@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
I don’t know of any coins that are bought for “5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.” No need to exaggerate to try to make your point.
You don't know of any coins where a one point difference in grade results in a 5x premium?
Not based on CAC. Grading, including CAC is NEVER one person's opinion.
So you're essentially saying that JA has never been the sole person involved in the decision to bean a coin or not? I'll take that bet!
He may or may not. I'm not aware of any example where he overruled a unanimous no vote of the evaluators.
If he ever overruled a unanimous vote, I bet he changed a yes to a no, not the other way around
I'm also not aware of any coin where a green CAC raises the price by a factor of 5.
First, I never said a CAC sticker resulted in a 5x premium. But you're missing the point, the point being a one point difference in a grade (and whether it's one individual or a consensus of three is besides the point), and that one point is based on the insignificant issues thar separate a 66 from a 67 (and you can argue there significance until you're blue in the face, they are not) its still missing the forest for the trees.
You're on a CAC thread and then you came out with the 5x on one man's opinion. Whether you meant CAC or PCGS, you are still completely incorrect.
And if you want to debate 1 point price spreads, either pull up one of the hundreds of threads on that or start your own. This is a CAC thread
Take the "L", buddy.
Don't start with this is a CAC thread. What I wrote about 5x premiums was specific to one point differences in grade. Don't conflate the two.
That is not what you originally wrote. You mentioned one man's opinion of grade. No assigned grade is one man's opinion, ever.
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
Look at what you wrote which was in response to a statement about CAC. You can try and change your statement now, but it pretty clearly was originally a statement about CAC.
It's also irrelevant. Make it about 1 point in grade and it STILL isn't one man's opinion.
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
I don’t know of any coins that are bought for “5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.” No need to exaggerate to try to make your point.
You don't know of any coins where a one point difference in grade results in a 5x premium?
Not based on CAC. Grading, including CAC is NEVER one person's opinion.
So you're essentially saying that JA has never been the sole person involved in the decision to bean a coin or not? I'll take that bet!
He may or may not. I'm not aware of any example where he overruled a unanimous no vote of the evaluators.
If he ever overruled a unanimous vote, I bet he changed a yes to a no, not the other way around
I'm also not aware of any coin where a green CAC raises the price by a factor of 5.
First, I never said a CAC sticker resulted in a 5x premium. But you're missing the point, the point being a one point difference in a grade (and whether it's one individual or a consensus of three is besides the point), and that one point is based on the insignificant issues thar separate a 66 from a 67 (and you can argue there significance until you're blue in the face, they are not) its still missing the forest for the trees.
You're on a CAC thread and then you came out with the 5x on one man's opinion. Whether you meant CAC or PCGS, you are still completely incorrect.
And if you want to debate 1 point price spreads, either pull up one of the hundreds of threads on that or start your own. This is a CAC thread
Take the "L", buddy.
Don't start with this is a CAC thread. What I wrote about 5x premiums was specific to one point differences in grade. Don't conflate the two.
That is not what you originally wrote. You mentioned one man's opinion of grade. No assigned grade is one man's opinion, ever.
Nothing to add. I just want to see how tiny the font will go.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
“I don’t like CAC because one man should not have that much influence over the entire U.S. coin market. He’s an expert, but he is not perfect. “
Bill it’s the “market” that apparently says he indeed has that much influence on the entire coin market .
Not the man himself . All he did was create a company.
This shows that it’s over. For thinking people the U.S. coin market is dead. You say you hide behind “the market.” No you hide behind CAC and the man who runs runs it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
For thinking people the U.S. coin market is dead. You say you hide behind “the market.” No you hide behind CAC and the man who runs runs it.
Not that you want advice from me, but when you make statements like “For thinking people the U.S. coin market is dead.”, you then drastically reduce your own credibility for everything else you say!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
The choir continues to sing and circle the wagons. You win. I am mostly done with U.S. coins.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
“I don’t like CAC because one man should not have that much influence over the entire U.S. coin market. He’s an expert, but he is not perfect. “
Bill it’s the “market” that apparently says he indeed has that much influence on the entire coin market .
Not the man himself . All he did was create a company.
And I think Bill's point is the market has gone crazy.
My main point is collectors being willing to fork over huge premiums for a one point difference in grade (established by one person or a consensu of three really doesn't matter) demonstrates valuations are insane (my opinion). You have a beautiful MS-65 Saint Guaden's that you pay $x and one or two less contact marks in one location bumps the value up 5x? This isn't a question of can people spend their money as they please. They certainly are. I just question why those marks have become so important to justify that 5x premium.
To use the rocket science analogy, if I'm sending a rocket from here to Mars and my trajectory is off by 1 degree the project is a failure (probably a lot less than 1 degree). Absent the outrageous premiums what have I missed in having a 66 versus a 65? The tpg companies and CAC aren't the problem. Collectors created a need and they stepped in to fill it.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
“I don’t like CAC because one man should not have that much influence over the entire U.S. coin market. He’s an expert, but he is not perfect. “
Bill it’s the “market” that apparently says he indeed has that much influence on the entire coin market .
Not the man himself . All he did was create a company.
This shows that it’s over. For thinking people the U.S. coin market is dead. You say you hide behind “the market.” No you hide behind CAC and the man who runs runs it.
I just think this is unnecessarily insulting to people who like CAC.
It's not either/or. I'm quite comfortable buying raw coins. That doesn't mean that I don't also buy slabbed coins. And my slabs come with and without CAC.
Does that make me a thinking man or a non-thinking man?
I had a friend who grew to dislike slabs and auction archives. He said it leveled the playing field with people who had less experience and knowledge. Prior to the internet and slabs, you could profit from your eye and your accumulated knowledge of the market. Now, 90% of the time you read the slab and search auction archives.
He wasn't wrong. But you could also argue that grocery stores lowered the mating advantages of people who could hunt and fish. It's progress.
When I needed a new garbage disposal, I watched a 30 minute video on YouTube and did it myself. Plumbers probably hate the internet.
There's a lot of modernity that I dislike. But you adjust and move on. Word processors completely eliminated secretaries. Grading companies decrease the need to have a professional eye. That's not a completely bad thing.
“The same also goes for owners of ungraded coins, who feel they need to get them graded. In each case, they “risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers.” It’s a fact of numismatic life, but I don’t blame the grading companies or CAC for it.”
I think that is where opportunity lies .
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@jmlanzaf said:
I had a friend who grew to dislike slabs and auction archives. He said it leveled the playing field with people who had less experience and knowledge. Prior to the internet and slabs, you could profit from your eye and your accumulated knowledge of the market. Now, 90% of the time you read the slab and search auction archives.
This (it leveled the playing field) is why some people don't like CAC. They probably won't say that out loud, though.
@pmh1nic said: My main point is collectors being willing to fork over huge premiums for a one point difference in grade (established by one person or a consensu of three really doesn't matter) demonstrates valuations are insane (my opinion). You have a beautiful MS-65 Saint Guaden's that you pay $x and one or two less contact marks in one location bumps the value up 5x? This isn't a question of can people spend their money as they please. They certainly are. I just question why those marks have become so important to justify that 5x premium.
People/Collectors pay up for quality in all aspects of life. Depending on ones financial means, along with supply and demand are the factors that each individual decides if paying up for that difference in quality is worth it to THEM. Paying up for a coin with a CAC is perfectly fine if that’s what that collector chooses to do.
My friends think I’m crazy for driving three hours from Palm Beach to Orlando, check into a hotel, go to dinner, then drive home three hours the next morning. The restaurant is Victoria & Albert’s, which a few years ago Trip Advisor ranked as the #2 Fine Dining Restaurant in the U.S. Having their seven course Tasting Menu, accompanied by a high scoring limited production boutique wine from my wine cellar is one of the things that gives me pleasure in life. I’m fortunate that I am in a position to afford that. What I’m NOT in a position to afford are mid five figure coins and higher, but there are many collectors who are. And good for them! I don’t begrudge them at all, or think they’re crazy for paying 5x more for that very special extra grading point. That’s what makes the world go round!
Let’s all be genuinely happy for others in their collecting pursuits if THEY are happy, whether it’s a collector completing a raw Lincoln Cent Whitman folder, or a person paying $18 million for a tremendous rarity! Thinking a collector is “crazy” or “insane” for paying a current valuation of 5x for an extra grading point is not being genuinely happy for them!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
Depending on ones financial means, along with supply and demand are the factors that each individual decides if paying up for that difference in quality is worth it to them.
Since CAC gives people who might otherwise be on the sidelines the assurance they need to jump into the game, demand for nicer coins increases. Unless the supply also increases, prices will rise. Some people don't like to see this happening.
“ I have been collecting British, with a big interest in the hammered coins and ancient Imperial Roman coins. A lot of those collectors don't like slabs at all, let alone slabs with stickers.”
I attend the NYINC every year . I went to a bourse table manned by a London coin firm who had raw British coins for sale .
I asked to look at a 20th century proof set .
He took the coins out of the the original holder and placed them on a felt pad on top of his coin case.
Problem was he grips the coins with his thumb and forefinger on the coin itself …not the rims . I kid you not .
“There is not much of anything that you can collect where the state of preservation does not matter. I don't need the approval of 100% of people. The trouble is when you have an outfit like CAC which has a huge amount of veto power over everything, your either knuckle under or leave.”
World coins are still a frontier of buying opportunities for raw coins but I think we’re in the 5th inning .
I think you have seen some my posts on the world and ancient forum .
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@winesteven said: @pmh1nic said: My main point is collectors being willing to fork over huge premiums for a one point difference in grade (established by one person or a consensu of three really doesn't matter) demonstrates valuations are insane (my opinion). You have a beautiful MS-65 Saint Guaden's that you pay $x and one or two less contact marks in one location bumps the value up 5x? This isn't a question of can people spend their money as they please. They certainly are. I just question why those marks have become so important to justify that 5x premium.
People/Collectors pay up for quality in all aspects of life. Depending on ones financial means, along with supply and demand are the factors that each individual decides if paying up for that difference in quality is worth it to THEM. Paying up for a coin with a CAC is perfectly fine if that’s what that collector chooses to do.
My friends think I’m crazy for driving three hours from Palm Beach to Orlando, check into a hotel, go to dinner, then drive home three hours the next morning. The restaurant is Victoria & Albert’s, which a few years ago Trip Advisor ranked as the #2 Fine Dining Restaurant in the U.S. Having their seven course Tasting Menu, accompanied by a high scoring limited production boutique wine from my wine cellar is one of the things that gives me pleasure in life. I’m fortunate that I am in a position to afford that. What I’m NOT in a position to afford are mid five figure coins and higher, but there are many collectors who are. And good for them! I don’t begrudge them at all, or think they’re crazy for paying 5x more for that very special extra grading point. That’s what makes the world go round!
Let’s all be genuinely happy for others in their collecting pursuits if THEY are happy, whether it’s a collector completing a raw Lincoln Cent Whitman folder, or a person paying $18 million for a tremendous rarity! Thinking a collector is “crazy” or “insane” for paying a current valuation of 5x for an extra grading point is not being genuinely happy for them!
Steve
Pay up for quality??? Tell me what increase in quality there is between an MS-65 and MS-66 coin or better yet a 68 and 69. I don't begrudge anyone for how they spend there money but that doesn't mean the question isn't a valid question. You should be able to articulate the reasons for the 5x premium.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@winesteven said:
Depending on ones financial means, along with supply and demand are the factors that each individual decides if paying up for that difference in quality is worth it to them.
Since CAC gives people who might otherwise be on the sidelines the assurance they need to jump into the game, demand for nicer coins increases. Unless the supply also increases, prices will rise. Some people don't like to see this happening.
I understand what you are saying. My issue is the need for that assurance rest in the significant premiums paid for minor differences in coins. Some will argue what is minor to some is major to another. I'd ask in the big picture why have those differences become major. I know the difference between a 65 and 66 or 66 and 67 coin. A 65 coin is going to have significant luster, very few marks any those will be minor, a very good strike. What is a step up from that? What are those things in the big picture, a very well preserved coin with excellent eye appeal and another very well preserved coin with excellent eye appeal and one less mark.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
You should be able to articulate the reasons for the 5x premium.
You need to ask the person who's paying the premium.
This is one of the premiere numismatic forums on the web. My posting is asking. I'll wait.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Wait as long as you need to. The only person who can answer for why they're willing to pay what they do is the person who writes the check. Unless, of course, you believe reading minds is a thing.
@pmh1nic said:
Pay up for quality??? Tell me what increase in quality there is between an MS-65 and MS-66 coin or better yet a 68 and 69. I don't begrudge anyone for how they spend there money but that doesn't mean the question isn't a valid question. You should be able to articulate the reasons for the 5x premium.
Yes, you’ve made it quite clear that you don’t understand why some people choose to pay up for an MS66 that cost 5x the cost of a “similar” looking MS65 (or MS69 instead of an MS68). While the TPG’s and CAC do make occasional errors, their experts in grading can indeed quantify those differences in quality. I find it sad that you can’t just be genuinely happy for those that choose to pay up for those differences, instead of being judgmental by thinking that the price differentials for these small quality increases is crazy or insane. For YOU, it very well is crazy, but please don’t impose your value system on others by thinking those differentials are crazy for everyone. They’re not.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
BTW, I've been involved in forum discussions for over 20 years. I'll speak my mind and be critical but try very hard not get personal or insulting. It's very easy to read into comments feelings and emotions that aren't there. I really am a live and let live person. If you challenge a viewpoint I have I don't interpret as an insult. I hope the opposite is also true. At the end of the day it's an opinion that has very little impact except to force me to think about why I view things the way I do.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Pay up for quality??? Tell me what increase in quality there is between an MS-65 and MS-66 coin or better yet a 68 and 69. I don't begrudge anyone for how they spend there money but that doesn't mean the question isn't a valid question. You should be able to articulate the reasons for the 5x premium.
Yes, you’ve made it quite clear that you don’t understand why some people choose to pay up for an MS66 that cost 5x the cost of a “similar” looking MS65 (or MS69 instead of an MS68). While the TPG’s and CAC do make occasional errors, their experts in grading can indeed quantify those differences in quality. I find it sad that you can’t just be genuinely happy for those that choose to pay up for those differences, instead of being judgmental by thinking that the price differentials for these small quality increases is crazy or insane.
My above post sorrt of addresses this but I'll respond.
This has nothing to do with happiness. No one owes me an explanation for why they buy what they buy. I read post and respond because I have an opinion and conveying my opinion in writing forces me to consider and reconsider why I have a certain opinion.
When it comes to coin grading there are certain criteria involved in assigning a particular grade. Asking someone to articulate what the differences are between a 65 and 66 or 66 and 67 isn't being judgemental. You would hope the person paying a 5x premium for those differences can explain what those differences are that justified in their mind paying the premium. We don't have to agree on whether paying the premium is justified (their money, their choice) but we should be able to agree on what those differences are.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Here’s an MS66+ graded by PCGS with a CAC from my Type Set. Believe me when I say the photos do not convey the true luster. Can you see a difference between this coin and coins graded MS66 (or MS65)? While the price difference here is far from 5x, my point is that there really are visible differences in coins with close but different grades, which is a big part of your question. So in cases where the price differential is indeed 5x for the extra point, that’s what some people will choose to pay for that visible difference, even though the difference is only slight! By the way, the current PCGS Retail value for an MS65 is $200, an MS66 is $600, and an MS66+ is $850 (4.25 x the MS65 price). Call me crazy or insane, but I’m glad I chose to pay up for this MS66+ graded by PCGS with a CAC! (For those that may not know, CAC ignores pluses, so the CAC on my coin only means in the opinion of CAC the coin is solid as a 66. They are NOT saying it’s solid as a 66+).
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
So in cases where the price differential is indeed 5x for the extra point, that’s what some people will choose to pay for that visible difference, even though the difference is only slight!
Something a "live and let live" person would have no problem with, even if it can't be explained.
@pmh1nic said:
You should be able to articulate the reasons for the 5x premium.
You need to ask the person who's paying the premium.
Perhaps some of our dealer friends could share this information with us. I truly have trouble understand the premium jumps from MS 66 to MS67 to MS 68 for Classic Commemorative coins. I know it's supply and demand.
The question is why?
@DisneyFan said:
Perhaps some of our dealer friends could share this information with us. I truly have trouble understanding the premium jumps from MS 66 to MS67 to MS 68 for Classic Commemorative coins.
I’m a collector and not a dealer, but here’s your answer - Supply and Demand!
Here’s a hotlink to my Classic Commem Silver Type Set:
@DisneyFan said:
Perhaps some of our dealer friends could share this information with us. I truly have trouble understanding the premium jumps from MS 66 to MS67 to MS 68 for Classic Commemorative coins.
I’m a collector and not a dealer, but here’s your answer - Supply and Demand!
Here’s a hotlink to my Classic Commem Silver Type Set:
@winesteven said:
Here’s an MS66+ graded by PCGS with a CAC from my Type Set. Believe me when I say the photos do not convey the true luster. Can you see a difference between this coin and coins graded MS66 (or MS65)? While the price difference here is far from 5x, my point is that there really are visible differences in coins with close but different grades, which is a big part of your question. So in cases where the price differential is indeed 5x for the extra point, that’s what some people will choose to pay for that visible difference, even though the difference is only slight! By the way, the current PCGS Retail value for an MS65 is $200, an MS66 is $600, and an MS66+ is $850 (4.25 x the MS65 price). Call me crazy or insane, but I’m glad I chose to pay up for this MS66+ graded by PCGS with a CAC! (For those that may not know, CAC ignores pluses, so the CAC on my coin only means in the opinion of CAC the coin is solid as a 66. They are NOT saying it’s solid as a 66+).
I'm not calling you crazy or insane. Again, it's your money to spent and it's a very nice example. That said you acknowledge that the differences are visible but slight. Here is a 65 Peace Dollar that recently sold in a Heritage auction for $234. It's another nice example and while it may not be quite as nice as the 66 I think it's a very good representative of the coin. Personally I won't pay a 2x premium for a one point difference in grade for any coin because those differences just aren't that important to me. Even the idea of paying a major premium because a coin is MS versus a nice AU-58 is not something I do. I'll overlook some rub to avoid a major premium if I can still can a nice representative, a coin without major distractions that are claring even seen with the naked eye, even though I enjoy looking at details with a 10x loop and my microscope.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I've been in a room with the best of the best in the business. I've seen when people were stumped on something and inevitably someone says, "go ask John". I've also seen him find something that others missed. A John Albanese "coin blessing" is just fine by me.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A very nice set! Mine is only in the MS65 range. And I do like nice coins. My question is what motivated you to reach for even higher grades?
I liked the look of the coins, and for my financial situation, I was comfortable financially and psychologically paying those higher prices to get those coins in those higher grades.
My answer to the question not asked: Why not wait and get coins one grade higher than what I got? The answer is in two parts - mainly, while it’s true I can afford to get coins another grade point higher, like @pmh1nic implies in his reply above, I’m just not psychologically comfortable spending that even higher amount for the next higher grade. Second, there are indeed several coins in my existing set where I do want coins in a higher grade (such as Gettysburg and Lynchburg). However, even though I’ve seen many dozens of coins in those higher grades, graded by PCGS, I will wait and be patient to pull the trigger only when the new coin has nicer eye appeal to me than the coin being replaced. I’m still waiting, lol. I learned from my mentors several years ago not to upgrade a coin if the coin being replaced has as nice or nicer eye appeal to me than the potentially new coin in the higher grade!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I'm not calling you crazy or insane. Again, it's your money to spent and it's a very nice example. That said you acknowledge that the differences are visible but slight. Here is a 65 Peace Dollar that recently sold in a Heritage auction for $234. It's another nice example and while it may not be quite as nice as the 66 I think it's a very good representative of the coin. Personally I won't pay a 2x premium for a one point difference in grade for any coin because those differences just aren't that important to me. Even the idea of paying a major premium because a coin is MS versus a nice AU-58 is not something I do. I'll overlook some rub to avoid a major premium if I can still can a nice representative, a coin without major distractions that are claring even seen with the naked eye, even though I enjoy looking at details with a 10x loop and my microscope.
We agree with each other 100% that it’s fine that we (and others) each choose to buy at the grade and price that we choose to buy. However, what confuses me, are your replies from earlier today. You indicated that it’s crazy (or insane) that in some cases the cost to get the next higher grade point is 5x. It’s not crazy! That’s the reality of the market, and to some people, the reality is they’re comfortable both financially and psychologically spending that 5x to get that slight increase in quality and rarity for that higher grade. This post has gone on and on because of your expressed difficulty in not coming to terms with that latter point.
If you disagree with my interpretation of what I think you said, I suggest you go back to read your earlier comments characterizing the price differentials that are 5x before replying again.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
While the TPG’s and CAC do make occasional errors, their experts in grading can indeed quantify those differences in quality.
There has been a change in leadership at PCGS so I hope this will be the end of luster grading.
About 2 years ago they started trying to grade like JA & I think that was a huge mistake.
I'm not talking about grade-flation either. People can't seem to figure out the difference & confuse them all the time.
CAC has way too much influence when they start dictating how a TPG grades.
Fingers crossed they return to preservation weighted grading.
@pmh1nic said:
You should be able to articulate the reasons for the 5x premium.
You need to ask the person who's paying the premium.
The answer is pretty simple: they want the best coin available. It is worth the 5x premium to them. That is all you need to know. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone but the person writing the check.
What is the finest known worth? Why should it be 10% more or 20% more? Why shouldn't it be 100x more if it is a pop 1? The market decides. The market has decided. Live with it. It's an opportunity for you to buy the lower grade bargain coin and think you're smarter.
In fact, you could actually ask the question the other way around: why is the 1 grade lower coin only worth 20% of the highest graded one? That MUST be a buying opportunity.
I'm not calling you crazy or insane. Again, it's your money to spent and it's a very nice example. That said you acknowledge that the differences are visible but slight. Here is a 65 Peace Dollar that recently sold in a Heritage auction for $234. It's another nice example and while it may not be quite as nice as the 66 I think it's a very good representative of the coin. Personally I won't pay a 2x premium for a one point difference in grade for any coin because those differences just aren't that important to me. Even the idea of paying a major premium because a coin is MS versus a nice AU-58 is not something I do. I'll overlook some rub to avoid a major premium if I can still can a nice representative, a coin without major distractions that are claring even seen with the naked eye, even though I enjoy looking at details with a 10x loop and my microscope.
We agree with each other 100% that it’s fine that we (and others) each choose to buy at the grade and price that we choose to buy. However, what confuses me, are your replies from earlier today. You indicated that it’s crazy (or insane) that in some cases the cost to get the next higher grade point is 5x. It’s not crazy! That’s the reality of the market, and to some people, the reality is they’re comfortable both financially and psychologically spending that 5x to get that slight increase in quality and rarity for that higher grade. This post has gone on and on because of your expressed difficulty in not coming to terms with that latter point.
If you disagree with my interpretation of what I think you said, I suggest you go back to read your earlier comments characterizing the price differentials that are 5x before replying again.
Steve
This is the salient point: FREE MARKET!
Why is an ultra common Morgan dollar EVER worth more than melt? To non-collectors, it seems insane to pay a $100 for an low end unc 1881-S when there's a million of them out there. Who would EVER pay more than face value for an ultra common Jefferson nickel? EVER.
Why would anyone sink money into coins when they could MAKE money buying real estate or stocks? Why would anyone EVER try to fill in a date/mint mark set when all the coins look the same except for the date? Why would anyone EVER pay a premium for a chemically oxidized coin when a bright white pristine one is available?
THE MARKET, THE MARKET, THE MARKET.
None of those choices are anything but FREE CHOICES.
@pmh1nic said:
Pay up for quality??? Tell me what increase in quality there is between an MS-65 and MS-66 coin or better yet a 68 and 69. I don't begrudge anyone for how they spend there money but that doesn't mean the question isn't a valid question. You should be able to articulate the reasons for the 5x premium.
Yes, you’ve made it quite clear that you don’t understand why some people choose to pay up for an MS66 that cost 5x the cost of a “similar” looking MS65 (or MS69 instead of an MS68). While the TPG’s and CAC do make occasional errors, their experts in grading can indeed quantify those differences in quality. I find it sad that you can’t just be genuinely happy for those that choose to pay up for those differences, instead of being judgmental by thinking that the price differentials for these small quality increases is crazy or insane.
My above post sorrt of addresses this but I'll respond.
This has nothing to do with happiness. No one owes me an explanation for why they buy what they buy. I read post and respond because I have an opinion and conveying my opinion in writing forces me to consider and reconsider why I have a certain opinion.
When it comes to coin grading there are certain criteria involved in assigning a particular grade. Asking someone to articulate what the differences are between a 65 and 66 or 66 and 67 isn't being judgemental. You would hope the person paying a 5x premium for those differences can explain what those differences are that justified in their mind paying the premium. We don't have to agree on whether paying the premium is justified (their money, their choice) but we should be able to agree on what those differences are.
@pmh1nic You seemed obsessed with people buying top graded coins at higher prices. You ask alot of questions. Please answer these questions:
1) why do you care how others spend their money?
2) do you care as much when someone pays more for ticket to an event than face value?
3) is it not permissible if a collector wants to have the very best coin even if that coin is only slightly better? Do you believe in a free market?
4) is it possible to pay 5x premium as u say for the top pop and still make a profit but lose money if you had pay for the next grade down?
5)does it bother you when someone else pays for a Mercedes when they could by a cheaper car that gets you to the same place?
6) why is it that it bothers you so much what others do with their money?
7) what if someone told you paying over face value for any coin did not make sense? Would you listen to them? Would it offend you if they kept insisting it?
8) do you consider yourself an equal grader compared to JA?
Just a few questions. Please answer I can determine the merit of your position. Thanks
For those who are interested, here is the reveal on the guess the grade I posted yesterday.
The first Monroe commemorative.
Grey Sheet bids on this piece for MS-67, no bean is $13,000. With the bean it's $17,000.
Here is the second piece.
This piece is PCGS graded MS-64. My wife bought it for me as a Christmas present in November 1998. The bid is $130 with no bean and $156 with it. I am will well under water on this one, not because of the grading but because of the melt-down in the prices for the "old" commemoratives in general.
If anything, this thread has convinced me that my decision to leave the U.S. coin market is a good one.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
For those who are interested, here is the reveal on the guess the grade I posted yesterday.
The first Monroe commemorative.
Grey Sheet bids on this piece for MS-67, no bean is $13,000. With the bean it's $17,000.
Here is the second piece.
This piece is PCGS graded MS-64. My wife bought it for me as a Christmas present in November 1998. The bid is $130 with no bean and $156 with it. I am will well under water on this one, not because of the grading but because of the melt-down in the prices for the "old" commemoratives in general.
If anything, this thread has convinced me that my decision to leave the U.S. coin market is a good one.
Interesting. I had them pegged as 65 and 66. I'm really surprised yours isn't a 65. Of course, that's the jump in value but those are usually so poorly struck. Yours really pops. Have you ever tried to upgrade it or CAC it? It might very well gold CAC. That coin in an old PCGS holder with a gold CAC would really jump in value in the current market.
@jmlanzaf said:
Why would anyone EVER try to fill in a date/mint mark set when all the coins look the same except for the date? Why
would anyone EVER pay a premium for a chemically oxidized coin when a bright white pristine one is available?
As mainly a Type Set collector that prefers highly lustrous bright white coins for my 20th Century silver so the coins look like the designers envisioned they would look as the coins come off the press, I ask myself those same two questions repeatedly, lol.
But I fully agree with your point - that's what makes the world go round - FREE CHOICE! And that's as it should be!!!!!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Interesting. I had them pegged as 65 and 66. I'm really surprised yours isn't a 65. Of course, that's the jump in value but those are usually so poorly struck. Yours really pops. Have you ever tried to upgrade it or CAC it? It might very well gold CAC. That coin in an old PCGS holder with a gold CAC would really jump in value in the current market.
The dealer from whom my wife purchased that coin cracked it out twice and tried to send it in for an up grade in 1998. It failed both times. I had one in my inventory that was slightly better than this one, also in an MS-64 holder, but I kept this one because it came from my wife.
If it made it to an MS-65 holder, the price goes to $480 / $620. If it goes to MS-66, which will never happen, it goes to $780 / $1,500. I'll think about that when it comes time to sell the whole collection. If I'm not out to sell it, why bother?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I'm not calling you crazy or insane. Again, it's your money to spent and it's a very nice example. That said you acknowledge that the differences are visible but slight. Here is a 65 Peace Dollar that recently sold in a Heritage auction for $234. It's another nice example and while it may not be quite as nice as the 66 I think it's a very good representative of the coin. Personally I won't pay a 2x premium for a one point difference in grade for any coin because those differences just aren't that important to me. Even the idea of paying a major premium because a coin is MS versus a nice AU-58 is not something I do. I'll overlook some rub to avoid a major premium if I can still can a nice representative, a coin without major distractions that are claring even seen with the naked eye, even though I enjoy looking at details with a 10x loop and my microscope.
We agree with each other 100% that it’s fine that we (and others) each choose to buy at the grade and price that we choose to buy. However, what confuses me, are your replies from earlier today. You indicated that it’s crazy (or insane) that in some cases the cost to get the next higher grade point is 5x. It’s not crazy! That’s the reality of the market, and to some people, the reality is they’re comfortable both financially and psychologically spending that 5x to get that slight increase in quality and rarity for that higher grade. This post has gone on and on because of your expressed difficulty in not coming to terms with that latter point.
If you disagree with my interpretation of what I think you said, I suggest you go back to read your earlier comments characterizing the price differentials that are 5x before replying again.
Steve
O.k., crazy or insane is hyperbole used to make a point not a medical evacuation. I could have used the words an excessive premium for minority differences. If you were offended or put off by the words crazy and insane I apologize.
But I think we understand each other. In part I think the issue is resources. You can be a JC Penny billionaire that will drive a 20 year old car or a Floyd Mayweather billionaire that drives a $3 million Bugatti. I’m more in the JC Penny side of my view in buying stuff.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
In fact, you could actually ask the question the other way around: why is the 1 grade lower coin only worth 20% of the highest graded one? That MUST be a buying opportunity.
And that's my concern! Ignore the debate about a MS69 versus a MS70. Are potential collectors thinking a coin one grade lower is not a meaningful coin? Let's talk about a MS 62 versus a MS 63 or MS 64. CAC of course.
Comments
That is not what you originally wrote. You mentioned one man's opinion of grade. No assigned grade is one man's opinion, ever.
Look at what you wrote which was in response to a statement about CAC. You can try and change your statement now, but it pretty clearly was originally a statement about CAC.
It's also irrelevant. Make it about 1 point in grade and it STILL isn't one man's opinion.
Take the L
Thanks for the clarification. I suspect this might be what Mark was talking about earlier, BTW.
Leave it @jmlanzaf to boost a thread count by 5 times it's previous daily average!
I like CAC. I especially admire its low overhead piggyback business model.
Carry on.
“I don’t like CAC because one man should not have that much influence over the entire U.S. coin market. He’s an expert, but he is not perfect. “
Bill it’s the “market” that apparently says he indeed has that much influence on the entire coin market .
Not the man himself . All he did was create a company.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Nothing to add. I just want to see how tiny the font will go.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I don't waste my time.
LOL. I don't think I was the one pushing this thread count.
This shows that it’s over. For thinking people the U.S. coin market is dead. You say you hide behind “the market.” No you hide behind CAC and the man who runs runs it.
Not that you want advice from me, but when you make statements like “For thinking people the U.S. coin market is dead.”, you then drastically reduce your own credibility for everything else you say!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
The choir continues to sing and circle the wagons. You win. I am mostly done with U.S. coins.
And I think Bill's point is the market has gone crazy.
My main point is collectors being willing to fork over huge premiums for a one point difference in grade (established by one person or a consensu of three really doesn't matter) demonstrates valuations are insane (my opinion). You have a beautiful MS-65 Saint Guaden's that you pay $x and one or two less contact marks in one location bumps the value up 5x? This isn't a question of can people spend their money as they please. They certainly are. I just question why those marks have become so important to justify that 5x premium.
To use the rocket science analogy, if I'm sending a rocket from here to Mars and my trajectory is off by 1 degree the project is a failure (probably a lot less than 1 degree). Absent the outrageous premiums what have I missed in having a 66 versus a 65? The tpg companies and CAC aren't the problem. Collectors created a need and they stepped in to fill it.
I just think this is unnecessarily insulting to people who like CAC.
It's not either/or. I'm quite comfortable buying raw coins. That doesn't mean that I don't also buy slabbed coins. And my slabs come with and without CAC.
Does that make me a thinking man or a non-thinking man?
I had a friend who grew to dislike slabs and auction archives. He said it leveled the playing field with people who had less experience and knowledge. Prior to the internet and slabs, you could profit from your eye and your accumulated knowledge of the market. Now, 90% of the time you read the slab and search auction archives.
He wasn't wrong. But you could also argue that grocery stores lowered the mating advantages of people who could hunt and fish. It's progress.
When I needed a new garbage disposal, I watched a 30 minute video on YouTube and did it myself. Plumbers probably hate the internet.
There's a lot of modernity that I dislike. But you adjust and move on. Word processors completely eliminated secretaries. Grading companies decrease the need to have a professional eye. That's not a completely bad thing.
“The same also goes for owners of ungraded coins, who feel they need to get them graded. In each case, they “risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers.” It’s a fact of numismatic life, but I don’t blame the grading companies or CAC for it.”
I think that is where opportunity lies .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
This (it leveled the playing field) is why some people don't like CAC. They probably won't say that out loud, though.
@pmh1nic said:
My main point is collectors being willing to fork over huge premiums for a one point difference in grade (established by one person or a consensu of three really doesn't matter) demonstrates valuations are insane (my opinion). You have a beautiful MS-65 Saint Guaden's that you pay $x and one or two less contact marks in one location bumps the value up 5x? This isn't a question of can people spend their money as they please. They certainly are. I just question why those marks have become so important to justify that 5x premium.
People/Collectors pay up for quality in all aspects of life. Depending on ones financial means, along with supply and demand are the factors that each individual decides if paying up for that difference in quality is worth it to THEM. Paying up for a coin with a CAC is perfectly fine if that’s what that collector chooses to do.
My friends think I’m crazy for driving three hours from Palm Beach to Orlando, check into a hotel, go to dinner, then drive home three hours the next morning. The restaurant is Victoria & Albert’s, which a few years ago Trip Advisor ranked as the #2 Fine Dining Restaurant in the U.S. Having their seven course Tasting Menu, accompanied by a high scoring limited production boutique wine from my wine cellar is one of the things that gives me pleasure in life. I’m fortunate that I am in a position to afford that. What I’m NOT in a position to afford are mid five figure coins and higher, but there are many collectors who are. And good for them! I don’t begrudge them at all, or think they’re crazy for paying 5x more for that very special extra grading point. That’s what makes the world go round!
Let’s all be genuinely happy for others in their collecting pursuits if THEY are happy, whether it’s a collector completing a raw Lincoln Cent Whitman folder, or a person paying $18 million for a tremendous rarity! Thinking a collector is “crazy” or “insane” for paying a current valuation of 5x for an extra grading point is not being genuinely happy for them!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Since CAC gives people who might otherwise be on the sidelines the assurance they need to jump into the game, demand for nicer coins increases. Unless the supply also increases, prices will rise. Some people don't like to see this happening.
“ I have been collecting British, with a big interest in the hammered coins and ancient Imperial Roman coins. A lot of those collectors don't like slabs at all, let alone slabs with stickers.”
I attend the NYINC every year . I went to a bourse table manned by a London coin firm who had raw British coins for sale .
I asked to look at a 20th century proof set .
He took the coins out of the the original holder and placed them on a felt pad on top of his coin case.
Problem was he grips the coins with his thumb and forefinger on the coin itself …not the rims . I kid you not .
“There is not much of anything that you can collect where the state of preservation does not matter. I don't need the approval of 100% of people. The trouble is when you have an outfit like CAC which has a huge amount of veto power over everything, your either knuckle under or leave.”
World coins are still a frontier of buying opportunities for raw coins but I think we’re in the 5th inning .
I think you have seen some my posts on the world and ancient forum .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
With all this absurdity in the US sector your sentiments make sense. I'm about ready to follow suit.
Who would have ever thought that making it practical for more people to get involved in coin collecting would be a problem?
Pay up for quality??? Tell me what increase in quality there is between an MS-65 and MS-66 coin or better yet a 68 and 69. I don't begrudge anyone for how they spend there money but that doesn't mean the question isn't a valid question. You should be able to articulate the reasons for the 5x premium.
You need to ask the person who's paying the premium.
I understand what you are saying. My issue is the need for that assurance rest in the significant premiums paid for minor differences in coins. Some will argue what is minor to some is major to another. I'd ask in the big picture why have those differences become major. I know the difference between a 65 and 66 or 66 and 67 coin. A 65 coin is going to have significant luster, very few marks any those will be minor, a very good strike. What is a step up from that? What are those things in the big picture, a very well preserved coin with excellent eye appeal and another very well preserved coin with excellent eye appeal and one less mark.
This is one of the premiere numismatic forums on the web. My posting is asking. I'll wait.
Wait as long as you need to. The only person who can answer for why they're willing to pay what they do is the person who writes the check. Unless, of course, you believe reading minds is a thing.
Yes, you’ve made it quite clear that you don’t understand why some people choose to pay up for an MS66 that cost 5x the cost of a “similar” looking MS65 (or MS69 instead of an MS68). While the TPG’s and CAC do make occasional errors, their experts in grading can indeed quantify those differences in quality. I find it sad that you can’t just be genuinely happy for those that choose to pay up for those differences, instead of being judgmental by thinking that the price differentials for these small quality increases is crazy or insane. For YOU, it very well is crazy, but please don’t impose your value system on others by thinking those differentials are crazy for everyone. They’re not.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
BTW, I've been involved in forum discussions for over 20 years. I'll speak my mind and be critical but try very hard not get personal or insulting. It's very easy to read into comments feelings and emotions that aren't there. I really am a live and let live person. If you challenge a viewpoint I have I don't interpret as an insult. I hope the opposite is also true. At the end of the day it's an opinion that has very little impact except to force me to think about why I view things the way I do.
My above post sorrt of addresses this but I'll respond.
This has nothing to do with happiness. No one owes me an explanation for why they buy what they buy. I read post and respond because I have an opinion and conveying my opinion in writing forces me to consider and reconsider why I have a certain opinion.
When it comes to coin grading there are certain criteria involved in assigning a particular grade. Asking someone to articulate what the differences are between a 65 and 66 or 66 and 67 isn't being judgemental. You would hope the person paying a 5x premium for those differences can explain what those differences are that justified in their mind paying the premium. We don't have to agree on whether paying the premium is justified (their money, their choice) but we should be able to agree on what those differences are.
Here’s an MS66+ graded by PCGS with a CAC from my Type Set. Believe me when I say the photos do not convey the true luster. Can you see a difference between this coin and coins graded MS66 (or MS65)? While the price difference here is far from 5x, my point is that there really are visible differences in coins with close but different grades, which is a big part of your question. So in cases where the price differential is indeed 5x for the extra point, that’s what some people will choose to pay for that visible difference, even though the difference is only slight! By the way, the current PCGS Retail value for an MS65 is $200, an MS66 is $600, and an MS66+ is $850 (4.25 x the MS65 price). Call me crazy or insane, but I’m glad I chose to pay up for this MS66+ graded by PCGS with a CAC! (For those that may not know, CAC ignores pluses, so the CAC on my coin only means in the opinion of CAC the coin is solid as a 66. They are NOT saying it’s solid as a 66+).
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Something a "live and let live" person would have no problem with, even if it can't be explained.
Perhaps some of our dealer friends could share this information with us. I truly have trouble understand the premium jumps from MS 66 to MS67 to MS 68 for Classic Commemorative coins. I know it's supply and demand.
The question is why?
Dealers aren't paying those premiums- their customers are. Ask them.
edited to add... I sell coins on eBay, so I'm something of a dealer. I don't have the first clue why people choose to pay what they do.
I’m a collector and not a dealer, but here’s your answer - Supply and Demand!
Here’s a hotlink to my Classic Commem Silver Type Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/commemoratives/commemoratives-major-sets/silver-commemoratives-50-piece-type-set-circulation-strikes-1892-1954/publishedset/189058
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
A very nice set! Mine is only in the MS65 range. And I do like nice coins. My question is what motivated you to reach for even higher grades?
I'm not calling you crazy or insane. Again, it's your money to spent and it's a very nice example. That said you acknowledge that the differences are visible but slight. Here is a 65 Peace Dollar that recently sold in a Heritage auction for $234. It's another nice example and while it may not be quite as nice as the 66 I think it's a very good representative of the coin. Personally I won't pay a 2x premium for a one point difference in grade for any coin because those differences just aren't that important to me. Even the idea of paying a major premium because a coin is MS versus a nice AU-58 is not something I do. I'll overlook some rub to avoid a major premium if I can still can a nice representative, a coin without major distractions that are claring even seen with the naked eye, even though I enjoy looking at details with a 10x loop and my microscope.
I've been in a room with the best of the best in the business. I've seen when people were stumped on something and inevitably someone says, "go ask John". I've also seen him find something that others missed. A John Albanese "coin blessing" is just fine by me.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I liked the look of the coins, and for my financial situation, I was comfortable financially and psychologically paying those higher prices to get those coins in those higher grades.
My answer to the question not asked: Why not wait and get coins one grade higher than what I got? The answer is in two parts - mainly, while it’s true I can afford to get coins another grade point higher, like @pmh1nic implies in his reply above, I’m just not psychologically comfortable spending that even higher amount for the next higher grade. Second, there are indeed several coins in my existing set where I do want coins in a higher grade (such as Gettysburg and Lynchburg). However, even though I’ve seen many dozens of coins in those higher grades, graded by PCGS, I will wait and be patient to pull the trigger only when the new coin has nicer eye appeal to me than the coin being replaced. I’m still waiting, lol. I learned from my mentors several years ago not to upgrade a coin if the coin being replaced has as nice or nicer eye appeal to me than the potentially new coin in the higher grade!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
We agree with each other 100% that it’s fine that we (and others) each choose to buy at the grade and price that we choose to buy. However, what confuses me, are your replies from earlier today. You indicated that it’s crazy (or insane) that in some cases the cost to get the next higher grade point is 5x. It’s not crazy! That’s the reality of the market, and to some people, the reality is they’re comfortable both financially and psychologically spending that 5x to get that slight increase in quality and rarity for that higher grade. This post has gone on and on because of your expressed difficulty in not coming to terms with that latter point.
If you disagree with my interpretation of what I think you said, I suggest you go back to read your earlier comments characterizing the price differentials that are 5x before replying again.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
There has been a change in leadership at PCGS so I hope this will be the end of luster grading.
About 2 years ago they started trying to grade like JA & I think that was a huge mistake.
I'm not talking about grade-flation either. People can't seem to figure out the difference & confuse them all the time.
CAC has way too much influence when they start dictating how a TPG grades.
Fingers crossed they return to preservation weighted grading.
My Saint Set
The answer is pretty simple: they want the best coin available. It is worth the 5x premium to them. That is all you need to know. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone but the person writing the check.
What is the finest known worth? Why should it be 10% more or 20% more? Why shouldn't it be 100x more if it is a pop 1? The market decides. The market has decided. Live with it. It's an opportunity for you to buy the lower grade bargain coin and think you're smarter.
In fact, you could actually ask the question the other way around: why is the 1 grade lower coin only worth 20% of the highest graded one? That MUST be a buying opportunity.
This is the salient point: FREE MARKET!
Why is an ultra common Morgan dollar EVER worth more than melt? To non-collectors, it seems insane to pay a $100 for an low end unc 1881-S when there's a million of them out there. Who would EVER pay more than face value for an ultra common Jefferson nickel? EVER.
Why would anyone sink money into coins when they could MAKE money buying real estate or stocks? Why would anyone EVER try to fill in a date/mint mark set when all the coins look the same except for the date? Why would anyone EVER pay a premium for a chemically oxidized coin when a bright white pristine one is available?
THE MARKET, THE MARKET, THE MARKET.
None of those choices are anything but FREE CHOICES.
@pmh1nic You seemed obsessed with people buying top graded coins at higher prices. You ask alot of questions. Please answer these questions:
1) why do you care how others spend their money?
2) do you care as much when someone pays more for ticket to an event than face value?
3) is it not permissible if a collector wants to have the very best coin even if that coin is only slightly better? Do you believe in a free market?
4) is it possible to pay 5x premium as u say for the top pop and still make a profit but lose money if you had pay for the next grade down?
5)does it bother you when someone else pays for a Mercedes when they could by a cheaper car that gets you to the same place?
6) why is it that it bothers you so much what others do with their money?
7) what if someone told you paying over face value for any coin did not make sense? Would you listen to them? Would it offend you if they kept insisting it?
8) do you consider yourself an equal grader compared to JA?
Just a few questions. Please answer I can determine the merit of your position. Thanks
For those who are interested, here is the reveal on the guess the grade I posted yesterday.
The first Monroe commemorative.
Grey Sheet bids on this piece for MS-67, no bean is $13,000. With the bean it's $17,000.
Here is the second piece.
This piece is PCGS graded MS-64. My wife bought it for me as a Christmas present in November 1998. The bid is $130 with no bean and $156 with it. I am will well under water on this one, not because of the grading but because of the melt-down in the prices for the "old" commemoratives in general.
If anything, this thread has convinced me that my decision to leave the U.S. coin market is a good one.
Interesting. I had them pegged as 65 and 66. I'm really surprised yours isn't a 65. Of course, that's the jump in value but those are usually so poorly struck. Yours really pops. Have you ever tried to upgrade it or CAC it? It might very well gold CAC. That coin in an old PCGS holder with a gold CAC would really jump in value in the current market.
As mainly a Type Set collector that prefers highly lustrous bright white coins for my 20th Century silver so the coins look like the designers envisioned they would look as the coins come off the press, I ask myself those same two questions repeatedly, lol.
But I fully agree with your point - that's what makes the world go round - FREE CHOICE! And that's as it should be!!!!!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
The dealer from whom my wife purchased that coin cracked it out twice and tried to send it in for an up grade in 1998. It failed both times. I had one in my inventory that was slightly better than this one, also in an MS-64 holder, but I kept this one because it came from my wife.
If it made it to an MS-65 holder, the price goes to $480 / $620. If it goes to MS-66, which will never happen, it goes to $780 / $1,500. I'll think about that when it comes time to sell the whole collection. If I'm not out to sell it, why bother?
I just read this thread while on the toilet. Had to call EMS to pry me off the seat plus I had to learn to walk again.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
O.k., crazy or insane is hyperbole used to make a point not a medical evacuation. I could have used the words an excessive premium for minority differences. If you were offended or put off by the words crazy and insane I apologize.
But I think we understand each other. In part I think the issue is resources. You can be a JC Penny billionaire that will drive a 20 year old car or a Floyd Mayweather billionaire that drives a $3 million Bugatti. I’m more in the JC Penny side of my view in buying stuff.
And that's my concern! Ignore the debate about a MS69 versus a MS70. Are potential collectors thinking a coin one grade lower is not a meaningful coin? Let's talk about a MS 62 versus a MS 63 or MS 64. CAC of course.