; glad we could settle it.
😁
PS - Too bad neither legend of their chosen sport had access to modern surgical techniques, huh? Bad knees shortened both careers and injured knees are much more ‘fixable’ today.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I’m starting to feel that people who joined this thread just want to argue instead of answer the question.
>
In all fairness you are throwing around terms like "easily" and "not even close" in a valid debate about greatness, so yes, people on the internet will argue
In all fairness I said how much I love Gretzky and Lemieux.
If you saw Orr you’d understand why I say what I say.
Comparing Orr’s plus minus to other greats is like comparing MJ at 33 ppg to Wilts 42 plus 22 rebounds.
The fact you keep hyping +/- stats is kind of embarrassing. It's a borderline meaningless stat that no serious hockey fan gives any weight to. It's a little like hyping fielding % in baseball except even worse. The fact Dallas Smith has 4th-highest ever for a single season tells you everything you need to know. The fact that pretty much every top season occurred in a 7-year stretch of the 70s thanks to so many horrible expansion teams should also tell you plenty. Add onto it that you're hyping Orr's per-game rate, which is inflated by one outlier season and his early retirement... I mean, c'mon.
Fact is, defense in that era was poor. There's a famous video of YouTube of Bobby making a diving blocked shot. Makes for a great highlight. Until you watch it again and see his atrocious positioning and poor effort prior to the block. Stuff like that was par for the course in the 1970s along with terrible skating but have long since disappeared in the modern NHL.
I think we can agree that the NHL awards lots and lots of trophies. Since we've learned that the only way to measure the merits of a skater is +/- per game, and that the only way to measure the merits of a goalie is save percentage, can you please remind me what trophy is awarded for +/- (per game or otherwise) and save percentage?
Coffey = more career goals, assist , points . More playoff goals , assist and points . And more goals in a single season 48 to 46. The big one of course is the 4 cup wins compared to 2 for Orr. And they didn't expand the league by 100 % in Coffey's second season like in Orr's . Those are hard facts and really the only relevant numbers that matter. Just win baby.
@brad31 said:
It is starting to feel like this thread was designed to argue at how good Orr was instead of talking about other great seasons or achievements (which was what I thought the intent was). The title should be Orr is the greatest player ever in any sport and has 5 trophies to prove it. Prove me wrong!
The Hockey News re-did their Top 75 players of All-Time and had 1) Gretzky 2) Orr 3) Lemieux and 4) Howe.
To use a rate stay comparing a player who played 11 years (two of which he barely played) with a player who played 19 seasons is silly. If you take Gretzky’s best 9 year stretch it is .82. Orr as a Blackhawk (aged 28-30) he was .30. When Gretzky was the same age he was a .39.
Gretzky had a long career, so he gets the nod from some others. Per game though he was inferior to Bobby’s dominance.
A .08 difference during their 9 year peak pencils to being on the ice for 6 more goals for your team (or less goals for the other team). Not my definition of inferior.
@habs007 said:
Coffey = more career goals, assist , points . More playoff goals , assist and points . And more goals in a single season 48 to 46. The big one of course is the 4 cup wins compared to 2 for Orr. And they didn't expand the league by 100 % in Coffey's second season like in Orr's . Those are hard facts and really the only relevant numbers that matter. Just win baby.
So is it fair to say that Coffey was fortunate in his choice of teammates while Orr was fortunate in his choice of opponents?
@habs007 said:
Coffey = more career goals, assist , points . More playoff goals , assist and points . And more goals in a single season 48 to 46. The big one of course is the 4 cup wins compared to 2 for Orr. And they didn't expand the league by 100 % in Coffey's second season like in Orr's . Those are hard facts and really the only relevant numbers that matter. Just win baby.
The league went from 6 teams in Orr's first season to 18 teams in his 9th. That 9th season, where he set his career high in goals and led the league in scoring for the 2nd time, the league added 2 teams. He had 16 points in 5 games against Washington, one of those 2 teams and widely considered the worst NHL team ever (they gave up 172 goals more than the league average - an average of 2.15 per game). The other year he led the league in scoring, 1970/71, was also (probably not coincidentally) an expansion year for the NHL.
Orr was an amazing player whose top flight skating (at a time when so many guys were terrible skaters) and offensive skills helped him stand out. The fact he was playing in a severely watered down league certainly boosted his stats significantly. In his first season leading the league in scoring, Orr outpaced the #2 scorer by 21% (120 to 99). His other year he led #2 by 6%.
Wayne Gretzky, in just the few years I looked at, had years where he led the #2 guy by 44%, 58%, and 63%. It's simply just not true that Orr dominated like nobody else. And, yes, I'm aware it's not exactly fair to compare a center to a defenseman offensively.
Orr is #5 all time in points per game. Do you realize how many great hof forwards he’s ahead of ? He spent most of his time doing more than scoring. None of the guys you’re mentioning did any of this. GOAT
He’s a +0.9 per game and Gretzky and Lemieux are a +0.2 per game because those two couldn’t defend like him. They waited at center ice instead of doing hard work down low.
Orr 8 straight Norris. Coffey 3 total.
Lol.
Face it. All of you just never saw him play.
Scotty Bowman invented plus minus.
Others on message boards like to knock the great Bowman. Lol.
You’re absolutely correct when you say hat I’ve never seen Orr play (or at least I don’t remember…too young).
Orr is the greatest defenceman to ever play the game. I agree. His game was next level.
PC was a great offensive defenceman but even that I wouldn’t compare to Orr. Defensively it wasn’t even close. I give you Orr as the GOAT on defence.
Player. Gretzky was 2 (or 3)levels above any player in terms of hockey sense and ability. He didn’t check. He didn’t block shots. He didn’t fight. He didn’t need to because he was too talented. Yes. I watched him play. He didn’t just break records…..he broke hockey.
Gretzky and Lemieux were phenomenal offensive players that played a half ice game, using half the energy, fight, and grit Orr played with. Orr’s +0.9 per game will never even be sniffed at. He was dominant.
This is just a waste at this point - OP believes it’s Orr and can’t be convinced otherwise. Many of us believe it’s someone else and won’t be convinced otherwise. Message board debate is great, but this is now 2 long threads from the OP about Orr with the same outcome. I know the original intent was slightly different but it was inevitable that this would be the result.
Personally i believe the right answer is Lemieux. He averaged over 2 PPG before he came out of retirement, is still the only NHL player to score all 5 ways in a game (if OP can use +/- as his main argument, I reserve the right to use this arbitrary stat because every player since the beginning of the league has had the opportunity to do this and no one else has), and his supporting cast wasn’t close to what Wayne had from 99’s first day in the league. No one will convince me otherwise, but figured i’d throw that out there as my contribution.
Bobby left us all wanting more , sadly his knees were gone , destroyed by archaic surgery . One of the saddest story in all of sports. Truly god - like on the ice - now a legend in retirement . Thanks for the memories .
Point shares is silly.
Dryden and Hasek are easily the GOAT goalies.
Orr easily the GOAT defenseman.
Gretzky and Howe the GOAT forwards.
@brad31 said:
I think Glenn Hall and Patrick Roy are in the conversation for GOAT goalies as is Tretiak.
It's quite confusing how Brodeur doesn't enter in to either of these two comments, he's quite clearly the GOAT of NHL goalies...almost 150 more wins than second place Roy, shutout leader, games played leader, single handedly turned a franchise into a perennial championship contender, and I guess 2nd all time in goaltender points is noteworthy too.
His career save percentage is terrible. He had great teams and great defense. Overrated
Brodeur was overrated? So by your measure of save % alone, Roy and Fleury were overrated as well?
Brodeur faced 20 shots a game in Lemaires boring trap system.
Martins save percentage speaks for itself, as does Roy.
Want to see great goaltending?
Watch Tim Thomas highlights from the 2011 postseason. Greatest goaltending display ever in the history of the NHL and a .967 save percentage to prove it. Unequalled. He was better than both of those guys, but had a short career. He stopped the puck at a higher rate. Great goalie.
Tretjak was probably every bit as good of a goaltender as Hasek and Dryden as far as skill/talent/ability/etc. (regardless of actual available stats), but unfortunately it's not possible to generate a full comparison since he was unable to defect and play in the NHL in his era.
Point shares is silly.
Dryden and Hasek are easily the GOAT goalies.
Orr easily the GOAT defenseman.
Gretzky and Howe the GOAT forwards.
@brad31 said:
I think Glenn Hall and Patrick Roy are in the conversation for GOAT goalies as is Tretiak.
It's quite confusing how Brodeur doesn't enter in to either of these two comments, he's quite clearly the GOAT of NHL goalies...almost 150 more wins than second place Roy, shutout leader, games played leader, single handedly turned a franchise into a perennial championship contender, and I guess 2nd all time in goaltender points is noteworthy too.
His career save percentage is terrible. He had great teams and great defense. Overrated
Brodeur was overrated? So by your measure of save % alone, Roy and Fleury were overrated as well?
Brodeur faced 20 shots a game in Lemaires boring trap system.
Martins save percentage speaks for itself, as does Roy.
Want to see great goaltending?
Watch Tim Thomas highlights from the 2011 postseason. Greatest goaltending display ever in the history of the NHL and a .967 save percentage to prove it. Unequalled. He was better than both of those guys, but had a short career. He stopped the puck at a higher rate. Great goalie.
Tretjak was probably every bit as good of a goaltender as Hasek and Dryden as far as skill/talent/ability/etc. (regardless of actual available stats), but unfortunately it's not possible to generate a full comparison since he was unable to defect and play in the NHL in his era.
Plus as Goalie coach for the Blackhawks both Belfour and Hasek credit him with a lot of their success. Belfour switched numbers when he went to Dallas to honor him. Keenan, who doesn’t throw around compliments lightly said when he was a 38 year old coach that he was still good enough to play in the NHL.
You can pay a big price sending cards to Orr to sign. I’ve cracked cards like these that have come back a grade or two lower. It’s the chance you take.
@brad31 said:
Why hate the Blackhawks cards? They saved the Bruins $3MM at a time when that was a lot of money!
Because of Alan Eagleson. He lied to Orr to get him to Chicago
Boston offered Orr ownership of the team and Alan never told him.
Orr was definitely not told of the deal and would have signed with the Bruins. Would it really have been good for Boston to have a player who earned about $4.8MM in his career (would have been $3.8MM without the Blackhawks deal) own 18.5% of the Bruins? Teams absolutely needs more wealthy owners who can weather occasional losses.
Comments
Gretzky was incredible, as was Mario
Brodeur was overrated? So by your measure of save % alone, Roy and Fleury were overrated as well?
So what you are saying is James Reimer, Anti Raanta and Roman Chechmanek are better goalies than Brodeur and Roy?
Why aren't you praising Ben Bishops GOAT worthy save % then?
Brodeur faced 20 shots a game in Lemaires boring trap system.
Martins save percentage speaks for itself, as does Roy.
Want to see great goaltending?
Watch Tim Thomas highlights from the 2011 postseason. Greatest goaltending display ever in the history of the NHL and a .967 save percentage to prove it. Unequalled. He was better than both of those guys, but had a short career. He stopped the puck at a higher rate. Great goalie.
Bishop was better than both Roy and Brodeur also. Better at stopping shots. Much better.
Not arguing that any of the goalies you mentioned are the best ever to play the game, but to speak so lowly of Brodeur and Roy is weird in a conversation about GOAT goalies, but carry on
LOL I give up, you win
People thought Terry Bradshaw was great too. Roy and Brodeur are in Bradshaw territory.
Tim Thomas 2011 postseason was the only time I saw a player dominate the way Bobby Orr did.
Gretzky and Lemieux had their moments too.
I admit I never saw Orr play, I didn't start watching until the 80's.
I only came in to defend Gretzky when you said Orr is easily better per game. Easily was poor choice of words.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Easily was the correct choice.
+0.9 to +0.25. ???
Orr dominated the ice.
Gretzky didn’t, or he’d be a +0.9
per game also.
Gretzky was no Orr. Not even close.
It is starting to feel like this thread was designed to argue at how good Orr was instead of talking about other great seasons or achievements (which was what I thought the intent was). The title should be Orr is the greatest player ever in any sport and has 5 trophies to prove it. Prove me wrong!
The Hockey News re-did their Top 75 players of All-Time and had 1) Gretzky 2) Orr 3) Lemieux and 4) Howe.
To use a rate stay comparing a player who played 11 years (two of which he barely played) with a player who played 19 seasons is silly. If you take Gretzky’s best 9 year stretch it is .82. Orr as a Blackhawk (aged 28-30) he was .30. When Gretzky was the same age he was a .39.
To say there is no argument for Gretzky is just plain ignorant.
No, it didn’t.
But since it is a thread you started, I think that must nave been what you meant it to be so I’ll play along. 😉
Mickey Mantle - 1956
In perhaps the best single season any baseball player ever had offensively, Mickey won the Major League Triple Crown, exactly as described above: his batting average, home run and RBI totals led not just the AL but all of baseball. That year, he won AL MVP, the Yankees won the World Series (full disclosure, Don Larsen won WS MVP, what with his having thrown a perfect game), was Sporting News’ MLB player of the year and also won the Hickock Belt, awarded to the best athlete of the year. The Associated Press and the Sporting News also named Mickey Mantle the athlete of the year in 1956.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I’m starting to feel that people who joined this thread just want to argue instead of answer the question.
Gretzky had a long career, so he gets the nod from some others. Per game though he was inferior to Bobby’s dominance.
>
In all fairness you are throwing around terms like "easily" and "not even close" in a valid debate about greatness, so yes, people on the internet will argue
2009 was a good year for Messi:
I came in and answered your exact question showing five trophies for Yaz and you disparaged his accomplishments. Others have answered it with Jordan, Messi, etc.
Thank you WP for being one to answer the question.
You’re right. I failed to mention professional. I meant pros.
In all fairness I said how much I love Gretzky and Lemieux.
If you saw Orr you’d understand why I say what I say.
Comparing Orr’s plus minus to other greats is like comparing MJ at 33 ppg to Wilts 42 plus 22 rebounds.
Sorry. Others here know I feel MLB gives out trophies too easily, and to both leagues instead of one.
Yastrzemski was awesome
Yes, I am, and Mickey Mantle wins with more trophies in a single season as a pro - using your exact criteria, no less; glad we could settle it.
😁
PS - Too bad neither legend of their chosen sport had access to modern surgical techniques, huh? Bad knees shortened both careers and injured knees are much more ‘fixable’ today.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
The fact you keep hyping +/- stats is kind of embarrassing. It's a borderline meaningless stat that no serious hockey fan gives any weight to. It's a little like hyping fielding % in baseball except even worse. The fact Dallas Smith has 4th-highest ever for a single season tells you everything you need to know. The fact that pretty much every top season occurred in a 7-year stretch of the 70s thanks to so many horrible expansion teams should also tell you plenty. Add onto it that you're hyping Orr's per-game rate, which is inflated by one outlier season and his early retirement... I mean, c'mon.
Fact is, defense in that era was poor. There's a famous video of YouTube of Bobby making a diving blocked shot. Makes for a great highlight. Until you watch it again and see his atrocious positioning and poor effort prior to the block. Stuff like that was par for the course in the 1970s along with terrible skating but have long since disappeared in the modern NHL.
I think we can agree that the NHL awards lots and lots of trophies. Since we've learned that the only way to measure the merits of a skater is +/- per game, and that the only way to measure the merits of a goalie is save percentage, can you please remind me what trophy is awarded for +/- (per game or otherwise) and save percentage?
Coffey = more career goals, assist , points . More playoff goals , assist and points . And more goals in a single season 48 to 46. The big one of course is the 4 cup wins compared to 2 for Orr. And they didn't expand the league by 100 % in Coffey's second season like in Orr's . Those are hard facts and really the only relevant numbers that matter. Just win baby.
A .08 difference during their 9 year peak pencils to being on the ice for 6 more goals for your team (or less goals for the other team). Not my definition of inferior.
So is it fair to say that Coffey was fortunate in his choice of teammates while Orr was fortunate in his choice of opponents?
The league went from 6 teams in Orr's first season to 18 teams in his 9th. That 9th season, where he set his career high in goals and led the league in scoring for the 2nd time, the league added 2 teams. He had 16 points in 5 games against Washington, one of those 2 teams and widely considered the worst NHL team ever (they gave up 172 goals more than the league average - an average of 2.15 per game). The other year he led the league in scoring, 1970/71, was also (probably not coincidentally) an expansion year for the NHL.
Orr was an amazing player whose top flight skating (at a time when so many guys were terrible skaters) and offensive skills helped him stand out. The fact he was playing in a severely watered down league certainly boosted his stats significantly. In his first season leading the league in scoring, Orr outpaced the #2 scorer by 21% (120 to 99). His other year he led #2 by 6%.
Wayne Gretzky, in just the few years I looked at, had years where he led the #2 guy by 44%, 58%, and 63%. It's simply just not true that Orr dominated like nobody else. And, yes, I'm aware it's not exactly fair to compare a center to a defenseman offensively.
should it not be considered that Orr did not experience a decline stage in his career?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Orr is #5 all time in points per game. Do you realize how many great hof forwards he’s ahead of ? He spent most of his time doing more than scoring. None of the guys you’re mentioning did any of this. GOAT
Orr played offense and defense like a BOSS.
He’s a +0.9 per game and Gretzky and Lemieux are a +0.2 per game because those two couldn’t defend like him. They waited at center ice instead of doing hard work down low.
Orr 8 straight Norris. Coffey 3 total.
Lol.
Face it. All of you just never saw him play.
Scotty Bowman invented plus minus.
Others on message boards like to knock the great Bowman. Lol.
There are some all time crazy statements made in this thread.
You’re absolutely correct when you say hat I’ve never seen Orr play (or at least I don’t remember…too young).
Orr is the greatest defenceman to ever play the game. I agree. His game was next level.
PC was a great offensive defenceman but even that I wouldn’t compare to Orr. Defensively it wasn’t even close. I give you Orr as the GOAT on defence.
Player. Gretzky was 2 (or 3)levels above any player in terms of hockey sense and ability. He didn’t check. He didn’t block shots. He didn’t fight. He didn’t need to because he was too talented. Yes. I watched him play. He didn’t just break records…..he broke hockey.
Gretzky and Lemieux were phenomenal offensive players that played a half ice game, using half the energy, fight, and grit Orr played with. Orr’s +0.9 per game will never even be sniffed at. He was dominant.
1987 Canada Cup.
Gretzky and Lemieux on the same line. What a treat!
This thread easily belongs in the Sports Talk forum.
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
This is just a waste at this point - OP believes it’s Orr and can’t be convinced otherwise. Many of us believe it’s someone else and won’t be convinced otherwise. Message board debate is great, but this is now 2 long threads from the OP about Orr with the same outcome. I know the original intent was slightly different but it was inevitable that this would be the result.
Personally i believe the right answer is Lemieux. He averaged over 2 PPG before he came out of retirement, is still the only NHL player to score all 5 ways in a game (if OP can use +/- as his main argument, I reserve the right to use this arbitrary stat because every player since the beginning of the league has had the opportunity to do this and no one else has), and his supporting cast wasn’t close to what Wayne had from 99’s first day in the league. No one will convince me otherwise, but figured i’d throw that out there as my contribution.
Jim
Bobby left us all wanting more , sadly his knees were gone , destroyed by archaic surgery . One of the saddest story in all of sports. Truly god - like on the ice - now a legend in retirement . Thanks for the memories .
Tretjak was probably every bit as good of a goaltender as Hasek and Dryden as far as skill/talent/ability/etc. (regardless of actual available stats), but unfortunately it's not possible to generate a full comparison since he was unable to defect and play in the NHL in his era.
Plus as Goalie coach for the Blackhawks both Belfour and Hasek credit him with a lot of their success. Belfour switched numbers when he went to Dallas to honor him. Keenan, who doesn’t throw around compliments lightly said when he was a 38 year old coach that he was still good enough to play in the NHL.
In honor of Goldenage's unrelenting passion for Bobby Orr, here's a snippet of my Orr collection...
Absolutely love it ! Except the Chicago 🙂
Great centering on many of them.
Are both 68s Topps or OPC ?
Fantastic stuff. !!!
1968 #2 of course. Not the other 68s. They look too well centered to be opc but you never know.
The trophy cards make a nice display. I like them signed too.
1968 Topps PSA 7, 1968 OPC PSA 6...both cracked out of holders
Very well done. 73 a light or dark back ? Both versions came out of packs. Perfect centering!
Why hate the Blackhawks cards? They saved the Bruins $3MM at a time when that was a lot of money!
Because of Alan Eagleson. He lied to Orr to get him to Chicago
Boston offered Orr ownership of the team and Alan never told him.
Dtmodel is my brother from a different mother. It takes years to assemble something like that.
Very well done !
You can pay a big price sending cards to Orr to sign. I’ve cracked cards like these that have come back a grade or two lower. It’s the chance you take.
Orr was definitely not told of the deal and would have signed with the Bruins. Would it really have been good for Boston to have a player who earned about $4.8MM in his career (would have been $3.8MM without the Blackhawks deal) own 18.5% of the Bruins? Teams absolutely needs more wealthy owners who can weather occasional losses.