Not shocked he declined your offer to split the difference- that would require a reasonable person on the other end of the transaction (i.e., not the type of person that attempts to return a raw coin after 13 years). Count me on the side of those saying you don't owe him anything more at this point. That said, if it was bothering you enough that you were willing to go to $400, I would think it's worth the extra $134 to be done with it.
@TheMayor said:
Not shocked he declined your offer to split the difference- that would require a reasonable person on the other end of the transaction (i.e., not the type of person that attempts to return a raw coin after 13 years). Count me on the side of those saying you don't owe him anything more at this point. That said, if it was bothering you enough that you were willing to go to $400, I would think it's worth the extra $134 to be done with it.
He could also be done with it by messaging the buyer that he won’t be accepting a return, not compensating him in any way, not engaging in any further communications and wishing him good luck.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TheMayor said:
Not shocked he declined your offer to split the difference- that would require a reasonable person on the other end of the transaction (i.e., not the type of person that attempts to return a raw coin after 13 years). Count me on the side of those saying you don't owe him anything more at this point. That said, if it was bothering you enough that you were willing to go to $400, I would think it's worth the extra $134 to be done with it.
He could also be done with it by messaging the buyer that he won’t be accepting a return, not compensating him in any way, not engaging in any further communications and wishing him good luck.
To make an offer as generous as $400 in this situation indicates this is weighing on his conscience for whatever reason. $134 for a clear conscience seems worth it to me. But, of course, your tack is a good option as well.
@MFeld said:
I have no problem believing that a coin once described as cleaned, later graded 61 and 62 at two different grading companies. However, if I understand you correctly, you guaranteed that the coin was genuine, not that it was a business strike.
Now, your buyer's telling you that two different grading companies determined that the coin was indeed, genuine. So while I'm big on fairness and doing the right thing, I see no reason to allow a return.
@TheMayor said:
Not shocked he declined your offer to split the difference- that would require a reasonable person on the other end of the transaction (i.e., not the type of person that attempts to return a raw coin after 13 years). Count me on the side of those saying you don't owe him anything more at this point. That said, if it was bothering you enough that you were willing to go to $400, I would think it's worth the extra $134 to be done with it.
He could also be done with it by messaging the buyer that he won’t be accepting a return, not compensating him in any way, not engaging in any further communications and wishing him good luck.
I think there is risk of regret no matter which course of action you take. If you refund, you may always wonder if it’s actually the same coin you sold and you may have enabled bad buyer behavior by giving in to what most of us think is an unreasonable request. If you don’t refund, you may violate your own moral standards and continue to wonder what your intent was when you wrote the guarantee.
Because both choices present possible regret, I recommend you let a neutral third party decide (e.g. ANA mediation). That to me is the cheapest way to avoid feeling bad about the situation in the future - it places the burden of making the decision on another party.
You have presented an interesting moral dilemma and I appreciate you sharing and posting it here.
I still recommend that the buyer get a full refund because the buyer's interruption of genuine to include strike type is reasonable because of the cost difference between the strike types.
At minimum consider writing back to the buyer and state your position that your genuine guarantee was for the authenticity of the coin and not for grade or a proof strike or business strike. Acknowledge that there is a difference of opinion on the genuine guarantee, and you will keep your buyback offer on the table for 30 days. If the buyer does not accept your offer within 30 days, you will consider the transaction closed.
I think it's best to get the buyer off of your back.
He is not reasonable, but as said may cause you heartache, regardless of what he says now. $140 is likely not so much for most to end drama!.
I'm repeating that a real MS-60 details 3 cent is very expensive and rare. The proofs are common. He even could be playing games with a different coin, but it would be very disappointing to want a rare business strike and have a proof.
It's good to be the better person in hobby dealings to end the drama.
I know its not my $140 and if this sounds self righteous in any way, I apologize from inside my glass house.
And the first question out of Judge Judy's mouth might be "Why would anyone EVER provide a guarantee for a cracked out coin, even one that comes with a label, that you didn't personally crack out?"
It's just possible that she would also point out that since the ANACS label which states the denomination, date, metal content, and type of striking was included with the coin, it would be implied that the guarantee would cover each/all of these aspects of the coin.
Do NOT refund this knucklehead. The whole thing is absurd, and as others have stated he lost whatever guarantee you gave him when he sold the piece and it didn't work out. Now the "no hard feelings, honor your guarantee or don't" BS? Aww shucks.
Tell him no, and watch him reveal his true self. I swear, you'll have an email full of foul language and insults.
You offered half, he wants it all...and now he gets nothing. End of story.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@PipestonePete said:
And the first question out of Judge Judy's mouth might be "Why would anyone EVER provide a guarantee for a cracked out coin, even one that comes with a label, that you didn't personally crack out?"
It's just possible that she would also point out that since the ANACS label which states the denomination, date, metal content, and type of striking was included with the coin, it would be implied that the guarantee would cover each/all of these aspects of the coin.
Not when all the guarantee said was “genuine” and that was all the buyer had requested.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@PipestonePete said:
And the first question out of Judge Judy's mouth might be "Why would anyone EVER provide a guarantee for a cracked out coin, even one that comes with a label, that you didn't personally crack out?"
It's just possible that she would also point out that since the ANACS label which states the denomination, date, metal content, and type of striking was included with the coin, it would be implied that the guarantee would cover each/all of these aspects of the coin.
She wouldn't ask that because she knows. Yes, my guarantee was flawed. But, frankly, the flaws mostly work in my favor. The lack of a sunset provision is the biggest problem. But the guarantee specifies two things, neither of which mention strike. It guarantees "genuine" which we are all bound to by federal law. It also guarantees that the coin and label went together. The buyer, in fact, acknowledged that it is and he believes ANACS has changed their mind. It did not guarantee the grade or the strike.
The buyer, who is more reasonable than you, acknowledges that he had no legal leg to stand on. He's appealing to my personal code. That's why I'm still surprised that he wouldn't entertain the $400 offer which is $150 more than he could ever sell that coin for.
That said, I'm not sure what your point is. I've acknowledged the flaws. I'm trying to remedy the situation. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to do.
Other than calling me a criminal, I'm not sure what else you've contributed.
@PipestonePete said:
[...]
It's just possible that she would also point out that since the ANACS label which states the denomination, date, metal content, and type of striking was included with the coin, it would be implied that the guarantee would cover each/all of these aspects of the coin.
Original post retracted.
I sent an e-mail to ANACS, and asked for some specifics regarding their guarantee.
If they reply with anything relevant, I will share it here.
@thebigeng said:
I like that @jmlanzaf posted this thread. I would buy a coin from him, he seems like a good guy trying to do the right thing..
Concur
Thanks, but that wasn't my reason. I'm just really conflicted about it. The buyer admits that I don't legally owe him anything but he's appealing to my (guilty) conscience. He also believes that ANACS has changed their designation from 13 years ago.
I have always had a 2 week return privelege to avoid such a mess.
If you want end the misery - just Ignore / block him. It would cost him more to move against you if any court would consider such an absurdity. Do not answer any phone calls.
You say The coin has a MV of $260. What he paid for it in 2009 means nothing except for his tax filing (loss). If you want it back offer him 70 pct of $260. That’s a fair wholesale offer. Otherwise he can just go retail it on the bourse or eBay. What he is buried in it for is his problem.
After reading the first part of his letter - I would just block him, not answer any calls, ignore any memos. Life is stressful enough without being dragged down into his quagmire.
@jmlanzaf said:
But the guarantee specifies two things, neither of which mention strike. It guarantees "genuine" which we are all bound to by federal law. It also guarantees that the coin and label went together. The buyer, in fact, acknowledged that it is and he believes ANACS has changed their mind. It did not guarantee the grade or the strike.
You've provided your own answer. It's just that conscience thing that's getting in the way.
Other than calling me a criminal, I'm not sure what else you've contributed.
I did not read the comments that way at all. People are just offering perspectives and scenarios.
@jmlanzaf said:
But the guarantee specifies two things, neither of which mention strike. It guarantees "genuine" which we are all bound to by federal law. It also guarantees that the coin and label went together. The buyer, in fact, acknowledged that it is and he believes ANACS has changed their mind. It did not guarantee the grade or the strike.
You've provided your own answer. It's just that conscience thing that's getting in the way.
Other than calling me a criminal, I'm not sure what else you've contributed.
I did not read the comments that way at all. People are just offering perspectives and scenarios.
It wasn't this comment. It was a previous comment.
"It also guarantees that the coin and label went together. The buyer, in fact, acknowledged that it is and he believes ANACS has changed their mind. It did not guarantee the grade or the strike."
"The buyer acknowledges that he had no legal leg to stand on. He's appealing to my personal code. That's why I'm still surprised that he wouldn't entertain the $400 offer which is $150 more than he could ever sell that coin for."
"I'm just really conflicted about it. The buyer admits that I don't legally owe him anything but he's appealing to my (guilty) conscience. He also believes that ANACS has changed their designation from 13 years ago."
This person it trying to take advantage of your being a fair honest person.
They are perfectly fine with letting you take the loss rather than them.
It's one thing to be fair & honest but don't let someone take advantage of your good nature.
It's too bad your buyer doesn't have the same sense of fair play.
I am fair & honest and try to provide outstanding customer service even with the more difficult customers.
Many other very reputable dealers have responded saying you owe them nothing.
You have gone out of the way to provide outstanding customer service..... walk away.
I guess I don't understand why no one has considered this scenario, because I consider it much more likely. Most people seem to think that ANACS, @jmlanzaf , his customer, and the PCGS submitter all thought that the coin in the TrueView was a business strike, not a proof, and, further, that at least ANACS and @jmlanzaf thought that it was harshly cleaned.
We're also assuming that the customer may have held the coin for thirteen years before deciding to play shenanigans with this coin, as if it makes a lot of sense to send a known proof to both NGC and ANACS.
A scenario I like that requires no one to be stupid or to act in ways that don't make sense is that the customer enjoyed the coin for thirteen years and then sold a raw, cleaned, MS coin. That person then either sent a proof to PCGS or just cracked one out and pulled a switch on the customer who doesn't understand how his coin changed. Maybe doesn't even look close enough to see the changes.
None of this offers a suggestion as to how to handle the situation. For that I'm sorry.
@thebigeng said:
I like that @jmlanzaf posted this thread. I would buy a coin from him, he seems like a good guy trying to do the right thing..
Concur
Thanks, but that wasn't my reason. I'm just really conflicted about it. The buyer admits that I don't legally owe him anything but he's appealing to my (guilty) conscience. He also believes that ANACS has changed their designation from 13 years ago.
Then he should go after ANACS for changing their mind. As has been said before there's no guarantee that it's even the same coin 13 years later!
@JBK said:
Another thing to consider is that if this buyer prevails in this unreasonable effort it will only encourage him to keep at it elsewhere.
It seems he has been selling off his coin collection but his antics will probably continue elsewhere.
Fully refunding may clear the seller's conscience but it represents (for him) taking the easy way out, and it will help feed the beast.
This hadn't really crossed my mind since I was so set against a refund before getting to this idea, but you're spot on. I've had clearly bad actors on eBay try to pull fast ones (bogus SNAD cases) and eBay, in an attempt to placate me, has stepped in and provided a refund (and let the buyer keep the item) rather than have me go through the expense of taking it back with and the loss stemming from damage they imparted on the item. I'm happy to not take the loss, but I've complained bitterly to eBay that doing so will just encourage these buyers to do the same thing again to another seller, seeing as they got away with it the first time.
Joe
Please take a step back and breathe.
After reading many of your posts, I find you usually very set in your answers. This is simple to me but it seems to have really caught you kinda off guard.
I am going to say “ the buyer is really out of it”. Absolutely don’t return money.
There’s way too many variables and it’s ridiculous for the buyer to even present such a silly question.
Not a chance I’d believe anything said by them.
For those worried about retribution I believe there’s many things you can do. If someone contacted me at work, with such a ridiculous request, I would throw a fit and report them to the campus authorities.
I hope you can decide as I really don’t like it when you are confused. I’m not used to seeing you anything but certain about your answers.
13 years is way ridiculous.
Good luck 😉🙀🦫
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Joe
Please take a step back and breathe.
After reading many of your posts, I find you usually very set in your answers. This is simple to me but it seems to have really caught you kinda off guard.
I am going to say “ the buyer is really out of it”. Absolutely don’t return money.
There’s way too many variables and it’s ridiculous for the buyer to even present such a silly question.
Not a chance I’d believe anything said by them.
For those worried about retribution I believe there’s many things you can do. If someone contacted me at work, with such a ridiculous request, I would throw a fit and report them to the campus authorities.
I hope you can decide as I really don’t like it when you are confused. I’m not used to seeing you anything but certain about your answers.
13 years is way ridiculous.
Good luck 😉🙀🦫
As I’ve already posted, I don’t think the buyer’s entitled to any compensation. However, as ridiculous as his request appears to be, for someone to report him to the campus authorities for simply contacting them, would be equally, if not even more ridiculous. “Please take a step back and breathe”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Everyone has their own moral compass. But, I would personally feel obligated for the return if the buyer proved to me to my satisfaction that the coin was the same. To those parse the word genuine, its clear that it is NOT a genuine MS 1884 3CN. It is something else. It is not a counterfeit, but I doubt very seriously there was any concern about that being the case anyway. The difference in value between the Proof and MS is most certainly why the buyer wanted the return guarantee.
Legally, its likely that a court would find in his favor if he were to sue, but that's unlikely to happen. Morally, you chose the words "unrestricted return guarantee" and if it were me, I would live with them and make it right.
@jmlanzaf said:
In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. I sold the label with the coin. The buyer wanted a guarantee and so I wrote him a note that indicated the he had "unrestricted" return privileges if it was found to "not be genuine". [I really don't remember the details but the guarantee says "genuine" not MS.]
Flash forward 13 years. The buyer sold his collection. His buyer allegedly sent the coin to NGC and it came back Proof 62 (straight grade). He returned it and my buyer sent it back to ANACS where it straight graded Proof 61.
So, he contacted me to request that I buy it back because of my guarantee.
Opinions?
My problem is that I can't even verify if it's the same coin. I changed photo hosts and don't have ebay photos from 13 years ago. I'm suspicious because the coin I sold was obviously cleaned and I can't believe it would have straight graded at either ANACS or NGC much less both. On the other hand, I also can't prove that it's not the same coin. After all, the buyer did keep my note for 13 years
What would you do?
Updated to include pictures sent by my former customer:
You can now see and read my original guarantee. He has included pictures of the coin in its current holder along with a PCGS PR62 and NGC PR61 label from his and his customer's attempts to get it back in an MS holder.
So, I had emailed the buyer and asked about splitting the price difference. He paid $534 in 2009. The coin in the new holder is worth $260 today. I asked if he would sell it back at $400. Essentially, we both lose $140 on the coin. He rejected the offer. His response:
" Hi Joseph, Thanks for the offer. I do appreciate it but... I truthfully do not have any hard feeling toward you. And I really do not mean any of this to be considered disparaging against you. When I bought the coin already broken out of its holder, I knew of the possibility of the label not matching the coin, but I accepted your word and your letter guaranteeing it was the very same coin and that it was a business strike (that is what I understood your guarantee to mean), I believed you then and I still believe you now. The way ANACS worded the description on their packing slip I am suspicious that they realized their old resources allowed them the wrong interpretation of the coin but with more information that time brings they have changed their determination (but would not consider an insurance refund due to it being broken out). I think there are 2 possibilities and the one just mentioned being the most likely. The other possibility is that the coin was not the one originally in the broken out holder. And I am 100% certain I got the same coin back I sent to my previous buyer. As I just said, I don't think this possibility is the case.
It just comes down to what you feel is the right thing for you to do. What ever you decide I am ok with. Either honor your guarantee even within this convoluted situation, or don't because of this convoluted situation. I have way more into this coin than the $534 I paid you for it 13 years ago. I hope you choose to pay me $534 for it, but if not ok and no hard feelings. Thanks again for your consideration."
This smells rotten.how do you think pcgs or ngc would handle it if 13 years ago you sent in a coin and now discovered something " new"
Seems like a total screw job .let the seller beware and never hand write a guarantee like that on such an old coin.
This would never stand up in court.
I would sat after 60 days he could have asked for a refund not a whole decade!! That's like returning a car after putting 100k miles on it and saying I don't like it anymore .ugh good luck
@jmlanzaf said:
In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. I sold the label with the coin. The buyer wanted a guarantee and so I wrote him a note that indicated the he had "unrestricted" return privileges if it was found to "not be genuine". [I really don't remember the details but the guarantee says "genuine" not MS.]
Flash forward 13 years. The buyer sold his collection. His buyer allegedly sent the coin to NGC and it came back Proof 62 (straight grade). He returned it and my buyer sent it back to ANACS where it straight graded Proof 61.
So, he contacted me to request that I buy it back because of my guarantee.
Opinions?
My problem is that I can't even verify if it's the same coin. I changed photo hosts and don't have ebay photos from 13 years ago. I'm suspicious because the coin I sold was obviously cleaned and I can't believe it would have straight graded at either ANACS or NGC much less both. On the other hand, I also can't prove that it's not the same coin. After all, the buyer did keep my note for 13 years
What would you do?
Updated to include pictures sent by my former customer:
You can now see and read my original guarantee. He has included pictures of the coin in its current holder along with a PCGS PR62 and NGC PR61 label from his and his customer's attempts to get it back in an MS holder.
So, I had emailed the buyer and asked about splitting the price difference. He paid $534 in 2009. The coin in the new holder is worth $260 today. I asked if he would sell it back at $400. Essentially, we both lose $140 on the coin. He rejected the offer. His response:
" Hi Joseph, Thanks for the offer. I do appreciate it but... I truthfully do not have any hard feeling toward you. And I really do not mean any of this to be considered disparaging against you. When I bought the coin already broken out of its holder, I knew of the possibility of the label not matching the coin, but I accepted your word and your letter guaranteeing it was the very same coin and that it was a business strike (that is what I understood your guarantee to mean), I believed you then and I still believe you now. The way ANACS worded the description on their packing slip I am suspicious that they realized their old resources allowed them the wrong interpretation of the coin but with more information that time brings they have changed their determination (but would not consider an insurance refund due to it being broken out). I think there are 2 possibilities and the one just mentioned being the most likely. The other possibility is that the coin was not the one originally in the broken out holder. And I am 100% certain I got the same coin back I sent to my previous buyer. As I just said, I don't think this possibility is the case.
It just comes down to what you feel is the right thing for you to do. What ever you decide I am ok with. Either honor your guarantee even within this convoluted situation, or don't because of this convoluted situation. I have way more into this coin than the $534 I paid you for it 13 years ago. I hope you choose to pay me $534 for it, but if not ok and no hard feelings. Thanks again for your consideration."
This smells rotten.how do you think pcgs or ngc would handle it if 13 years ago you sent in a coin and now discovered something " new"
Seems like a total screw job .let the seller beware and never hand write a guarantee like that on such an old coin.
This would never stand up in court.
I would sat after 60 days he could have asked for a refund not a whole decade!! That's like returning a car after putting 100k miles on it and saying I don't like it anymore .ugh good luck
PCGS would make it right regardless of how much time passed. It is not clear that it would not stand up in court, and its NOTHING like returning a car after putting 100K miles on it.
@jmlanzaf said:
In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. I sold the label with the coin. The buyer wanted a guarantee and so I wrote him a note that indicated the he had "unrestricted" return privileges if it was found to "not be genuine". [I really don't remember the details but the guarantee says "genuine" not MS.]
Flash forward 13 years. The buyer sold his collection. His buyer allegedly sent the coin to NGC and it came back Proof 62 (straight grade). He returned it and my buyer sent it back to ANACS where it straight graded Proof 61.
So, he contacted me to request that I buy it back because of my guarantee.
Opinions?
My problem is that I can't even verify if it's the same coin. I changed photo hosts and don't have ebay photos from 13 years ago. I'm suspicious because the coin I sold was obviously cleaned and I can't believe it would have straight graded at either ANACS or NGC much less both. On the other hand, I also can't prove that it's not the same coin. After all, the buyer did keep my note for 13 years
What would you do?
Updated to include pictures sent by my former customer:
You can now see and read my original guarantee. He has included pictures of the coin in its current holder along with a PCGS PR62 and NGC PR61 label from his and his customer's attempts to get it back in an MS holder.
So, I had emailed the buyer and asked about splitting the price difference. He paid $534 in 2009. The coin in the new holder is worth $260 today. I asked if he would sell it back at $400. Essentially, we both lose $140 on the coin. He rejected the offer. His response:
" Hi Joseph, Thanks for the offer. I do appreciate it but... I truthfully do not have any hard feeling toward you. And I really do not mean any of this to be considered disparaging against you. When I bought the coin already broken out of its holder, I knew of the possibility of the label not matching the coin, but I accepted your word and your letter guaranteeing it was the very same coin and that it was a business strike (that is what I understood your guarantee to mean), I believed you then and I still believe you now. The way ANACS worded the description on their packing slip I am suspicious that they realized their old resources allowed them the wrong interpretation of the coin but with more information that time brings they have changed their determination (but would not consider an insurance refund due to it being broken out). I think there are 2 possibilities and the one just mentioned being the most likely. The other possibility is that the coin was not the one originally in the broken out holder. And I am 100% certain I got the same coin back I sent to my previous buyer. As I just said, I don't think this possibility is the case.
It just comes down to what you feel is the right thing for you to do. What ever you decide I am ok with. Either honor your guarantee even within this convoluted situation, or don't because of this convoluted situation. I have way more into this coin than the $534 I paid you for it 13 years ago. I hope you choose to pay me $534 for it, but if not ok and no hard feelings. Thanks again for your consideration."
This smells rotten.how do you think pcgs or ngc would handle it if 13 years ago you sent in a coin and now discovered something " new"
Seems like a total screw job .let the seller beware and never hand write a guarantee like that on such an old coin.
This would never stand up in court.
I would sat after 60 days he could have asked for a refund not a whole decade!! That's like returning a car after putting 100k miles on it and saying I don't like it anymore .ugh good luck
How a grading company would handle it is irrelevant (since they don’t sell coins) and a moot point, as the coin wasn’t even holdered when it was sold. And the car analogy doesn’t hold up because the car’s value would be much lower, due to use.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think we're at the point where the only reasonable thing to do is set up an in-person meeting with one of those i'm here help me dingers, but the dinger is attached to an explosive charge so when he rings it, it blows off half his face
@jmlanzaf said:
In 2009, I sold an 1884 three cent nickel that had been broken out of an ANACS MS60 details (cleaned) holder. I sold the label with the coin. The buyer wanted a guarantee and so I wrote him a note that indicated the he had "unrestricted" return privileges if it was found to "not be genuine". [I really don't remember the details but the guarantee says "genuine" not MS.]
Flash forward 13 years. The buyer sold his collection. His buyer allegedly sent the coin to NGC and it came back Proof 62 (straight grade). He returned it and my buyer sent it back to ANACS where it straight graded Proof 61.
So, he contacted me to request that I buy it back because of my guarantee.
Opinions?
My problem is that I can't even verify if it's the same coin. I changed photo hosts and don't have ebay photos from 13 years ago. I'm suspicious because the coin I sold was obviously cleaned and I can't believe it would have straight graded at either ANACS or NGC much less both. On the other hand, I also can't prove that it's not the same coin. After all, the buyer did keep my note for 13 years
What would you do?
Updated to include pictures sent by my former customer:
You can now see and read my original guarantee. He has included pictures of the coin in its current holder along with a PCGS PR62 and NGC PR61 label from his and his customer's attempts to get it back in an MS holder.
So, I had emailed the buyer and asked about splitting the price difference. He paid $534 in 2009. The coin in the new holder is worth $260 today. I asked if he would sell it back at $400. Essentially, we both lose $140 on the coin. He rejected the offer. His response:
" Hi Joseph, Thanks for the offer. I do appreciate it but... I truthfully do not have any hard feeling toward you. And I really do not mean any of this to be considered disparaging against you. When I bought the coin already broken out of its holder, I knew of the possibility of the label not matching the coin, but I accepted your word and your letter guaranteeing it was the very same coin and that it was a business strike (that is what I understood your guarantee to mean), I believed you then and I still believe you now. The way ANACS worded the description on their packing slip I am suspicious that they realized their old resources allowed them the wrong interpretation of the coin but with more information that time brings they have changed their determination (but would not consider an insurance refund due to it being broken out). I think there are 2 possibilities and the one just mentioned being the most likely. The other possibility is that the coin was not the one originally in the broken out holder. And I am 100% certain I got the same coin back I sent to my previous buyer. As I just said, I don't think this possibility is the case.
It just comes down to what you feel is the right thing for you to do. What ever you decide I am ok with. Either honor your guarantee even within this convoluted situation, or don't because of this convoluted situation. I have way more into this coin than the $534 I paid you for it 13 years ago. I hope you choose to pay me $534 for it, but if not ok and no hard feelings. Thanks again for your consideration."
This smells rotten.how do you think pcgs or ngc would handle it if 13 years ago you sent in a coin and now discovered something " new"
Seems like a total screw job .let the seller beware and never hand write a guarantee like that on such an old coin.
This would never stand up in court.
I would sat after 60 days he could have asked for a refund not a whole decade!! That's like returning a car after putting 100k miles on it and saying I don't like it anymore .ugh good luck
PCGS would make it right regardless of how much time passed. It is not clear that it would not stand up in court, and its NOTHING like returning a car after putting 100K miles on it.
How would PCGS make it right, when the coin was already cracked out of its holder at the time it was sold? They certainly don’t guarantee that a cracked out coin will be reholdered with the same designation and grade it (supposedly) had when originally holdered.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It would be interesting to see what the auction description said. If it said coin sold as is with the ANACS label without making any other claims about it then the authenticity guarantee is for the authenticity of the coin. If however the seller said that they guarantee the coin to be a business strike, that complicates matter since it can be construed as an implicit guarantee about the nature of business strike. In the first case it is buyers beware and the second case they are trusting the dealer’s judgement. The fact that the buyer enjoyed the coin for 13 years does not matter since the pride of ownership of a scarcer coin turned out to be not so much.
In this case it looks like since the buyer admitted they have no grounds for return, it means more or less they bought it at their risk. The seller seems to be a standup guy and is overthinking the whole affair. We need more people in the world like him.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Joe
Please take a step back and breathe.
After reading many of your posts, I find you usually very set in your answers. This is simple to me but it seems to have really caught you kinda off guard.
I am going to say “ the buyer is really out of it”. Absolutely don’t return money.
There’s way too many variables and it’s ridiculous for the buyer to even present such a silly question.
Not a chance I’d believe anything said by them.
For those worried about retribution I believe there’s many things you can do. If someone contacted me at work, with such a ridiculous request, I would throw a fit and report them to the campus authorities.
I hope you can decide as I really don’t like it when you are confused. I’m not used to seeing you anything but certain about your answers.
13 years is way ridiculous.
Good luck 😉🙀🦫
As I’ve already posted, I don’t think the buyer’s entitled to any compensation. However, as ridiculous as his request appears to be, for someone to report him to the campus authorities for simply contacting them, would be equally, if not even more ridiculous. “Please take a step back and breathe”.😉
My suggestion is if there’s any problems from buyer continuing email to his job.
Would you like it? 😉🙀🦫
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Joe
Please take a step back and breathe.
After reading many of your posts, I find you usually very set in your answers. This is simple to me but it seems to have really caught you kinda off guard.
I am going to say “ the buyer is really out of it”. Absolutely don’t return money.
There’s way too many variables and it’s ridiculous for the buyer to even present such a silly question.
Not a chance I’d believe anything said by them.
For those worried about retribution I believe there’s many things you can do. If someone contacted me at work, with such a ridiculous request, I would throw a fit and report them to the campus authorities.
I hope you can decide as I really don’t like it when you are confused. I’m not used to seeing you anything but certain about your answers.
13 years is way ridiculous.
Good luck 😉🙀🦫
As I’ve already posted, I don’t think the buyer’s entitled to any compensation. However, as ridiculous as his request appears to be, for someone to report him to the campus authorities for simply contacting them, would be equally, if not even more ridiculous. “Please take a step back and breathe”.😉
My suggestion is if there’s any problems from buyer continuing email to his job.
Would you like it? 😉🙀🦫
Below is what you originally posted.
“For those worried about retribution I believe there’s many things you can do. If someone contacted me at work, with such a ridiculous request, I would throw a fit and report them to the campus authorities.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Alltheabove76 said:
Everyone has their own moral compass. But, I would personally feel obligated for the return if the buyer proved to me to my satisfaction that the coin was the same. To those parse the word genuine, its clear that it is NOT a genuine MS 1884 3CN. It is something else. It is not a counterfeit, but I doubt very seriously there was any concern about that being the case anyway. The difference in value between the Proof and MS is most certainly why the buyer wanted the return guarantee.
Legally, its likely that a court would find in his favor if he were to sue, but that's unlikely to happen. Morally, you chose the words "unrestricted return guarantee" and if it were me, I would live with them and make it right.
IMHO, this is a key component of the OP's dilemma. How do you accomplish this?
You, and 3 TPGs, believe that the coin, right now, is a proof with a straight grade. ANACS thought that the coin, in the past, was a business strike that had been cleaned.
Is it the same coin? This means that ANACS got it wrong years ago. Or is it a different coin?
Note - I am not, repeat NOT, suggesting that anyone involved did anything nefarious.
@Alltheabove76 said:
Everyone has their own moral compass. But, I would personally feel obligated for the return if the buyer proved to me to my satisfaction that the coin was the same. To those parse the word genuine, its clear that it is NOT a genuine MS 1884 3CN. It is something else. It is not a counterfeit, but I doubt very seriously there was any concern about that being the case anyway. The difference in value between the Proof and MS is most certainly why the buyer wanted the return guarantee.
Legally, its likely that a court would find in his favor if he were to sue, but that's unlikely to happen. Morally, you chose the words "unrestricted return guarantee" and if it were me, I would live with them and make it right.
I'm guessing you're not a lawyer. There is zero chance that he would win in court because he's already stipulated that he believes it to be genuine and the coin that belongs with the label. He's also stipulated that he knows it wouldn't hold up in court. I don't even know that he could prove its the same coin as he sold it himself at one point.
@Alltheabove76 said:
Everyone has their own moral compass. But, I would personally feel obligated for the return if the buyer proved to me to my satisfaction that the coin was the same. To those parse the word genuine, its clear that it is NOT a genuine MS 1884 3CN. It is something else. It is not a counterfeit, but I doubt very seriously there was any concern about that being the case anyway. The difference in value between the Proof and MS is most certainly why the buyer wanted the return guarantee.
Legally, its likely that a court would find in his favor if he were to sue, but that's unlikely to happen. Morally, you chose the words "unrestricted return guarantee" and if it were me, I would live with them and make it right.
IMHO, this is a key component of the OP's dilemma. How do you accomplish this?
You, and 3 TPGs, believe that the coin, right now, is a proof with a straight grade. ANACS thought that the coin, in the past, was a business strike that had been cleaned.
Is it the same coin? This means that ANACS got it wrong years ago. Or is it a different coin?
Note - I am not, repeat NOT, suggesting that anyone involved did anything nefarious.
These have always been tough to determine strike. ANACS may well have had a different set of criteria 13 years ago. The coin may have toned which is why it no longer got the "cleaned" designation.
I don't know that anyone even has pictures of the coin from 13 years ago.
A couple other thoughts, is there any evidence he was liquidating his whole collection? What kind of buyer has a rare date (as he may have believed) esoteric coin like this sitting around gathering dust uncertified, then suddenly decides to send it in 3X? The definition of insanity, doing the same thing expecting different results. Is there evidence that the rest of his coins were certified and he was selling them about the same time? All the burdens of evidence are on the side of the buyer.
Isn't the statute of limitations on commercial transactions one year, unless the contract is renegotiated? I don't believe your giving an open ended legal contract really changes that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations
@logger7 said:
A couple other thoughts, is there any evidence he was liquidating his whole collection? What kind of buyer has a rare date (as he may have believed) esoteric coin like this sitting around gathering dust uncertified, then suddenly decides to send it in 3X? The definition of insanity, doing the same thing expecting different results. Is there evidence that the rest of his coins were certified and he was selling them about the same time? All the burdens of evidence are on the side of the buyer.
Isn't the statute of limitations on commercial transactions one year, unless the contract is renegotiated? I don't believe your giving an open ended legal contract really changes that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations
It probably depends at least somewhat on the state laws but I believe you are right. That's a good point.
There is so much wrong with this. First, it's been 13 years. Second, the coin was authenticated as genuine at least 4 times, thus the burden of the guarantee has been satisfied multiple times. Third, the buyer sold it to someone else, at which point the guarantee should also be moot. Fourth, the buyer took the risk of buying a raw coin. Fifth he was offered to buy the coin back at higher than current price point. Depreciation of coin value was his problem once the purchase was finalized. Buying anything for more than its face value is a risk... It's value could go up or down!
No court of law would rule in this guy's favor 13 years later after the coin was identified as authentic 4 times, as well as being resold. This guy's seriously needs to learn a lesson and swallow it. Will he learn a lesson? Probably not by the way he's acting. Any reasonable person would have taken the unnecessarily generous offer the op gave him and run.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
MFeld
That’s what I posted. What’s your point?
My point is that the below copied post of yours sounds like it would be a severe overreaction. No matter how ridiculous the request from the buyer, it wouldn’t merit a report to campus authorities.
“For those worried about retribution I believe there’s many things you can do. if someone contacted me at work, with such a ridiculous request, I would throw a fit and report them to the campus authorities.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t let people push me around. That’s what I’m seeing here. It’s ridiculous what is being proposed. 13 years? I have a problem with a forum situation being taken to someone’s place of work .
You and I don’t agree. That’s ok.
I don’t see any point in this disagreement. It’s Joes situation and I’m sure he’ll find a solution.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
I don’t let people push me around. That’s what I’m seeing here. It’s ridiculous what is being proposed. 13 years? I have a problem with a forum situation being taken to someone’s place of work .
You and I don’t agree. That’s ok.
I don’t see any point in this disagreement. It’s Joes situation and I’m sure he’ll find a solution.
The thread wasn’t about a forum situation, it was an eBay transaction. And as best I can tell, the buyer merely emailed the seller and certainly isn’t pushing him around. If I’m mistaken about that, I hope to be corrected. At least we agree that his request was ridiculous.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
I don’t let people push me around. That’s what I’m seeing here. It’s ridiculous what is being proposed. 13 years? I have a problem with a forum situation being taken to someone’s place of work .
You and I don’t agree. That’s ok.
I don’t see any point in this disagreement. It’s Joes situation and I’m sure he’ll find a solution.
The thread wasn’t about a forum situation, it was an eBay transaction. And as best I can tell, the buyer merely emailed the seller and certainly isn’t pushing him around. If I’m mistaken about that, I hope to be corrected. At least we agree that his request was ridiculous.
I don't think the buyer has been unreasonable. The request seems odd given the sequence of events. However, his tone has been amiable and reasonable. He's made no threats or issued any ultimatums.
I bought part of a Large Cent collection that contained clippings, scans from books, pop estimates, personal notes, packaged raw in those mini envelopes.... old school.
How do you know this collection hasn't been purchased as part of an estate?
Possibly heirs trying to liquidate?
Buyers regret... when a cherrypick turns into sour grapes.
Given your level of angst, just pay the asking price and move on...
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
The thread wasn’t about a forum situation, it was an eBay transaction. And as best I can tell, the buyer merely emailed the seller and certainly isn’t pushing him around. If I’m mistaken about that, I hope to be corrected. At least we agree that his request was ridiculous.
I don't think the buyer has been unreasonable. The request seems odd given the sequence of events. However, his tone has been amiable and reasonable. He's made no threats or issued any ultimatums.
He told you to either refund him in full or not at all. Sounds like an ultimatum to me.
I'm telling you... you've been more than fair with the guy by making the now-rejected $400 offer, which is more than the coin's current market value, 13 years after the fact. He's now literally told you it's all or nothing.
Enough with the guilt already.
Copy my sample letter from earlier in the thread
Make the appropriate tweaks, send it, block him on eBay and be done with this.
Seriously, I'm legit trying to help you here.
This deal has gone on too long.
13 YEARS too long.
Depends upon how much influence you had in his decision to buy the coin as a MS coin thereby paying the higher price. Since most of what transpired between you two was not documented and agreed upon before the sale transpired, what other recourse does the buyer have other than pleading to your guilty conscience? lol
But that's what you two need to sort out, letting the guy know that you did not influence his decision. But maybe you did. But not knowing what all was said, it'll only go back and forth with other hearsay claims. Splitting the difference was a practical solution and you should stick with that.....unless you can convince the guy otherwise. But it may be that the both of you played/are at fault, into the guy's decision......even after 13 years.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Comments
Not shocked he declined your offer to split the difference- that would require a reasonable person on the other end of the transaction (i.e., not the type of person that attempts to return a raw coin after 13 years). Count me on the side of those saying you don't owe him anything more at this point. That said, if it was bothering you enough that you were willing to go to $400, I would think it's worth the extra $134 to be done with it.
He could also be done with it by messaging the buyer that he won’t be accepting a return, not compensating him in any way, not engaging in any further communications and wishing him good luck.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To make an offer as generous as $400 in this situation indicates this is weighing on his conscience for whatever reason. $134 for a clear conscience seems worth it to me. But, of course, your tack is a good option as well.
This is the correct answer.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
I think there is risk of regret no matter which course of action you take. If you refund, you may always wonder if it’s actually the same coin you sold and you may have enabled bad buyer behavior by giving in to what most of us think is an unreasonable request. If you don’t refund, you may violate your own moral standards and continue to wonder what your intent was when you wrote the guarantee.
Because both choices present possible regret, I recommend you let a neutral third party decide (e.g. ANA mediation). That to me is the cheapest way to avoid feeling bad about the situation in the future - it places the burden of making the decision on another party.
You have presented an interesting moral dilemma and I appreciate you sharing and posting it here.
I still recommend that the buyer get a full refund because the buyer's interruption of genuine to include strike type is reasonable because of the cost difference between the strike types.
At minimum consider writing back to the buyer and state your position that your genuine guarantee was for the authenticity of the coin and not for grade or a proof strike or business strike. Acknowledge that there is a difference of opinion on the genuine guarantee, and you will keep your buyback offer on the table for 30 days. If the buyer does not accept your offer within 30 days, you will consider the transaction closed.
I think it's best to get the buyer off of your back.
He is not reasonable, but as said may cause you heartache, regardless of what he says now. $140 is likely not so much for most to end drama!.
I'm repeating that a real MS-60 details 3 cent is very expensive and rare. The proofs are common. He even could be playing games with a different coin, but it would be very disappointing to want a rare business strike and have a proof.
It's good to be the better person in hobby dealings to end the drama.
I know its not my $140 and if this sounds self righteous in any way, I apologize from inside my glass house.
This is a perfect case for Judge Judy! Tell the buyer to contact her and get on the show.....make for a good piece!
And the first question out of Judge Judy's mouth might be "Why would anyone EVER provide a guarantee for a cracked out coin, even one that comes with a label, that you didn't personally crack out?"
It's just possible that she would also point out that since the ANACS label which states the denomination, date, metal content, and type of striking was included with the coin, it would be implied that the guarantee would cover each/all of these aspects of the coin.
Do NOT refund this knucklehead. The whole thing is absurd, and as others have stated he lost whatever guarantee you gave him when he sold the piece and it didn't work out. Now the "no hard feelings, honor your guarantee or don't" BS? Aww shucks.
Tell him no, and watch him reveal his true self. I swear, you'll have an email full of foul language and insults.
You offered half, he wants it all...and now he gets nothing. End of story.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Not when all the guarantee said was “genuine” and that was all the buyer had requested.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
She wouldn't ask that because she knows. Yes, my guarantee was flawed. But, frankly, the flaws mostly work in my favor. The lack of a sunset provision is the biggest problem. But the guarantee specifies two things, neither of which mention strike. It guarantees "genuine" which we are all bound to by federal law. It also guarantees that the coin and label went together. The buyer, in fact, acknowledged that it is and he believes ANACS has changed their mind. It did not guarantee the grade or the strike.
The buyer, who is more reasonable than you, acknowledges that he had no legal leg to stand on. He's appealing to my personal code. That's why I'm still surprised that he wouldn't entertain the $400 offer which is $150 more than he could ever sell that coin for.
That said, I'm not sure what your point is. I've acknowledged the flaws. I'm trying to remedy the situation. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to do.
Other than calling me a criminal, I'm not sure what else you've contributed.
Original post retracted.
I sent an e-mail to ANACS, and asked for some specifics regarding their guarantee.
If they reply with anything relevant, I will share it here.
Concur
Thanks, but that wasn't my reason. I'm just really conflicted about it. The buyer admits that I don't legally owe him anything but he's appealing to my (guilty) conscience. He also believes that ANACS has changed their designation from 13 years ago.
Wow
I have always had a 2 week return privelege to avoid such a mess.
If you want end the misery - just Ignore / block him. It would cost him more to move against you if any court would consider such an absurdity. Do not answer any phone calls.
You say The coin has a MV of $260. What he paid for it in 2009 means nothing except for his tax filing (loss). If you want it back offer him 70 pct of $260. That’s a fair wholesale offer. Otherwise he can just go retail it on the bourse or eBay. What he is buried in it for is his problem.
After reading the first part of his letter - I would just block him, not answer any calls, ignore any memos. Life is stressful enough without being dragged down into his quagmire.
You've provided your own answer. It's just that conscience thing that's getting in the way.
I did not read the comments that way at all. People are just offering perspectives and scenarios.
It wasn't this comment. It was a previous comment.
Make a decision please. This thread is giving me a headache.
"It also guarantees that the coin and label went together. The buyer, in fact, acknowledged that it is and he believes ANACS has changed their mind. It did not guarantee the grade or the strike."
"The buyer acknowledges that he had no legal leg to stand on. He's appealing to my personal code. That's why I'm still surprised that he wouldn't entertain the $400 offer which is $150 more than he could ever sell that coin for."
"I'm just really conflicted about it. The buyer admits that I don't legally owe him anything but he's appealing to my (guilty) conscience. He also believes that ANACS has changed their designation from 13 years ago."
This person it trying to take advantage of your being a fair honest person.
They are perfectly fine with letting you take the loss rather than them.
It's one thing to be fair & honest but don't let someone take advantage of your good nature.
It's too bad your buyer doesn't have the same sense of fair play.
I am fair & honest and try to provide outstanding customer service even with the more difficult customers.
Many other very reputable dealers have responded saying you owe them nothing.
You have gone out of the way to provide outstanding customer service..... walk away.
I guess I don't understand why no one has considered this scenario, because I consider it much more likely. Most people seem to think that ANACS, @jmlanzaf , his customer, and the PCGS submitter all thought that the coin in the TrueView was a business strike, not a proof, and, further, that at least ANACS and @jmlanzaf thought that it was harshly cleaned.
We're also assuming that the customer may have held the coin for thirteen years before deciding to play shenanigans with this coin, as if it makes a lot of sense to send a known proof to both NGC and ANACS.
A scenario I like that requires no one to be stupid or to act in ways that don't make sense is that the customer enjoyed the coin for thirteen years and then sold a raw, cleaned, MS coin. That person then either sent a proof to PCGS or just cracked one out and pulled a switch on the customer who doesn't understand how his coin changed. Maybe doesn't even look close enough to see the changes.
None of this offers a suggestion as to how to handle the situation. For that I'm sorry.
Then he should go after ANACS for changing their mind. As has been said before there's no guarantee that it's even the same coin 13 years later!
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
This hadn't really crossed my mind since I was so set against a refund before getting to this idea, but you're spot on. I've had clearly bad actors on eBay try to pull fast ones (bogus SNAD cases) and eBay, in an attempt to placate me, has stepped in and provided a refund (and let the buyer keep the item) rather than have me go through the expense of taking it back with and the loss stemming from damage they imparted on the item. I'm happy to not take the loss, but I've complained bitterly to eBay that doing so will just encourage these buyers to do the same thing again to another seller, seeing as they got away with it the first time.
Joe
Please take a step back and breathe.
After reading many of your posts, I find you usually very set in your answers. This is simple to me but it seems to have really caught you kinda off guard.
I am going to say “ the buyer is really out of it”. Absolutely don’t return money.
There’s way too many variables and it’s ridiculous for the buyer to even present such a silly question.
Not a chance I’d believe anything said by them.
For those worried about retribution I believe there’s many things you can do. If someone contacted me at work, with such a ridiculous request, I would throw a fit and report them to the campus authorities.
I hope you can decide as I really don’t like it when you are confused. I’m not used to seeing you anything but certain about your answers.
13 years is way ridiculous.
Good luck 😉🙀🦫
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
As I’ve already posted, I don’t think the buyer’s entitled to any compensation. However, as ridiculous as his request appears to be, for someone to report him to the campus authorities for simply contacting them, would be equally, if not even more ridiculous. “Please take a step back and breathe”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Everyone has their own moral compass. But, I would personally feel obligated for the return if the buyer proved to me to my satisfaction that the coin was the same. To those parse the word genuine, its clear that it is NOT a genuine MS 1884 3CN. It is something else. It is not a counterfeit, but I doubt very seriously there was any concern about that being the case anyway. The difference in value between the Proof and MS is most certainly why the buyer wanted the return guarantee.
Legally, its likely that a court would find in his favor if he were to sue, but that's unlikely to happen. Morally, you chose the words "unrestricted return guarantee" and if it were me, I would live with them and make it right.
My Early Large Cents
@jmlanzaf
This smells rotten.how do you think pcgs or ngc would handle it if 13 years ago you sent in a coin and now discovered something " new"
Seems like a total screw job .let the seller beware and never hand write a guarantee like that on such an old coin.
This would never stand up in court.
I would sat after 60 days he could have asked for a refund not a whole decade!! That's like returning a car after putting 100k miles on it and saying I don't like it anymore .ugh good luck
PCGS would make it right regardless of how much time passed. It is not clear that it would not stand up in court, and its NOTHING like returning a car after putting 100K miles on it.
My Early Large Cents
How a grading company would handle it is irrelevant (since they don’t sell coins) and a moot point, as the coin wasn’t even holdered when it was sold. And the car analogy doesn’t hold up because the car’s value would be much lower, due to use.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think we're at the point where the only reasonable thing to do is set up an in-person meeting with one of those i'm here help me dingers, but the dinger is attached to an explosive charge so when he rings it, it blows off half his face
How would PCGS make it right, when the coin was already cracked out of its holder at the time it was sold? They certainly don’t guarantee that a cracked out coin will be reholdered with the same designation and grade it (supposedly) had when originally holdered.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It would be interesting to see what the auction description said. If it said coin sold as is with the ANACS label without making any other claims about it then the authenticity guarantee is for the authenticity of the coin. If however the seller said that they guarantee the coin to be a business strike, that complicates matter since it can be construed as an implicit guarantee about the nature of business strike. In the first case it is buyers beware and the second case they are trusting the dealer’s judgement. The fact that the buyer enjoyed the coin for 13 years does not matter since the pride of ownership of a scarcer coin turned out to be not so much.
In this case it looks like since the buyer admitted they have no grounds for return, it means more or less they bought it at their risk. The seller seems to be a standup guy and is overthinking the whole affair. We need more people in the world like him.
My suggestion is if there’s any problems from buyer continuing email to his job.
Would you like it? 😉🙀🦫
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Below is what you originally posted.
“For those worried about retribution I believe there’s many things you can do. If someone contacted me at work, with such a ridiculous request, I would throw a fit and report them to the campus authorities.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
IMHO, this is a key component of the OP's dilemma. How do you accomplish this?
You, and 3 TPGs, believe that the coin, right now, is a proof with a straight grade. ANACS thought that the coin, in the past, was a business strike that had been cleaned.
Is it the same coin? This means that ANACS got it wrong years ago. Or is it a different coin?
Note - I am not, repeat NOT, suggesting that anyone involved did anything nefarious.
I'm guessing you're not a lawyer. There is zero chance that he would win in court because he's already stipulated that he believes it to be genuine and the coin that belongs with the label. He's also stipulated that he knows it wouldn't hold up in court. I don't even know that he could prove its the same coin as he sold it himself at one point.
These have always been tough to determine strike. ANACS may well have had a different set of criteria 13 years ago. The coin may have toned which is why it no longer got the "cleaned" designation.
I don't know that anyone even has pictures of the coin from 13 years ago.
A couple other thoughts, is there any evidence he was liquidating his whole collection? What kind of buyer has a rare date (as he may have believed) esoteric coin like this sitting around gathering dust uncertified, then suddenly decides to send it in 3X? The definition of insanity, doing the same thing expecting different results. Is there evidence that the rest of his coins were certified and he was selling them about the same time? All the burdens of evidence are on the side of the buyer.
Isn't the statute of limitations on commercial transactions one year, unless the contract is renegotiated? I don't believe your giving an open ended legal contract really changes that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations
It probably depends at least somewhat on the state laws but I believe you are right. That's a good point.
There is so much wrong with this. First, it's been 13 years. Second, the coin was authenticated as genuine at least 4 times, thus the burden of the guarantee has been satisfied multiple times. Third, the buyer sold it to someone else, at which point the guarantee should also be moot. Fourth, the buyer took the risk of buying a raw coin. Fifth he was offered to buy the coin back at higher than current price point. Depreciation of coin value was his problem once the purchase was finalized. Buying anything for more than its face value is a risk... It's value could go up or down!
No court of law would rule in this guy's favor 13 years later after the coin was identified as authentic 4 times, as well as being resold. This guy's seriously needs to learn a lesson and swallow it. Will he learn a lesson? Probably not by the way he's acting. Any reasonable person would have taken the unnecessarily generous offer the op gave him and run.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
MFeld
That’s what I posted. What’s your point?
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
My point is that the below copied post of yours sounds like it would be a severe overreaction. No matter how ridiculous the request from the buyer, it wouldn’t merit a report to campus authorities.
“For those worried about retribution I believe there’s many things you can do. if someone contacted me at work, with such a ridiculous request, I would throw a fit and report them to the campus authorities.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t let people push me around. That’s what I’m seeing here. It’s ridiculous what is being proposed. 13 years? I have a problem with a forum situation being taken to someone’s place of work .
You and I don’t agree. That’s ok.
I don’t see any point in this disagreement. It’s Joes situation and I’m sure he’ll find a solution.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
The thread wasn’t about a forum situation, it was an eBay transaction. And as best I can tell, the buyer merely emailed the seller and certainly isn’t pushing him around. If I’m mistaken about that, I hope to be corrected. At least we agree that his request was ridiculous.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't think the buyer has been unreasonable. The request seems odd given the sequence of events. However, his tone has been amiable and reasonable. He's made no threats or issued any ultimatums.
I bought part of a Large Cent collection that contained clippings, scans from books, pop estimates, personal notes, packaged raw in those mini envelopes.... old school.
How do you know this collection hasn't been purchased as part of an estate?
Possibly heirs trying to liquidate?
Buyers regret... when a cherrypick turns into sour grapes.
Given your level of angst, just pay the asking price and move on...
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
jmlanzaf....how about a status update? Have you made a decision on what you intend to do?
You guaranteed the coin to be "genuine". And that is the extent of it.
Your buyer opted to submit it to the grading services, which confirmed this.
End of your guarantee's liability.
He told you to either refund him in full or not at all. Sounds like an ultimatum to me.
I'm telling you... you've been more than fair with the guy by making the now-rejected $400 offer, which is more than the coin's current market value, 13 years after the fact. He's now literally told you it's all or nothing.
Enough with the guilt already.
Copy my sample letter from earlier in the thread
Make the appropriate tweaks, send it, block him on eBay and be done with this.
Seriously, I'm legit trying to help you here.
This deal has gone on too long.
13 YEARS too long.
End it.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Depends upon how much influence you had in his decision to buy the coin as a MS coin thereby paying the higher price. Since most of what transpired between you two was not documented and agreed upon before the sale transpired, what other recourse does the buyer have other than pleading to your guilty conscience? lol
But that's what you two need to sort out, letting the guy know that you did not influence his decision. But maybe you did. But not knowing what all was said, it'll only go back and forth with other hearsay claims. Splitting the difference was a practical solution and you should stick with that.....unless you can convince the guy otherwise. But it may be that the both of you played/are at fault, into the guy's decision......even after 13 years.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection