Is this basically an MS65 Morgan?
MKUltra24
Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭
Hey everyone,
I got this 1889 Morgan Dollar from my uncle for Christmas and I noticed that it has both a + and a CAC sticker.
Does that means it’s about as close to MS65 as possible without actually being MS65?
I’m just asking because I’m curious how coins like this are valued since both the + and CAC imply it’s better than 64 but not quite 65.
Mainly I’m asking because I keep a record of all my coins and their approximate values (in case something happens to me) and I’m having trouble with this one because I’m not sure if I use the 64 value or 65 value.
Does anyone happen to know anything about + coins with CAC stickers and how they are valued by the community?
Thanks!
2
Comments
The CAC affirms it as a 64 not a 64+. It is, therefore, in the top 70% of 64s. How close it is to a 65, depends on who you ask.
Too many scuffs in the prime focal areas (and the reverse dig on the Eagle's breast doesn't help).
Nice coin, just not a GEM.
peacockcoins
When assessing coins, CAC ignores the “+”. So as far as they’re concerned, the coin is an A or B quality (but not C quality) MS64.
Some MS64’s and 64+’s are better than your example and others are worse. And for that matter, some 65’s are probably inferior to your coin, as well.
If you check auction prices, you will hopefully be able to see what 64+ CAC pieces have brought. Regardless, your coin is worth more than the typical MS64, but less than the average MS65.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
PCGS price guide has separate prices (and auction records) for plus grades. Easy enough to look up the auctions to see which coins are stickered.
Yeah I noticed that and the one to the right of the feathers. I still like the coin though xD. I think the toning looks classy and not too extreme.
Thanks for letting me know.
I didn’t know it was evaluated as a 64 by CAC. I thought CAC was evaluating it as a 64+ and saying it was in the top of 64+.
Well I learned something!
I still love the coin regardless of grade or sticker xD
Ah I didn’t think about that.
I just signed up for PCGS last month as a silver member and I’m still figuring out everything the site offers
https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1889-1/7188/64
I wish my relatives bought me coins like that for Christmas. They usually buy overpriced stuff with little value.
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Yeah my uncle is the only one in my family who is also a collector so he understands what coins I like and not to buy the overpriced stuff like most of the stuff currently available on the US Mint site.
I feel kind of bad that I got him socks for Christmas. They were NICE socks though. I got them at REI and they're nice and warm and thick yet comfortable.
I think the rest of my family knows better than to get me coins because they know I have a specific interest (Pre-WW2 American and Roman & Greek ancients) and it would be tough for them to find something I like.
Funnily enough my parents actually got me books for Christmas which is a much better choice than trying to find coins I'd like XD.
From the PCGS website.
"Plus Grades" exhibit exceptional eye appeal for the grade and constitute the top 30% of the coins in the grade."
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I already knew that part xD
Based on your previous posts, he’d have no way of knowing that you already knew that part.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yeah but I wasn’t asking about what + grade means.
I knew that + meant that a coin was in the top 30% of grade.
My question was if the CAC on top of the + grade meant the coin was even closer to 65 than just the + or CAC by themselves
Or if this coin is the same as an MS64+ without a CAC since the + on its own signifies it’s at the high end of the grade.
Basically I knew how + grades and CAC worked but I was asking how it all works out when you combine a + grade with a CAC since many coins have one or the other but it’s not as common to see both.
I know there was no way for him to know what I knew I just told him I knew so that no one misunderstands my question.
I only mentioned the PCGS quote to show that the plus has more to do with eye appeal than it does with grade (ie, being closer to 65). It doesn't say the plus is the top 30% of the grade, it says it is the top 30% of the coins in the grade. That is basically the same definition of the green bean, an A or B coin within the grade, not the next grade up.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I'm wondering what percentage of Morgan buyers would pay for the plus or the bean.
It just sits there like a lump of mud.
My grade for the coin is "blah", more specifically 64.3 "B".
edited to add: The below image is MUCH better. Not dull and muddy, Nice satin frost. I can see it in a 65 holder. I now grade it 64.5 "B" and a burial for anyone paying 65 bid minus 30%. As long as some buyers continue to fetishize the illogical and quixiotic conflation of "plus and a bean", and I'm not holding my breath, some will buy the label and the bean, not the coin. When I was actively dealing "stuff", I would never have suggested this coin were special in any way. A bag of these broke (earlier this century). Many of the coins were nicer, and most important for a common date, more viscerally attractive.
Incomplete analysis, but I've already written more paragraphs than there are Benjamins.
Good question. any generalized answer is likely helpful theoretically, but might be functionally useless. It's a coin-by-coin judgment.
The plus+ and the CAC should make it about a $200 coin, about the same price as a MS-65.
A little different photos
Neither indicates the coin is a 65… why do they combine to make the coin as valuable as a 65? If someone is going to pay 65 money, wouldn’t it make sense for them to get an actual 65?
Why do people do half of the crazy things they do?
Edited to add: Haven't you heard of magic beans?
Are those my coin? Where did you get those photos?
LOL
I snuck in your house while you weren't looking.
Well the coin looks better in the ones you posted than the ones I posted.
You just went and checked to see if it's still there didn't you?
I know I’ve seen coins with a gold bean sell for even more than the next grade up.
I remember seeing an MS63 Seated Liberty Dollar with a gold CAC bean and it sold for the price of an MS65.
But I know the gold bean is different.
Nah it’s in my safe in my workshop and I don’t want to go out in the freezing rain to walk to my shop. :P
Do you want me to tell you the combination?
That’s because the gold bean indicates the coin is a higher grade than the one given. It's apples and oranges to a green bean.
is MK your nephew?
No they’re just being silly xD
its a sexy 64 with a bean, lover her till you dont,lol
A nice Morgan, looks properly graded (64) - with only slight tarnish. I would not give it a + for the tarnish... or for any significant amount of eye appeal.... JMO - obviously, the graders think it is attractive. Cheers, RickO
It looks much better in these pics compared to the rubbish ones in my OP xD.
It's not quite an MS-65. The dullish spot on the cheek takes it out in my opinion.
When a very knowledgeable member provides good information, it may be better to just say thanks, rather than risk alienating them (and others). He was only taking the time to be helpful. While you may already know the info, 1) he didn't know that, and 2) the info may be useful to other novice collectors.
Just some thoughts to consider
it looks 64 to me
Tremendous pictures guys.
No need to have these coins in hand to grade them.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Nope.
Not really, when it's that type of coin and the pictures are good ones, like in this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
When I said I knew that I wasn't trying to be rude or snarky about it. I only said I knew that because I didn't want people to think that my question was about not understanding what the green bean meant. I've had that happen before in other posts where I ask a question and someone misunderstands what I'm asking and then others misunderstand what I was trying to ask about.
If it came across as rude, ungrateful or snarky I apologize. That was never my intent.
Yup! It is a 64 but it's just at the high end of 64.
No - the grade on holder is 64+ for 65 u need it in a 65 holder. CAC sticker means it a or b coin for the grade imo. The grade on holder 64+ is the grade. Would not sell less than grade on holder.
Very close to 65 but alas no cigar.
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I was previous owner of this dollar sold to, if memory serves me correctly, Liz Coggan at the ANA. I purchased it raw 11/13/2017 then had it graded in May 2018 where it got 64+ right out of the shoot. It has only been graded once (no resubmissions). It was purchased raw from Illinois. It is a top-end 64 with too much scratch to be a full 65. Nice satiny coin. I believe the eagle breast hit kills the 65 idea. Liz likes to CAC coins so she probably got the green sticker.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
Oh wow that's crazy that someone who owned this coin before me was able to identify it.
I've noticed that the MS65 example PCGS uses on their own website also has similar scratches to the one this one has on the breast.
The hits on the example coin are lighter scuffs and outside the prime focal area. The hit in the eagle on your coin is stronger and right in the prime focal area. Hits in the prime focal area will count more against the coin. Also of note, the example coin looks to have a cleaner cheek and obverse overall.
I think it’s about a $250 coin perhaps a tad more IMO.
Per CF MS64+ MV is $185, $325 MS65.
In pricing for retail would bump up to at least $250 (sticker mania) and wb negotiable based on what had in it. It definitely is very nice for the grade if not PQ. The hit on eagles breast (rev) would appear to be a major factor in it not making 65. The hit (rev) rt of wing also a factor.
A nice coin for a 64... Awesome gift!
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Fair point. Well at least I learned something from this coin and post
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I don’t ever plan on selling it but I do like to keep documentation of the value of my coins in case anything happens to me so my family doesn’t get ripped off.
Normally it’s pretty straightforward but this was a unique kind of coin with both a + and a CAC so it was a bit trickier to figure out.
I could easily research sold listings (which I did) but I mostly found MS64+ without a CAC and I wasn’t sure if the CAC changes anything. 64+ vs 64+ CAC.
Rumor has it there is a gold bean too! Imagine trying to factor that. xD
Thanks ColJessup! I appreciate your informative post and the time you too to respond to my question
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I wish I could take really good coin pics like that xD
Now I know obviously if someone is paying 65 prices they’re going to go for an actual 65.
But I was just asking like how far below that 65 is mine?
To be clear I plan on keeping this coin forever as it is a cherished gift but I’m curious to learn as part of my general knowledge of coin collecting.
But just so I can understand say a 64 is $150 and a 65 is $300. If someone is going to pay $300 they’ll go for the 65. But would this coin be closer price wise to the 65 such as $260 or closer to the 64 like $180?
It seems to me like 64+ CAC would be pretty close to 65 price wise even if obviously the 65 would always be higher. But I don’t like to assume things because then I make a you know what of myself so I was curious what others thought.