Jim Brown played 9 years. #1 in rushing yards per game for running backs. Stopped at age 29 to Bobby’s 28.
Both considered the best ever.
Some consider Brown the best ever, but there is a very large contingency that puts him at #2. Count me in among those who have Barry Sanders as #1 RB over Jim Brown. Yes, it is subjective and debatable, and there is no definitively correct answer on that.
And some also consider Walter Payton as the best ever RB. And I'm sure many Cowboys fans will say Smith was the best because he holds the rushing records, despite having the best OF Line.
All time team Canada protects a one goal lead with a minute left unit.
Howe
Clarke
someone else
For Canada, my forwards for that situation would be Bob Gainey, Patrice Bergeron and probably Gordie Howe.
I like that. Though I would prefer two outstanding face off guys.
I thought about F.O. in case Berg. got tossed from the draw by the ref; that's why I was considering picking Yzerman instead of Howe. I had a tough time deciding between Howe and Yzerman for different reasons. Still produces great offense but brings a faceoff ability Howe does not equate. Both those guys are tied for the 3rd spot for me. Brind'Amour is my 5th choice on forward there.
All time team Canada protects a one goal lead with a minute left unit.
Howe
Clarke
someone else
For Canada, my forwards for that situation would be Bob Gainey, Patrice Bergeron and probably Gordie Howe.
I like that. Though I would prefer two outstanding face off guys.
I thought about F.O. in case Berg. got tossed from the draw by the ref; that's why I was considering picking Yzerman instead of Howe. I had a tough time deciding between Howe and Yzerman for different reasons. Still produces great offense but brings a faceoff ability Howe does not equate. Both those guys are tied for the 3rd spot for me. Brind'Amour is my 5th choice on forward there.
Jury's still out on D.
Here’s the top 50 face off guys, and of course no Gretzky or Lemieux on that list.
All time team Canada protects a one goal lead with a minute left unit.
Howe
Clarke
someone else
For Canada, my forwards for that situation would be Bob Gainey, Patrice Bergeron and probably Gordie Howe.
I like that. Though I would prefer two outstanding face off guys.
I thought about F.O. in case Berg. got tossed from the draw by the ref; that's why I was considering picking Yzerman instead of Howe. I had a tough time deciding between Howe and Yzerman for different reasons. Still produces great offense but brings a faceoff ability Howe does not equate. Both those guys are tied for the 3rd spot for me. Brind'Amour is my 5th choice on forward there.
Jury's still out on D.
Here’s the top 50 face off guys, and of course no Gretzky or Lemieux on that list.
Bobby Orr was a great player. He was ahead of his time. He is considered to be the great defenceman because of what he did both offensively and defensively.
Gretzky is the GOAT. It’s that simple!!!
Holds countless scoring records. His job was to get the puck and score. It wasn’t to block shots….that was the job of his teammates. It was his teammates job to fight. Coming close to getting records ….isn’t getting records. He scored in every//any situation imaginable. He was/is the greatest player to ever play the game. In any situation…..
Gretzky played defence but didn’t do he dirty work that Orr had to do. He outsmarted the opposition…that’s why he was so successful. I used to call Gretzky a “cherry picker” because he refused to go down low defensively. That was all by design in the Oilers system.
You’re an “old time” hockey guy (no disrespect intended)…so am I. I love guys like Orr and Howe. They were my reference points when teaching my son to play.
I’m not trying to change your mind as to who the greatest hockey player is. Just trying to keep it real.
When it comes to the best units, you always put your best players on.
Howe
Lemieux
Gretzky
Orr
Bourque/Potvin
@Goldenage said:
Gretzky was so good that he didn’t have to play defense ?
Orr won 8 straight nORRis trophies because he was the greatest defensive player. Should he not have played offense and won two scoring titles. ?
I mean, if Gretzky should not play defense, then Orr should not have played offense ? Right ?
So great defensemen should never attack and great offensive players
should never defend ? Correct. ?
Norris trophies aren’t awarded to the best defensive defenseman (that’s actually one of the few trophies that hockey is missing). He might have been the best all around defenseman of his time, but that doesn’t mean he was the best at preventing the other team from scoring. Maybe things were different back then, but over the past few decades the Norris has typically gone to the defenseman that has scored the most without being a total train wreck in his end.
If you want to take the “the best defense is a good offense” approach, then yeah - he’d be valuable at that. But 8 Norris trophies doesn’t mean that he’s the best guy to put on the ice with 1 minute left when you’re up by 1. If you’re down 1 with a minute to go, Gretzky is absolutely on the ice (as is Orr).
in the prime years of Orr's career 67 -74 the league expanded 3 fold . This resulted in an influx of career minor leaguers , washed up vets and undrafted youngsters as teams scrambled to fill roster spots. But one area that is overlooked is the 67 players that the WHA signed away from the NHL in 71 -72 . Stars and great players all , again the NHL had to scrounge thru the minors - even though the WHA had signed many of the best players in these minor leagues already .To say the talent was thin during this era is clearly an understatement.
@habs007 said:
in the prime years of Orr's career 67 -74 the league expanded 3 fold . This resulted in an influx of career minor leaguers , washed up vets and undrafted youngsters as teams scrambled to fill roster spots. But one area that is overlooked is the 67 players that the WHA signed away from the NHL in 71 -72 . Stars and great players all , again the NHL had to scrounge thru the minors - even though the WHA had signed many of the best players in these minor leagues already .To say the talent was thin during this era is clearly an understatement.
Another component to add to your point there: it was also a time when almost all the NHL players were from North America with only a few relevant exceptions. There were some great players in Europe who were not able to come over to the NHL back then like they do in modern hockey.
@Goldenage said:
Gretzky was so good that he didn’t have to play defense ?
Orr won 8 straight nORRis trophies because he was the greatest defensive player. Should he not have played offense and won two scoring titles. ?
I mean, if Gretzky should not play defense, then Orr should not have played offense ? Right ?
So great defensemen should never attack and great offensive players
should never defend ? Correct. ?
Norris trophies aren’t awarded to the best defensive defenseman (that’s actually one of the few trophies that hockey is missing). He might have been the best all around defenseman of his time, but that doesn’t mean he was the best at preventing the other team from scoring. Maybe things were different back then, but over the past few decades the Norris has typically gone to the defenseman that has scored the most without being a total train wreck in his end.
If you want to take the “the best defense is a good offense” approach, then yeah - he’d be valuable at that. But 8 Norris trophies doesn’t mean that he’s the best guy to put on the ice with 1 minute left when you’re up by 1. If you’re down 1 with a minute to go, Gretzky is absolutely on the ice (as is Orr).
Yes, good post (also, I agree that too high of a percentage of Norris-voters cast their vote as if the Norris is the Art Ross for Defence. It should not be the D's version of the Art Ross or for the Selke either. Best all-around defenceman of the year deserves the Norris. I like to hope that most years that probably happens, even though sometimes it is biased too heavily on scoring). You're point above is similar to why I pick Bob Gainey as my first pick of a forward to shut down a line and protect a lead, even though I'd never consider him in the conversation if the situation were the other way around. Over the course of an even hockey game for 60min, then sure put your best players out there, in general. But if the question is about a very specific, desperate minute, then you line-select for the specialists.
If it's all Canadian-born, then with 1 minute on the clock and up a goal, then to protect a lead I think I'm pulling Howe and deciding on a 5-man unit of Gainey/P.Bergeron/Yzerman as the forwards and L.Robinson plus I'm leaning towards D.Harvey over Orr as my D. Nothing against Orr at all, and I'm not saying Harvey and Big Bird are better players than him. I'm just going with the players who I think specialize in a very specific task for a particular minute. Also, Orr is a higher risk for PIMs than Robinson and Harvey, and protecting a lead for a minute isn't any fun on the penalty kill. Lastly, keep in mind that the other team in this hypothetical has no doubt pulled their goalie, and so in a reverse situation, while I have Gainey/Bergeron/Yzerman/Robinson/Harvey, the other side is skating 6 with Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe/Orr/ one of either Bourque or Coffey, and, probably Yzerman as the 6th man in place of the pulled goalie to get the combo of points plus faceoff wins.
Ken Dryden writes in his famous book "The Game" that when he asks Scotty Bowman his most important job as coach, Scotty replies "To get the right players on the ice."
@habs007 said:
in the prime years of Orr's career 67 -74 the league expanded 3 fold . This resulted in an influx of career minor leaguers , washed up vets and undrafted youngsters as teams scrambled to fill roster spots. But one area that is overlooked is the 67 players that the WHA signed away from the NHL in 71 -72 . Stars and great players all , again the NHL had to scrounge thru the minors - even though the WHA had signed many of the best players in these minor leagues already .To say the talent was thin during this era is clearly an understatement.
Another component to add to your point there: it was also a time when almost all the NHL players were from North America with only a few relevant exceptions. There were some great players in Europe who were not able to come over to the NHL back then like they do in modern hockey.
This, at least, can't be used as a counterargument because it's not a reason that the level of competition was lower than, say, 1960-65.
@habs007 said:
in the prime years of Orr's career 67 -74 the league expanded 3 fold . This resulted in an influx of career minor leaguers , washed up vets and undrafted youngsters as teams scrambled to fill roster spots. But one area that is overlooked is the 67 players that the WHA signed away from the NHL in 71 -72 . Stars and great players all , again the NHL had to scrounge thru the minors - even though the WHA had signed many of the best players in these minor leagues already .To say the talent was thin during this era is clearly an understatement.
So, curious because I haven't studied this era extensively, did most players who played from '62 to '65, say, have a statistical explosion in the "prime Orr" era? Examples either way?
@habs007 said:
in the prime years of Orr's career 67 -74 the league expanded 3 fold . This resulted in an influx of career minor leaguers , washed up vets and undrafted youngsters as teams scrambled to fill roster spots. But one area that is overlooked is the 67 players that the WHA signed away from the NHL in 71 -72 . Stars and great players all , again the NHL had to scrounge thru the minors - even though the WHA had signed many of the best players in these minor leagues already .To say the talent was thin during this era is clearly an understatement.
Then why did they beat the Russians without Orr in 72 but get embarrassed by the Russians in 1980 when even Team USA beat the Russians ?
The expansion Flyers won the Cup two straight years with this watered down talent. Parent from the original six. That’s how good the talent was.
@Goldenage said:
Gretzky was so good that he didn’t have to play defense ?
Orr won 8 straight nORRis trophies because he was the greatest defensive player. Should he not have played offense and won two scoring titles. ?
I mean, if Gretzky should not play defense, then Orr should not have played offense ? Right ?
So great defensemen should never attack and great offensive players
should never defend ? Correct. ?
Norris trophies aren’t awarded to the best defensive defenseman (that’s actually one of the few trophies that hockey is missing). He might have been the best all around defenseman of his time, but that doesn’t mean he was the best at preventing the other team from scoring. Maybe things were different back then, but over the past few decades the Norris has typically gone to the defenseman that has scored the most without being a total train wreck in his end.
If you want to take the “the best defense is a good offense” approach, then yeah - he’d be valuable at that. But 8 Norris trophies doesn’t mean that he’s the best guy to put on the ice with 1 minute left when you’re up by 1. If you’re down 1 with a minute to go, Gretzky is absolutely on the ice (as is Orr).
Defensemen In Orr’s era only played defense. Harvey was the only one who played like Orr.
Scotty Bowman told his team not to skate the puck down Orr’s side. To dump it in or skate it down the other side.
Orr is as fast as McDavid. Dryden said Orr struck fear in him because of his speed.
Orr was THE Greatest defenseman ever and averaged more points per game than 98% of the hall of fame forwards that ever played.
@Raptormaniacs said:
Gretzky played defence but didn’t do he dirty work that Orr had to do. He outsmarted the opposition…that’s why he was so successful. I used to call Gretzky a “cherry picker” because he refused to go down low defensively. That was all by design in the Oilers system.
You’re an “old time” hockey guy (no disrespect intended)…so am I. I love guys like Orr and Howe. They were my reference points when teaching my son to play.
I’m not trying to change your mind as to who the greatest hockey player is. Just trying to keep it real.
When it comes to the best units, you always put your best players on.
Howe
Lemieux
Gretzky
Orr
Bourque/Potvin
This is the best selection I’ve seen so far. Totally agree.
@Goldenage said:
In 1982 at the age of 21, Gretzky average 2.4 points per game in the postseason but couldn’t lead his team with Messier and Coffey past LA in the first round of the playoffs.
He was a minus 1.
That’s Gretzky. Scoring points but never playing defense.
At age 21 Bobby Orr led his team to a Stanley Cup championship, winning five major trophies in one year.
He was a +24 that postseason.
You all are ignoring the plus minus side of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr.
No one has yet to address it.
Similarly, in 1970 The Bruins had the top 4 scorers (and 6 of the top 8) in the league and couldn't make it to the Cup finals. Dryden broke my heart...Yes I did grow up in Boston and watched Orr on Channel 38 (not that it should be a litmus test for having an opinion on this thread).
My heart says Orr was the GOAT, but my brain says Gretzky.
So was team Canada in a 6-0 loss to Russia in 1979 at MSG.
The two GOATs, Orr and Dryden weren’t in that game, or it would have been a victory for Canada.
Ok. I’m done here.😎
Dryden was on roster but not selected to start that game. Orr was not on the roster, and by 1979 his knees would not have held up to making a difference in that game.
But, Dryden was not the only star on roster but not playing in that game. Pasted from an article about it:
"The Soviets were so confident in victory that they even gave their number-one goalie a rest and started their back-up! That is, Vladislav Tretjak watched the final game from the bench and Vladimir Myshkin played the full 60 minutes for CCCP. Myshkin didn’t have much to do."
Another quote I saw in articles on that game:
“It's a feeble, feeble excuse,” said Gerry Cheevers, the N.H.L. goalie. “But with the curved stick their shots do tricks. You don't see those sticks in our league these days.”
@habs007 said:
in the prime years of Orr's career 67 -74 the league expanded 3 fold . This resulted in an influx of career minor leaguers , washed up vets and undrafted youngsters as teams scrambled to fill roster spots. But one area that is overlooked is the 67 players that the WHA signed away from the NHL in 71 -72 . Stars and great players all , again the NHL had to scrounge thru the minors - even though the WHA had signed many of the best players in these minor leagues already .To say the talent was thin during this era is clearly an understatement.
So, curious because I haven't studied this era extensively, did most players who played from '62 to '65, say, have a statistical explosion in the "prime Orr" era? Examples either way?
Interesting question, but it's hard to say; I was assuming there are probably a lot of players who fill both sides of that data analysis. Player age plus teammates influence that just as much as the expanded quantity of teams / players in the league.
So, I took a quick glance through the stats for the original 6 teams pre vs. post expansion, and there are players whose production increased, decreased and stayed the same. I think if we saw a league-wide trend of the majority of players from Original 6 going on to increased production post-expansion, then an argument would be stronger to say that only the best of the best were playing pre-'67 and that the league was "watered down" with lesser talent. But, the fact that some but not everyone scored more later is a case for the expansion including better players than credited.
Another bit of data I was curious about that I just looked up: The first time a player who was not playing in the NHL during the Original 6 era cracked the top 25 in scoring was the 2nd expansion season, 1968-69, Jacques Lemaire at #24. There were 4 in the top 25 the following season, led by Walt Tkaczuk in the #5 spot. The list increases later, obviously a lot to do with aging more than other things. But, the scoring by most of the original 6 players on those lists do not appear to show a majority trend of statistically significant increases in their totals post expansion that would be appropriate to attribute specifically to expansion.
So was team Canada in a 6-0 loss to Russia in 1979 at MSG.
The two GOATs, Orr and Dryden weren’t in that game, or it would have been a victory for Canada.
Ok. I’m done here.😎
Dryden was on roster but not selected to start that game. Orr was not on the roster, and by 1979 his knees would not have held up to making a difference in that game.
But, Dryden was not the only star on roster but not playing in that game. Pasted from an article about it:
"The Soviets were so confident in victory that they even gave their number-one goalie a rest and started their back-up! That is, Vladislav Tretjak watched the final game from the bench and Vladimir Myshkin played the full 60 minutes for CCCP. Myshkin didn’t have much to do."
Another quote I saw in articles on that game:
“It's a feeble, feeble excuse,” said Gerry Cheevers, the N.H.L. goalie. “But with the curved stick their shots do tricks. You don't see those sticks in our league these days.”
Dryden beat them in game 1.
A healthy Orr and they win game 2
So was team Canada in a 6-0 loss to Russia in 1979 at MSG.
The two GOATs, Orr and Dryden weren’t in that game, or it would have been a victory for Canada.
Ok. I’m done here.😎
Dryden was on roster but not selected to start that game. Orr was not on the roster, and by 1979 his knees would not have held up to making a difference in that game.
But, Dryden was not the only star on roster but not playing in that game. Pasted from an article about it:
"The Soviets were so confident in victory that they even gave their number-one goalie a rest and started their back-up! That is, Vladislav Tretjak watched the final game from the bench and Vladimir Myshkin played the full 60 minutes for CCCP. Myshkin didn’t have much to do."
Another quote I saw in articles on that game:
“It's a feeble, feeble excuse,” said Gerry Cheevers, the N.H.L. goalie. “But with the curved stick their shots do tricks. You don't see those sticks in our league these days.”
Dryden beat them in game 1.
A healthy Orr and they win game 2
Orr was regrettably (tragically?) unable to play at that point in his life, so including him for the sake of discussion doesn't seem relevant (or at least any more so than saying adding Gretzky and Lemieux to the roster would have hypothetically changed the outcome). Dryden vs. Cheevers was a coaching decision, that was made by Scotty Bowman.
Edit to add, Dryden played the night before that game, in game 2, and gave up 5 goals in a loss. It is understandable that Bowman considered his options and ultimately went with a different goalie for the 2nd half of the back-to-back. Didn't see any report on whether he considered pulling Cheevers and putting in Esposito at any point. Looking at the shots, Cheevers saved 6/6 in the 1st; saved 4/6 in the 2nd; and, saved only 3/7 in the 3rd. Yes, he let in 6 goals on only 19 shots. Sounds like the NHL defencemen (with no Orr) did a good job of preventing shots on goal, since allowing 19 in a game against a very strong team is quite successful. The NHL forwards didn't score, while at the same time Cheevers couldn't stop the puck.
You are collecting autographs of every living Cardinals player on every unique card you can find: 10/10
You are building a 1983 Topps set in PSA 10 via ripping only: 10/10
You change topics wildly to troll folks who don't deify your childhood hero, while being obtuse to cogent arguments and demonstrating questionable math skills: 1/10
So was team Canada in a 6-0 loss to Russia in 1979 at MSG.
The two GOATs, Orr and Dryden weren’t in that game, or it would have been a victory for Canada.
Ok. I’m done here.😎
Dryden was on roster but not selected to start that game. Orr was not on the roster, and by 1979 his knees would not have held up to making a difference in that game.
But, Dryden was not the only star on roster but not playing in that game. Pasted from an article about it:
"The Soviets were so confident in victory that they even gave their number-one goalie a rest and started their back-up! That is, Vladislav Tretjak watched the final game from the bench and Vladimir Myshkin played the full 60 minutes for CCCP. Myshkin didn’t have much to do."
Another quote I saw in articles on that game:
“It's a feeble, feeble excuse,” said Gerry Cheevers, the N.H.L. goalie. “But with the curved stick their shots do tricks. You don't see those sticks in our league these days.”
Dryden beat them in game 1.
A healthy Orr and they win game 2
A healthy Munson, instead of Cerone, and the Yankees win the 1981 World Series. What's your point?
Especially looking forward to your teams, if you’re brave enough to respond.
😎
Born and raised a Flyers fan. I'm only 37, so I never saw Orr play and can't opine on his greatness, aside from what stats show. I agree he is the greatest defenseman of all time, but not because of a per-game selection of the most pointless stat in hockey.
Main collecting focus is Patrick Roy playing days 85/86-02/03, expect 1/1, National/All-Star stamped cards.PC Completion: 2,548/2,952; 86.31% My Patrick Roy PC Website:https://proy33collector.weebly.com
Especially looking forward to your teams, if you’re brave enough to respond.
😎
Born and raised a Flyers fan. I'm only 37, so I never saw Orr play and can't opine on his greatness, aside from what stats show. I agree he is the greatest defenseman of all time, but not because of a per-game selection of the most pointless stat in hockey.
How about these stats ? He holds 5 of the top 11 greatest seasons.
No skater gets above the 20,21, or OMG 22 mark. Almost 23 !
@Goldenage said:
HOF rookie goalies between 1975-1984 ? 1. Grant Fuhr
Only 7-10 year veteran HOF goalie the Oilers faced between 1980-84 ? Billy Smith
How’d they do with that ?
Tony O was a 13-16 year veteran.
Just those two the Oilers faced.
Regardless of how his stats were during those years, Vachon also played vs. the Oilers during those years, so objectively the accurate HHOF goalie opponent count would be 3*, not 2. Vachon was older, having started his career in The Show two years earlier than Tony O.
*(technically 4, I suppose, since Rutherford is HHOF but as a builder not a goalie so that is a joke).
Orr dominated well beyond what Gretzky and Mario did. Too bad surgical techniques weren’t advanced back then.
Note that we've gone from "Orr was the greatest in spite of not being able to play past age 26" to "Orr was the greatest because he couldn't play after age 26."
Especially looking forward to your teams, if you’re brave enough to respond.
😎
Born and raised a Flyers fan. I'm only 37, so I never saw Orr play and can't opine on his greatness, aside from what stats show. I agree he is the greatest defenseman of all time, but not because of a per-game selection of the most pointless stat in hockey.
How about these stats ? He holds 5 of the top 11 greatest seasons.
No skater gets above the 20,21, or OMG 22 mark. Almost 23 !
Comments
WRONG!
When? I mean if we're talking at age 27, Orr isn't in my top 100. Or do we just pick our favorite season?
And some also consider Walter Payton as the best ever RB. And I'm sure many Cowboys fans will say Smith was the best because he holds the rushing records, despite having the best OF Line.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
I like that. Though I would prefer two outstanding face off guys.
Who are your defensemen ?
Thanks miwlvrn for responding.
Funny that others haven’t.
Here’s the question again for those that missed it.
😎
I thought about F.O. in case Berg. got tossed from the draw by the ref; that's why I was considering picking Yzerman instead of Howe. I had a tough time deciding between Howe and Yzerman for different reasons. Still produces great offense but brings a faceoff ability Howe does not equate. Both those guys are tied for the 3rd spot for me. Brind'Amour is my 5th choice on forward there.
Jury's still out on D.
Here’s the top 50 face off guys, and of course no Gretzky or Lemieux on that list.
https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-faceoff-win-percentage-leaders.html
I figured it out! You’re Lou Lamoriello!!!
Jim
Bobby Orr was a great player. He was ahead of his time. He is considered to be the great defenceman because of what he did both offensively and defensively.
Gretzky is the GOAT. It’s that simple!!!
Holds countless scoring records. His job was to get the puck and score. It wasn’t to block shots….that was the job of his teammates. It was his teammates job to fight. Coming close to getting records ….isn’t getting records. He scored in every//any situation imaginable. He was/is the greatest player to ever play the game. In any situation…..
Very quiet around here all of a sudden. Where did everyone go ?
Here’s the question again. Only got not even half an answer so far.
😎
Gretzky was so good that he didn’t have to play defense ?
Orr won 8 straight nORRis trophies because he was the greatest defensive player. Should he not have played offense and won two scoring titles. ?
I mean, if Gretzky should not play defense, then Orr should not have played offense ? Right ?
So great defensemen should never attack and great offensive players
should never defend ? Correct. ?
Gretzky played defence but didn’t do he dirty work that Orr had to do. He outsmarted the opposition…that’s why he was so successful. I used to call Gretzky a “cherry picker” because he refused to go down low defensively. That was all by design in the Oilers system.
You’re an “old time” hockey guy (no disrespect intended)…so am I. I love guys like Orr and Howe. They were my reference points when teaching my son to play.
I’m not trying to change your mind as to who the greatest hockey player is. Just trying to keep it real.
When it comes to the best units, you always put your best players on.
Howe
Lemieux
Gretzky
Orr
Bourque/Potvin
Norris trophies aren’t awarded to the best defensive defenseman (that’s actually one of the few trophies that hockey is missing). He might have been the best all around defenseman of his time, but that doesn’t mean he was the best at preventing the other team from scoring. Maybe things were different back then, but over the past few decades the Norris has typically gone to the defenseman that has scored the most without being a total train wreck in his end.
If you want to take the “the best defense is a good offense” approach, then yeah - he’d be valuable at that. But 8 Norris trophies doesn’t mean that he’s the best guy to put on the ice with 1 minute left when you’re up by 1. If you’re down 1 with a minute to go, Gretzky is absolutely on the ice (as is Orr).
Jim
in the prime years of Orr's career 67 -74 the league expanded 3 fold . This resulted in an influx of career minor leaguers , washed up vets and undrafted youngsters as teams scrambled to fill roster spots. But one area that is overlooked is the 67 players that the WHA signed away from the NHL in 71 -72 . Stars and great players all , again the NHL had to scrounge thru the minors - even though the WHA had signed many of the best players in these minor leagues already .To say the talent was thin during this era is clearly an understatement.
Another component to add to your point there: it was also a time when almost all the NHL players were from North America with only a few relevant exceptions. There were some great players in Europe who were not able to come over to the NHL back then like they do in modern hockey.
Yes, good post (also, I agree that too high of a percentage of Norris-voters cast their vote as if the Norris is the Art Ross for Defence. It should not be the D's version of the Art Ross or for the Selke either. Best all-around defenceman of the year deserves the Norris. I like to hope that most years that probably happens, even though sometimes it is biased too heavily on scoring). You're point above is similar to why I pick Bob Gainey as my first pick of a forward to shut down a line and protect a lead, even though I'd never consider him in the conversation if the situation were the other way around. Over the course of an even hockey game for 60min, then sure put your best players out there, in general. But if the question is about a very specific, desperate minute, then you line-select for the specialists.
If it's all Canadian-born, then with 1 minute on the clock and up a goal, then to protect a lead I think I'm pulling Howe and deciding on a 5-man unit of Gainey/P.Bergeron/Yzerman as the forwards and L.Robinson plus I'm leaning towards D.Harvey over Orr as my D. Nothing against Orr at all, and I'm not saying Harvey and Big Bird are better players than him. I'm just going with the players who I think specialize in a very specific task for a particular minute. Also, Orr is a higher risk for PIMs than Robinson and Harvey, and protecting a lead for a minute isn't any fun on the penalty kill. Lastly, keep in mind that the other team in this hypothetical has no doubt pulled their goalie, and so in a reverse situation, while I have Gainey/Bergeron/Yzerman/Robinson/Harvey, the other side is skating 6 with Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe/Orr/ one of either Bourque or Coffey, and, probably Yzerman as the 6th man in place of the pulled goalie to get the combo of points plus faceoff wins.
Ken Dryden writes in his famous book "The Game" that when he asks Scotty Bowman his most important job as coach, Scotty replies "To get the right players on the ice."
This, at least, can't be used as a counterargument because it's not a reason that the level of competition was lower than, say, 1960-65.
So, curious because I haven't studied this era extensively, did most players who played from '62 to '65, say, have a statistical explosion in the "prime Orr" era? Examples either way?
Then why did they beat the Russians without Orr in 72 but get embarrassed by the Russians in 1980 when even Team USA beat the Russians ?
The expansion Flyers won the Cup two straight years with this watered down talent. Parent from the original six. That’s how good the talent was.
Defensemen In Orr’s era only played defense. Harvey was the only one who played like Orr.
Scotty Bowman told his team not to skate the puck down Orr’s side. To dump it in or skate it down the other side.
Orr is as fast as McDavid. Dryden said Orr struck fear in him because of his speed.
Orr was THE Greatest defenseman ever and averaged more points per game than 98% of the hall of fame forwards that ever played.
This is the best selection I’ve seen so far. Totally agree.
The expansion Sabres made it to the final in 1975.
The NyIslanders were a dynasty with all their great young talent.
There was lots of great young players who came into the league.
Lol. Washed up minor leaguers. Lol
September 1981
Russia 8. Canada 1
Montreal Forum
Goalies were so bad during that time that Mike Liut was the goalie.
Gretzky not one point. But he was a minus for sure.
Goalies sucked from 1980-1985 in the NHL. Horrible
Compare the HOF goalie rookie cards from 1968-1973 to those from 1980-1985.
Or 1965-1973 to 1977-1985.
It’s absolutely laughable. 😭
So was team Canada in a 6-0 loss to Russia in 1979 at MSG.
The two GOATs, Orr and Dryden weren’t in that game, or it would have been a victory for Canada.
Ok. I’m done here.😎
Similarly, in 1970 The Bruins had the top 4 scorers (and 6 of the top 8) in the league and couldn't make it to the Cup finals. Dryden broke my heart...Yes I did grow up in Boston and watched Orr on Channel 38 (not that it should be a litmus test for having an opinion on this thread).
My heart says Orr was the GOAT, but my brain says Gretzky.
Dryden was on roster but not selected to start that game. Orr was not on the roster, and by 1979 his knees would not have held up to making a difference in that game.
But, Dryden was not the only star on roster but not playing in that game. Pasted from an article about it:
"The Soviets were so confident in victory that they even gave their number-one goalie a rest and started their back-up! That is, Vladislav Tretjak watched the final game from the bench and Vladimir Myshkin played the full 60 minutes for CCCP. Myshkin didn’t have much to do."
Another quote I saw in articles on that game:
“It's a feeble, feeble excuse,” said Gerry Cheevers, the N.H.L. goalie. “But with the curved stick their shots do tricks. You don't see those sticks in our league these days.”
Interesting question, but it's hard to say; I was assuming there are probably a lot of players who fill both sides of that data analysis. Player age plus teammates influence that just as much as the expanded quantity of teams / players in the league.
So, I took a quick glance through the stats for the original 6 teams pre vs. post expansion, and there are players whose production increased, decreased and stayed the same. I think if we saw a league-wide trend of the majority of players from Original 6 going on to increased production post-expansion, then an argument would be stronger to say that only the best of the best were playing pre-'67 and that the league was "watered down" with lesser talent. But, the fact that some but not everyone scored more later is a case for the expansion including better players than credited.
Another bit of data I was curious about that I just looked up: The first time a player who was not playing in the NHL during the Original 6 era cracked the top 25 in scoring was the 2nd expansion season, 1968-69, Jacques Lemaire at #24. There were 4 in the top 25 the following season, led by Walt Tkaczuk in the #5 spot. The list increases later, obviously a lot to do with aging more than other things. But, the scoring by most of the original 6 players on those lists do not appear to show a majority trend of statistically significant increases in their totals post expansion that would be appropriate to attribute specifically to expansion.
Dryden beat them in game 1.
A healthy Orr and they win game 2
Orr was regrettably (tragically?) unable to play at that point in his life, so including him for the sake of discussion doesn't seem relevant (or at least any more so than saying adding Gretzky and Lemieux to the roster would have hypothetically changed the outcome). Dryden vs. Cheevers was a coaching decision, that was made by Scotty Bowman.
Edit to add, Dryden played the night before that game, in game 2, and gave up 5 goals in a loss. It is understandable that Bowman considered his options and ultimately went with a different goalie for the 2nd half of the back-to-back. Didn't see any report on whether he considered pulling Cheevers and putting in Esposito at any point. Looking at the shots, Cheevers saved 6/6 in the 1st; saved 4/6 in the 2nd; and, saved only 3/7 in the 3rd. Yes, he let in 6 goals on only 19 shots. Sounds like the NHL defencemen (with no Orr) did a good job of preventing shots on goal, since allowing 19 in a game against a very strong team is quite successful. The NHL forwards didn't score, while at the same time Cheevers couldn't stop the puck.
😭
Reasons to continue bumping your own thread:
A healthy Munson, instead of Cerone, and the Yankees win the 1981 World Series. What's your point?
Born and raised a Flyers fan. I'm only 37, so I never saw Orr play and can't opine on his greatness, aside from what stats show. I agree he is the greatest defenseman of all time, but not because of a per-game selection of the most pointless stat in hockey.
Main collecting focus is Patrick Roy playing days 85/86-02/03, expect 1/1, National/All-Star stamped cards.PC Completion: 2,548/2,952; 86.31% My Patrick Roy PC Website:https://proy33collector.weebly.com
The original question is " loaded " since one of the awards Orr won that year , no forward's or goalies were eligible to win ( Norris ).
How about these stats ? He holds 5 of the top 11 greatest seasons.
No skater gets above the 20,21, or OMG 22 mark. Almost 23 !
https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/ps_season.html
Denis Potvin is the only D man besides Orr to crack the Top 50 all time. Click on the above link.
No Lidstrom, Bourque or Coffey.
Orr dominated well beyond what Gretzky and Mario did. Too bad surgical techniques weren’t advanced back then.
All 99’s great seasons are during the horrible nhl goalie crisis while he played for a team that won a cup without him in 1988.
HOF rookie goalies between 1975-1984 ? 1. Grant Fuhr
Only 7-10 year veteran HOF goalie the Oilers faced between 1980-84 ? Billy Smith
How’d they do with that ?
Tony O was a 13-16 year veteran.
Just those two the Oilers faced.
Round round baby round round
Gretzky averaged 1.921 ppg
Lemeiux 1.883
Orr 1.393
That is more than half a point per game difference and Gretzky did if for a far longer time.
Gretzky also once chucked Chuck Norris. Chuckie did it for a chuckle, but still.
Regardless of how his stats were during those years, Vachon also played vs. the Oilers during those years, so objectively the accurate HHOF goalie opponent count would be 3*, not 2. Vachon was older, having started his career in The Show two years earlier than Tony O.
*(technically 4, I suppose, since Rutherford is HHOF but as a builder not a goalie so that is a joke).
Here we go!
Note that we've gone from "Orr was the greatest in spite of not being able to play past age 26" to "Orr was the greatest because he couldn't play after age 26."
5 out the top 11 greatest seasons. Those are some pretty impressive Bobby Orr numbers.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Hey, whatever happened to Goldenage? He was fun.
Dropped a racist comment in another section. He didn't realize that's frowned upon.
Yikes. Did not know that. OK, moving on...
Michael Phelps?